Artillery: News & Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2016 01:01

Khalsa wrote:So someone confirm my understanding of Dhanush and Bofors.

3 X Dhanush have been handed over to the army for trials in June.
If and When Successful, enough will be manufactured to equip one regiment. Some say the number is 24.
Question: Can anyone confirm or deny this ?
Sub Question: How many guns in a Field Artillety Regiment (like Bofors).
Question: Has the army placed an order for this version of Dhanush (Version 1.0)

Meanwhile Dhanush is giving rise to the Version 2.0 of Dhanush aka the Future Towed Artillery System for the Artillery in the plains of INDIA.
Question: Has the army placed an order for this version of Dhanush (Version 2.0)

Answer 1: 414 ordered. The three were handed over 7/17/2016. See the wiki article notes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhanush_howitzer

The Dhanush 2.0 is upgraded barrel to 52 calibres.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Nov 2016 04:17

Khalsa wrote:So someone confirm my understanding of Dhanush and Bofors.

3 X Dhanush have been handed over to the army for trials in June.

3 x Dhanush from the testing phase and 3 x Dhanush from production batch have been handed over to a designated arty regiment. Source: I had discussion with someone on Twitter on this.

If and When Successful, enough will be manufactured to equip one regiment. Some say the number is 24.
Question: Can anyone confirm or deny this ?
Sub Question: How many guns in a Field Artillety Regiment (like Bofors).
Question: Has the army placed an order for this version of Dhanush (Version 1.0)

- One Artillery Regiment has 18 guns divided into 3 batteries of 6 guns each.
- BTW, Bofors, M-46 and now Dhanush will be held by Medium Regiments. In IA nomenclature, barrel beyond 105mm is held by medium regiments. Field Regiments hold 105mm IFG/LFG. But these units are much lesser than what we had earlier. Most have converted to 130mm M-46 guns
- Order is Dhanush 1.0. Which is 155/45 caliber weapon. As against 155/39 caliber original Bofors. So, it is more potent both in terms of barrel as well as electronics.
- Current is for 144 guns. Can go up to 414 guns. Army wants those 144 guns in three years but OFB it seems has its own plans. OFB is looking at peak production run of 36 guns/annum. IA won't get these guns in 5 years.

Meanwhile Dhanush is giving rise to the Version 2.0 of Dhanush aka the Future Towed Artillery System for the Artillery in the plains of INDIA.

Dhanush 2.0 is up-gunned Dhanush 1.0 with 155/52 barrel. ATAGS is a completely new beast which aims to develop a relatively light weight howitzer with 155/52 caliber and APU. Baba Kalyani seems to be working closely with DRDO on this.

Question: Has the army placed an order for this version of Dhanush (Version 2.0)
Nope. It is not ready. As it is, production rate for the first version itself is very slow.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 22 Nov 2016 06:45

^^^ Thank you Ramana and Rohit.
36 Guns per annum is not bad ... not bad at all.

Is that what the production rate will operate from the moment someone yells GO
or is it significantly lower (I have heard 6 per year) which can be accelerated to 36.

Hopefully none of the chicken vs egg issue that Tejas Production line faces every now and then.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2016 08:14

For the needs of the Indian army, the figures are quite low. Maybe the IA is waiting for the 52 calbier piece, before bulk orders are placed.

RohitAM · Post by **RohitAM** » 22 Nov 2016 22:47

Given our military size, we should be inducting up to 10x that number (360 per annum, not 36), and finish equipping almost all artillery regiments in around 5 years, fielding over 2000 guns...we should be able to bring to bear unprecedented firepower on to the enemy as and when we want to.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 23 Nov 2016 03:55

Finland (a nation of 5 million inhabitants) has 800 cannons (field guns, towed howitzers and self-propelled howitzers) in the Army arsenal.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Nov 2016 04:54

Question how does an upgrade a 130 mm to 155 mm ?
Do you replace the entire barrel ? so I am seeing the diameter being increased from 130 mm to 155 mmm...
why would you call it an upgrade and not a replacement.

Can someone detail this upgrade process please please

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Nov 2016 05:21

Wasn't the M-46 upgrade being carried out by Soltam terminated after a barrel explosion? So are most of the M-46s in IA service still the old 130mm versions or were they all modified by OFB later (I remember it was called Metamorphosis or something)?

Secondly, the Soltam upgrade was a 45caliber barrel. Is the OFB version 39cal or 45cal?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Nov 2016 06:19

4 companies are now vying for d-130 upgrade to 155mm/45 caliber, ofb and kalyani among them.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Nov 2016 12:50

Khalsa wrote:Question how does an upgrade a 130 mm to 155 mm ? Do you replace the entire barrel ? so I am seeing the diameter being increased from 130 mm to 155 mm... why would you call it an upgrade and not a replacement. Can someone detail this upgrade process please please

Yes, the barrel is upgraded. It goes from 130mm to 155/45 caliber.

Initially, Soltam had upgraded 180 guns to 155/45 caliber or about 10 regiments. But for some reason, it did not proceed further. Post that, there was another fresh tender for upgrades. This time, apart from Soltam, even OFB participated. OFB has developed an upgrade basis their experience from Bofors guns.

Soltam upgraded M-46:

OFB upgrade - have a look at the barrel:

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Nov 2016 12:57

Thakur_B wrote:4 companies are now vying for d-130 upgrade to 155mm/45 caliber, ofb and kalyani among them.

Are you referring to D-30 guns? Or M-46?

D-30 are 122mm guns and IIRC, held by about 20-22 regiments. But the numbers could've reduced.

maxratul · Post by **maxratul** » 23 Nov 2016 15:23

When are the South Korean guns scheduled to start arriving?

Artillery, along with subs have been the biggest victims of our ridiculous, byzantine procurement model.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Nov 2016 17:29

rohitvats wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:4 companies are now vying for d-130 upgrade to 155mm/45 caliber, ofb and kalyani among them.
Are you referring to D-30 guns? Or M-46?

D-30 are 122mm guns and IIRC, held by about 20-22 regiments. But the numbers could've reduced.

Thanks for correction, i meant M-46 130 mm gun.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Nov 2016 02:58

rohitvats wrote: Yes, the barrel is upgraded. It goes from 130mm to 155/45 caliber.

Initially, Soltam had upgraded 180 guns to 155/45 caliber or about 10 regiments. But for some reason, it did not proceed further. Post that, there was another fresh tender for upgrades. This time, apart from Soltam, even OFB participated. OFB has developed an upgrade basis their experience from Bofors guns.

So the Soltam upgraded ones would have a greater range than even the FH-77 Bofors guns on account of the longer barrel?

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 24 Nov 2016 17:55

What is the difference between IFG and LFG? As per this link (http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wlc/3.htm) LFG is lighter and has a higher rate of fire. So LFG is an improvement over IFG?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 25 Nov 2016 06:34

Aditya G wrote:^ Jingo will take even 1 gun per month.

With CFA in J&K reaching a point where howitzers will be required soon, we need new guns with even greater urgency. Unfortunately the upgunned M-46s are not ideal for J&K due to limited elevation.

But aren't M777 being acquired entirely for the Tibetan frontier? We would need more of Dhanush and Pinaka for J&K no?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Nov 2016 11:56

Nachiket, Gerald Bull proved by mathematical calcollation that for 155mm gun, the optimum caliber length is 45 as it allows the gases to expand fully and thus impart momentum to shell. Later based on propellant burn characteristic it was found 52 calibers is even better.

Alexis, Yes IFG was first made and then LFG was an improvement. I think IFG is a copy of a British model.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Nov 2016 13:56

True. That's the 'business case'.

Surely IA will deploy to J&K if push comes to shove

Kashi wrote:
Aditya G wrote:^ Jingo will take even 1 gun per month.

With CFA in J&K reaching a point where howitzers will be required soon, we need new guns with even greater urgency. Unfortunately the upgunned M-46s are not ideal for J&K due to limited elevation.
But aren't M777 being acquired entirely for the Tibetan frontier? We would need more of Dhanush and Pinaka for J&K no?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Nov 2016 18:46

Must read article by sandeep unithan on artillery modernisation.

Confirms among other things field deployment of swati and dhanush.

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indian-arm ... 18418.html

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 28 Nov 2016 19:20

rohitvats wrote:
Yes, the barrel is upgraded. It goes from 130mm to 155/45 caliber.

By upgraded, you mean replaced, right?

If so, why upgrade? The barrel is probably about 80% of the gun system (leaving aside electronics which anyway wasn't in the picture on the original gun), so why not simply build a new gun instead?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2016 22:02

Exorcising the ghost of Bofors

The Indian army is set to acquire its first howitzers in three decades and restart a long-delayed artillery modernisation programme.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 18418.html

nits · Post by **nits** » 30 Nov 2016 16:24

Gurus - As per above we are buying 2000 Ashok Leyland trucks for 12,000 CR thats 6 Crore for a Truck. Seems very high IMHO or this is on expected lines ?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 30 Nov 2016 16:40

nits wrote:Gurus - As per above we are buying 2000 Ashok Leyland trucks for 12,000 CR thats 6 Crore for a Truck. Seems very high IMHO or this is on expected lines ?

Also, Towed 155 Dhanush cost 14Cr per gun as per wiki. Why 15000 Cr for 400 guns making it 37.5 Cr each ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Nov 2016 16:51

The cost of all ingenious items is always inflated by media and imported items are shown at lesser price, take that with a pince of salt. Thats why T-90 is compared at bare bones price without Night vision device etc while Arjun all inclusive price inclusive missiles is used. Remember in 2004 NDTV was saying price of INS VIkramAditya was USD 5 Billion since US did not approve of the deal at that time.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Nov 2016 18:26

100 B'hos at 35 Cr each. One wonders if the writer is having brain or not.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Nov 2016 19:45

User Actions

‏@livefist
BREAKING: It's finally through -- Indian MoD signs Letter of Acceptance (LoA) for 145 @BAESystemsInc M777 ultra-light howitzers.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 30 Nov 2016 23:04

M777 in action during training!

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 30 Nov 2016 23:17

The Ashok Leyland contract values are much lower.

Hinduja Group flagship firm Ashok Leyland has bagged contracts worth Rs 800 crore from the Indian armed forces. The company will supply 450 units of Field Artillery Tractor (FAT) 6x6 and other similar Super Stallion vehicles; and 825 units of Ambulance 4x4 to the armed forces.

The Field Artillery Tractor (FAT) 6x6 on Super Stallion platform will function as a Common Gun Tower for all artillery guns. The FAT provides the Army flexibility in rapid deployment and utilisation of artillery resources. The vehicle can be used for a variety of applications across logistics and tactical segments.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 597222.cms

BTW, 6x6 Tata trucks have started to replace the Ashok Leyland Stallion/Tatra's and are being delivered as the prime logistical mover for the ASC battalions. Saw many crop up at cantonments. They won a follow-on contract this year also.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 01 Dec 2016 02:49

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/m777 ... 23899.html
India signs Rs 5000 crore M777 howitzer contract with US
The first three M777 howitzers will be delivered within the next three months to allow high-altitude and desert trials with Indian-made ammunition.
Ending a three-decade-old howitzer drought, India today signed a contract with the US for buying 145 M777 ultralight howitzers for $737 million (Rs 5000 crore). A senior MoD official today formally signed the Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) with the US government for the seven regiments of howitzers. The acquisition of the 'Ultra Light Howitzers', thus called because at 4.2 tons, they weigh only a third of normal 155 mm howitzers. The guns, which can be carried underslung by heavy lift helicopters like the Chinook, will give the army tremendous flexibility especially along the mountainous border with China. Sources said the first three M777 howitzers will be delivered within the next three months to allow high-altitude and desert trials with Indian-made ammunition. The three guns will also be used to train Indian gunners. The first batch of 20 guns (18 guns make an artillery regiment) will be delivered by manufacturer BAE Systems in two years. The remaining 120 guns will be assembled in India between 48-54 months by BAE partner Mahindra Defence at their plant in Faridabad, Haryana.
The deal was cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on November 15. It has been in the pipeline for nearly a decade since the Indian army mooted the acquisition of the M777 Ultra Light Howitzers (ULH) from the US under 'Foreign Military Sales'.
"We look forward to providing the Indian Army with the combat-proven M777," said Dr. Joe Senftle, vice president & general manager for Weapon Systems at BAE Systems. The Company anticipates signing a contract in the coming weeks with the U.S. Department of Defense to supply the M777 to the army.
.....

Gautam

John · Post by **John** » 01 Dec 2016 04:18

Yagnasri wrote:100 B'hos at 35 Cr each. One wonders if the writer is having brain or not.

I don't follow you the price of Brahmos is somewhere around that plus you have cost of TEL and support vehicles.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Dec 2016 04:49

According to that infographic, 814 truck mounted guns cost 8500 crores while 400 towed guns cost 15000 crores. Why such a disparity? Especially since truck mounted guns would have the cost of the truck included in the price. It also makes clear that the trucks to tow the towed guns come separate.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Dec 2016 06:23

Why is towed artillery piece better or worse than a truck mounted artillery piece ?
I understand the light artillery bit already ... that can be lifted into the mountains etc.

Let me be more specific then
Why is Bofors 155 better or worse than a CAESAR self propelled artillery piece

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2016 08:09

Self propelled artillery can move much faster with the advancing army..

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2016 08:25

and also easily be prepared for battle ( can go into action much faster than towed artillery).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2016 10:27

India Signs $737M Ultralight Howitzer Contract

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/ind ... s-contract

NEW DELHI — India has signed a much awaited $737 million contract for the procurement of 145 M777A2 LW155 ultralight howitzers.

The deal was inked Wednesday with the original equipment manufacturer, the US subsidiary of BAE Systems.

A formal Foreign Military Sales (FMS) agreement will be signed with the US government on Thursday, according a top Ministry of Defence (MoD) official.

BAE Systems executives here were unavailable for comment.

India wants the guns delivered as quickly as possible, however no details have been officially announced by the MoD.

BAE Systems partnered with Indian private sector defense company Mahindra Defence Systems to assemble 120 ultralight howitzers, and a remaining 25 of the guns will be supplied within the next three years.

The Indian Army is seeking a total of 220 ultralight howitzers over the next 15 years.

As per prescribed terms and conditions, BAE Systems will also set up an assembly integration and test facility here with Mahindra Defence Systems.

The MoD in principle cleared the pending program to acquire M777 guns from the US in 2005 after the cancellation of a previous competitive global tender over allegations of corruption by Singapore Technology Kinetics, which subsequently led to the blacklisting of the Singaporean defense company.

This will be the first overseas procurement of artillery guns after a gap of 30 years

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Dec 2016 10:32

manjgu wrote:Self propelled artillery can move much faster with the advancing army..

Artillery does not move with advancing army. Typically it stays several km behind. The "self moving" is partly for self preservation because they have to shoot and scoot and reposition or else counter battery fire using WLR will destroy the artillery piece within minutes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Dec 2016 10:33

Khalsa wrote:Why is towed artillery piece better or worse than a truck mounted artillery piece ?
I understand the light artillery bit already ... that can be lifted into the mountains etc.

Let me be more specific then
Why is Bofors 155 better or worse than a CAESAR self propelled artillery piece

Artillery is located precisely by enemy weapon locating radar and targeted - so mobility is useful. Fire 3 rounds and move 500 meters away - fire 3 more - move 500 meters etc.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Dec 2016 12:11

@Shiv, Manjgu

What about the last part (highlighted) of the post ?

The Bofors 155 (at about 6kph, 12 tonnes) and the truck mounted Caesar(about 50-100 kph depending on terrain, 18 tonnes) are both mobile

Khalsa wrote:Why is towed artillery piece better or worse than a truck mounted artillery piece ?
I understand the light artillery bit already ... that can be lifted into the mountains etc.

Let me be more specific then
Why is Bofors 155 better or worse than a CAESAR self propelled artillery piece

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2016 13:59

shiv, ManishP...what i meant was self propelled artillery can keep pace with pace of moving army/columns... unlike the towed. Shiv i am not 100% sure of how self propelled arty is deployed though i do understand that arty is usually deployed in rear of the moving columns... also its easier to bring self propelled arty into action faster. i answered the highlighted part boss.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Dec 2016 14:48

manjgu wrote:shiv, ManishP...what i meant was self propelled artillery can keep pace with pace of moving army/columns... unlike the towed. Shiv i am not 100% sure of how self propelled arty is deployed though i do understand that arty is usually deployed in rear of the moving columns... also its easier to bring self propelled arty into action faster. i answered the highlighted part boss.

The need to keep pace may not be there unless there is a very rapid advance. For example 155 mm artillery 10 km behind can hit enemy fortifications from just 2 km in front of friendly forces to 25 km ahead. And unless the advance exceeds 25 km in a day there will be no need for artillery to move forward.

Typically one would expect artillery to pound and soften up enemy opposition so the advance can take place - but the advance cannot simply run too far ahead because the logistics may not be able to keep up - let alone the artillery. That aside all advances are typically met with counter attacks - so the advancing forces need to dig in and consolidate. These would give time for the artillery to move forward if need be - because that would only be one element that needs to move - ammunition, food, water, medics and comm lines also have to move forward for immediate support of the advance aside from holding/relieving forces that may have to move in

In 1965 there was a sad situation resulting from confusion where Indian forces actually crossed the Ichogil canal but there was no back up and they were beaten back and the bridge blown up - and ultimately this prevented us from advancing into Lahore proper