Indian Military Helicopters

[salaam]

Indian Navy inducts in-house ships with radars but no SAMs, sonars but no torpedo and ships with hangers but no choppers. But they do induct those and gradually add everything to it.

LCH weapon suite is already operationalized on ALH Rudra. What's wrong in placing some firm orders, is HAL gonna run away with that money?

I was under the impression that LCH was already on order. Wiki page states the following numbers are on order:
- Indian Air Force (65 on order)
- Indian Army (114 on order)

Wiki page refers to this pdf (page 18)

Obviously the numbers quoted in the pdf may be wrong too.

[JayS]

This:

We have launched a limited series production, with a confidence and hope that we get definite orders on this

Sorry for being Sheldon Cooper, I understood which part you were referring to. But why exactly you don't like it??

[Kashi]

Sorry for being Sheldon Cooper, I understood which part you were referring to. But why exactly you don't like it??

That HAL has no "definite orders" for LCH is concerning. Why no "definite orders" from IA and IAF? If there were "definite orders", HAL chairman would have said as much.

[rohiths]

Till there is a change in incentives for Army and Airforce new orders will never come. They are only interested in imported maal. I will be willing to bet that a new heli tender is on the way

[JayS]

Order is assured 99%. I am told HAL would not go ahead with such plans unless they have at least verbal confirmation of orders. My point is not surety of order, but lack of alacrity. Why wait for orders any more?? It should have been signed by now. I hate the apathy or even antipathy sometimes, shown to desi products, even to those who seem to be fairing quite well.

[rkhanna]

Supposedly Ecuador is putting its three remaining Dhruvs up for sale.

http://quwa.org/2016/10/24/ecuadorian-a ... licopters/

[shiv]

Sorry for being Sheldon Cooper, I understood which part you were referring to. But why exactly you don't like it??

That HAL has no "definite orders" for LCH is concerning. Why no "definite orders" from IA and IAF? If there were "definite orders", HAL chairman would have said as much.

Exactly. There is nothing "definite" about the HAL MD's comments in 2 separate interviews. I was unhappy about his body language and in fact language itself.

Too many vague references to "weapons will be integrated depending on end user requirement". No "surety" or confidence that would make him say "We are now integrating XXX for a customer/Indian army.

Frankly I don't like the sound of it one bit and will wait for better sounding news.

[Prem]

Mi-25s supplied by India prevented further deterioration of security: Ghani
( A Squadron of LCH will do wonder for them)
http://www.khaama.com/mi-25s-supplied-b ... hani-02195

The Afghan President Mohammad Ashraf Ghani said Tuesday that the Mi-25s supplied by India prevented further deterioration of the security situation of the country.Speaking during a joint conference of the leadership of security institutions, President Ghani said “The situation could further deteriorate if the Mi-25s supplied by India would not arrive on time.”The Afghan Air Force received 3 of the 4 Mi-25 gunship helicopters late in the month of December last year which coincided with Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Afghanistan.The Indian sources earlier said India is preparing the fourth gunship helicopter for the delivery to the Afghan armed forces and hope hope that the delivery will be done in the near future.“The fourth helicopter is yet to be transferred. It needs spares before it can be made fully operational and the spares have to come from Russia,” diplomatic sources said.According to reports, the four helicopters were taken from the inventory of the Indian Air Force (IAF) at the Air Force station in Pathankot.

[Khalsa]

I hope to god we give them another 4 of the same.
More room for the LCH.

[Gyan]

These machines, Mi-25/35 are supposed to kill Pakis, what difference does it make, if Afghans press the button? On a side issue, is USA not arming Afghan Air Arm with helos?

[Manish_P]

Even better if the Aghans kill the Pakis with LCH bought from India with money provided by the US

[Bart S]

Even better if the Aghans kill the Pakis with LCH bought from India with money provided by the US

All in good time. The Afghans needed the helicopters as of yesterday and the TaliPakis aren't going to wait for LCH production to start in numbers and the MOD and IFS bureaucracy to overcome their inertia and approve exports before attacking.

[Manish_P]

The Afghans needed the helicopters as of yesterday

And we don't ?

OK fine... let Khan, who is so far only mouthing platitudes for our support to afghan democracy, foot the bill for the Russian helicopters which we are giving the afghans.. let our MOD use it to help buy more helicopters (US, Russian or Indian) for us or fund some development program

[rohiths]

Till there is a change in incentives for Army and Airforce new orders will never come. They are only interested in imported maal. I will be willing to bet that a new heli tender is on the way

As I had suspected earlier there will be additional Apache orders.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/11/ ... aches.html

[Pratyush]

Good bye LCH. it was nice knowing you . While you were in the womb . You will never do what you were meant to do.

[rohitvats]

Self-deleted.

[JayS]

This new buy for apache was expected since long. And it should not have any effect on the expected order of 170+ for LCH, I think.

[rohitvats]

This new buy for apache was expected since long. And it should not have any effect on the expected order of 170+ for LCH, I think.

If it is of any help.

http://in.reuters.com/article/india-usa ... OW20140807 From August 2014.

India has offered a follow-on order of 39 AH-64D Apache helicopters in addition to the 22 now being negotiated, a Defence Ministry official said. The sides have been wrangling over the price of the gunships, however, with the initial deal having been estimated to be worth $1.4 billion.

[JayS]

This new buy for apache was expected since long. And it should not have any effect on the expected order of 170+ for LCH, I think.

If it is of any help.

http://in.reuters.com/article/india-usa ... OW20140807 From August 2014.

India has offered a follow-on order of 39 AH-64D Apache helicopters in addition to the 22 now being negotiated, a Defence Ministry official said. The sides have been wrangling over the price of the gunships, however, with the initial deal having been estimated to be worth $1.4 billion.

I am aware of this one. Thus I said, it was expected. I am told Apache is because we want to have experience on Heavy gunship. Now I am not informed enough to comment on this one. But may be you can throw some light on this??

[Pratyush]

This new buy for apache was expected since long. And it should not have any effect on the expected order of 170+ for LCH, I think.

Just as the T 90 was not expected to kill the Arjuna.

[rohitvats]

I am aware of this one. Thus I said, it was expected. I am told Apache is because we want to have experience on Heavy gunship. Now I am not informed enough to comment on this one. But may be you can throw some light on this??

- At present, we've two helicopter gunship squadrons. Both are operated by the IAF but are under the operational control of the army. These work with respective Corps they've been assigned to. Even Army Aviation Corps (AAC) pilots are assigned to these squadrons.

- IA has been clamoring since ages for these to be transferred completely to it in entirety because it creates lot of issues.

- Somewhere in 2012, a decision was taken for IA to also have its own helicopter gunships.

- Replacement of Mi-25/35 was long awaited. When the AH-64 opportunity opened up, we'd the face-off between AH-64 and Russian Mi-28N. Which AH-64 won.

- The first order for AH-64 for 22 helicopters is expected to go towards replacing the Hinds from service. AFAIK, a typical squadron has 10 a/c on strength. Deejay can share more accurate number.

- The 39 units ordered for army will go towards equipping a squadron each for the three Strike Corps.

- What happens to IAF's AH-64? That is a million dollar question - They could end up augmenting IA's fleet and work closely with IA ground troops. As well as undertake independent missions. What these independent missions could be, I don't know.

- IA's perspective plan for its AAC calls for an Combat Aviation Brigade under each Corps. the concept has already been tried. This will have a mix of reconnaissance, support, attack and utility helicopters.

- Reconnaissance will comes from ULH+Ka-226, Utility from ALH and attack will be a mix of WSI-Dhruv + Light Combat Helicopter.

- Between 70-80 WSI-Dhruv have been planned while 114 LCH are expected. First squadron of WSI-Dhruv has been raised (as of 2013 IIRC). Need to check production run at HAL for more orders.

- BTW, IA wants a mid-level utility helicopter as well on the line of Mi-17V5. But IAF does not want to part with it.

- IA's plan for organic lift calls for Company level lift capability at Corps level, battalion at Command level and a Brigade at AHQ level.

[tsarkar]

- What happens to IAF's AH-64? That is a million dollar question - They could end up augmenting IA's fleet and work closely with IA ground troops. As well as undertake independent missions. What these independent missions could be, I don't know.

SEAD like GW-1 taking out Pakistani Siemens SILLACS MPDR 45/E like the one deployed here flying low and fast under radar coverage

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2009 ... force.html

Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 12,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding, snow-clad Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots.

The other mission is CSAR in contested environments.

From the earlier link

The Boeing-Tata manufacturing joint venture that’s coming up in Hyderabad will deliver the first Indian-built Apache fuselage in 2018, and will service standing orders for at least 200 new airframes for Boeing’s customers around the world. When ready, it will be the world’s sole global supplier of Apache fuselages. Boeing is also believed to be looking to actively expand its supplier base in India, so it’s likely that the ‘Make in India’ component of finished AH-64s could step incrementally up over the next decade.

[chola]

The Apache expansion doesn't affect the LCH. It was a long planned option and the Apache occupies a different class of machine anyways (unlike ths single-engine RFI and LCA.)

That said, the wording where HAL is "hoping" for orders after weapons testing is indeed highly distressing after hearing repeatedly that there are 114 ordered. Though I always viewed that large number with suspicion when has the IA/IAF ever ordered such large numbers -- when an aircraft was in prototype stage?

[Indranil]

I also don't think that AH-64 will hamper LCH's chances. But what was the real need? I really cannot find any. Can anybody draw me a combat situation where 2 LCH's cannot carry out the same operation as one AH-64. Costs and payloads are the same. LCH pilots have been categorical in saying that LCH's high altitude flying capabilities is unmatched by any helicopter in the world. So high altitude scenarios are definitely out.

[chola]

The Apache is a frontline heavy attack copter, heavily armed and armored intended for action against heavily armed armor/mobile divisions.

The LCH is analogous to the AH-1 Cobra in American sevice. That is the light attack role for infantry support against less well defended targets as well as COIN. The Cobra was developed from a light utility copter just like the LCH was.

[Indranil]

The Apache is a frontline heavy attack copter, heavily armed and armored intended for action against heavily armed armor/mobile divisions.

What the hell does that mean? LCH cockpit has level of armour protection as the AH-64.

[JayS]

I also don't think that AH-64 will hamper LCH's chances. But what was the real need? I really cannot find any. Can anybody draw me a combat situation where 2 LCH's cannot carry out the same operation as one AH-64. Costs and payloads are the same. LCH pilots have been categorical in saying that LCH's high altitude flying capabilities is unmatched by any helicopter in the world. So high altitude scenarios are definitely out.

I am aware of this one. Thus I said, it was expected. I am told Apache is because we want to have experience on Heavy gunship. Now I am not informed enough to comment on this one. But may be you can throw some light on this??

[Indranil]

Aren't our current gunships heavy?

[chola]

The Apache is a frontline heavy attack copter, heavily armed and armored intended for action against heavily armed armor/mobile divisions.

What the hell does that mean? LCH cockpit has level of armour protection as the AH-64.

It means you would use the Apache against defended targets that can fight back and the LCH against supply columns and insurgents.

There is no way in hell that the LCH would be as well armored as a craft that is twice as heavy. If that were possible then why the hell would anyone design heavyweight copters (or tanks)?

[nachiket]

What the hell does that mean? LCH cockpit has level of armour protection as the AH-64.

It means you would use the Apache against defended targets that can fight back and the LCH against supply columns and insurgents.

I'm sure the Apache's armor would keep it flying after a SAM hit.

[chola]

It means you would use the Apache against defended targets that can fight back and the LCH against supply columns and insurgents.

I'm sure the Apache's armor would keep it flying after a SAM hit.

Oh stop it, obviously there is a limit but a heavy copter can take and give far more than a light one. This is common sense and physics.

[nachiket]

Oh stop it, obviously there is a limit but a heavy copter can take and give far more than a light one. This is common sense and physics.

What should be common sense is that the only thing armor protects a helicopter against is small arms fire from the ground and perhaps AD guns to a limited extent. Now tell me, when you are attacking an armored/mechanized formation using ATGMs or rockets, what should you be worried about? Small arms fire, which cannot reach you kilometers away, or SAMs carried by organic AD batteries belonging to those formations? And why exactly is the LCH incapable of defending itself against them while the Apaches are?

[chola]

Oh stop it, obviously there is a limit but a heavy copter can take and give far more than a light one. This is common sense and physics.

What should be common sense is that the only thing armor protects a helicopter against is small arms fire from the ground and perhaps AD guns to a limited extent. Now tell me, when you are attacking an armored/mechanized formation using ATGMs or rockets, what should you be worried about? Small arms fire, which cannot reach you kilometers away, or SAMs carried by organic AD batteries belonging to those formations? And why exactly is the LCH incapable of defending itself against them while the Apaches are?

Now why are the US and Russia investing in heavies like the Apache or the Hind if a lightweight like the LCH or Cobra will do?

There is a role for each. Not every threat is a direct hit from a full fledge SAM. It could be AA or ground fire. It could be a fuse-lit MANPAD off to one side. Hits that would take down a light copter but not a heavy.

[Indranil]

There is no way in hell that the LCH would be as well armored as a craft that is twice as heavy. If that were possible then why the hell would anyone design heavyweight copters (or tanks)?

Oh! please don't feel. It is not that difficult to find out. I can give you the answer right now, but let us see you take the trouble take of actually finding out the level of protection that both helicopters employ and then let us talk. It is a good practice before posting.

By the way, a heavy helicopter need not be more heavily protected. It can have more fuel or payload carrying capability. AH-64 has more payload carrying capability in the plains than the LCH (and the reason I said AH-64 and two LCHs). But LCH's design point is for higher altitude performance, and believe it not LCH can carry more load than the AH-64 at really high altitudes. It is not magic. It is physics only. LCH pays a price elsewhere because it is optimized for high altitude warfare. I will leave it to you to find that out as well.

[Karthik S]

May be the Apaches will be used for western sector and the LCH for northern. But again our numbers are small, not big enough to actually make an impact.

[Bart S]

LCH and Apache are for different roles. One does not cancel out the other and it is simplistic to just compare them on the basis of armor or flight characteristics. The Apache had been out there for decades and has a proven weapons and sensor suite with most of the bugs worked out by now, besides the longbow radar puts it in a class of it's own. The LCH has it's own strengths biggest of which is that it is our platform, but it is just starting out. We need as many of both as we can get.

[Rakesh]

Indranil: why feed the troll?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement.

[rohitvats]

SEAD like GW-1 taking out Pakistani Siemens SILLACS MPDR 45/E like the one deployed here flying low and fast under radar coverage.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2009 ... force.html

Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 12,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding, snow-clad Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots.

The other mission is CSAR in contested environments.

<SNIP>

There is a very famous example of US Army Apaches being used in SEAD role in GW-1. And this example seems to be used as a template for what Apaches can do. Sure, if there is a similar situation to be obtained, Apaches can be used for this role. But the whole acquisition of an attack helicopter - whose primary role is anti-armor - cannot be justified only on this premise.

For example, how many such opportunities are likely to present themselves in case of Pakistan? Is it IAF's case that Apaches will be dedicated to this role? That would be a very narrow application of this machine. Same is the case for CSAR.

IMO, the desire of IAF to hold on to attack helicopters is more for retaining the units on its organization. Not that I've any problem with it. 22+39 = 61 Apaches presents a very formidable punch.

Along with 70-80 WSI-Dhruv and 114 LCH, we'll have an attack helicopter fleet next only to the big Khan.

[shiv]

^^Rohit Apaches can be used for SAR by tying 2 men with ropes on either side to go and rescue a downed pilot. If those men are carrying Berettas we can make those as well under licence in India

[Singha]

If all you need is to take out a radar best option is fire a kh59 kh31 or brahmos. Or later garuthma. All these too are under iaf thumb so no prestige issues therein.

Ods apache thing happened due no iraqi radar in desert and no iraqi air patrols. try that stunt over belarus or kaliningrad and see what happens....a big growly 9m96e will jump from behind a car and say Boo lol.

Even the us has become cautious about the apache these days. with high quality manpads and atgm sensors capable of tracking helicopters and anti heli tank rounds the gunship is vulnerable to well trained foes and they know it.

They are movng atgm shooter to 10000feet upward using reapers and ucavs

Apache for iaf is all about power and ownership not any real use case diffetent from rudra or lch