'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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nirav
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by nirav »

nirav wrote:Since HAL is having difficulties with Indian pvt players not willing to step up to be major players in LCA supply chain, GoI can put in a clause for the MII contract.

All pvt supply chain players vying for offsets for the MII project will have to get onboard LCAs supply chain. Disqualified from participating otherwise.
I would like to ask informed posters if such a condition is feasible/workable from an engineering and production and a financial standpoint.

If it is, we might as well make some noise outside of dhagaas in BRF and shoot up some petitions.
shiv
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by shiv »

JayS wrote:
Kartik wrote:"Load factor"
Gents, I am not trying to take sides but I was intrigued by the term "Load factor"

It seems to me (courtesy Googling) that load factor is the G force/lift that the plane can provide in a banking turn irrespective of size and weight of the plane.

A 9G load factor plane can bank at about 85 degrees while turning because 9G is what is needed to keep the plane flying at 85 degree bank (2G is at 60 degrees bank)

But there are 3 interconnected issues here
  • Stall speed increases with weight
    Stall speed increases with increasing angle of bank
    Increased speed always means increased radius of turn


What this means is that a minimum radius turn for a lighter aircraft will be tighter than that of a heavier one because the stall speed for the heavier one is higher independent of bank angle/load factor.

Unconnected with this, is the fact that climb rate correlates with power and weight. For the same power, climb rate will be higher for a lighter F-16 than a heavier one.

So no matter where the weight is placed the lighter F-16 will always out climb and out turn the heavier one +9G/-3G values notwithstanding
Last edited by shiv on 05 Nov 2016 17:49, edited 1 time in total.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Karan M »

Mihir wrote:Marten, may I respectfully suggest that real cognitive dissonance is when folks harp about the purported ridiculousness of HAL investing in increased production without firm orders, when it has been shown that HAL has done exactly that more than once, and that it is the standard worldwide?
HAL cannot do that unless IAF places firm orders because it will invite CAG censure and mean the HAL head honchos need MOD protection. Parrikar got 120 aircraft - only 80Mk1A out of a tightfisted IAF. MOF funding is limited and the MMRCA boondoggle is swallowing funds too. Bottomline, every player is looking out for his own perceived interests and national programs like the LCA suffer. Marten, JayS btw are spot on about orders and the supply chain limitations because of that. Many pvt suppliers are frustrated at how much they invested into the LCA snd only got piecemeal orders for parts because of limited tuns. Its really not understandable that the IAF hasnt overtly committed to Mk2 as well. AHQ planners dont seem to get industrial realities at all.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Karan M »

Agree JayS. Dont get cowed down into not posting. Keep speaking up.
JayS wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:BRF seems to have developed a serious case of information resistance. That is a real pity, because this is a fast developing picture, and there is a lot to be discussed beyond trying to find someone to blame for what is in reality a very exciting moment for India's aerospace industry.

Let's please try to move beyond the thought that this is to (a) kill Tejas or (b) because HAL is not doing well enough. I had a post two pages or so ago which goes into numbers, and I apologise if it did not register in collective consciousness by falling woefully short of the 500 word minimum. So some of the if you find some of the points below redundant or repetitive, please attribute it to a valiant and conscious effort to meet word count requirements.

(1) This buy is not intended in any way to kill Tejas or augment Tejas numbers. There is a genuine need in IAF for combat aircraft with longer ranges and payloads, plus an opportunity to actually enhance the attractiveness of the Tejas product. Think about this: we all agree a Tejas Mk II with 90-98 kN GE414IN will be hot stuff. So have you considered the possibility of what a Tejas MkII with a 110 kN GE414EPE of the same weight class will be like?

(2) This buy is not about CFTs or some such technical minutiae. It is pretty certain to be either LM or Boeing, but the actual platform almost does not matter. All this has been made clear by multiple number of people in a multiple number of articles. Note that it is not Grippen because then GE jet engine tech will be off the table, and it is not going to be the French because they screwed the pooch on the Rafale deal. With either LM or Boeing GE will be expected to offer some crown jewels, atleast for Make in India if not for transferring any know why. It is about the ecology and not just jet engine tech, but IMHO GE414EPE alone is worth all of this, for the possibilities it opens up vis a vis Naval Tejas, Tejas Mk II and AMCA. And I repeat again, this is not something that will be given out of goodness of heart. Fork out the money to make it worth the while for an American company, or try to develop something equivalent in 25 years when you want AMCA to acheive FOC.

(3) There may be the occasional instance of friction, but by and large, MoD/IAF/HAL/ADA have proven that they are on the same side. Much as gasbags would like to claim in media, there is quiet long term planning going on which is far sighted as well as pragmatic. It is hard for Indians to credit other Indians with any level of astuteness, but try to remove that filter and this will become plain to see. There is plenty of evidence waiting to be observed and evaluated, once the CT blinkers come off.

So apologies for the rant, and I will say it is not intended at any one single person. Attribute it to a chair marshal made cranky by following too much US politics. This is the one bright development to distract attention from what is otherwise an extremely depressing time, so please have mercy and recognize it as such. Celebrate that India and Indians have created a fantastic opportunity for themselves, and by all means give close scrutiny to every piece of information as it becomes available. But please, oh please, try to do something to reduce all this high pitched noise emanating from this thread!
Please don't beg to be noticed. Post something sensible and people will take notice. That post of yours was not very informative. No, AMCA and FGFA are not expected in early 2040's. And no IAF is not going to replace retiring medium weight aircrafts with LCA. Even the most ardent IAF supporters would accept that. And no, we will not get crown jewels of F414EPE. If you have read everything you would have noticed the main bone of contention from US side it amount of ToT. Its amply clear that they are not willing to give what Indians want. Both sides will have to compromise on this one.

And I am sorry to say this, but this post of yours reek of haughtiness. If you are a member of Cabinet committee and know it all, please tell so. Else stop acting like you are the only wise Sage here who can see through everything and rest all are stupid. Everyone here is as clueless as the other person, the whole point of discussion is to bring out different perspectives. Please enlighten us about those plentiful evidences which are ignored here.

I don't understand. why people are getting restless about this thread?? This thread makes exactly ZERO change in the situation. This discussion is only to satisfy personal egos or to gain perspective. Atleast I am learning new things here. There is no compulsion to come and read all posts here.

And BTW what is with this US politics haan ji?? What has it to do with all this?? Do you think everyone in the world cares so about US politics that they would get cranky by that??

However I agree that some posters need to put some more thoughts before posting their POV.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by JayS »

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
Gents, I am not trying to take sides but I was intrigued by the term "Load factor"

It seems to me (courtesy Googling) that load factor is the G force/lift that the plane can provide in a banking turn irrespective of size and weight of the plane.

A 9G load factor plane can bank at about 85 degrees while turning because 9G is what is needed to keep the plane flying at 85 degree bank (2G is at 60 degrees bank)

But there are 3 interconnected issues here
  • Stall speed increases with weight
    Stall speed increases with increasing angle of bank
    Increased speed always means increased radius of turn


What this means is that a minimum radius turn for a lighter aircraft will be tighter than that of a heavier one because the stall speed for the heavier one is higher independent of bank angle/load factor.

Unconnected with this climb rate correlates with power and weight. For the same power, climb rate will be higher for a lighter F-16 than a heavier one.

So no matter where the weight is placed the lighter F-16 will always out climb and out turn the heavier one +9G/-3G values notwithstanding
Brar_w already explained effect of extra fuel on performance in general so I didn't repeat these things which are fairly obvious. My point was always that F16 could not possibly take 9G turn with filled CFT.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by shiv »

JayS wrote: My point was always that F16 could not possibly take 9G turn with filled CFT.
The theory says that the heavier one can also turn at 9G, but the tightest turns will always be less tight than the lighter F-16s.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Gyan »

F-16 9.5 tons with wing area 300 sq feet. LCA 6.5 feet with wing area 400 sq feet. What does it say about maneuverability of F-16?
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by JayS »

nirav wrote:
nirav wrote:Since HAL is having difficulties with Indian pvt players not willing to step up to be major players in LCA supply chain, GoI can put in a clause for the MII contract.

All pvt supply chain players vying for offsets for the MII project will have to get onboard LCAs supply chain. Disqualified from participating otherwise.
I would like to ask informed posters if such a condition is feasible/workable from an engineering and production and a financial standpoint.

If it is, we might as well make some noise outside of dhagaas in BRF and shoot up some petitions.
This might be possible in some cases, however I believe this flies in the face of liberalisation of manufacturing that GOI is intending to do. Rather than forcing down things down the throat of pvt player, many of which are MSMEs, GOI should come up with a more organic strategy to provide what really is needed for supply chain to thrive.

At the very least I would suggest a more proactive approach - giving preference to those for MII/offset who are already participating in LCA or other programs and reward their hard work rather than doling out freebies to connected people like Chota Bhai.

Even if GOI gives on par treatment to domestic players as it gives to foreigners, that itself would be a great step. There are innumerable examples of suppliers with world class products but they cannot sell in domestic market. IIRC there have been cases where taxes on domestically made parts were higher than if those same parts were imported.

On related terms, what GOI needs to understand that it has the market power at its hands and it just needs to pool it and then negotiate based on that cumulative power. For example, why not pool all the programs that we have LCA/LCH/LUH/Ka226/AMCA and give assurances to suppliers for orders from all these programs if they are willing to come aboard. They can pick their favourite parts. And devise their own investment plans based on cumulative available business. Together its huge number, in isolations the numbers are less and each riddled with uncertainties of their own.

Add Civil airliner sector to that and we are talking of upwards of $300B market solely in Aerospace. Some of those suppliers can also take part in other defense related projects, add some more for that. All in all we could easily show a carrot of $500B for next 30-40yrs of sustained business for both domestic and international suppliers. there is enough for everyone. But GOI seems to be myopic on these issues and there is serious lack of comprehensive point of view. make no mistake, all these issues we face stem from this blinded policies of GOI ultimately.

What stops us from inviting Tier1 suppliers from West for LCA projects, if domestic players are not willing?? Suppliers are always more than willing to do screwdrivergiri as long as margin is good. There's Spirit Aerospace, GKN, MHI, IHI, MTU and many such companies. Why not bring them in and thereby not only kickstart industry but also retain system ownership..?? If offered easy terms, these companies could come in India. But you know what, they will need assurances by GOI for sustained business for long term and soft terms to set up business. And then obvious question arises, why not offer same terms for domestic players??
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by JayS »

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote: My point was always that F16 could not possibly take 9G turn with filled CFT.
The theory says that the heavier one can also turn at 9G, but the tightest turns will always be less tight than the lighter F-16s.
No theory Shiv, Specifically for F16 blk52+, in real life. I felt it to be absurd that LM would re-design F16 for carrying fully loaded CFT. I found enough data to show I was not off the mark.

Theoretically F16 could be designed to take full 9G turn at MTOW. Doesn't mean it will be designed so, let alone re-designed for block upgrade.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by shiv »

JayS wrote: No theory Shiv, Specifically for F16 blk52+, in real life. I felt it to be absurd that LM would re-design F16 for carrying fully loaded CFT. I found enough data to show I was not off the mark.
Maybe I should not make general off the cuff remarks about the IAF but I have stated before that the IAF is led by macho fighter jocks (and that I would like to see a few engineering buddhis up there). But we are talking about "MiG 21 replacements" in a situation where Tejas is unable to make up numbers.

Now I note that although Tejas has shown itself capable of being an attack aircraft - bombs, PGMs and self defence WVRAAMs, what the IAF wants is an air defender/interceptor. they want an AESA, self protection and BVRAAMs. If that is the requirement then the replacement aircraft (other than Tejas) should have all the hallmarks that a fighter jock would love and I suggest that if the F-16 is named - a version of the F-16 that is an agile AESA equipped interceptor should catch IAF attention more than a "DPSA". We have Jaguars for DPSA and Rafale's will do that and so will Su-30s. But point interceptors and CAPs would call for great climb rate and acceleration. If CFTs are there - I would remove them for this job. (Provided they gave me the job :oops: )
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Pratyush »

Man the thread moves real fast.

taking a page out of YI Patels book

Those who are saying that HAL has not been able to set up a pvt supplier ecosystem for the LCA. Are stupid and myopic and are completely lacking in business sense.

Their I said it. :P

Now, to move on.

I have the following questions to all those who are saying that eco system can be built in the absence of any orders or even any intention of orders.

Which bank will finance an expansion of a factory for a product that has only 20 confirm order with 20 options?
Which state will allocate land for expansion of a factory for a product that has only 20 confirm order with 20 options?
Which pvt sector businessman will in his right senses will even apply for a loan and land for a factory that has only 20 confirm order with 20 options?

Please answer the questions honestly?

And you will have arrived at the answer to the riddle of low production capability of HAL.

Having said so, depending on how quickly the order book is firmed up, production can be scaled up accordingly. But the orders will have to be substantial that will justify the investment in the necessary tools and machinery for the production of the sub systems and parts.

Another point of note is that given the materials of LCA, the choice of F 16 will kill any chance of LCA production being ramped up as the machinery will not suitable for carbon composite structures.

And if the order if for Grippen, Then no logical point in ordering the LCA.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:Agree JayS. Dont get cowed down into not posting. Keep speaking up.
Karan Saab: Nice to see you back in fighting from. The Battle of Kurukshetra is going in here and I could not find you. Bash on Regardless!
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Customary repetition as the thread moves fast :

With US C-17, C-130, P-8i, Apache, F-16 any Pressler type of sanctions will render so many of our platforms useless for decades...
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by JayS »

shiv wrote:
Maybe I should not make general off the cuff remarks about the IAF but I have stated before that the IAF is led by macho fighter jocks (and that I would like to see a few engineering buddhis up there). But we are talking about "MiG 21 replacements" in a situation where Tejas is unable to make up numbers.

Now I note that although Tejas has shown itself capable of being an attack aircraft - bombs, PGMs and self defence WVRAAMs, what the IAF wants is an air defender/interceptor. they want an AESA, self protection and BVRAAMs. If that is the requirement then the replacement aircraft (other than Tejas) should have all the hallmarks that a fighter jock would love and I suggest that if the F-16 is named - a version of the F-16 that is an agile AESA equipped interceptor should catch IAF attention more than a "DPSA". We have Jaguars for DPSA and Rafale's will do that and so will Su-30s. But point interceptors and CAPs would call for great climb rate and acceleration. If CFTs are there - I would remove them for this job. (Provided they gave me the job :oops: )
It makes all the sense for IAF to equip major fraction of the F16 fleet with CFT. On West border we can used F16 solely as bomb-trucks and the extended endurance for both A2G and A2A missions would be a boon on North border. Especially considering that F16 probably won't be taking off with full load from forward bases but from plains.

But this capability overlap is the real danger for LCA. It gives all the incentive for the "system" to scuttle LCA and supplant it fully with F16. As such beyond initial 120 (that too because its already promised) its very hard for LCA to make case vis-a-vis a domestically assembled F16 blk70. Someone with very strong emphasize on self-sufficiency at the top will have to keep rebutting these attempts for long time. And what I fear is the import-lobby will have an incentive to kill AMCA as well. Remember LCA is stepping stone, AMCA is the real deal as it would put us in the place where we could actually compete with the best in the business for 6th Gen technology. If I were US, I would want exactly that, inundate IAF with as much 4th Gen tech as it takes to scuttle India's 5th Gen development. Remember for US we are equally useful against China even with large number of 4th gen US fighters for some time to come. Later they can give us F35, while they progress to 6th Gen tech.

Even if this is unfounded fear or rant, I have a right, as a citizen, to demand assurances from GOI that it will do everything to keep going on with domestic development with enough funds given.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by ragupta »

Future is uncertain and no one can guarantee future, any assurance in this regard is meaningless or worth nothing.
Any nationalist govt will support indigenous capability.
The fact is that all projects LCA,IJT. HTT, Dhruv, LUH, LCH happened because of govt support and passed through worst time.
India is in much better shape now, because of support to all the prestigious org ISRO/DRDO/HAL etc.

There will not be any shortage of funds for national projects including LCA/AMCA, this is my persional opinion (MPO), which is worth nothing as well. I have more faith in this govt then all the past govt combined.

Now is the time to show capability, and create export market and become competitor.
- Dhruv/LCH/LUH productionize and export
- IJT productionize with local engine and export
- LCA productionize with GE engine, with Kaveri and export
- Work on AMCA, involve non-public sector as well, limited capability exists, because there was no opportunity.

The private sector involvement is must and govt is working towards it, why this fear, HAL is not enough for India. there is need to harness non public sector talent.

who things 8 LCA per year would be enough to build capability, even 16 would not be enough, LCA being the cheap and best 4.5 generation fighter in light category (MPO), it would have a large market, with the current capacity, local need will not be fulfilled, how about export?

There is a huge market and India can play a very important role, this fear and paranoia will lead to missing this bus.

F-16V even when produced locally will have veto from US to certain country, LCA with Kaveri will not, that is why I think $1B offset for Kaveri to be productionized is welcome news. For playing strategic game, LCA is must with Kaveri.

Risk is all over the place, take care with risk management. that is what the govt is doing...
Last edited by ragupta on 05 Nov 2016 22:54, edited 1 time in total.
ragupta
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by ragupta »

India maintained 2 source for Fighters
one was Russia and other was Western, which in our case was European.
what is happening to these future sources in term of technology
Russia: selling pretty much same technology to enemy, has 5th generation programme, product cost economical, lagging behind in some areas.
EU: no fifth generation project, costly because of low production, again lagging behind US in technology. Any future purchase will be component based, Rafale probably the last acquisition.

US: India avoided them for obvious reason in the past, but cutting edge product, lower cost due to volume of production. So India is just replacing the western source from EU to US, the only other source for 5th generation fighter.

There is no alternative to indigenous capability, but hard to be 100% indigenous, so design, integrate, create multiple sources for component and become strategically independent in the short term should be the goal for next 10 years.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by JayS »

A good article giving some snapshot of Aerospace industry overall and India-specific challenges. Though take it with a pinch of salt because the article tends towards marketing pitch in later half, and its not the whole picture either. Posting partial article.

http://www.nasscom.in/Aerospace-Supply- ... iers-55118
The aerospace industry continues to be challenged by increasing competition and cost pressures as well as rising energy costs, high raw material prices and a weak US Dollar. To combat these challenges, airframe manufacturers, aerospace OEMs and Tier 1 suppliers are leveraging the advantages arising from the globalization of the aerospace supply chain. They are adapting to these challenges by outsourcing more and more elements of technology, design and component/sub-assembly manufacture.

For the aerospace supply chain, this is an opportunity as well as a threat. It is an opportunity for those suppliers who can innovate, adopt high level technologies, implement best practices and invest in change – such suppliers will win larger amounts of work from their customers. Those suppliers who cannot do this, could find themselves removed from the airframe manufacturer/OEMs’ supply chain.

For the successful players, the coordination and integration of supply chain practices and processes are becoming increasingly important, and requires lots of attention. Traditionally the large aircraft manufacturer would define and specify exactly what their Tier 1 suppliers should produce for them The airframe manufacturers would do the total aircraft design, and give their suppliers detailed specifications and drawings for the manufacture of sub structures and sub systems. This is changing. Airframe manufacturers and Tier 1 suppliers have become large scale integrators (“super integrators”) and coordinators of airplane production. New strategies adopted by the aerospace industry to achieve this include greater dependence on Tier 1s, increased risk sharing by suppliers, adoption of low cost region suppliers, increased aero structures outsourcing, and an increased transparency in their aircraft program plans and schedules. RFPs are shared openly, and proposal making is more a joint process between customer and supplier. There is more focus on systems integration, less internal production capability, a desire to work with a lesser number of Tier I primes, and significant reduction in direct dealings with Tier 2 and Tier 3 suppliers (except when developing such suppliers in low cost regions like India). Some examples of this happening have been studied by management consulting company AeroStrategy (http://www.AeroStrategy.com) – they describe how Embraer had about 350 suppliers for their EMB 145 aircraft, of which 4 were risk sharing, compared to 38 suppliers for the EMB 170/190, of which 16 were risk sharing. Similarly, Rolls Royce had about 250 suppliers for their Trent 500 engine, which went down to 140 suppliers for the Trent 900, 75 suppliers for the Trent 1000, and it is estimated that there would be only around 25 to 35 suppliers for the engine being developed for the next generation single aisle/narrow body (the Boeing 737 RS or the Airbus NSR). (Note the consolidation happening in Supply chain in Aero Industry)

Airbus’s Power8 initiative, which aims to improve financial returns, reduce cycle times and increase overall efficiency, also incorporates changes in supply chain. Airbus has initiated plans to shift from seven, mostly national centers of excellence, to four transnational centers of excellence. Airbus senior management has publically stated that they are reshaping and consolidating their existing supply base, and building a network of strong Risk Sharing Partners to Tier 1 suppliers. For example, EADS’s E2S (Engineering Supplier Synergy) program reduced EADS’s more than 2000 engineering services suppliers, to just 28, of which 4 are from India. The aim is to turn Airbus into an extended enterprise, and it is expected that the A350 XWB will draw on this new business model, as Airbus assigns larger work packages to Tier 1 suppliers. Airbus has stated that about 50 per cent of aero structures work will be outsourced to risk-sharing partners, and this is expected to help address launch aid and political issues. (Note how OEMs want to offload risk by spreading initial investment among Tier-1 companies for technologically non-critical components)

Boeing’s 787 development is another example of leveraging a global supply chain, with aero structures work being done in Japan, larger amounts of fuselage work being outsourced to American aero structures Tier 1s, and avionics development and testing being outsourced to India through Boeing’s systems Tier 1 suppliers. (Its interesting to see how Japan got increasing share of Aero manufacturing for its companies through Civil Jet orders)

However, increased outsourcing gives rise to tensions and conflicts between established practices and the need to change these practices. Internal resistance to such changes, for various reasons ranging from perceived loss of job security (and thereby loss of income) to loss of control on the development process (and thereby loss of control on a program schedule) gives rise to conflicts. The recent strike by Boeing machinists is an example of such a conflict. Senior management in airframe manufacturer/OEM companies need to navigate these hurdles in order to successfully leverage global supply chains. One important message to give the existing employees in their organizations (substantiated with data, policy implementation proof, etc.) is that outsourcing work is good. For example, outsourcing would actually mean more job security for existing workers, since in periods of downturns, it would be the contractors/outsourced work that would be removed/stopped first, thus protecting the in-house workforce. In addition, information should be shared with the employees about the lack of younger aerospace engineers in the system, thereby creating the potential of a vacuum in aerospace engineering workforce when the existing workforce retires (this is a demographic shift that is causing major concern in the western world). Also, market information should be shared with them, showing the buying patterns of aircraft worldwide, and indicating the high growth areas. The logic used could go like this: India and China are buying the largest number of planes, and so these countries will play a larger role in the development of the planes, due to offset obligations and the need for airframe manufacturers to be seen as playing a significant role in the high-tech industrialization of these countries. (Sadly only China is taking benefits of this, India seems to be totally clueless) Lastly, argument has to be made that globalization of the supply chain would make the airframe manufacturer more competitive, and hence will enable more planes to be sold, and hence would help in the sustenance and growth of the company. But one must admit, it is far easier to expound the above arguments on paper, than it is to actually convince an existing employee base that globalization and outsourcing is good for most people concerned. The existing realities and relationships within an organization are much more complex, and it requires an imaginative and sensitive mind to be aware of the power plays and insecurities involved. Thus, suppliers need to be aware of this, and must take into account all of this when making a pitch for outsourcing. Also, it helps if in addition to the traditional stakeholders like Senior Management, Engineering and Procurement within an organization who get involved in outsourcing decision, the HR (Human Resources) department also gets involved. (Note some real life issues to be dealt with apart from technical challenges)

In the present competitive global market, major investments have to be made to enhance the innovative steps regarding design, technology and operations. These huge investments cannot be carried by airframe manufacturers alone. Therefore those high technology suppliers and Tier 1s who are able to invest in change are taken on board as risk-sharing partners with the airframe manufacture. (Which means if you wanna be tier1 company on global scale you need good mullah and design capabilities atleast in Aero-structures domain) This requires an organization-wide expansive learning process followed by development of a whole new network of next level (Tier 2/3) partners. It is a strategy that will involve major changes in aircraft production. The airframe manufacturer therefore will no longer tell the partners what to do. They will instead search the global market for the most capable and reliable suppliers as risk-sharing partners. The capacity of an aerospace supplier to appreciate, process and absorb external knowledge and learnings from past and present experiences, is important, when it comes to winning a position as a risk-sharing partner to an airframe manufacturer. As a result of globalization, airframe manufacturers and OEMs have a richer portfolio of supplier alternatives than earlier. Three key regions––East Asia (including China & India), Eastern Europe, and Latin America, are coming up as locations where labor intensive aerospace work can be done at lower costs. Aero structures work is increasingly viewed as non-core for aircraft OEMs. Most OEMs are not competitive in aero structures because of high labor costs and a broad array of suppliers. As a result, they are pursuing aero structures outsourcing on new aircraft programs, particularly in the air transport and rotary wing segments. (Aero-structures is one key are for India to take lead because of existing expertise and possibility of low cost manufacturing. another such area is Avionic) Training and developing low cost region companies is a relatively low cost expenditure for the Tier 1 suppliers and the airframe manufacturer, compared to dealing with western labor costs. For players in the aerospace supply chain, the capacity to engage into these processes and benefit from them is highly dependent on a company’s position in the supply chain. Small, low technology western suppliers do not usually have the financial capacity to redesign their operations significantly. These companies are facing competition from the suppliers in the low cost regions like India.

The above gives rise to opportunities for companies in India (outside of HAL) who aspire to become players in the aerospace supply chain. Companies like who can provide engineering design services ranging from CAD (drafting, detailing and modeling), CAE (finite element analysis, computational fluid dynamics, simulation and flight physics), electrical wiring/harness design, technical publications, manufacturing engineering, avionics design, testing and integration, etc. will find buyers for their services, provided they also have the necessary process discipline that certifications like AS9100, DO178B and DO254 compliance provide. Excellent configuration management, IP security and integrity guarantee are some of the other things that aerospace OEMs and Tier 1s will look for, in India companies. But the most important factor would be aerospace domain knowledge. Given the level of domain knowledge that exists in services companies in India today, especially in mechanical engineering and avionics, a reasonably high level of work does get outsourced to India. However, OEMs and Tier 1s do not farm out very high level / complexity in large volumes to India currently – they prefer that such work is done by existing Tier 1 companies in the west who then use Indian companies for further subcontracting, and provide the domain knowledge, guidance and hand holding necessary to ensure smooth execution of the work. For Indian suppliers to go higher up the value chain in design services, they need to have delegated authority signatories / direct engineering representatives (DERs) on board who can sign-off on designs. For this, they need to implement EFQM (European Foundation for Quality Management) systems, get EASA and FAA approved processes, etc. They need to have people with enough high level domain knowledge on board. While HAL, NAL and DRDO organizations are a source of such people, (Attrition is inevitable from these orgs with increasing pvt companies' role) Indian suppliers should also look at tapping the pool of aerospace chief engineer level people from USA, UK, France, Germany, etc. who would be retiring from their existing jobs, but willing to work on a part time / consultancy basis, thus imparting their tribal knowledge to younger engineers. QuEST Global Engineering is one such company that provides engineering design services using such people.

But design work can only save some money due to labor arbitrage, because it is a one time activity. For OEMs and Tier 1s to really benefit from low cost regions, service provider companies in these regions need to help OEMs and Tier 1s save money by doing design in such a way, so as to save costs in manufacturing, either through reduction of material costs, reduction in machining operations, using lesser number of parts, reducing assembly costs, etc. Since manufacturing is a repeated activity (i.e. multiple components/sub assemblies need to be manufactured from the same design), there will be a higher quantum of savings from manufacturing. By getting aerospace work done in India, aerospace OEMs and Tier 1s can derive as much as 50% cost savings on engineering design. This can directly be attributed to the difference in cost of engineering design labor between the west and India. But the quantum of savings can be increased by outsourcing machining related activities, special processing and assembly related activities. In order to deliver cost savings in these areas, engineering design companies in India need to be very familiar with the nuances of aerospace manufacturing. In addition, companies need to be able to understand how replacement of operations that were automated in the west, can be replaced by skilled labor in India. Being in a low cost region does not provide any advantage as far as the acquisition cost of machines and automation equipment is concerned – a special purpose machine costs the same in India as in the US. Similarly, the raw material would cost the same in both regions (probably a bit more in India due to the logistical requirements). Thus it limits the savings potential when the same machining or manufacturing process is involved in India as it is in the west. This problem is accentuated by very high levels of cost of capital (currently at around 14%) in India. Hence, the key to achieve higher savings in manufacturing costs, is to explore the possibility of how the initial/upfront capital expenditure costs can be reduced, and how the labor content can be increased. The opportunity for the aerospace industry therefore, is to look at accomplishing this in India. This can be achieved in India by de-automation, rather than by automation - the exact opposite of what happened in the west. If one were to breakup/strip down the manufacturing processes, and study what previously automated activities could be replaced by labor without compromising on quality, thereby doing away with some machines and equipment and thus saving capital investments, the potential cost savings could be as high as 20% - 30% in the total cost of manufacturing. This is one of the principles used by QuEST Global Manufacturing to deliver value in aerospace machining to its customers. For example, one of the products currently outsourced to QuEST Global for manufacturing, required a $1,000,000 flexible transfer line which needed auto-loading and transfer automation based on the original manufacturing process. QuEST Global substituted the elements of auto loading and transfer automation with manual loading and transfer. This reduced the capital expenditure by more than $500,000. This in effect increased the potential manufacturing cost savings and rendered the project economically viable for offshore outsourcing. An important point to be noted, is that the substitution of automation with labor must be supported by streamlining of systems and practices, ensuring the appropriate levels of skilled labor with the right knowledge is put to the task, etc. This involves extensive training, strict adherence to standard operating procedures and quality consciousness. The initial cost of this effort can be high due to the learning curve, and this can reduce the saving potential for the first year of operations, but it delivers higher savings in the subsequent years. Further cost savings can be achieved by doing the process design in such a manner as to take into account the new de-automated manufacturing process.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by sudeepj »

So much brouhaha and still no range vs payload charts. How far can an F16 go with 4 1000lb bombs and internal fuel only? How far can an LCA go with the same?
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Rakesh »

F-16: Zero km if there are sanctions
LCA: Since zero is the lowest number (yes I know about negative numbers) and Tejas can do more than zero, so Tejas is better :roll:

P.S. Since the Tejas has an American engine, that will not fly either. So we are screwed either way.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Hitesh »

Rakesh wrote:F-16: Zero km if there are sanctions
LCA: Since zero is the lowest number (yes I know about negative numbers) and Tejas can do more than zero, so Tejas is better :roll:

P.S. Since the Tejas has an American engine, that will not fly either. So we are screwed either way.
No we are not if we can restart the Kaveri program. It must be continued until we get a working engine to our liking. Why do we easily give up at the first instance of trouble.

I don't understand it. If we put all the budgeted money for the SEMRF concept into the LCA and Kaveri program, we will get what we need. We just need to finish the race.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Rakesh »

^^Hitesh: I hope Snecma was not blowing hot air when they said they would invest $1 billion to invest in the Kaveri. If they can get the Kaveri to work - which I have no doubt they will - that changes everything.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Karan M »

Thanks Rakesh. some of the usual suspects screaming the loudest for the F-16/Gripen etc, were also blithely assuring us the Arjun would continue despite the T-90.

IAF needs to commit to the Mk2 unequivocally. The theories being floated that HAL cannot scale up the LCA to beyond 16 is the cause of the deal, is completely flawed. No company will partner HAL for scaling up unless there are firm orders. a 120 unit LCA run is heartening but not sufficient by itself. It's ridiculous for Modi and co to commit to 200 plus jets and not do so likewise for the LCA. As much as I support Modis strong defence focused purchases and robust answer to TSP, no fancy foreign jet will arrive overnight either and this business of going to every capital with a deal to get FDI in return has serious challenges in turn.

Parrikar made big claims of opening the floodgates for indigenisation and the IAF said it would support the GOI in this, HAL has money parked, enough is enough and all three need to make the Mk2 happen, starting from the MOD and IAF. HAL and AdA ultimately will go along with MOD.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Rishi Verma »

I wonder what are the modalities (red tape) for IAF to place a purchase order to HAL for 250 additional Tejas over next 10 years (assuming mod has given an okay)

If it were a private manufacturer, the mota-bhai would be busy greasing the iaf machinery, mod baboos, create glitzy ads with Ranvir & Alia and keep playing the ads during IPL every 3 minutes until IAF can't take it anymore (jk), forcing iaf to get the pen out of their pockets and sends a PO with 30% down payment using dd.

What would HAL do? They will sit and wait. That's why Parrikar needs to assign a program "champion" to get both sides moving.
Last edited by Rishi Verma on 05 Nov 2016 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by svinayak »

ragupta wrote:
There is no alternative to indigenous capability, but hard to be 100% indigenous, so design, integrate, create multiple sources for component and become strategically independent in the short term should be the goal for next 10 years.
No country expects 100% domestic industry for weapons.
Major systems and Engine has to made domestic. For a large country like India with competitors who are getting weapon systems from Russia and west India has to have a road map for domestic weapon production. Jet Engine is a strategic national project.

Indian labs are doing their best and they are working on it. Indian academic world is lagging behind in learning the new and advanced Tech. It needs investment and links with the best in the world.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Karan M »

Also claims that LCA is as vulnerable to sanctions as F16 are equally facile. Number of sanction able parts in LCA are lower. We also own the design and can replace systems and tinker with it. Unlike the T90 where even making cosmetic additions had negotiations with Russia. The same chaps who loudly moan about the T90 are now pushing for MKIzed F16s, based on some brochure bashing by the Yanks about how they will be better than the Russian kit we have. Yet periodic reports emerge beyond the PR, which doubtless some valiant defenders will claim is definitely not the case (https://theaviationist.com/2015/01/27/p ... bat-ready/). We know what happened with the much vaunted US WLRs as well. CAG had a fun time with Trenton too. All said and done, the real answer is to fix things in India, not go around with a shopping cart and hope that gets us magical UNSC seat, super engines, awesome radar yada yada, all of which will be a return to screwdriver giri of the western kind, as versus Russian. Not one import deal has given us any magic. At the end of the day, we learn from doing and the LCA is what we need to drive. Instead our defence budget will be broken buying imports from countries which continue to tell us how to be nice little boys and here folks think they can actually give us all this which won't have strings attached.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by svinayak »

Rakesh wrote:^^Hitesh: I hope Snecma was not blowing hot air when they said they would invest $1 billion to invest in the Kaveri. If they can get the Kaveri to work - which I have no doubt they will - that changes everything.
That is just a start. India has to 'complete' the Kaveri project.
India has to build four different class of engine. Few of them will be domestic origin
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by ragupta »

Sanctions are counter productive, by now US must have realized it.
Sanction will delay but not prevent the determined, In the long term it will permanently damage relationship or will take much longer to build trust again. There is cost of everything. US sanctioned LCA but could not prevent it, NPT came but India became nuclear power.
Succeeding against all odds has its own happy moment :-)

Now may be this time they are trying to prevent LCA by embracing it (the risk and fear expressed by members here) But as long as we are cognizant of it and do not lose focus, we can benefit from it, by further enhancing indigenous capability.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by ragupta »

Karan M wrote:Also claims that LCA is as vulnerable to sanctions as F16 are equally facile. Number of sanction able parts in LCA are lower. We also own the design and can replace systems and tinker with it. Unlike the T90 where even making cosmetic additions had negotiations with Russia. The same chaps who loudly moan about the T90 are now pushing for MKIzed F16s, based on some brochure bashing by the Yanks about how they will be better than the Russian kit we have. Yet periodic reports emerge beyond the PR, which doubtless some valiant defenders will claim is definitely not the case (https://theaviationist.com/2015/01/27/p ... bat-ready/). We know what happened with the much vaunted US WLRs as well. CAG had a fun time with Trenton too. All said and done, the real answer is to fix things in India, not go around with a shopping cart and hope that gets us magical UNSC seat, super engines, awesome radar yada yada, all of which will be a return to screwdriver giri of the western kind, as versus Russian. Not one import deal has given us any magic. At the end of the day, we learn from doing and the LCA is what we need to drive. Instead our defence budget will be broken buying imports from countries which continue to tell us how to be nice little boys and here folks think they can actually give us all this which won't have strings attached.
LCA is a major effort to bridge the gap and build capacity,
All past deals helped incrementally, we all recognize no one is going to give us things on platter.
Spoon feeding will never help, you have to do it on our own to have confidence.
Historically, technology was also moving fast, resulting in frequest changes in specs, obsolescense, too much frustration... but hopefully we are close to catching up. last few lapses. LCA M1A/Mk2/AMCA will solidify the gain.

In the meantime there is requirement that needs to be filled, and in the process if we can get some more incremental stuff to leap us further in new orbit, why not. It would be delusional to think at one deal will bring everything and close the gap.

Arjun is a victim of vested interest, can't pathom why it is not mass produced. If someone can resurrect it and order 1000s instead of imported T90, I will be truly indebted to him for life.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Viv S »

ragupta wrote:Arjun is a victim of vested interest, can't pathom why it is not mass produced.

MiG and other firms paid millions to CBI, ED suspect Sudhir Choudhrie’s son, cousin
Russian companies that made the payments include MiG Corp, Rosoboronexport and NPO which have significant business interests in India. The Credit Suisse report does not link payments to any specific defence deal in India. But it notes the payments are “incoming funds from clients' offset business”. In the AugustaWestland corruption case, part of the payment to middlemen were described as offset payments, according to the judgment of an Italian court.

Offsets are defined as compulsory spending foreign defence firms selling equipment to India have to undertake for sourcing local material.

Rosoboronexport is a Russian government entity in charge of military exports. All Russian military deals with India are routed through this entity.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by ragupta »

That problem would still be there, as a significant portion of those brought up as part of past wheeling and dealing are still there within, and outside the establishment, the so called Lutyen brigade. It will be an a challenge to clear this mess. But as the system is streamlined it will happen slowly.

These direct Govt to Govt dealing and FMS route will fix some of this issues. But the lure of money and Natasha is hard to resist.
Exposing and shaming them is what will put a break to this greed.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Cosmo_R »

Karan M wrote:.. HAL has money parked, enough is enough and all three need to make the Mk2 happen, starting from the MOD and IAF. HAL and AdA ultimately will go along with MOD.
So why don't they spend it and deliver a MK1/2? After all, if they fail, as a PSU, HAL will still have to be bailed out right? What is the risk to them vs. the IAF? The latter have to deal with a 200 a/c shortfall for sure.

Spending parked money is a sure fire way to build cred. Earning interest on it to show profitability not so much.

Does HAL really have the capability? They have the "parked money". They supposedly have the know how. They should go for it if they have the guts and the vision. What exactly is stopping them?

Prove all skeptics wrong. And those proved wrong will cheer.

In the meanwhile, let us not sacrifice IAF pilots who fight today's battles with yesterday's need that will arrive tomorrow.

If our leaders had had the common sense to get it right the 1980s or even 2000, we would not be talking about this today.

Any war we have next is going to be brutish, nasty and short.

Those who don't survive past the intensity of round 1 (72 hours) are not going to make a difference with science projects that deliver over 10 years if everything goes well.

JMT
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Philip »

Why a decade ago I said that we should've had two LCA prototypes,one flying with an EJ TVC engine that was offered.The US will be delighted to have us by the genitals for both the LCA and F-16 if acquired ,with the nightmare scenario of sanctions in the future preventing us from defeating Pak militarily and letting Pak keep on with its terror policy.It will then demand a compromise from us on Kashmir,manipulating both nations.
Sadly our current regime is falling into the trap with eyes wide open and the IAF blinkered as usual demanding only firang toys to play with.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Vivek K »

Cosmo_R wrote: In the meanwhile, let us not sacrifice IAF pilots who fight today's battles with yesterday's need that will arrive tomorrow.
That remark is below the belt but also goes to show the mindset of those opposed to domestic weapons. Why do you think that LCA/HAL (MK1/MK2) cannot deliver? And do you think that the souped up 60s weapons platform will win in every situation? Why did the souped up 21s win against the 15s in Cope India exercises? Or were those lies?

The LCA has proven itself as
a) bomb truck
b) missile platform

and will cost a fourth. Also consider the effect of spending billions on local industry what do you think that will do to the economy/quality of life of Indians?

Mere hardware does not win wars - but tactics and training help overcome deficiencies. The LCA with tanker and AWACS support will overwhelm anything the enemy can throw at them. This is crunch time. Indian Airfrorce will remain outsourced or become a potent home grown force that can adapt to different challenges.

We have a choice to make!
Last edited by Vivek K on 06 Nov 2016 06:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Philip »

The aim is to kill off the LCA and any threat of India challenging the major western manufacturers.They can't scr*w China but certainly India thanks tokò our myopic mandarins of South Block.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Vivek K »

For once I agree whole heartedly with you Philip Sir!
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Cosmo_R »

Vivek K wrote:
That remark is below the belt but also goes to show the mindset of those opposed to domestic weapons. Why do you think that LCA/HAL (MK1/MK2) cannot deliver? And do you think that the souped up 60s weapons platform will win in every situation? Why did the souped up 21s win against the 15s in Cope India exercises? Or were those lies?
..
and will cost a fourth. Also consider the effect of spending billions on local industry what do you think that will do to the economy/quality of life of Indians? .../
The enemy hits below the belt. That is what enemies do. Hitting them below the belt is what you want our guys in the IAF to have the capacity to do.

You want" economy/quality of life of Indians", the edge for the IAF is not the part you give up as a social science contributor.

That gets us Lee Enfield 303s (Boer war stuff) as assault rifles in 1962 against the Chinese.

Think about it. Please. Else, it's just the cannon fodder/charge of the light brigade you condemn them to.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Vivek K »

So you think that the LCA is comparable to LEE Enfield? Look pilots die in war due to
a) inferior weapons
b) Poor tactics with superior weapons
c) Poorly maintained aircraft
d) Poor decision making - letting pilots fly aircraft with unqualified spares.

I get the impression that you place the LCA in category a) which is not correct. The LCA has maintained an accident free record for over a decade. Neither the teens nor the 21s can match that. Outsourcing causes problems with inventories, especially in a war. In every war that India has fought the defence minister goes running all over the world to get either missiles or munitions because the air force did not maintain enough supplies. In Kargil some of that situation was overcome with local innovation - smart kits on dumb bombs.

There is no shortcut to the top but seems to me that you're looking for a shortcut. Such arrangements work well in the short term and start to fall apart in the medium to long term. Generally what will happen is that the interests of the supplier nation and the buyer nation get out of sync say 7-10 years later and now spares become problematic and the aircraft suffers problem c) and d). This gets worse with public calling the teens as a coffin maker or some such.

Therefore the only way out is to innovate and use your INSAS (please use that instead of the Lee Enfield)/Arjun/LCA to whack the enemy with and win.

And the other outcome of keeping your billions invested locally is that your economy rises to the top. And with belief in yourself, you are able to perform well in other industries as well.

But Modi came in with big slogans - it is a test of his resolve. Can the political leadership show commitment to India's destiny or like the INC fall prey to temptation and go for imports again? That is the test and decision they face.
Last edited by Vivek K on 06 Nov 2016 07:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Hitesh »

Cosmo_R wrote:
Vivek K wrote:
That remark is below the belt but also goes to show the mindset of those opposed to domestic weapons. Why do you think that LCA/HAL (MK1/MK2) cannot deliver? And do you think that the souped up 60s weapons platform will win in every situation? Why did the souped up 21s win against the 15s in Cope India exercises? Or were those lies?
..
and will cost a fourth. Also consider the effect of spending billions on local industry what do you think that will do to the economy/quality of life of Indians? .../
The enemy hits below the belt. That is what enemies do. Hitting them below the belt is what you want our guys in the IAF to have the capacity to do.

You want" economy/quality of life of Indians", the edge for the IAF is not the part you give up as a social science contributor.

That gets us Lee Enfield 303s (Boer war stuff) as assault rifles in 1962 against the Chinese.

Think about it. Please. Else, it's just the cannon fodder/charge of the light brigade you condemn them to.
Sir, your analogy of Lee Enfield 303s only makes sense in the climate that we do not have an Indian alternative or version of modern arms. In this case, we do and it does well for our needs. By all accounts, the LCA is a fine platform and does what we need, reliably and cheaply. It may not have all the bling or flash that other fighters do but it will get the job done in a manner that is satisfactory for all of us. So please do not throw out the equivalent of the common stupid nonsensical refrain, "What about the children!?" to sensible suggestions and solutions.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by shiv »

Vivek K wrote:
Mere hardware does not win wars - but tactics and training help overcome deficiencies. The LCA with tanker and AWACS support will overwhelm anything the enemy can throw at them. This is crunch time. Indian Airfrorce will remain outsourced or become a potent home grown force that can adapt to different challenges.

We have a choice to make!
This is both a beautiful piece of prose as well as a truism. But it should not be used as a rhetorical point to avoid the reality that in a hot war the first week may reveal 10-15% attrition.

Let me illustrate

We start a war with 500 combat aircraft. In the first week we lose 10% - so we start the second week with 450. In the second week if we lose 10% again - we are left with 405 at the start of week 3. By week 3 we need to bring the attrition down to less then 10%. If it remains at 10% in week 3 then we will have just 365 aircraft at the start of week 4. We may have 380 or so if the attrition is less than 10%.

Consider the same scenario with 750 combat aircraft which can mount a much more massive series of sorties to take out enemy targets
If we lose 10% in week 1 we start week 2 with 675. If we lose 10% in week 2 we start week 3 with 600 plus aircraft. But with a larger number we can bash the opposition better in the early weeks and achieve air dominance so that the attrition rate of aircraft diminishes as time passes.

We can sustain a much longer war. Bravery and great aircraft are not enough

No air force can sustain 10% loss a week for more than a few weeks. We need to be able to attack MASSIVELY to achieve air dominance in 2, max 3 weeks. Let these be no illusions about that. Let that not be covered up by clever BRF rhetoric.

Allow me also some banal rhetorical truisms. War is not a relay race where the first team of 4 hand batons to the next team of 4 in an endless chain.
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Re: Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology

Post by Vivek K »

Why do you think that IAF will lose 10% of fleet strength every week? because of its decision to buy the LCA? Are you saying that you do not have confidence in its ability to hold its own against the enemy's fleet? Go back to the Battle of Britain and maybe there may be a parallel.

However, if we invest in 500 LCAs we could put up 70 - 80% of these or more for combat duty. Taking the higher %, IAF would have 400 combat aircraft available. With an imported aircraft, perhaps 50% will be available. So the airforce will be in much worse shape with imports.

I probably do not understand your claim about "clever BRF rhetoric". Again you seem to be going the way of imports and are using that perspective to justify your arguments. Producing 200 imported fighter aircraft in India will need
a) clever arguments at the political level to sell it
b) time to set up an assembly line/facility

We could invest the same for the LCA and set up an assembly line/facility that would be capable of producing a larger number of aircraft. So the strength could be there in numbers in the same time as for the imported fighter. Where then is the advantage?
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