India-US relations: News and Discussions III

[Mort Walker]

^^^There is so much dirt on the CCF that it takes a couple of 2-3 threads.

[Hitesh]

India's Strategic Win

About the MII F-16, but the title seems strange.

The promised market of the F-16 in today's climate and tomorrow's climate is a mirage. This is not a strategic win but a strategic blunder for India and its domestic defense aviation industry

[Philip]

The only part of the "make in India" mantra achievable will be the pilot!

[hnair]

The only part of the "make in India" mantra achievable will be the pilot!

But with cheaper airfare for foreign vacations, cant bank on even that!

[Hitesh]

The only part of the "make in India" mantra achievable will be the pilot!

As long as you remember to apply the same standards to Russian products. The same could be said for the MKIs and the Kamov helicopters.

[ramana]

OK. Get back to topic.


Please critique the article or not.
Thanks, ramana

[NRao]

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/11/ ... india.html

Responses by Abhay Paranjape:

Lockheed Martin is offering India the exclusive opportunity to produce, operate and export F-16 Block 70 aircraft. Exclusive F-16 production in India would make India home to the world’s only F-16 production facility, a leading exporter of advanced fighter aircraft, and offer Indian industry the opportunity to become an integral part of the world’s largest fighter aircraft supply chain.

"Export", as a data point.

Leveraging technologies from our 5th Generation fleet of aircraft, the F-16 Block 70 aircraft is the most technologically advanced F-16 ever offered. These advances include the APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, a new high resolution center pedestal display, a new mission computer significantly enhancing processing and storage capacity, and a new 1 gigabit Ethernet databus. Further leveraging recent structural life extension efforts performed for the U.S. Air Force, the F-16 Block 70 will deliver a 50 percent or more increase in additional service life to 12,000 hours or beyond – a significant increase over competing aircraft. From an industrial program perspective, Lockheed Martin’s offer to move all future F-16 production to India is unprecedented, as it would place Indian industry at the center of the world’s most extensive fighter aircraft supply base. None of our competitors can offer that.

[Philip]

To whom,Pakistan?

[Hitesh]

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/11/ ... india.html

Responses by Abhay Paranjape:

Lockheed Martin is offering India the exclusive opportunity to produce, operate and export F-16 Block 70 aircraft. Exclusive F-16 production in India would make India home to the world’s only F-16 production facility, a leading exporter of advanced fighter aircraft, and offer Indian industry the opportunity to become an integral part of the world’s largest fighter aircraft supply chain.

"Export", as a data point.

Leveraging technologies from our 5th Generation fleet of aircraft, the F-16 Block 70 aircraft is the most technologically advanced F-16 ever offered. These advances include the APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, a new high resolution center pedestal display, a new mission computer significantly enhancing processing and storage capacity, and a new 1 gigabit Ethernet databus. Further leveraging recent structural life extension efforts performed for the U.S. Air Force, the F-16 Block 70 will deliver a 50 percent or more increase in additional service life to 12,000 hours or beyond – a significant increase over competing aircraft. From an industrial program perspective, Lockheed Martin’s offer to move all future F-16 production to India is unprecedented, as it would place Indian industry at the center of the world’s most extensive fighter aircraft supply base. None of our competitors can offer that.

NRao, nobody else will buy these planes. The potential ones are those who are going for F-35s or something else or going for gripens, not F-16s. They are hoping that India would be so stupid enough to buy these planes by promising India of a market to export to. There is not. F-16s are being phased out. They just want to dump the manufacturing line on us and hoping to make a buck out of it at our own expense.

[NRao]

Hitesh,

I posted that because I was told, when I posted that India could export, that the game plan was for India to manufacture and LM to sell.

On if the F-16 is sellable there is plenty on the subject in open source. So, up to you to chase that tail and make up your mind. All I am saying is that India has the authority to sell that plane if MII.

Having said that, here is another data point on potential from 3 years ago.

10/28/2013
U.S. Fighter Aircraft Pricing Themselves Out of the Export Market
By Sandra I. Erwin



At a time when U.S. arms manufacturers are turning to overseas markets to help make up for declining sales to Pentagon, analysts warn that the high prices of American fighter jets could place U.S. firms at a competitive disadvantage.

The arrival of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter gives manufacturer Lockheed Martin Corp. an opportunity to sell the world’s most technologically advanced aircraft. But its price tag, in excess of $100 million per airplane, will make it unattainable for most non-U.S. buyers, according to new analysis by The Teal Group, a market research firm. Other perennial contenders in international competitions, Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-15 Eagle, also are becoming out of reach for many nations.

“We've jacked up the price of fighters,” says Teal Group Vice President Richard Aboulafia. “The export market’s reaction? ‘No, thank you,’” he tells industry executives at a meeting hosted by the Air Force Association, in Arlington, Va.

Although the average unit price of fighters sold internationally today is $65 million — about the cost of a Super hornet — the bulk of the export market increasingly wants F-16 prices, which is about one-third less, says Aboulafia.

Of 52 countries that buy fighters worldwide, 30 are in the $35 million to $50 million price range, he says.

American firms face a “ real issue” trying to sell higher end machines, Aboulafia says. There are currently just five F-15 users after 40 years of trying to sell it internationally, and one non-U.S. user of the Super Hornet after 15 years of competitions, he says. “That's not good.”

As the manufacturer of the F-16, Lockheed effectively owns the keys to the kingdom of export fighters, says Aboulafia. The problem is that the company is focusing its marketing efforts on the F-35 as it courts international buyers, and only a handful of countries can afford it.

“It's very telling when you go to [Lockheed’s plant in] Fort Worth, Texas, that the F-16 line is treated like the red-headed stepchild,” he says. “I don't think it's necessarily in their interest to keep it going. … But it is concerning because, in terms of the export market, the F-16 line is extremely relevant and necessary.”

The majority of buyers over the coming decades will shop for fighters in the price range of the F-16 or the Mirage 2000, made by France’s Dassault Aviation, Aboulafia says. “And that is the market that we're in danger of abandoning.”

It is estimated that only seven countries could afford the Super Hornet and another seven might be candidates for the F-35, including Singapore, Japan, Israel and South Korea.

[Singha]

F-16 block70 will be the same cost as the F-18 right? it also features all the same next gen bells and whistles. the only saving might be 1 less engine to buy and upkeep so 50% less engines to deal with. and somewhat less opex in fuel burn. the F-18 has the 2 engines due to naval needs, the F-16 is the optimal medium plane for land based medium range roles imo. its also the more agile airframe albeit how much the CFT affects it vs the gold std performance of block40 is unknown to open src.

[Bart S]

F-16 block70 will be the same cost as the F-18 right? it also features all the same next gen bells and whistles. the only saving might be 1 less engine to buy and upkeep so 50% less engines to deal with. and somewhat less opex in fuel burn. the F-18 has the 2 engines due to naval needs, the F-16 is the optimal medium plane for land based medium range roles imo. its also the more agile airframe albeit how much the CFT affects it vs the gold std performance of block40 is unknown to open src.

It should be at least 20% cheaper to buy and maintain than an equivalent (in terms of avionics and weaponry) F-18E/F, and is also more efficient for land usage as it does not need/have the reinforcements and systems needed for carrier operation. Since it carries massive payload relative to it's size/weight (compare with Mig29 for example), it is extremely good as a bomb truck (as the Israelis discovered) apart from being a top class air to air machine.

[krishna_krishna]

To all massa pasand dalal's, if solah was that great how come it did not pass muster of MMRCA contest????? Let it first demonstrate it can pass all those tests than we can spend meaningful bandwidth on that. Too me Solah's are aishwarya on Steroids, pass the prime.

Time to have a new design not an indian version of JF-17 blunder with lollipop on export potential. All these forces would be looking to replace solah's in near future that is the market we should tap with new 5-th generation design, if massa is willing to let us be a partner in that sure open up the assembly lines but Solah's no way jose!!!!

[ragupta]

To all massa pasand dalal's, if solah was that great how come it did not pass muster of MMRCA contest????? Let it first demonstrate it can pass all those tests than we can spend meaningful bandwidth on that. Too me Solah's are aishwarya on Steroids, pass the prime.

Most selection process is designed for specific outcome, rest is all tamasha...

[Manish_Sharma]

To all massa pasand dalal's, if solah was that great how come it did not pass muster of MMRCA contest????? Let it first demonstrate it can pass all those tests than we can spend meaningful bandwidth on that. Too me Solah's are aishwarya on Steroids, pass the prime.

When Rafale won and shooklaw proposed f-35 instead, lots of usa supporters were saying by 2035 the Rafale will be completely outdated and obsolete we should just lease Rafale for 20 years.

Now f-16 second hand line transfer will make F-16 'State of Art' even in 2056.

F-18 guy in Bharat took at dig at LM by saying, "...we will set up modern State of Art line instead of old second hand one..."

[NRao]

The F-teens are FAR from a done deal. The probability is lower than 0.5.

Check this article (and the author) from 2013:

Want to Export an F-16 Fighter Jet?

As a F-16 ONLY deal, it would be extremely difficult to move the line to India. As part of a much larger picture, possible. Question is how probable.

[krishna_krishna]

^^^^They may not be done deal but when you just talk wrt India they could not even clear the tests or perform on the metrics so massa can keep donating them to pakis and likes to keep them in market and so dalals like you can claim we are still in business with teens, perfectly okay.

[Philip]

It will be instead a "State o fart" fighter!

[NRao]

Not a topic for this thread per se, but note how Modi dealt with PM May (and actually EU) too.

Two items of interest:
* India is no longer a nation that can be sanctioned. China is the only one standing in the way, but IMHO that window is closing rather rapidly
* Indians need to look at the broader picture that Modi has been painting. This single-engine effort is not about a plane, it has a much, much broader framework

[disha]

Best would be for Amricans to provide F404 and AESA Radar Tech with full TOT.

F404 can be started as a manufacturing line and since Engines & Radar are one of the costliest components to make., India can make the engines and its parts and export it to US (and other countries).

This will also act as a good CBM by Amricans.

[Bheeshma]

Why would americans be stupid enough to do that? If India wants they can spend on R&D and build it themselves. No one provides technology for lovbe of money or god. The bottom line is India will not help US out in middle east or europe and India should not expect Americans to interfere in Kashmir against chini or pakis.

[ramana]

Bheeshma, Its a rhetorical answer by disha.
Don't get into a twist.

[NRao]

Best would be for Amricans to provide F404 and AESA Radar Tech with full TOT.

India asked for co-design/co-dev of updating the F414-INS6. And, it was approved in Dec, 2015. The F-16 is supposed to be the price, in addition to anything else - supposedly, not many details are out there in open source

This will also act as a good CBM by Amricans.

The CBM effort started around 1994ish, during PM Rao era, first Clinton term. It moved very, very slowly until Donald Rumsfeld era, who as the DefSec started what is today known as DTTI. It is perhaps under Modi that it has accelerated the most. But the ground work was done earlier.

[krishna_krishna]

F414-INS6 Engine is still us designed and developed , no way any engine ToT offered.

He is talking about on ground tangible CBM's , not a single power plant has been commissioned so far with inputs from massa since your 94sh CBM's

[brar_w]

Serious question - Which part of the F414 actually requires co-design and what exactly has been designed by India? I would call it a modification to accommodate a new type, but a co-design?

[Manish_Sharma]

India asked for co-design/co-dev of updating the F414-INS6. And, it was approved in Dec, 2015.

Serious question - Which part of the F414 actually requires co-design and what exactly has been designed by India? I would call it a modification to accommodate a new type, but a co-design?

Seriously as long as lemoa discussion was going on everytime anybody opposed it was thrown around look US is giving dtti, engine tech.

Exactly after signing of lemoa the US controlled media reported that engine is now connected with buying of 100 teen jets...

[Philip]

We need a new td label,"US-The Trump era".The ramifications for the globe and India will be enormous.Global markets are in meltdown as uncertainty abounds.

[CRamS]

All the Indians who are rooting for Trump are going to get the biggest shock of their lives, if they haven't already, when he says both India and TSP are his good munnas and he will mediate yada yada. And in fact, I won't be surprised if ISI already dispatched their PR machinery on Trump & Co to emphasize this very same point. And TSP will continue its terrorist and cross LoC machinations to remind Trump of his promise to mediate between India and TSP. Also, Trump will also be obsessed with ISIS and Al Queda, and TSP will say "me too", and that would earn brownie points for TSP. In a way, nothing will change in US policy in "South Asia".

[Sicanta]

Let him make his first move atleast before crying wolf.

[UlanBatori]

D-S.

[CRamS]

Only when US stops viewing India and TSP through a colonial lens will India TSP equal equal change. Trump is either condescending towards non whites, or downright extremist. Both of these don't suit India, but suit TSP just fine: equal equal in both cases. Also Trump might impose extreme taxes and other bottleneck on those companies hiring Indian IT outsourcing companies, and that will surely hurt Indian economy.

Where Trump's worldview might benefit India is his attitude towards China. There he will not tolerate US == China, he wants US >>> China. If as promised during campaign, he goes tough on Chinese, that can only benefit India. But on the other hands, the millions of white racist zombies who thronged to him find out that China can retaliate and the cheap slave-labor goods they enjoy at Wal*Mart and Target will no longer be cheap should their Godfather Trump follow through on his threats, they are going to push back and so will Trump. Bottom line: How Trump deals with China will be interesting to watch.

[Sicanta]

'White racist zombies' - right here is the reason why Hillary lost.

[ramana]

CRS, I think the whine thread got closed early...

BTW majority of the Forum votes were for Trump to win.

I think a little introspection on your support is suggested.

Philip we created on Twitter hash tag #TrumPOTUS

[brar_w]

We need a new td label,"US-The Trump era".The ramifications for the globe and India will be enormous.Global markets are in meltdown as uncertainty abounds.

A much as global and US markets respond to political events, they are likely to add to their recent gains if for nothing else but the fact that political gridlock in Washington has finally ended and a clear economic agenda that is generally pro business, and pro wall-street has a chance (if a party that has sat in the opposition for 8 years and get it together to become a party of 'proposers' vs party of 'opposers' as Ryan put it) of coming through. Some reports to him looking to appoint his campaign finance cheif (Goldman alumni) in the treasury etc are probably going to get a better response from the markets since the progressive wing of the Democratic party had drawn a line against anyone with ties to walls treat being on HRC's cabinet. Expect the isolationist rhetoric to quiet down and ultimately fade away not that the political benefits have been derived.

[NRao]

Lockheed Martin Plans to Manufacture 30 F-16 Jets A Year In Proposed Indian Facility

Lockheed executives briefing defenseworld.net following an Indian suppliers’ meeting in Bangalore today said that they would look at starting the ‘Make-in-India’ manufacturing project with 12 aircraft a year going up to 36 at peak.

“The cost to India would reduce with every new block of aircraft manufactured and given the competitive labor costs here, you can look at a real competitively priced plane,” said Howard adding that the made-in-India F-16 would also be exported to markets in the Middle -East, Eastern Europe and Asia.

[arun]

The Hindu American Foundation lays out “Policy Concerns” that they would like to engage with the incoming US Administration. Some of these “Policy Concerns” overlap with India’s concerns. These overlapping concerns include:

1.ensuring hate crimes against Indians} are monitored and combatted vigilantly,

2.equitable H-1B policy

3. gross human rights violations borne by Hindus and other religious minorities around the world, especially in countries such as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where radical Islam is fomenting terror and violence;

4.Pakistan’s proxy war in Indian Kashmir that has led to the ethnic cleansing of over 300,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pandits and ongoing violence against Hindu minorities in Kashmir;

5.bilateral ties of the United States with nations that sponsor terrorism.

I do hope that just because these concerns have been articulated by the “Hindu” American Foundation our communal religious vote bank seeking pseudo-secular’s will resist reflexive first impulse and not now start a campaign to get the new US Administration to encourage the exact opposite of what is listed above:

HAF Welcomes Engaging Trump Administration on Hindu American Policy Concerns

Celebrates Four Hindu American Members of Congress, State, and Local Representatives

The Hindu American Foundation (HAF) congratulates Donald Trump on being elected the 45th President of the United States. We look forward to working with the Trump-Pence administration to address those issues, both within the United States and abroad, that are of deep concern to many in the Hindu American community.

We are encouraged by President-elect Trump’s call to “bind the wounds of division” and “come together as one united people,” which recognizes the need for unity amongst the deep political, social, and religious diversity of the United States.

This commitment, we hope, will extend to issues HAF has long advocated for: ensuring hate crimes are monitored and combatted vigilantly, alongside outreach to affected communities to ensure their safety and security; comprehensive immigration reform, with specific attention to religious worker visas, equitable H-1B policy, and accommodations for Hindu refugees fleeing persecution; and continued engagement on issues of law enforcement and cultural competency, so that all Americans can enjoy equal protection under the law.

In carrying out our nation’s foreign policy, of utmost concern to HAF continues to be: the gross human rights violations borne by Hindus and other religious minorities around the world, especially in countries such as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where radical Islam is fomenting terror and violence; Pakistan’s proxy war in Indian Kashmir that has led to the ethnic cleansing of over 300,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pandits and ongoing violence against Hindu minorities in Kashmir; and bilateral ties of the United States with nations that sponsor terrorism.

On all these issues we look forward to engaging the incoming Trump-Pence administration to ensure a safe and prosperous future for all Americans.

We also take this opportunity to celebrate the achievements of the Hindu American community. This election has been nothing less than historic. For the first time there are four Hindu members of Congress: incumbent Tulsi Gabbard (D-HI) is joined by first time winners Pramila Jayapal (D-WA), Ro Khanna (D-CA), and Raja Krishnamoorthi (D-IL) in the House of Representatives. We also offer our heartiest congratulations to Indian American incumbent Ami Bera (D-CA), and the first ever Indian American to be elected to the U.S. Senate, Kamala Harris (D-CA).

Hindu Americans also made significant strides in state-level races. Just a few of these include incumbents Niraj Antani (R-OH) and Prasad Srinivasan (R-CT), along with Jay Chaudhuri (D-NC) and Ash Kalra (D-CA), who were elected as first time winners and the first Hindus to serve in their respective state legislatures. Hindu Americans were also elected to many city-level races around the country, too numerous to mention.

The Hindu American community has arrived politically, and it is now upon us to ensure that our elected representatives at all levels of government hear our concerns and needs, and act upon them for the well-being of all.

From here:

HAF Welcomes Engaging Trump Administration on Hindu American Policy Concerns

[chetak]

In the end Trump is a xtian.

Hope these HAF guys don't burn any bridges and mess up things for the Hindus in the US and for India by some imagined Trump soft corner and thereby some self expected but unrealizable concessions

[CRamS]

ChetakJi, indeed he is a hard-core Christian of the fanatic variety (never mind in his personal dealing, many Christian teaching are fartherest away from his actions), so he is not going to be that gung ho about getting close to Hindus now that the election is over.

I knew this naivete is coming, but I saw a debate on newsX with some US honchos and Nalapat on India US relations under Trump. This Nalapat guy sometimes makes good points, but on Trump, either he doesn't have the brains or plain silly to suggest that as a business man, Trump expects give and take. He went on to add that India must join Trump in fighting ISIS. And another US honcho also said the same thing, US wants India on its side, but it is India that is reluctant. Now for colonized morons, this latter statement is music, but for us seasoned observers, Nalapat included, the import of this statement means: be my good munna, commit troops in Syria Iraq etc etc. And what will TSP do? "Me too". And then what will Trump do? You both (both India and TSP) are my munnas, I will invite both of you to a white house dinner and help you resolve Kashmir, with pompous Burka bibi smiling and giggling and declaring a "nuance view" Trump is taking on India and TSP. How anybody with an ounce of India-US relations intelligence not see this beyond me.

[NRao]

Pardon if this has been posted/discussed earlier.

Here Is What Donald Trump Wants To Do In His First 100 Days

Here are items that either directly or indirectly influence Indo-US relations:

* SIXTH, a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.
* SECOND, I will announce our withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership
* THIRD, I will direct my Secretary of the Treasury to label China a currency manipulator
* FOURTH, I will direct the Secretary of Commerce and U.S. Trade Representative to identify all foreign trading abuses that unfairly impact American workers and direct them to use every tool under American and international law to end those abuses immediately
* End The Offshoring Act. Establishes tariffs to discourage companies from laying off their workers in order to relocate in other countries and ship their products back to the U.S. tax-free.
* Repeal and Replace Obamacare Act. Fully repeals Obamacare and replaces it with Health Savings Accounts, the ability to purchase health insurance across state lines, and lets states manage Medicaid funds. Reforms will also include cutting the red tape at the FDA: there are over 4,000 drugs awaiting approval, and we especially want to speed the approval of life-saving medications.

[NRao]

Can Donald Trump take Indo-US defence and strategic ties to greater heights?

Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) Stock Skyrockets: Is It Trump?

There is also some noise about Trump willing to mediate on Kashmir. Could not find anything (outside Paki reports).