Understanding the United States of America (USA) - IV

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Nov 2016 21:55

IMHO, loony right is as dangerous as loony left. This is not to dismiss the Trump administration before it has begun.

Lets see. Perhaps an year in office will clear the picture.

bharotshontan · Post by **bharotshontan** » 15 Nov 2016 21:58

When I lurked this forum for years, I enjoyed reading inputs of Indians with strategic insights (a rarity in our people) and how they viewed global dynamics. Sadly I'm seeing a lot of people since this election getting vested into one side versus the other. Not sure what is going on here. We really don't have a dog in any of this. Understanding is the point of these threads, not taking sides....

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Nov 2016 22:10

In the world we live in (global village) far off events do matter. Neo-cons (Right wing nut jobs) started the Gulf war, destroyed Iraq and created the conditions for the rise of ISIS (Even if you don't believe ISIS was created directly by the US). Loony left promotes and sponsors the global Social Justice agenda including open borders, regime change, terrorist rights, etc. I could cite other issues with both sides.

So we do have a stake in what happens in the US the major exporter of these nutty ideas these past 30-40 years.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Nov 2016 22:14

I'm not seeing anyone taking a loony left side, seems that any challenge to the great Donald is perceived as being in the loony left?
really folks? this is exactly identical to what is happening on FB and other social media
who's zooming who?

habal · Post by **habal** » 15 Nov 2016 22:21

there is a concept called "Rise of the demigods", wherein basically socially popular people with tremendous pull over public, financial clout, star persona/appeal are used to make public swallow bitter pills more easily and pass more tricky laws that an ordinary mortal may find difficult to get done. So I had a suspiscion Trump would always win that contest over Hillary. Thus, he is no pushover from very start.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2016 22:22

Dems and media are on attack pre declaring ppl as unacceptable. Sorry but they have to suck it up breitbart included. Ppl in glasshouse throwing stones

habal · Post by **habal** » 15 Nov 2016 22:24

Trump could have easily avoided needless controversy by keeping more controversial appointments after he takes office.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Nov 2016 22:24

sorry - this is a two way street - both sides are doing the same thing

someone on fb posted pics of 2012 elections with effigy Obama being hanged/burnt, etc. - bogus news about law abiding reps and rioting (hint: black and anarchist) dems... we are all still being played

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 15 Nov 2016 22:30

In any society,the right wing based on ethnic identity and majoritarian impulses has greater leeway and freedom to get away with extremism,stereotyping and demonising.Thats unfortunately part of human DNA,atleast until now.

bharotshontan · Post by **bharotshontan** » 15 Nov 2016 22:33

It isn't that much of a global village. Stirring up shit 12 time zones away by promoting and funding radical ideological groups while at home enjoying fruits of progressive liberal democracy, these two are not exactly opposite to each other. They are both part of a coherent methodology. I'd rather India be peaceful center of global economy with 30% GDP share, open borders from Israel to Philippines, socially-liberal people transacting in what matters at the end of the day, and to balance that in the planet we fund some extremist Catholic group in Colombia that goes around beheading people. I'm just saying. Both loony-left/loony-right in US are contributors to Western hegemony at the end of the day. We should rejoice in their faultlines getting exposed or getting weak/incompetent leadership (not stating DT or anyone else is).

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 15 Nov 2016 22:35

The whites particularly-the anglo american elites pretended to be beyond these primeveal emotions.The truth is they have been/are as guilty as others(if not more) in the past/present and more pertinently,despite their clever propogaandu about freedom etc,the mask has fallen in the present.

LokeshC · Post by **LokeshC** » 15 Nov 2016 22:50

I have to say here that I am no Trump fan. Infact I bet on Hillary to win before the elections. After the elections however, I started looking into what made Trump win and that is what has made me a fan of his strategies to win the election (not of any other aspect). He went at it like a shrewd chess player, playing multiple boards and and simply outplayed everyone of his opponents. I have to give him that.

Unkil is a "crusader for the good", the "good" is defined by whatever unkil wants it to be. This has been a consistent theme and is one of the bedrocks of umrikan exceptionalism. It has remained the same, from Andrew Jackson to Jimmy Carter, from Polk to Ombaba. These people have as much variance in them as there could be. This crusade has remained the same regardless of which loons get elected to the COTUS. And I believe it will be the same under Trump and the new COTUS. The average umrikans and the world will have to deal with them just as they have done so in the past. This is not a "singular" event is what I am saying. A blip maybe, but nothing major.

Now coming to the "love" for Trump. Trump is pretty open and brazen. He is also probably sexist, racist and many other things that people have claimed him to be. He makes no qualms about it and he is pretty open about it. Its easy to read him and he tells it like it is. Hillary would have held the same views but she hides it extremely well (read about some of her ex campaign workers travails for example). That quality in Trump is a refreshing change and I have to give him that even if he might hate me for my skin color.

The other aspect why many of people out here "love" Trump is because he has faced the same enemity from MSM as Modi. All of us on BRF have been deep cynics of the MSM, and rightfully so, but this election made it clear that the MSM is the same everywhere. What it then does to us is that we identify with the targets of MSM, as we have "trained" ourselves to be cynical of any and every MSM views.

Thus if MSM calls Trump sexist, we doubt it and get angry. The underlying concern is really not whether Trump is sexist or not, it is this: "These mofos in the MSM are at it again, and I am sure the opposite must be true". It really has nothing to do with Trump.

I can make a similar case with why we are reacting the way we are to the loony left. We have I think developed a soft corner to the right, and a bit of a blind eye towards the loony right, and yes they are loony and they do have a militia as my dear friend TSJ likes to claim. I know a few personally here in Montana and they are no joke, but I have not seem them go beserk. Yet. (The bundy clan did try and got their behinds handed over to them by the feds. But the Bundy clan is nothing compared to whats out there)

MSM has made the world into a parallel universe: "Its opposite universe" folks.

That said: One cannot compare Modi and Trump other than this narrow aspect of being victims of MSM, even in that area: Modi had really no money or tools to fight the MSM and he was a target for more than a decade.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 15 Nov 2016 22:54

Should California, Oregon and Washington join Canada?

Unclear why this type of talk springs up. Used to be Texas would threaten to leave, now there's these states.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Nov 2016 23:14

was reading that trump himself is not a racist - but he is more than happy to use it as a tool to gain power - he will and has successfully identified what was going to sell this year and has enlisted the people who can harness that power

the more dangerous people are the ones who are the idealogues behind the movement and all the fringes that support them

bundy boys got aquited right...? that tells you a lot (compare contrast with Dakota pipeline protests)

yes the mask is off, and many desis in unkil land are seeing it for the first time - and that is the rage many on BRF are feeling - and it is directed at the desis who are maybe 10 years their senior who arrived in massa at a different era and did their time and the hard yards doing different things to most of you.

I guess I have always seen beneath the mask - so none of this is a surprise to me

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 15 Nov 2016 23:32

Miranda Devine
The Daily Telegraph
November 12 2016.
Australia

[snip]

And so, of course, the Left had a massive tantrum which exposed its ghastliness, its entitled, hate-filled, self-obsessed intolerance.

Assassination threats filled -social media, including from a Guardian journalist, who promptly deleted her account.

Shocked media clowns, such as the newly minted Senator Derryn Hinch, compared Trump's -victory with the 9/11 -terrorist attacks.

The sore losers rioted in the streets and burned Trump in effigy, chanting "Dump Trump" and "Not my President".

They blindly trashed their own patch, the cities that voted for Clinton.

They burned the flag, broke -windows, smashed police cars, blocked traffic, beat up -suspected Trump supporters and faked hate crimes, thus confirming the -wisdom of each and every Trump vote.

If these are the people who hate Trump, then whose side are you on? My enemy's enemy is my friend.

More confirmation that America made the right decision came from the jazz hands and trigger-warning crowd, who plunged into a state of psychic despair, dubbed Trump-ression.

American universities had to deploy therapy dogs and Play-Doh to calm the nerves of the "snowflake" generation.

Cornell University staged a "cry-in to mourn the results of the (election), with school staff providing tissues and hot chocolate," - reported The Wall Street Journal.

At the University of Michigan, fragile students comforted themselves with colouring-in books.

If this is the future of Western civilisation, no wonder Middle America revolted.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 15 Nov 2016 23:45

bharotshontan wrote: Both loony-left/loony-right in US are contributors to Western hegemony at the end of the day. We should rejoice in their faultlines getting exposed or getting weak/incompetent leadership

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Some people here get so carried away with their projections (Hillary == Sonia, CNN/NYT == rNDTV/Chindu) that they lose all sense of perspective, developing sympathies with some completely fabricated myth of a Universal Right Wing Ideology.

They project that because Hillary is as bad as Sonia (which she is), therefore Hillary's opposition must be good like Modi. This is so daftly devoid of logic that it shouldn't pass a grade school level test of critical thinking.

Please internalize: the Left everywhere hates the Right everywhere (including India). The Right in every country hates the Right in every other country too.

The Indian "Right" (if we MUST persist on using a Western labeling system founded in the aftermath of the French Revolution and with NO significance in the Indian context) ...

...the Indian Right is seen by both the International Left, and every other nation's Right, as an enemy. The Left hates us as an ideological competitor staving off their worldwide hegemony. The Right in every other country hates us because we are not of their tribe, and because we will stand in the way of any hegemonistic ambitions their country has towards India. That definitely includes the alt Right.

Desh bhakts stand alone, and will forever do so.

Now back to usual programming, I'm sure.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Nov 2016 23:48

^^^ and thank you saar!

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 15 Nov 2016 23:52

Just by the way. Do some reading on the Alt Right in America.

It's not all white you know. Guess who tends to join its ranks as ideologues and writers?

Deracinated Pakistanis.

Seriously. Dig around, google for Breitbart articles about the Alt Right. I found at least two confirmed Pakis. One deracinated Iranian too. This is apparently what happens to these wannabe-white specimens of human spoilage after Islam squeezes out any identification with pre-Islamic/Indic culture from them, and then self-loathing + convenience squeeze out Islam from them.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Nov 2016 23:54

funny - the right hand man for nigel farrage in the uk independence party is a deracinated paquistani

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 16 Nov 2016 00:02

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 16 Nov 2016 00:13

Rudradev wrote:Just by the way. Do some reading on the Alt Right in America.

It's not all white you know. Guess who tends to join its ranks as ideologues and writers?

Deracinated Pakistanis.

Seriously. Dig around, google for Breitbart articles about the Alt Right. I found at least two confirmed Pakis. One deracinated Iranian too. This is apparently what happens to these wannabe-white specimens of human spoilage after Islam squeezes out any identification with pre-Islamic/Indic culture from them, and then self-loathing + convenience squeeze out Islam from them.

there are also jews and gays in the alt right.

nationalism is not necessarily bound by color, religion, or sex.

it is mainly a matter of class and culture in the US.

the left doesn't get it. nor does the washington establishment nor their tool, the main stream media.

and most certainly not cacademia !!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Nov 2016 00:35

One good thing in this thread is the tag Alt-Left.
This describes the opposition to NaMo.

BTW the Miranda Devine article fits the psecular media in India to a tee.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Nov 2016 01:29

Wash Post:

It was not immediately clear why national security adviser to Trump’s transition team Mike Rogers resigned. Eliot Cohen, a former State and Defense department official in Republican administrations, urged career officials not to serve in a Trump administration and tweeted: “They’re angry, arrogant, screaming ‘you LOST!’… Will be ugly.”

And

5 minutes ago

John McCain: A Trump administration thaw with Russia is ‘unacceptable’

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 16 Nov 2016 02:12

Speaking of Steve Bannon and alt-right, just found out that Andrew Breitbart, the founder of Breitbart news, of which Bannon was CEO, is a Jew. Plus this from Pamela Geller:

Pamela Geller, Breitbart News: As a Jew, I Stand with Steve Bannon

Now the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is claiming that he is anti-Semitic? What? He partnered with Andrew Breitbart — a Jew. He partnered with Larry Solov, another Jew, after Breitbart died. He worked with me — a Jew. He gave proud and fierce Zionists such as Aaron Klein a platform to speak and advance the cause of the Jewish people and the Jewish state. Breitbart Jerusalem was launched under Bannon’s tenure with the Breitbart organization.

The ADL haters’ attacks on Steve Bannon make him an honorary Jew. The ADL has a consistent record of attacks on proud Jews and Zionists. The ADL has attacked Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Joan Rivers, and even Israel itself. The ADL should be sued for fraud. They raise money on the premise that they “fight antisemitism.” On the contrary, they fuel and align with the world’s most vicious Jew-haters. The ADL gave an award to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, despite his long record of anti-Semitic statements.

I have crossed swords for years with this vicious leftist “Jewish” organization — starting with their refusal to recognize the Armenian genocide. If a group claiming to represent the Jews fails to recognize the template, the mass slaughter that inspired Hitler, then we have failed to learn anything from history. In whitewashing the Armenian genocide, the ADL is as culpable as the Islamic perpetrators.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 16 Nov 2016 02:16

Note that for discussions and allegations of people suspected to be neo-Nazis or white nationalists, Jews are the canary in the coal mine as it were..

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Nov 2016 02:35

MurtyB,

Recently there was an article on how Jews in Israel would love Trump, while Jews in the US would hate Trump. Wanted to suggest that we track this dynamics and compare that to Indians and NRI.

BTW, I have been conducting a non sci poll and have come across one NRI who claimed he thought of relationship with India when he cast his vote. And he voted HRC.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 16 Nov 2016 02:37

^^ add 2 votes from my family for this reason.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 16 Nov 2016 02:46

NRao

Yeah, we discussed that here too. Many of us voting Trump did so on the basis of resisting the leftist cabal here that would go after Modi emboldened by an HRC win, and to at least slow their gaining strength, even while being a bit fearful of what might happen to us personally here. But my wife voted for Hillary although for it was just a visceral reaction to the p-grabbing comment. Couldn't convince her otherwise, neither did I try too hard since I can't claim I know what precisely will happen. My feeling is that while nationalist groups won't like each other, they have a common enemy in the global marxist left that they can jointly fight everywhere and agree to stay out of each others way domestically...Ideally. Anyway, knowing how the msm everywhere operates, they will create a lot of FUD here as well, and we need to analyze carefully to separate truth from BS.

bharotshontan · Post by **bharotshontan** » 16 Nov 2016 03:33

Rudradev wrote: Desh bhakts stand alone, and will forever do so.

Wish there was upvote button

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 16 Nov 2016 03:48

From an optics stand point, #naatmuiprejidenz == #modihaters. This ended up creating #antinational tendencies (for real) within a few in India. It is possible this will also happen in massa. That remains to be seen. Any real or perceived weakness would mean massa needing a strong ally. DT has already pissed china. Hope he does not make a U turn here.

I hope modi plays his cards right and strike a good deal with massa.

All the more reason for brf'ers to (have) go(ne) with DT.

bharotshontan · Post by **bharotshontan** » 16 Nov 2016 04:03

I'm not attacking people that simply voted either direction. Going with someone can be of 2 types:
1) Shakuni went with Kauravas
2) Thousands of cannon-fodders went with massa to die in trenches in France in 1914

This forum at least whatever position folks take, I'd hope they value #1 over #2

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 16 Nov 2016 05:19

bharotshontan wrote:I'm not attacking people that simply voted either direction. Going with someone can be of 2 types:
1) Shakuni went with Kauravas
2) Thousands of cannon-fodders went with massa to die in trenches in France in 1914

This forum at least whatever position folks take, I'd hope they value #1 over #2

all fine and dandy but "massa" didn't go to the trenches until 1917. the war ended a year later.

in that one year we still manged to have over 53,000 deaths and 204,000 wounded.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 16 Nov 2016 07:34

So first this happened:

Then CNN covered it bigly:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/us/ohio-s ... index.html

The anti-Trump protester, Timothy Joseph, who graduated from the university in 2014, told CNN after the incident, "This attack demonstrates that we need to build more solidarity to resist the violence that Trump's rhetoric has emboldened."
The protest was organized by a socialist group on campus.

Then for the third and final act, we get this:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... ssary.html

Almost as quickly as it spread across the Internet, social-media posts surfaced suggesting that the attacker, Shane Michael Stanton, has Asperger's syndrome and might have acted more because of his mental state than political animus.

By Tuesday afternoon, Tim Adams, the activist who was knocked down the steps, said he hopes the charges against Stanton will be dropped.

John Stanton, Shane's father, confirmed on Tuesday that his son does have Asperger's, a form of autism characterized by difficulty with social interaction and impulse control. He said the family isn't commenting further on the incident.

Aaaaaand scene!

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 16 Nov 2016 07:55

Bannon's view of Modi:

This Is How Steve Bannon Sees The Entire World

And that center-right revolt is really a global revolt. I think you’re going to see it in Latin America, I think you’re going to see it in Asia, I think you’ve already seen it in India. Modi’s great victory was very much based on these Reaganesque principles, so I think this is a global revolt, and we are very fortunate and proud to be the news site that is reporting that throughout the world.

He is a nationalist who sees other traditionalist nationalists as a good thing.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 16 Nov 2016 08:13

More Bannon.

And he’s a big fan of Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, the Hawaii Democrat who frustrates progressives due to her more right-leaning stances on guns, refugees and Islamic extremism.

“He definitely recognizes populist nationalists around the world,” said a source close to Bannon. “He noticed that before most people did.”

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Nov 2016 08:53

Meanwhile the DNC seems poised to elect the most reprehensible sort of dirtbag (other than Abedin herself) as its leader.

Keith Ellison, MN- one of two Muslim representatives in the US congress. And such a capital-M Muslim he is! Protested against Modi US visa with USCIRF, gave dire warnings at the time of Modi's election as India's PM in 2014, carped against Modi's invitation to address the US Congress, you name it, he $hat it out.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Nov 2016 09:05

MurthyB, you will find that the one Nationalism Breitbart never supported... in fact, consistently and poisonously opposed... has been Tibetan nationalism. I guess ideology goes out the window when you know on which side your dim sum is buttered.

I expect Bannon to drive Trump and Xi together into a tight embrace. He sees himself as an "intellectual" but an insurrectionist one from outside the Ivy League/Georgetown circuit. He would like nothing more than to play Kissinger to Trump's Nixon. And, typically for the West, he will lack the foresight to imagine new players in old roles. Therefore he will try to unify the GOP by balancing Xi against Putin rather than Modi against anybody.

When it comes right down to it the West is very set in terms of (a) its playbooks: Bismarck and Metternich and (b) its prejudiced lens, whereby the Chinese are brilliant innovators and almost peers, while Indians (particularly Hindus) are superstitious coolies to be exploited while being "saved from themselves".

Just watch, Bannon (and Giuliani) will prove NO different in this. The only bright side is they will be anti-Islam relative to HRC; but not necessarily anti-Pakistan (remember, Pakistan is basically a Chinese colony now and that will be factored into the Trump-Xi modus vivendi). That's my take.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Nov 2016 09:06

TSJones wrote:
bharotshontan wrote:I'm not attacking people that simply voted either direction. Going with someone can be of 2 types:
1) Shakuni went with Kauravas
2) Thousands of cannon-fodders went with massa to die in trenches in France in 1914

This forum at least whatever position folks take, I'd hope they value #1 over #2
all fine and dandy but "massa" didn't go to the trenches until 1917. the war ended a year later.

in that one year we still manged to have over 53,000 deaths and 204,000 wounded.

TSJ... in 1914, you lot weren't Massa. Guess again who bharotshontan is talking about.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 16 Nov 2016 09:09

^So a 10% deviation at most, no different from HRC. But what about their economic interests?

Trump has to bring MFG jobs back to US.

That is where the fault line is deeper and difficult to reconcile.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Nov 2016 09:15

Paul, he will bring nothing back to the US. He will assemble teams, announce policies, and when the policies fail, fire the teams and hire new teams. Times 4 seasons of Celebrity Apprentice, White House Edition.

No POTUS- not even Obama, if there was ever a man to do it- can really buck Wall St and Koch Industries-type corporate interests who ALL need the current trade regimes to stay put (including what that implies for mfg). Trump won't. But he'll give us a hell of a show, scapegoating all his favourite minority ethnicities every time another tranche of beyuuutiful reforms bites the dust