Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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titash
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by titash »

Bheeshma wrote:I understand Brahmos on Talwars and bigger ships but the NG-corvette's? Can they take 8 Brahmos-M's?
Taat-shri,
The BrahMos is 8+ meters long; no way it is going to make inroads into a small ship < 4000 tons. The Talwar class has a draught of 4m, and possibly freeboard of 5-6m. It still needs a 1-2m protrusion above decks to hold the missile. This is really suited for large warships.

Having said that, I refer you to the following pic. The Indonesians did something innovative with the old dutch Leanders they purchased. These have Yakhonts (~ BrahMos). They mount these vertically next to the helicopter hangar...very exposed position I imagine...even 12.7mm heavy machine gunfire could set these off.

(edit: the last part's not true...most soviet warships had their big-a$$ SSM missiles in exposed positions)

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by titash »

Interestingly after the sinking of the INS Vindhyagiri and the decommissioning of the INS Taragiri, the remaining Godavari class frigates appear to have taken on the role of UAV control ship. Check out these pics and videos of the INS Ganga. The twin small radomes atop the helicopter hangar are the same style as the INS Vindhyagiri used to mount (adjaced to her collapsible hangar). Of course the mandatory large central radome for rukmini SATCOM is also visible on the hangar.

Nice to see the IN concentrate on force multipliers. We're well on our way to have a truly network-centric fleet.

Ganga showing UAV control radome & rukmini SATCOM radome
Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enZJKEI9T0Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK0Jd-hX8vQ
titash
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by titash »

Looks like every fleet asset as small as 2000 tons is integrated into the network-centric model.

INS Kamorta with rukmini SATCOM
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INS Saryu showing rukmini SATCOM
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Bheeshma wrote:I understand Brahmos on Talwars and bigger ships but the NG-corvette's? Can they take 8 Brahmos-M's?
The missile is likely to be Brahmos not Brahmos-M and original plan was for it to fitted on even the Tarantul class on inclined launchers but was abandoned due to cost concerns.
For NG corvette it can be fitted in a configuration similar to Buyan class or it can be carried in inclined launchers.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by ShauryaT »

I am keeping my hopes that Russian cooperation to design a capable SSN and an Akula class reactor for India is part of this submarine cooperation. Getting this type of a reactor under Indian control is critical not only for the SSN but future carrier projects also.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karthik S »

ShauryaT wrote:I am keeping my hopes that Russian cooperation to design a capable SSN and an Akula class reactor for India is part of this submarine cooperation. Getting this type of a reactor under Indian control is critical not only for the SSN but future carrier projects also.
Isn't Arihant modeled after Akula ? Converting it into a full SSN should be done soon and need to start building them in pairs, not with 2 year intervals that we see with other ships barring the kalavi class.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Yagnasri »

I thought Akula class is quite bigger than Arihanth.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karthik S »

It's heavier because it's double hulled.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by ShauryaT »

Karthik S wrote:It's heavier because it's double hulled.
Double hulled, bigger, double the reactor MWt and FAST.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by SSridhar »

Amid Indo-Pak tension, Navy plans major drill - Rajat Pandit, ToI
With the operational situation along the western front remaining volatile amid heavy exchanges of cross-border firing with Pakistani forces, the Indian security establishment is taking no chances in being ready for any contingency. Even as the Army and IAF airbases maintain top-levels of operational readiness, the Navy too is swinging into action with a major exercise "Paschim Leher (western wave)" in the Arabian Sea from next week.

Over 40 warships and submarines, backed by maritime fighter jets, patrol aircraft and drones, have already begun to amass on the western seaboard for the intensive combat manoeuvres, which include "a little cross-deployment" even from the eastern seaboard, say top defence sources. Concurrently, the defence ministry has delegated emergency financial powers to the three Service vice-chiefs, Lieutenant General Bipin Rawat, Air Marshal B S Dhanoa and Vice Admiral K B Singh, and set up empowered procurement committees to "make up deficiencies" in the ammunition and spares stockpiles of their forces "at the earliest", added the sources.

The Indian security establishment's assessment is that Pakistan army chief General Raheel Sharif "may try something" in the form of BAT (border action team) operations or a major terror strike in the Indian mainland. "Gen Sharif is likely to keep tensions high in the run-up to his slated retirement towards November end," said a source.

"Gen Sharif may be angling for an extension as the Army chief or assuming some other important role despite his edgy equation with the Nawaz Sharif government. Since Thursday morning, there has been a sudden increase in firing by Pakistani forces both along the line of control (LoC) and international border (IB) in J&K," he added.

The firing has been particularly intense in the Sunderbani, Poonch, Bimber and Tangdhar areas along the LoC as well as the Kathua, Hiranagar and Samba regions of the IB. The cross-border exchanges have been largely restricted to 82-mm mortars and machine gun fire, except for an occasional use of 120-mm heavy mortars by the two sides. Artillery duels, which would mark a major escalation, have not been witnessed so far.

"The situation is not warlike. But it's certainly hot. Our forces have registered as many as 57 ceasefire violations by Pak forces since the Indian Army conducted surgical strikes against terror launch pads in Pakistan-Occupied-Kashmir a month ago on September 29," said another source. The creation of the empowered committees, which have already visited Russia and Israel, to fast-track acquisitions for artillery shells, rockets, missiles, tank ammunition and the like comes in the backdrop of the 1.3-million strong Army holding less than half of its authorised war wastage reserves (WWR) for 40 days of "intense fighting", as was reported earlier by TOI.

"Yes, the armed forces do not have enough WWR for even 20 days of a full-scale war. But that does not mean they are not operationally ready. The empowered committees have been set up because it was seen that the normal capital procurement route was proving cumbersome and taking too long," said the source.

The Paschim Leher naval exercise, in turn, is a scaled up version of the earlier "Defence of Gujarat Exercise (DGX)" and geared towards tackling both conventional military as well as terror threats emanating from the sea. "The exercise, from November 2 to 14, of the Mumbai-based Western Naval Command will test operational readiness all along the west coast," said the source.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Rammpal »

Yagnasri wrote:I thought Akula class is quite bigger than Arihanth.
"The noise level of the Virginia is equal to that of the US Navy Seawolf, SSN 21, with a lower acoustic signature than the Russian Improved Akula Class and fourth-generation attack submarines. To achieve this low acoustic signature, the Virginia incorporates newly designed anechoic coatings, isolated deck structures and a new design of propulsor."

http://theconversation.com/dawn-raids-i ... tegy-32890

Could Indian naval engineers improve on the above 'lower acoustic signature'shortcoming ?? :wink:
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

^^The link above is unconnected with the post. Nothing about SSN 21 or Seawolf.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Rammpal »

shiv wrote:^^The link above is unconnected with the post. Nothing about SSN 21 or Seawolf.
Acoustic signature quality of Akula, vis-a-vis, American machines.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

Rammpal wrote:
shiv wrote:^^The link above is unconnected with the post. Nothing about SSN 21 or Seawolf.
Acoustic signature quality of Akula, vis-a-vis, American machines.
Here is your post. I will quote in full
Rammpal wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:I thought Akula class is quite bigger than Arihanth.
"The noise level of the Virginia is equal to that of the US Navy Seawolf, SSN 21, with a lower acoustic signature than the Russian Improved Akula Class and fourth-generation attack submarines. To achieve this low acoustic signature, the Virginia incorporates newly designed anechoic coatings, isolated deck structures and a new design of propulsor."

http://theconversation.com/dawn-raids-i ... tegy-32890

Could Indian naval engineers improve on the above 'lower acoustic signature'shortcoming ?? :wink:

The post above has a link to an article. I will post again in case you missed it when you posted it or when I pointed it out

This is the link
http://theconversation.com/dawn-raids-i ... tegy-32890

If you move your mouse cursor over the link and click, it leads to an article that has no connection with the question you ask. I am asking - what has the link got to do with your question. I clicked on and read the link and wasted my time - so either you have made a mistake or you are trolling. If it is a mistake, I am still interested in the topic. If it is trolling I don't give a damn and will drop the subject and not read anything more that you write about it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Rammpal »

Yes, my intention is to highlight that particular tech. feature.
Added the link, thinking it to be rude otherwise.
And that backfired in a rather unexpected manner !

My interest is in all things platform - sea, land, air and space, and all propulsion concepts related to same.
I like Russian concepts, in general, i.e.:their approach to dealing with any given situation.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

Rammpal wrote:Yes, my intention is to highlight that particular tech. feature.
Added the link, thinking it to be rude otherwise.
Yes it is definitely rude because the link has no connection whatsoever with your question. Did you not notice that or are you deliberately avoiding that as a form of trolling?

As you can see the article does not mention Russia, the SSN 21, Akula or the word "acoustic"
http://theconversation.com/dawn-raids-i ... tegy-32890
It is not often that we witness strategic design in action, for the benefit of national security and economic growth. The challenges of translating good ideas into meaningful acts can be too great and the courage required to run the gauntlet of media reaction and public opinion can be lacking.

In the case of Australia’s future submarine program, the increasing evidence can be interpreted in such a way to suggest that the Coalition and the Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) may have performed a well-executed feat of strategic manoeuvre.
It was always known that Australia would need a design partner to support the construction and maintenance of its next fleet of submarines. The experience acquired through the Collins Class program – and the lessons learned – put Australian industry in a leading position to take on a manufacturing and sustainment role, but a design partner was always necessary.

In his 2012 final review of the Collins Class sustainment program, British submarine expert John Coles acknowledged the progress made at submarine manufacturer ASC in improving productivity and building capability – an achievement subsequently acknowledged by the Defence Minister, David Johnston. To establish a foundation for Australia’s next generation of submarines the priority was to find the right design partner: one that would collaborate proactively with Australian industry. The obvious partner was Kockums – the designers of the Collins Class submarine, based in Sweden.

The problem, until July this year, was that Kockums was at the centre of a bitter dispute between its German owners and Sweden’s Defence Materiel Administration (FMV). Kockums had developed advanced technology for the new A26 submarine (now restarted as the NGU project) in collaboration with FMV but there was disagreement regarding intellectual property and project costs.

The escalation of the Crimean Crisis brought the issue to a head: Russia’s geographic proximity pushed Sweden to take action in defence of its sovereign capability. It needed to regain control of Kockums – a Swedish-owned company until it was acquired by a German competitor in 1999.

Tensions reached new heights on 8 April. At 7.30am, Sweden sent two military vehicles with armed soldiers into the Kockums shipyard in Malmö, southern Sweden. Their mission was to seize top-secret equipment; they completed their mission as site managers scrambled to lock the gates.

The dawn raid was seen as a key moment in the protracted “divorce” between Kockums and its owners – there was long-standing speculation that the Germans had acquired the company to control its market position and undermine the development of Swedish submarine technology. Finally, on 22 July the owners signed a deal with the Swedish Defence company, Saab, to sell the company. The Swedes had regained control.

As the drama unfolded and was finally resolved, the international community watched with interest. In Canberra, there was growing concern, given pre-election commitments to manufacture and sustain Australia’s next fleet of submarines “in country”. The Collins Class had proved itself to be of superior design, ideally suited to Australia’s unique climatic and strategic circumstances.

It had a record of strong performance in war-game scenarios, it had proven its superior stealth against the US Navy. The Collins Class design had given Australia a strategic naval advantage but with Kockums temporarily out of the picture, the Department of Defence had to devise an alternative plan.

From a strategic design perspective, the decision to enter discussions with Japan was, without doubt, the right move. Australia was keen to advance free trade negotiations and build an even stronger relationship with Prime Minister Shinzo Abe; there was also pressure from the US to forge closer links with Japan.

While an “off-the-shelf” solution would never work – Japanese submarines are designed for use in the northern hemisphere, not southern waters and with different transit requirements and so on – the discussions provided an opportunity to engage more closely with a key regional neighbour. They also provided an invaluable opportunity to debate and clarify costs, specifications and priorities.

The next step, in strategic design terms, is to undertake a contested definition study. Now that Australia has clarified its position, and its specific requirements, it can invite the four front runners to submit a response to its needs. Japan is among them alongside France, Germany and Sweden – now that Kockums has been returned to Swedish ownership.

Through a national debate that has effectively engaged with industry, academia, government and the Australian people the Department of Defence now has a much clearer set of priorities. The future submarine must be economically viable. It must meet Australia’s strategic intent. It must defend our national interests both on operations and in its design, manufacture and sustainment. It must demonstrate foresight and strategic design, contributing to innovation and national security. A strategic approach will now require that Japan, Germany, France and Sweden participate in a formal study to respond to Australia’s requirements.

This year’s series of visits to Japan by Warren King, the CEO of DMO, take on a new significance when seen in this light. Prime Minster Tony Abbott’s discussions with Prime Minister Abe also assume a different purpose - they can be seen as strategic engagement.

From an academic perspective, both have manipulated a complex set of circumstances to Australia’s benefit. Their next move will determine whether Australia continues to hold its position, securing strategic advantage.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Rammpal »

"...As you can see the article does not mention Russia, the SSN 21, Akula or the word "acoustic"..."

Ohlala, gurudev, my humble apologies.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nssn/

"..The noise level of the Virginia is equal to that of the US Navy Seawolf, SSN 21, with a lower acoustic signature than the Russian Improved Akula Class and fourth-generation attack submarines. To achieve this low acoustic signature, the Virginia incorporates newly designed anechoic coatings, isolated deck structures and a new design of propulsor..."

:eek:

Saaaree :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

Flippin heck it took you so long to re read what you had posted? Wow :eek: :eek:
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by kit »

http://www.janes.com/article/65029/anal ... rs-for-a26

Saab Kockums and the Swedish government are searching for partners in the A26 programme.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

The carrier conundrum. Nuclear or conventional propulsion for our next CV? Take your pick.

http://swarajyamag.com/defence/blueprin ... ercarriers
Blueprint To Bluewater: The Indian Navy’s Journey From Carriers To Supercarriers
Rakesh Krishnan Simha - October 30, 2016, 1:00 pm
Shares 675

Blueprint To Bluewater: The Indian Navy’s Journey From Carriers To Supercarriers
SNAPSHOT
If India is to face off against the threat from foreign navies, it needs carriers – several of them. A navy without airpower is a sitting duck.

The Indian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 states that the future fleet will be based on three carrier battle groups (CBGs).

Although the old dream of making the Indian Ocean an India’s ocean is no longer part of the navy’s doctrine, dominating the blue waters is part of the plan.

In August 1947, within a week of India attaining independence from British rule, an Outline Plan for the reorganisation and development of the Indian Navy was prepared by Naval Headquarters. In its preamble, the plan paper said:

India will never attain security or pre-eminence till she is in a position to maintain her position against every aggressor....A navy commanding the respect of the world is not a luxury for her but a vital necessity.
Two years later, naval strategist Keshav Vaidya wrote in The Naval Defence of India that the newly independent country should try to be the undisputed power over the waters of the Indian Ocean. The Indian Navy, he emphasised, should become “an invincible navy to defend not only her coast but her distant oceanic frontiers”.

The lofty ambitions of India’s strategists were, however, brought down to earth by the political leadership which was adamantly opposed to beefing up the military. Barring a few, like Deputy Prime Minister Sardar Patel, who supported a “strong navy”, the Gandhians, including Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, had an aversion for the military.

Luckily for India, Britain had a partly built aircraft carrier – a legacy of the Second World War – which the Royal Navy was looking to offload. Governor General Louis Mountbatten prevailed upon Nehru to buy the 16,000-tonne vessel. Mountbatten hoped that by offering it a British carrier, the Indian Navy could be persuaded into becoming the bulwark of a Commonwealth naval alliance. Plus, the Royal Navy would pocket some cash in the bargain.

India did not toe the line on alliances with its former oppressors, but it agreed to buy the vessel. So, instead of being consigned to the scrapyard, the warship was completed and commissioned into the Indian Navy on 4 March 1961 as the INS Vikrant. And that’s how India achieved the miracle of a poor country acquiring an aircraft carrier.

Carrier strategy pays off

The Indian Navy’s early investment in the carrier paid handsome dividends. In the 1971 War, INS Vikrant, supported by just two warships, bottled up the Pakistan Navy’s eastern wing in Chittagong harbour. More than 97,000 Pakistan Army troops were planning to escape on board these ships, which were to make a dash for the open sea. Vikrant’s vigil – and the sinking of several Pakistani merchant vessels by its jets – hastened the largest capitulation of troops since General Paulus’ Sixth Army surrendered in Stalingrad in 1943.

The Indian Navy received another bonus, thanks to its flagship. In November 1971, well over a month before the declaration of war, the Pakistan Navy had despatched an American-gifted submarine named PNS Ghazi – with the mission to sink the Indian carrier.

When Indian intelligence got wind of the Ghazi plan, the navy hid the carrier in the Andaman & Nicobar Islands – over 1,500 km from the mainland. The navy then built an elaborate ruse that lured the Ghazi. First, it positioned its largest warship, the INS Rajput, off Visakhapatnam harbour and created heavy radio traffic that mimicked the Vikrant’s. Secondly, the port authorities placed huge orders for food and supplies that would normally be required when a ship of Vikrant’s capacity sails in.

The Ghazi took the bait and started laying mines in the port’s channel. But the hunter became the hunted on 4 December that year, when it blew up and sank in the harbour. While the Indian Navy claimed that it was INS Rajput’s depth charges that caused the explosion, the Pakistanis say their submarine was destroyed by an internal explosion. Whatever caused the explosion, the Indian Navy definitely got good bang for its carrier.

No power like sea power

Despite the proliferation of new carrier missiles from Russia and China – which has spent billions on the development of a ballistic anti-carrier weapon – the carrier continues to inspire awe. “The aircraft carrier in the 21st century continues to remain the most conspicuous symbol of a nation’s maritime power,” says former Commodore and author C Uday Bhaskar. “Nothing projects raw combat power like these citadels of maritime power.”

In the 2009 report ‘China’s Maritime Rights and Navy’, Senior Captain Li Jie, an analyst at the Chinese navy’s strategic think tank, Naval Research Institute, agrees: “No great power that has become a strong power has achieved this without developing carriers.”

If India is to face off against the threat from foreign navies, it needs carriers – several of them. Providing security cover to its maritime trade with land-based airpower solutions would require a huge number of aircraft. It would also require treaties – that may be revoked – for landing on foreign bases.

A navy without airpower is a sitting duck. Says Bhaskar:

Can India afford not to have aircraft carriers for air-defence and anti-submarine roles? The survival of the surface fleet in the modern world is highly suspect without carriers for their defence. Technology has altered the equation and the carrier is (now) needed to protect the surface fleet.
But despite Vikrant’s stellar performance, India’s political leadership did not shed its continental mindset. No effort was made to construct a carrier at home, and India continued to rely on hand-me-down carriers from Britain (INS Viraat in 1987) and Russia (INS Vikramaditya in 2013).

The upshot: the navy is down to a single carrier after Viraat sailed into retirement last year. Worse, the sole carrier, Vikramaditya, is currently in dry dock, which means if war breaks out, the navy will have to manage without its 44,000-tonne flagship.

New breed of carriers

The Indian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 for the first time states that the future fleet will be based on three carrier battle groups (CBGs). This means if one is undergoing refit or repairs, there will always be two carriers available – for the eastern and western seaboards.

The first of India’s new-generation carriers is the 40,000-tonne Vikrant class IAC I, or Indigenous Aircraft Carrier I. It will feature STOBAR (short takeoff but arrested recovery) and ski-jumps. The carrier was floated out of its dry dock at Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) on 29 December 2011 and launched on 12 August 2013.

Ship construction involves the following stages: production, keel laying, launch, outfitting, basin trials, contractor sea trials and final machinery trials. Currently, INS Vikrant is at the outfitting stage, and the final bill is estimated at $3.76 billion.

While INS Vikrant will be smaller than India’s current flagship, INS Vikramaditya, the next vessel, INS Vishal (IAC II), will be a 65,000-tonne beast. This new supercarrier will purportedly feature significant design changes, including possible nuclear propulsion and catapult-assisted takeoff but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) and the electromagnetic aircraft launch systems (EMALS) from the United States (US).

In the summer of 2015, Russia, France, the United Kingdom (UK) and the US received requests for technical and costing proposals regarding the design of India’s new aircraft carrier. The two top contenders are Russia and France, given that India operates aircraft from both countries. However, the dark horse appears to be the US, which could nose ahead with its EMALS.

Russian Shtorm

Russia has offered its Shtorm supercarrier design. Powered by either nuclear or conventional propulsion, the ship can remain at sea for 120 days and sail up to 30 knots or 55kph. It can accommodate a crew of up to 5,000 and can carry 80-90 deck-based aircraft.

There are two problems with this offer. One, Russia has never built a nuclear-powered carrier before, although it has plenty of experience in building other types of large nuclear-powered vessels, including submarines. Second, the 1,082 foot long Shtorm will have a displacement of 1,00,000 tonnes, which is well over India’s initial requirement. Does India need such overkill?

Going by the past record, Russia may have the edge. Not only does Shtorm dovetail with the ‘Make in India’ pitch, but Moscow also has a good record of transferring cutting-edge technologies to Indian manufacturers.

Says Russian military analyst Ilya Kramnik:

It is important to eliminate the Americans from the possibility of participating in this project. All that Washington can really do under these circumstances is to try to push India to abandon the idea of using a nuclear power plant, and then attempt to sell New Delhi a converted boiler and turbine aircraft carrier of the ‘Kitty Hawk’ variety. The option is possible, especially if India decides it needs to save money.
According to Kramnik, the US usually refuses to work in consortiums with competitors, especially Russians. “The situation, in which India suddenly would place MiG-29K fighter jets on an American-built carrier, is almost impossible,” he explains.

It can be assumed with a high degree of probability that, in accordance with the longstanding tradition of the Indian military, none of these bidders will be chosen as the “sole” contractor. Rather, a multilateral consortium will be built, in which each participant will play a well-defined role.
American pitch

It would be unprecedented if the US goes ahead with the transfer of EMALS technology to India, which is not a close ally like the UK, Norway or Italy.

However, the US appears to be seriously wooing India. Chief of US Naval Operations, Admiral John Richardson, says India and the US are making progress in talks on the joint development of an aircraft carrier, potentially the biggest military collaboration between them.

Richardson said the two sides had held talks on a range of issues relating to the next-generation Indian carrier from its design to construction. "We are making very good progress, I am very pleased with the progress to date and optimistic we can do more in the future. That’s on a very solid track," Richardson said while in India in February this year.

India and the US have formed a joint working group on aircraft carrier technology cooperation, but there is no clarity on whether the Americans will offer EMALS technology for Indian aircraft carriers.

EMALS could be a game changer. Defence News explains:

Using electromagnetic technology, the system delivers substantial improvements in system maintenance, increased reliability and efficiency, higher-launch energy capacity, and more accurate end-speed control, with a smooth acceleration at both high and low speeds. By allowing linear acceleration over time, electromagnetic catapults also place less stress on the aircraft.
In simple language, carrier-based aircraft operate under suboptimal capacity because of their short takeoffs. For instance, the stated combat range of a MiG-29K is 700km, but in real combat it would be a lot lower because it cannot take off with a full tank of gas. EMALS makes life easier for navy pilots.

Vikrant and Vishal: Less than smooth sailing

While talks proceed on the future carrier, Vikrant’s construction has not kept in step. A report tabled by the Comptroller & Auditor General (CAG) on 26 July 2016 says the programme has suffered delays because of drastic revisions right through the carrier’s timeline.

While the Defence Ministry and the Indian Navy insist the ship’s final delivery timeline is December 2018, the CAG report, ‘Union Defence Services Navy and Coast Guard’, says the delivery of the carrier with completion of all activities is likely to be achieved only by 2023.

A key area where things went wrong is General Arrangement or GA – the document based on which the ship is designed and constructed. The GA drawings principally represent volumes, spaces, compartments, bulkheads, hull forms, decks and main equipment.

According to the CAG report,

There were more than 4270 changes to the GA document by the Indian Navy and, due to design changes, more than 1150 modifications in hull structure had been done by the shipyard. Frequent modification to the hull structure was one of the main reasons for a delay of approximately two years in hull fabrication.
Steep learning curve

CSL clearly lacked the experience required to handle a project of such a gigantic scale. A technical audit of the shipyard carried out by France’s DCN discovered the shipyard had “never built warships and was not used to the complexity of their designs, hull and systems”.

The shipyard’s organisation was mostly vertical without enough functional links between various departments. “It had no real project management central organisation and was working with many separated departments.”

To adapt CSL to produce an aircraft carrier, DCN prescribed basic proposals with respect to augmentation of the shipyard’s infrastructure, organisation and human resources, which included creation of a shipyard project management team and a liaison team.

CAG observes:

Since CSL was constructing an aircraft carrier for the first time, it was incumbent upon them to fully implement the DCN proposals so as to execute the project within approved timelines.
However, this was not done, and the project management team remained a weak one.

Delays are inevitable because this is India’s first aircraft carrier project. But it really shouldn’t take 24 years to construct a medium-sized aircraft carrier. After all, it takes the US only seven years to authorise, construct and deliver a 1,00,000-tonne carrier with nuclear propulsion.

Nuclear vs conventional

According to Eric Wertheim, the author of Combat Fleets of the World, the odds of India needing the bluewater capability a nuclear carrier would bring, are small. “If you’re looking at regional operations, then I think it makes less sense to do nuclear propulsion,” he told the US Naval Institute.

However, the Maritime Doctrine of 2015 lays out that the India Navy’s strategic vision will no longer be limited to the northern Indian Ocean, but will extend to the southeast Indian Ocean, Red Sea, western coast of Africa and the Mediterranean Sea. The new carriers are not only aimed at countering the growing Chinese presence in the near seas but if needed, the Indian Navy must have the capability to sail out to distant troubled spots.

In terms of gas mileage, conventional aircraft carriers are the biggest guzzlers of fuel. The USS Independence, for instance, consumes well over 5,67,000 litres of fuel a day. An oil-importing country like India can ill afford to burn that much fuel.

Nuclear-powered carriers cost more to build but are more energy-efficient. They can remain at sea for up to a year or more and only need to return to port for crew rotation. They also require less downtime during maintenance as compared with a conventionally powered ship.

In a paper titled ‘Nuclear Propulsion For Naval Platforms: The Navy's Perspective’, Captain Vikram Bora and Commodore K J Singh argue that if India wants to take full advantage of the latest technologies, then nuclear is the way to go. “In the case of large surface combatants like aircraft carriers, nuclear power provides high propulsive power and long endurance, whilst also catering for the requirement of short bursts of very high electric power for aircraft launch systems on certain state of the art platforms,” they say.

“Nuclear propulsion is an area of technology which is essential for any navy aiming for a global presence,” the authors maintain. “The technology has enormous potential, both for surface combatants and submarines.”

On the flip side, decommissioning a nuclear power carrier is a nightmare and can take years, compared with just weeks for a conventional ship. The cost is estimated at $500 million per ship.

Way forward: Look to the past

Since Rig Vedic times up to the last Chola kings, the Indian Ocean was literally India’s ocean. However, in the later half of the previous millennium, India became dominated by land-centric rulers from Central Asia who had little maritime knowledge or interest. Consequently, India yielded control of the sea to the European powers.

However, with the rise of the Marathas in the early eighteenth century, the focus on sea power returned. The Marathas enjoyed many tactical successes against the western navies. Notable among these was the Maratha blockade of British-held Mumbai port that led to the British East India Company ceding a ransom of 8,750 pounds. In the year 1721, the Maratha Navy even defeated a Portuguese-British combined assault on Alibagh.

The Maratha Admiral of the Fleet, Kanhoji Angre, defeated the Western navy of his day. For 33 years until his death in 1729, the Indian fleets remained undefeated. Wrote British historian Charles Kincaid in the History of the Maratha People: “Victorious alike over the English, Dutch and the Portuguese, the Maratha admirals sailed the Arabian Sea in triumph.”

Although the old dream of making the Indian Ocean an India’s ocean is no longer a component of the navy’s doctrine, dominating the blue waters is part of the plan. Or to use former Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat’s words, enhancing India's force projection capability is a “national requirement on the strategic frontier, not at the doorstep”.
Is this a clue of things to come?
http://swarajyamag.com/defence/blueprin ... ercarriers
Russian Firm Likely To Buy Stake From India's ABG Shipyard

ABG has been given a repeat order by the IN for another $80M cadet ship.It is India's largest pvt. yard.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by wig »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 183375.cms

Navy scouting for corvettes under 'Make in India' banner
he Indian Navy is scouting for seven "next generation" heavily armed Corvettes that will come as a boost to the domestic industry since it will be a 'Make in India' project running into several thousand crore of rupees.
Private shipyards like the Reliance Defence and Engineering Limited (RDEL) are likely to respond to the Navy's Request for Information (RFI) along with state-run shipyards.
"We will be pitching for it strongly. We have made different types of warships in our shipyard and we are the only ones to have delivered earlier than schedule," chairman and manging director of Goa Shipyard, Rear Admiral Shekhar Mital (Retd) told PTI. The corvettes will be capable of carrying out surface-to-surface missile attacks, anti-submarine warfare operations, and the navy wants the ships to be delivered from 2023.
While the exact value of the project is yet to be determined since it all depends on the kind of weapon platform that will be on board, sources said it is safe to assume that each corvette would cost about Rs 1,500 to Rs 1,800 crore.
The criteria for the new vessels are largely similar to the Khukri-class boats they will replace — 4,000 nautical mile range, maximum and sustained top speeds of 25-27 knots.
The 120-meter-long single hull corvettes, or small warships, will have low radar, acoustic, magnetic, visual and infra-red signatures.
The ships should able to carry a minimum of 8 surface-to-surface missiles and engage sea-skimming missiles, flying 3-5 metres above sea level, upto maximum speed of Mach 3 (three times the speed of sound).
Active towed array sonar, two light-weight torpedo launchers should be on board fitted to the corvettes, a navy document says.
There are at present at least 45 ships and submarines under construction in India.
India has already built four anti-submarine warfare corvettes under Project-28, the first of which was handed over to the navy in 2014. This was built by Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Manish_Sharma »

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/09/ ... oyers.html

Image
The slides you’re looking at here happen to be the first officially-released schematics on the Project 15 Bravo stealth destroyers under build for the Indian Navy. The Directorate of Naval Design (DND), which briefed reporters today about the launch of the second vessel in the class, Mormugao, has provided the first detailed look at the P15B, christened the Visakhapatnam class, as first reported by Livefist last year. Livefist had scooped the first image of the lead of the class.

The Visakhapatnam-class represents a terrific step ahead for Indian shipbuilding and establishes once again the country’s prowess in designing, developing, building and fielding frontline surface combatants. More on the class and the 39 other ships being build across the country for the Indian Navy soon.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

http://www.defencenews.in/article/GOI-t ... ndian_Navy
GOI to take call on LPD's, US-2 aircrafts and 4 Stealth Frigates for the Indian Navy

Monday, November 07, 2016
By: Business Standard
The Defence Ministry is likely to allow opening of the commercial bids for four Landing Platform Docks (LPDs) on Monday, an over $3 billion project for which two Indian private shipyards are vying under the 'Make in India' initiative.

Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), which is set to meet on Monday, is also likely to give the nod to Indian Navy's other plan to acquire 12 amphibious aircraft from Japan, which are likely to cost about Rs 10,000 crore.

While this was never part of the priority planning of the navy, it is likely that India and Japan may agree on the project during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's upcoming visit to Tokyo.

However, the main takeaway from the meeting would be the new blacklisting policy, as told by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar last month.

Blanket blacklisting policy of the earlier UPA government has resulted in significant reductions in competition, particularly for army programs with four leading suppliers blacklisted.

The new policy is likely to be a mixture of heavy fines and graded blacklisting. The new policy would also allow many of the stuck programmes, like the heavy weight torpedoes for the six Scorpene submarines, to move ahead with clarity.

Sources said other issues on the agenda will be a formal nod to the Indian Air Force's programme to acquire 83 new version of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, a number which has been publicly stated by the Defence Ministry earlier.

One of the key projects will be the one for LPDs. Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Reliance Defence and Engineering Limited (RDEL), formerly Pipavav, are gunning for it.

Only these two shipyards had cleared the financial and technical examination started last year.
A third vendor, ABG Shipyard, which has a tie up with a US firm, could not clear the financial examination.
L&T has a tie-up with Navantia of Spain, and RDEL with DCNS of France.
The navy floated the tender in 2013 for production of four LPDs, and bids were sent to domestic shipyards, L&T, RDEL, and ABG Shipyard.
Under the programme, two LPDs will be built by a private shipyard, and then state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) will build the remaining two LPDs at the same cost.

However, sources said the DAC will also review the performance of HSL on Fleet Support Ship program where it has missed major milestones.
Whether HSL should be awarded two out of the four LPDs will also be part of this discussion, sources said.
*If it has delayed on the fleet support ships it should not be listed for the LPDs which are more sophisticated warships.

Indo-Russia project for four new state-of-the-art stealth frigates will also come up for discussion.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Hitesh »

Any truth to this:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2016/11/ ... ll-be.html

I do not agree with the approach by IN. We need to go for another Vikrant type carrier. We can go for the nuclear design ship at a later point but we need to make sure that we have 3 carriers immediately.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by VKumar »

IMHO should pursue both, a 40K conventional and a 65K nuclear. Conventional to be available by 2025. Nuclear by 2035.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Prem »

http://thediplomat.com/2016/11/confirme ... ign=buffer
Confirmed: India’s Next Aircraft Carrier Will Be Nuclear
The Indian Navy’s latest aircraft carrier, the 65,000-ton supercarrier INS Vishal, the second ship of the Vikrant-class, will be powered by a nuclear reactor, according to anonymous Indian Navy sources. Furthermore, the INS Vishal will be able to accommodate up to 55 aircraft (35 fixed-wing combat aircraft and 20 rotary wing aircraft), launched using a catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) aircraft launch system, incorporating U.S. defense contractor’s General Atomics’ new electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) technology, the Business Standard reports on November 7.Given the incorporation of these new technologies, the Indian Navy source also revealed that the aircraft carrier will not enter service until the 2030s. (Originally, India planned to induct the carrier in the 2020s.) It is still unclear when the construction of the new warship will begin.The Indian Navy’s preference for the CATOBAR aircraft launch system indicates that the new warship will in all likelihood not carry MiG-29K Fulcrum fighter jets, the current mainstay of India’s naval combat aviation. This will open up opportunities for competitors, in particular France and the United States, to push their naval combat aircraft. As I reported previously
The domestically designed and produced Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), next to being deployed aboard the INS Vikrant, India’s first indigenously built aircraft carrier, is also slated to serve on the INS Vishal, according to Indian Navy officials. Two naval prototypes of the Tejas LCA successfully conducted test flights from a so-called Shore Based Test Facility—a full-scale model of an aircraft carrier deck—in Goa earlier in the year. Nevertheless, senior Indian defense officials have repeatedly stated that the Indian Navy’s naval combat aviation requirements cannot be covered by domestic production.
Selecting the right aircraft will be critical for India’s naval power.“The type of aircraft stationed aboard the new supercarrier will heavily influence the new vessel’s design and is thus of critical importance,” as I explained elsewhere. In the middle of 2015, Russia, France, the United Kingdom, and the United States received requests for “technical and costing proposals” by the Indian Navy’s Naval Design Bureau regarding the design of its new aircraft carrieIndia has no experience with nuclear propulsion in a surface combat vessel, so U.S.-India or France-India technical cooperation on nuclear technology is a possibility. However, among other things, this would require changes to current U.S. nuclear policy. India and the United States have formed a Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation (JWGACTC) as part of the so-called bilateral Defense Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI). According to publicly available information, the talks were largely confined to the the possibility of incorporating EMALS technology on the INS Vishal and did not discuss nuclear propulsion.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karthik S »

The point of having CATOBAR will be lost if we deploy light fighters, we need to have heavy fighter like Rafale or F-18 to operate from Vishal if it's nuke powered and has CATOBAR.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sankum »

By the time frame 2030-35 Cato bar carrier is available naval AMCA and naval FGFA should be in service.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by JTull »

sankum wrote:By the time frame 2030-35 Cato bar carrier is available naval AMCA and naval FGFA should be in service.
I'd bet my bottom dollar that even AF AMCA won't be in service by then. Also, I have not heard of a Naval version of FGFA even being planned.

F-35 or Rafale-M are more likely.

French just retired their light Super Etendards from CDG which is nuclear and has catapult.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Vivek K »

By 2035 HAL would be gone! The air force would have destroyed local aviation capability and so F35 or whatever import is on offer will be bought for trillions!
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

2035.May not be around by then.In the 10+ years it is going to take to build it,anti-carrier weapons would've been developed twice over! The future is stealthy subs armed with long-range munitions,new successors to Shkval torpedoes,super and hypersonic missiles,and possessing UUVs and UCAVs too,which are also armed or can be used as kamikaze weapons. SoKo is going to have by 2030 27,yes 27,new SSKs,all German in origin.We will be lucky if we will by then possess 12 new SSKs,including our Scorpenes whose capabilities have been compromised,and another 6 SSNs.Pak will have at least a dozen Chinese subs plus its 4 Agosta 90-Bs. Replicating another Vikrant class CV would've been the best foot forward but the IN appears to have been seduced by N-power,EMALS,etc.That could've been kept for IAC-3.12 "Useless" US-2s with no mil capability whatsoever are being bought from Japan (a gesture of solidarity!) for over $1B instead of more urgently required subs.More's the pity.
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Q.

Post by Philip »

Indonesia acquiring 3 more subs.Whether they'll be German U-boats built in SoKo or Russian is the Q.Kilos would come in at half the price but can they operate two types? With so many nations acquiring subs as their top priority,the GOI/MOD have to acquire within the next 5 years at least 8-10 subs to make up the min fleet numbers as our 9 kilos ,most being upgraded ,as well as the 4 venerable U-boats also dating from the '80s,are in the twilight of their careers.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016 ... rines.html
Indonesia to purchase three more submarines
Nani Afrida Nani Afrida
The Jakarta Post

Jakarta | Thu, November 10, 2016 | 12:33 pm

Indonesia to purchase three more submarines
Workers inspect newly installed concrete piles for PAL Indonesia’s submarine construction in Surabaya on April 15. (The Jakarta Post/Wahyoe Boediwardhana)

three-more-submarines-purchase
After ordering three submarines from South Korea, Indonesia plans to buy three more as part of the country’s minimum essential force (MEF) program.


The Committee for Defense Industry Policy (KKIP) said Indonesia had yet to decide the producer of the submarines.

“The first, second and third submarines were developed in South Korea,” KKIP corporation and marketing department head Rear Adm (ret) Yussuf Sollichien told The Jakarta Post in Jakarta on Thursday.

He said Indonesia had yet to decide whether it would purchase the three submarines from South Korea.

Indonesia has ordered three types of 209/1400 Chang Bogo- Class diesel attack submarines from Korean defense company Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine engineering (DSME).

The Navy currently operates two German-made submarines, the KRI Cakra ( 401 ) and KRI Nenggala ( 402 ), which were built in the 1980s. The submarines are due to be decommissioned in 2020.

Besides three new submarines, Indonesia also plans to purchase guided missile frigates and fast missile boats.

“Indonesia doesn’t want to downgrade the operational and technical requirements, so we will buy from foreign countries. However, we need the transfer of technology [TOT] as that is mandated by the law,” Yussuf said. (bbn)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

^ Original three subs from Korea, Korea has already launched 2 of them. They are Chang Bogo class ( Type 209 ). Shame we abandoned them, MDL could probably be building those for Indonesia.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Cosmo_R »

"The new policy is likely to be a mixture of heavy fines and graded blacklisting. The new policy would also allow many of the stuck programmes, like the heavy weight torpedoes for the six Scorpene submarines, to move ahead with clarity."

Common sense has never been p[art and parcel of our procurement policy and even this is half-a##ed. What they should do that is self enforcing is to borrow the concepts behind Dodd-Frank and simply make this part of the tender (and pass the corresponding law in India) :

1. If you bribe someone to get a contract, we will fine you heavily—20% + of the contract price but we won't ban your company.
2. If your company is found guilty of offering bribes, we will prosecute the top 3 executives of your parent company for criminal activity, name them, shame them and pursue the prosecution across the globe.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karthik S »

Has anyone heard about Project 18 destroyers?

https://m.reddit.com/r/GlobalPowers/com ... destroyer/
Project 18-class destroyers are planned class of next generation destroyers of Indian Navy. The destroyers are of the type: stealth guided missile destroyer. For the project Kakinada Shipyard in collaboration with Mazagon Dock and L&T Shipbuilding will lay keel for 9,000 tons of displacement of vessel. Project 18-class destroyers will be equipped with advanced systems such as electromagnetic guns, laser-based CIWS, advanced AESA and PESA radars, and active and passive array sonars.

For the project, DRDO in collaboration with Bharat Electronics will be designing next generation of radar systems to be incorporated into the planned 18-class. The already developed AMDS will be worked on further. The AESA and PESA radars will see extended ranges, and possible merger into one multi-band radar. The destroyer will also have an X-band optronic mast detector radar.

Project 18-class destroyers will be able to carry enough space for a single utility helicopter. The destroyers will be equipped with advanced UCAVs and UAVs, a possible compact version to be deployed on the destroyers of the EMALS is being worked out.

The missiles vessels will see their armament equipped with ballistic missiles and hypersonic BrahMos II missile. A next generation point missile defence capable of launching BrahMos II will be worked on.

The electromagnetic gun is being researched in the DRDO labs with BEL partaking in the programme for the gun fire control systems. The destroyer is expected to fit a 64 MJ version of electromagnetic gun. Munitions for the gun are being researched on as well.

Electromagnetic gun replacing the famed Otobreda of Indian Navy, will be supported with laser based CIWS, in works in LASTEC of DRDO. The warship will be deployed with 300 kW of laser system, capable of shooting down the aerial threats. The planned CIWS will draw inspiration from the present Phalnax CIWS and have its own radar. Indian Army has also expressed interests in the project, for it wishes to mount laser based systems on its combat vehicles. Additionally, the warship will also be equipped with small 100 kW laser based weapon systems with faster charging rates and continuous rate of application.

Improvements in the planned destroyer require ample power, the destroyer's propulsion system is planned to based on IEP. L&T with DRDO will further work on long researched DRDO's programme of marine propulsion — GATET. Planned gas turbines will deliver power up to 36 MW, destroyer will be equipped with the two of planned gas turbines delivering power of 76 MW, in conjugation with two diesel generators of 10 MW each and two electric propulsion motors of 20 MW. TASL which has designed platform, bridge and combat management systems in the past will work on diesel generators and motors.

The project aims to launch the lead ship of the 18-class by 2028, and planned commissioning in 2029. Being the project of such scale, Ministry of Defence has appropriated funds of $1.5 billion for the annual budget.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Bheeshma »

Ballistic and cruise missile?? Which amateur wrote that piece? :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Manish_Sharma »

But Shaurya/Agni can be launched from a surface vehicle no? Its a big boy of 9000 tons.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karthik S »

Aside from such details, I've not heard Project 18, I assumed next line of destroyers will be called P-15c. Considering that 2 of 15b have already been launched, the navy would have started work on next line of destroyers.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Pratyush »

Good to know that the Navy is thinking in terms of large destroyer. But please go beyond the token order sizes and have a steady drum beat wth 3 to 5 ships annually for 20 years.

I will be happy if the drumbeat started with existing line of ships . And carried over to the next class.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by g.sarkar »

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17626/ ... CXxGkQrKM8
India Puts On Hold US$1.4 Billion Deal For 12 Japanese US-2 Aircraft
India’s Defense ministry has chosen to wait on making any decision on a proposal worth over Rs 10,000 crore (US$1.4 billion) for acquiring 12 Japanese amphibious aircraft for the Navy.
The goverment is seeking further clarification in the project, India today reported Thursday.
“There is a view in the Ministry that there is still need for further discussion on the requirement of these planes for the Navy and what roles would they play in the maritime force," an official said.
The Navy presently has plans to provide a detailed presentation to the government on how the planes would be useful for the force and bring in more clarity on the issue.
The deal was also taken up for discussion during the recent meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.
The Navy has been pushing for the acquisition of these amphibious planes which can land on both sea and runways but the Defence Ministry’s acquisition wing has not been very keen for procuring it.
......
Gautam
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