Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Sep 2016 00:49

LOL

You guys are not gonna let go of the mithai!

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Sep 2016 12:58

Business jets are designed for relatively higher speed, longer endurance, higher altitude compared with commercial passenger jets of similar size and cost. So for Recce purposes, business jets are better. But now the Special Purpose Aircraft are multipurpose and hence passenger jets become relevant as they give more volume. For instance

MPA are not only used for anti ship and anti sub but also SIGINT, COMINT and perhaps also for AEW, SEAD, Jammer etc

Recce aircraft have not only optical equipment but also ISTAR radar, SIGINT, COMINT antennas

SIGINT and COMINT aircraft end up having optical equipment also

JSTARS can have not only optical equipment but also SIGINT, COMINT etc etc

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 20 Nov 2016 06:12

Two new AEW&C systems in the market, the saab camo imho is badass, this is where CABS should focus on true multi mission complete AEWC solution irrespective of area of operation (land sea air)
SAAB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcfzlbUjy-Q
ELTA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_IZ5pk3kOw

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 20 Nov 2016 08:41

Rakesh wrote:LOL You guys are not gonna let go of the mithai!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Nov 2016 11:21

Livefist ‏@livefist Nov 17

The Indian govt on Wednesday also cleared the purchase of 2 more Ilyushin-76 based PHALCON AWACS platforms.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Nov 2016 11:22

Rahul M wrote:OT : I still havent received that mithai promised by the admiral.

Did you draft the ASRs for the mithai? If not, then you are responsible for the delay.

After you draft the ASRs, shortlisted halwai's will need to send their mithai to Jaisalmer & Leh for hot/cold weather trials.

Those halwai's who pass the trials will need to ensure full Transfer of Technology from raw material phase. Screwdrivered mithai is unacceptable.

There will be discussions on BRF on the right Angle of Attack of the karchi as well as its instantaneous and sustained turn rate while cooking.

Once the ITR/STR is decided, the file will come up before DAC in 2020 and CCS in 2022.

Thereafter TD Mithai will be cooked and members will eagerly await its first tasting.

However, LSP Mithai will then need to be cooked, each progressively closer to meeting ASR, and certified by CEMILAC.

If CAG finds ghee used is not of right consistency, then call for fresh hot/cold weather trials.

Alternately you can request for waiver in ASR.

You can expect serial production of 4 pieces from 2036 with production rising to 8 pieces in 2040 finally reaching 16 pieces by 2050.

Enjoy your Mithai!

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 21 Nov 2016 12:24

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/india-inked-10 ... cts-704714

From the article above-

Bhamre also revealed that that there was "no delay" in AWACS (I) project, but the delay existed in indigenous AWE&C programme. The AWE&C programme was delayed due to following issues:
Finalization of Operational Requirements
Delay in delivery of certified aircraft
Incompletion of flight evaluation of the integrated systems due to modification on aircraft by Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM)
Major maintenance
System complexities
He was, however, positive that the first AWE&C platform was "likely" to be inducted in December 2016. But the indigenous AWACS (I) is expected to be available from 2024.

What does that actually mean do we have two AWACS programs running? which one will join by DEC 2016 - Another phalcon or the Indigenous ERJ-145 based AWACS.

Which program is delayed?

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Nov 2016 13:50

^^ IIRC, the Dec 2016 would be the ERJ-145 one ( i had assumed that it was already in IAF colours but doesnt look like it)
The 2024 would be the new AWACS(I) project with the full-fledged B737/A330 body and Phalcon type radar.

So, it looks like we wont go beyond 2-3 of the ERJ-145 based AEWCs? Sad if true since could have built up a good fleet as a backup since IIRC,2024 doesnt seem realistic for such a complex radar ( given our struggles with any kind of airborne radars till now).
We should not be left running back to Israel in case the AWACS(I) gets delayed and the AEWCs are just 2 in number with Phalcons getting long in the tooth

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 21 Nov 2016 15:40

tsarkar wrote:
Rahul M wrote:OT : I still havent received that mithai promised by the admiral.
Did you draft the ASRs for the mithai? If not, then you are responsible for the delay.

After you draft the ASRs, shortlisted halwai's will need to send their mithai to Jaisalmer & Leh for hot/cold weather trials.

Those halwai's who pass the trials will need to ensure full Transfer of Technology from raw material phase. Screwdrivered mithai is unacceptable.

There will be discussions on BRF on the right Angle of Attack of the karchi as well as its instantaneous and sustained turn rate while cooking.

Once the ITR/STR is decided, the file will come up before DAC in 2020 and CCS in 2022.

Thereafter TD Mithai will be cooked and members will eagerly await its first tasting.

However, LSP Mithai will then need to be cooked, each progressively closer to meeting ASR, and certified by CEMILAC.

If CAG finds ghee used is not of right consistency, then call for fresh hot/cold weather trials.

Alternately you can request for waiver in ASR.

You can expect serial production of 4 pieces from 2036 with production rising to 8 pieces in 2040 finally reaching 16 pieces by 2050.

Enjoy your Mithai!

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 21 Nov 2016 16:23

sum wrote:^^ IIRC, the Dec 2016 would be the ERJ-145 one ( i had assumed that it was already in IAF colours but doesnt look like it)
The 2024 would be the new AWACS(I) project with the full-fledged B737/A330 body and Phalcon type radar.

So, it looks like we wont go beyond 2-3 of the ERJ-145 based AEWCs? Sad if true since could have built up a good fleet as a backup since IIRC,2024 doesnt seem realistic for such a complex radar ( given our struggles with any kind of airborne radars till now).
We should not be left running back to Israel in case the AWACS(I) gets delayed and the AEWCs are just 2 in number with Phalcons getting long in the tooth

Truly sad. I don't understand the attitude of IAF in this case. Can the Phalcon alone plug all the gaps, all the time, economically?

It could be a strategic export candidate as well. So many countries who cant afford an AWACS would like to field an AEW&C platform like this. Brazil would also like to fly and market this jointly since they have a high stake. Pity it is being thrown away like this.

RohitAM · Post by **RohitAM** » 23 Nov 2016 01:20

I don't think we will settle for just 2-3 AEW&C platforms. If HAL can produce them, we might eventually see 6-8 (or even more) of these smaller "Mini-AWACS" in the IAF inventory, especially since the cost of flying these aircrafts would be far, far less than the Il-76 based Phalcons (less number of engines, more efficient engines). Flying them on routine sorties instead of the full-fledged Phalcons would be a far better option, especially since we have had a couple of Phalcon airframes for at least a decade now, and since those are Il-76's, they would start suffering from maintenance issues soon.

Plus, the recent government order for two more Phalcons looks more to make up AWACS numbers for a potential firefight, as well as having the option of more up-time on the AWACS because of the older Phalcons probably not putting in as many flight hours and thus preserving the airframes?

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Nov 2016 05:39

^^ I dont see any mini-AEWC anytime soon since there is no news of any additional airframe being selected( requires modificationa nd not just buy and use which means there is a long lead time) and the EJ-145 is anyways dead for Indian purposes due to bribery scandal of the parent company. All the effort of modifying the ERJ-145 looks to be a write-off after these 2-3 initial airframes.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Nov 2016 06:35

Mera Bharat Mahaan!! Let's spend $10 billion on imports!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 23 Nov 2016 07:42

sum wrote:^^ I dont see any mini-AEWC anytime soon since there is no news of any additional airframe being selected( requires modificationa nd not just buy and use which means there is a long lead time) and the EJ-145 is anyways dead for Indian purposes due to bribery scandal of the parent company. All the effort of modifying the ERJ-145 looks to be a write-off after these 2-3 initial airframes.

Ok all that rona dhona on the air frame but is the actually capability within the AWACS ready? If that is ready then that is a different question. As Far as I have been told miles to go so even if we did not have an issue with the aircraft we would not be in a position to field ay units as the tech is not up to scratch despite DRDO promises.

--chaiwallah info --

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 23 Nov 2016 07:44

Vivek K wrote:Mera Bharat Mahaan!! Let's spend $10 billion on imports!

Where is the import substitute?

Is the tech ready?

IAF has provided all the support for testing but has DRDO come to the table.....?

Just asking before you spout off.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Nov 2016 08:13

Ok all that rona dhona on the air frame but is the actually capability within the AWACS ready? If that is ready then that is a different question. As Far as I have been told miles to go so even if we did not have an issue with the aircraft we would not be in a position to field ay units as the tech is not up to scratch despite DRDO promises.

--chaiwallah info --

Thats what even i read in other blogs about the AEWC and the Aerostat too. Maybe it plans to be closed as a TD with these units

Thats why im very unconvinced about a 2024 date for a much complex AWACS(I)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Dec 2016 23:16

IAF to get 'eye in the sky' to snoop on Pakistani and Chinese air force
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 29481.html

Christmas comes early for the IAF.

The Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEWC) aircraft will be inducted on Dec 23 at Chitradurga Range in Karnataka.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jan 2017 00:29

IAF to finally have desi ‘eye in the sky’ to look into Pakistan, China
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr

BENGALURU: The Indian Air Force (IAF) will finally induct the first indigenously developed all-weather airborne early warning and control system (AeW&CS)—'Eyes in the Sky"—later this month, augmenting its ability to detect incoming cruise missiles, fighter jets or even drones from both Pakistan and China.I.The indigenous AeW&CS, developed by the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) in Bengaluru and integrated on Brazilian-made Embraer-145 aircraft at a cost of over Rs 2,200 crore, has completed all tests and certification, sources in DRDO told TOI.It will add to the capabilities along with the three Phalcon systems. "The first AeW&Cs is ready for induction while the second one is in the final stages of tests and certification," the source said. Work on the third and final one is yet to reach the final stages.Pegged as a "force multiplier", the system is equipped with a 240-degree coverage radars in contrast to the existing Phalcons, which provide a 360-degree coverage over a 400-km range. The AEW&C system will detect, identify and classify threats present in the surveillance area and act as a Command and Control Centre to support Air Defence operations.
"It is equipped with multiple communication and data links that can alert and direct fighters against threats while providing Recognizable Air Surveillance Picture (RASP) to commanders at the Ground Exploitation Stations (GES) that are strategically located," DRDO has said.
Besides, the system will support IAF in offensive strike missions and assist forces in the tactical battle area. "The Electronic and Communication Support Measures of the system can also intercept and gather electronic and communication intelligence from radar transmissions and communication signals. It is a multi-sensor surveillance system that can perform the following operational roles as defined by the IAF," a senior official said.However, this addition and even the other two in the pipeline will not put India on a par with China or even Pakistan.China is equipped with better capabilities. As TOI reported earlier, China has over 20 AWACS, including the new KJ-500 ones that can track over 60 aircraft at ranges up to 470km, while Pakistan, on the other hand has four Swedish Saab-2000 AeW&C aircraft and four Chinese-origin ZDK-03 (KJ-200) AWACS.Keeping this in mind, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), in March 2016 cleared building of two Awacs, which will involve mounting indigenous 360-degree coverage AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars on Airbus A-330 wide-body jets.The estimated cost of this project is Rs 5,113 crore and the eventual plan is to induct eight such aircraft under the "Awacs -India". But this is going to take at least seven years to be implemented, if the DRDO sticks to deadlines.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 05 Jan 2017 03:45

Good news! Maybe they can repeat another order of 4-5 till the A330 version is ready. Now its all production.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 05 Jan 2017 03:48

Only 2 will be joining IAF so they can easily order 4 more and have an squadron of 6 before the AWACS India flies.But is embraer still on blacklist?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 05 Jan 2017 19:10

From Transport Aircraft for IAF

Kakarat wrote:
Cybaru wrote:It's possible we may see AEW off this platform as well for future if the deal is signed.
https://files.graphiq.com/1617/media/im ... 102_i0.jpg

Either we could get this fitted with our own radar or even ask Airbus to develop some thing similar to EMB-145 version, India definitely needs more AEWs
Both EMB-145 and C-295 are almost of the same size

Cybaru wrote:yeah. Hope they give the first few raw to DRDO first to get on with the CG and AEW conversions. If the chappati has undergone testing, we could use that config. Anyways for C295 AEW version, it was IAI that provided the radar.

Kakarat wrote:If DRDO takes up this project and if there is a potential confirmed order then Airbus might provide its current prototype for testing the radar and subsystems till the first purpose built aircraft is ready since there is no order for this type yet

Click to Enlarge

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Jan 2017 01:12

^^^Looks like 6 situation displays with 60 degrees sector for each operator. And on the side a console for the communications officer. Interestingly there doesn't look like there is a separate console for the radar maintenance technician to ensure that any RF or signal processing systems are operating within tolerance. Or maybe one of the six SDs can be used for radar maintenance.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 06 Jan 2017 03:09

I doubt all six will be for radar screens. It will probably be less more like 1 or 2. Other screens will be devoted to other things.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Jan 2017 04:02

^^^It will be too much info for two SD operators. For 360 coverage, 6 SDs means 60 degrees per operator. A max of 90 degrees per operator. Each operator is the ATC for his/her sector and will be communicating voice and data to the friendlies and keeping track of the hostiles.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 06 Jan 2017 05:38

Mort Walker wrote:^^^It will be too much info for two SD operators. For 360 coverage, 6 SDs means 60 degrees per operator. A max of 90 degrees per operator. Each operator is the ATC for his/her sector and will be communicating voice and data to the friendlies and keeping track of the hostiles.

So you are saying if the awacs flies a circular pattern and assume if I was a radar operator tracking something like a helicopter, then it gets handed over to the other guy sitting next to me as the target passes into his screen due to turning of the aircraft??

That will surely entertain all the six operators from their boring no blip flight because one side is always looking into India if it were flying on the border.

Do they scramble for seats like the officewallahs getting into local train at rush hour hoping to get the right 60 view?
Are handkerchiefs allowed on AWACS to reserve seats for your friends?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Jan 2017 08:26

^^^I don't see why you find this so funny?

Once a scan is started the arenas are defined on the SDs and divided among the SDs so that there is full 360 degree coverage.

Radar returns are a complex waveform that consists of noise, clutter and target data. It comes out of the signal processor A/D as I&Q data along with azimuth and elevation information at some clock rate. This "raw" data is then sent to a radar processing computer which then combines aircraft position data, navigation data, and clutter maps to produce target range, velocity and position in 3-dimensions to produce a radar product which is then sent to the SD for the corresponding arena. It doesn't matter what the heading and position of the aircraft is as the data is always being sent to the particular arena designated at the start of the scan. If the target moves from one arena to another, then there is corresponding a hand off to the designated operator. The whole purpose of multiple SDs is to minimize the workload of the operator. The more SDs, the lower the workload and less chance of error in coordination.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2017 08:35

Cybaru wrote:Good news! Maybe they can repeat another order of 4-5 till the A330 version is ready. Now its all production.

instead of that logical course, we will let the A330 project get delayed and over budget, then pay 2X that amt for more phalcons on G550 with no local content.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 06 Jan 2017 23:31

Mort Walker wrote:^^^I don't see why you find this so funny?

Once a scan is started the arenas are defined on the SDs and divided among the SDs so that there is full 360 degree coverage.

It doesn't work that way buddy. Its not that you have 6 operators so each gets 60 degrees. Imagine the chaos when in a phalcon type awacs where you have 12 operators - each gets only 30 degrees. So, what you said is actually a little funny, no offense.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Jan 2017 23:58

^^^Arenas do get defined one way or another and the radar computer hands off the data accordingly.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 Jan 2017 00:29

This is correct. You'd want to allocate your sectors to teams because AEW is a pretty intense job from an operators perspective. Not only do you have to manage traffic in an area you also have to work with the blue force and coordinate the fight. The computer automates the process and follows tracks as they transfer from one sector to the other but note that a radar that can see for hundreds of km in either direction for a target flying at a decent altitude you arent going to be really hopping from one sector to another at a given range. Same with the blue force.

Instead of focusing on degrees, imagine the sheer ammount of air-space if you have a sensor that can see for > 200 nautical miles in either direction. How many square km of airspace is that if you divide the pie up into 6?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 07 Jan 2017 00:53

You're actually looking in 3 dimensions. So there is a lot of data, much of it being surface clutter and how well you can distinguish low velocity targets within this clutter. It is a challenge and this is where radar sensitivity, signal-to-noise ratio, clutter rejection, signal processing, and software algorithm development are all very critical. Just because the Chinese or Pakis have AWACs means little if they can't accurately designate targets.

Dividing this large cylinder of airspace in degree sectors is one way of dividing the workload and quickly determining how many situation display (SD) consoles are needed. The more SDs you have the better it is as it reduces the work load. There is also the problem on many SDs where it is information overload leading to operator errors.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Jan 2017 01:40

The AEW is not going to be inside a enemy territory so there would not need one operator per sector. If divided in to 6 sectors like you suggest the max 3 or 4 will be active sectors and if an enemy moves from one sector to another then what happens, will the other operator start instructing the pilot? I think a team of pilots would be allotted a operator and the team number would depend on the no of operators available

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 Jan 2017 01:44

You're simply not just looking for bad guys, you are also coordinating all blue forces...

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 07 Jan 2017 02:16

^^^Yes, that is correct. It ATC for coordination among all friendly forces with the IAF, IN, and IA (helos/drones).

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Jan 2017 02:28

That's what I am saying if the operators work with respect to sectors the work wont be equally shared. In a ATC the operators do not work sector wise but are given aircrafts that are their responsibility and have access to all the sector.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 07 Jan 2017 07:16

^^^Ground based ATC is different in that you have a fixed reference of runways and orientation to N-S-E-W. An airborne platform will be moving in 3-dimensions and some reference will have to be used. Dividing the sectors in degrees is just one type of reference to determine how many SD consoles you have and more SDs, the better. The arenas will be set before hand and often work load may not be even as some SDs will deliberately have less targets and clutter so that you can train operators or accommodate a less skilled operator.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Jan 2017 01:13

Mort Walker wrote:^^^I don't see why you find this so funny?

I guess I found it funny then!

Generally AEW aircraft do the following mission: Surveillance, identification, weapons control, battle management and communications functions. Not all the consoles broken down into angles/sectors etc. ATC is also a very secondary function for the Battle Manager, primary is "Battle Management", basically ensuring all A2A and A2G missions go according to plan, right plane/weapon gets tasked for right bogie. The mission crew will probably comprise of many different functions depending upon the sensors of the aircraft. So yes if there are 6 screens in the plane, not all six are dedicated and broken down into sectors, which was my objection but I kinda went around in a roundabout way of asking questions. I apologize for that. What you say about radars and processing is accurate, but I personally think that your opinion on number of screens and screen-taskings may be a bit off.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Jan 2017 12:10

^^^Battle management is only part of an AEW&C mission. Most of the time it's going to be surveillance as such a platform is just as much a defensive weapon system. If Pakis or Chinis are going to be moving high value assets on the ground, sea or air, you can bet such a platform will be up and looking doing the mundane but very necessary work of collecting radar and communications signatures.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Jan 2017 17:13

Contrary to popular belief an AEW aircraft in most operational constructs performs a number of missions concurrently..It's just not managing the battle, it's guiding traffic, and supporting a host of other activities given its surveillance and passive means of developing situational awareness.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Jan 2017 18:00

Yes, its only a part of the mission and glad you guys agree. So back to the topic, the people who perform the ATC role you describe are the ABM portion of the mission crew. Mission crew has different types and there are many functions aboard an AEW, like brar agrees with. So not all screens ( six from our discussion - C295W based ) will be dedicated to one type aka BM. So the given 6 screens and 360/6 = 60 degrees may not be the way things get done. There are other functions and you need screens for those too. That was the point.