Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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brar_w
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

And the U.S. Navy has to use what is developed by Boeing / Raytheon / NG / et al.
They are the ones developing it. Its the US Navy and any program partners specifying what is to be developed, the requirements, the time-frame, and setting the contract terms. The PEO doesn't go to a Boeing, Raytheon et al and asks them what's on your plate that we can upgrade with. On the contrary, the PEO has a short - mid and long term upgrade plan, calls out industry participation to meet that plan and awards R&D and eventually procurement contracts to get what was being demanded into the fleet. Industry doesn't venture out on its own does some R&D and pitches it to the USN. That can happen too, but its rare..The way they do it is they feed requirements to the industry, the industry applies to furnish those requirements and are awarded a contract to do so. In the case of the P-8 spiral development phase 1 (now known as Increment 2) the contracts had to meet operational and performance specifications (both unique and shared ) given to them through the program office, for the US Navy, and the Australian DOD.

Below is a pre-solicitation industry day presentation for Increment -3. As you can see much like a new program every refresh/increment cycle follows an academic assessment of the upgrades (done by a joint Navy- partner team and an industry team to assess the feasibility of the industrial partners to deliver on the requirements within the specified time-frame), a technology development phase (de-risking technology), an EMD phase to actually develop the product, an integration and testing phase (including an increment specific OT&E phase) and finally a procurement phase. While what happens within each increment is firmed up closer to the process-start but the broad construct as to the number of increments, broad capability that will be sought in each increment is generally decided at the time of program start. These decisions are made by the PEO (which acts as the JPO in case there is multi-service or multi-nation involvement) and that office has to show enough maturity in its plan to pass through the OSD and eventually get approval from the SecDef and get funded by Congress. Immature programs are sent right back, as the USAF recently learned on the JSTARS-replacement and the Army on the Patriot upgrade.

http://www.defenseinnovationmarketplace ... tryDay.pdf

The US fleet has adopted Increment 2 and may have adopted block 2 of that increment (it was a two block build iirc). Increment 3 is in development/testing and should be available in a couple of years and the entire fleet should be on Increment 3 by 2020-2021. The first Australian delivery will be with Increment-2 changes that they were a partner to. Not sure whether they extended their MOU to cover Increment 3 and the RCI's that follow it but if they did then they too will be getting capability upgrades at par with the US Navy's fleet in terms of both the improvements in performance and time-frame.
What if our requirements are divergent? We'll still need to pay over and above the cost of spiral development cost.
As I said, horses for courses. If you have totally divergent requirement so as to seek a completely different path to upgrade you can do a number of things - A custom modernization program for starters, or you can choose some but not all of the stuff included in increment 2 or increment 3. If you're requirements involve largely the same things, but some user specific requirements not shared by others you have the power to incorporate that since joining the program gets you a seat on the table when it comes to deciding what goes into each increment. Australia did exactly that in the Spiral 1/ Increment 2 where there were a host of Australia specific requirements and even Australia specific testing that they incorporated into the program. A formal program participation agreement also allows your industry to equally compete for all non prime-contractor relate work on all of the program (including supplying US aircraft).

You can also modify your MOU to reflect your partial acceptance of the changes. The program office can be forced to hold certain partner or program defined changes from being marketed to non program customers since of late (and the P-8 was one of the first Navy program to take this approach) the services have been more inclined to purchase technical rights for the products being developed so as to exercise more control and eventually open upgrades up to competition. This may be what Ajai Shukla was alluding to. Boeing could have written code, or have furnished hardware but may not own rights to it and may not be able to market it as a commercial sale on an upgrade contract with a customer that chooses to negotiate with it through the DCS route.
So it still makes sense to pay for what we want and not the superfluous things that someone else might want.
Assuming that there are superfluous things to begin with, and that the cost to get a bespoke upgrade in terms of money and time is different and advantageous for a user not joining the program. As I said, it benefits some while not others. Unless you do a deep dive into Increment 2 and Increment 3 refresh cycle, see which technologies you would not have wanted at all you can't really say. But there is no way to just come out point blank against either strategy - That was the point I was trying to make!.

FWIW, below are some of the initial capabilities the Australians were able to get included into the Spiral 1 / Increment-2 discussions. In accordance with the process described above you collect all capabilities that each party wants and see what you can fund (afford) and what you can deliver within the expected time-frame. Its a process of negotiation where you may drop certain capabilities altogether, move them to the right, or add new ones but below are the one's that Australia started their negotiations with that were ADOD Unique (over and above the USN requirements for Increment 2) -

Candidate Australian Operational Requirements:


The ADOD has identified the following capability improvements as possible Australian operational requirements:

- Integration of MU90 torpedo
- Integration of Harpoon Block II or III
- Integration of Joint Air to Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM)
- JASSM-MI Link 16 mid-course guidance Radar Auto Track
- Radar Ground Moving Target Indicator
- EO/IR upgrades (Rangefinder, Designator)
- 6th Crew Station
- Barra sonobuoy integration
- Air Launched Rescue Craft


Australian Integrated Ground Environment (IGE) and Industry Capability Partner (ICP):

The ADOD has identified an Australian operational requirement to integrate a variety of national systems with both P-8A and Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) Unnmanned Aerial System (UAS) ground elements. The ADOD has designated an ICP who will be under Contract to the ADOD to provide the IGE and associated elements in order to accomplish this integration effort. The U.S. DoD will assist the ADOD and the ICP on a not-to-interfere basis with Project goals, schedules, and Contracting, in order to facilitate and assist in the accomplishment of this effort in terms of anticipated P-8A system interfaces with the IGE. If necessary, the ADOD can request that the U.S. DoD Contract on its behalf in order to accomplish elements of these efforts.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by SaiK »

CSL upping the ante is good, but I thought they will jumpstart to 100k tonne carriers
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Pratyush »

The ship the builder makes is a function of the design specified by the end user. The Navy may well want a 100000 ton ship. But the 1st question they will be asking themselves would be can they use such a ship. If not then they will think in terms of a ship they can use.

Which is what they are asking for.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

The end user decides the mission needs, growth margins in capability and then specifies a requirement for a boat around that. If you wan't a 100K Ton ship and go looking for justification for it you are doing it backwards and the IN is unlikely to take that approach given the acquisition discipline they have shown with other programs.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Regarding INS Chennai, I know few people have spotted the 4 black panels right behind Garpun FCR. Based on images released so far hard to speculate what it is.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 561444.cms
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Rishi Verma »

brar_w wrote:The end user decides the mission needs, growth margins in capability and then specifies a requirement for a boat around that. If you wan't a 100K Ton ship and go looking for justification for it you are doing it backwards and the IN is unlikely to take that approach given the acquisition discipline they have shown with other programs.
IN not only specifies but also designs own ships.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

Rishi Verma wrote:
brar_w wrote:The end user decides the mission needs, growth margins in capability and then specifies a requirement for a boat around that. If you wan't a 100K Ton ship and go looking for justification for it you are doing it backwards and the IN is unlikely to take that approach given the acquisition discipline they have shown with other programs.
IN not only specifies but also designs own ships.
Right, so you first determine the need in terms of capability as in What do I need to do with a new vessel, and the designer than designs a ship to meet those requirements. Needs lead to designs.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by tsarkar »

John wrote:Regarding INS Chennai, I know few people have spotted the 4 black panels right behind Garpun FCR. Based on images released so far hard to speculate what it is
Areas blackened by exhaust fumes are typically painted black - like funnels. The Mi-8 is also painted black next to exhaust because of this.

Often parts of superstructure are painted with black radar absorbent paint usually to prevent close range reflections from own superstructure from cluttering the radar.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

tsarkar wrote:
John wrote:Regarding INS Chennai, I know few people have spotted the 4 black panels right behind Garpun FCR. Based on images released so far hard to speculate what it is
Areas blackened by exhaust fumes are typically painted black - like funnels. The Mi-8 is also painted black next to exhaust because of this.

Often parts of superstructure are painted with black radar absorbent paint usually to prevent close range reflections from own superstructure from cluttering the radar.
Was not there in Koch was thinking it was radar absorbing paint, but it almost looks like 4 panels bolted on top of superstructure based on side images.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by tsarkar »

^^ Yes, I went onboard INS Delhi - liaising a field trip for children of the school where my wife teaches - and INS Chennai was moored alongside. It's indeed a thick black panel unlike a radar absorbent coating. However, I didn't ask anyone about it.

The engineering marvel of that class is the heavy AESA radar carried aloft the mast.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

tsarkar wrote:.. It's indeed a thick black panel unlike a radar absorbent coating.....
Indeed.

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Yagnasri »

Mango question:
Why is the upper skin not smooth? Even the entire surface of the ship is also not smooth from the pictures I have seen.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by pushkar.bhat »

Yagnasri wrote:Mango question:
Why is the upper skin not smooth? Even the entire surface of the ship is also not smooth from the pictures I have seen.
It's almost never smooth. Never seen a ship with flawless skin tone like hema mailini :)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by ks_sachin »

Its top secret. Black magic....
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by ks_sachin »

Yagnasri wrote:Mango question:
Why is the upper skin not smooth? Even the entire surface of the ship is also not smooth from the pictures I have seen.
Mango counter question - does it matter?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

^ Its due to thin steel plating on top of structure.

@ Aditya, @tsarkar. Thanks could very well be another radar but would be odd placement for it due to limited fov.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Could it be radiator and air intakes for the internal cooling system of the mf star
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by yensoy »

ks_sachin wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Mango question:
Why is the upper skin not smooth? Even the entire surface of the ship is also not smooth from the pictures I have seen.
Mango counter question - does it matter?
Poor sheet-metal workmanship doesn't look very professional. Of course it's easy to say when looking from such a distance, but I don't see the same kind of ripples on the latest US ships.

Does it matter? Yes. First is stealth - close to 100% of the illuminator beam (or whatever it is called) from the enemy's radar should bounce off at an angle, coherently - that is how stealth is achieved in the modern world. It is a very low probability event for another enemy sensor to be located at exactly that azimuth where reflections are directed (different azimuths from different planes defining the ship or aircraft). If there are imperfections from planarity, there will be scatter of signals which may be easier to pick up.

Second is appearance. We are trying to sell our shipbuilding capabilities around the world, and let's put it this way, we aren't the front-runner. We have to do everything in our means to appear perfect. See how the Japanese penetrated the global car market, and how they continue to lead in quality and consistency.

Now we can get by with "chalta hai", after all it gets the job done. Let me ask another question - is it so important for soldiers to have perfect uniforms, perfect shaves, and perfect steps while marching?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

Here's a French Navy ship Adroit - see the undulation
Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

yensoy wrote: I don't see the same kind of ripples on the latest US ships.
Maybe you did not look hard enough

Image
Last edited by shiv on 27 Nov 2016 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by tsarkar »

yensoy wrote:Poor sheet-metal workmanship doesn't look very professional. Of course it's easy to say when looking from such a distance, but I don't see the same kind of ripples on the latest US ships.

Does it matter? Yes. First is stealth

Second is appearance.
Every time a ship is launched or commissioned, some "stealth expert" brings up this question, so I would request moderators to create a FAQ.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal- ... -6750.html
It all depends on the thickness of the plate and the dimensions between frames. A 1/4" thick plate will not buckle, as we say, with closely spaced frames (longitudinal frames on two opposite sides, transverse web frames on the other two). Increase the distances between frames far enough, and that same plate will eventually buckle. The mechanics of buckled plates is complex, and the amount of curvature of the plate between frames, yield strength of the steel (there are many different grades) and the magnitude of the loads are other factors that affect plate buckling. The loads are the most difficult to define, so it is nearly impossible to say what is the cutoff point of any particular design. Experience with past designs is probably the best gauge.

Navy ships have a tendency to the "hungry horse" look more than other ships, because the Navy has general requirements for fast speed, which means the minimum amount of structure for the most amount of power installed (power to weight ratio). Commercial ships, on the other hand, try to operate at the most economic speeds, and they want their ships to last as long as possible, so by comparison, their plates are thicker, the frame spacing closer, and the loads encountered less severe than on combatant vessels.
Happens all over the world.

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... DsRTYGXeK0
It always seems that RN ships are more prone to the ol' hungry horse than most others' ships: is that correct, and if so does anyone know why?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by yensoy »

shiv wrote:
yensoy wrote: I don't see the same kind of ripples on the latest US ships.
Maybe you did not look hard enough
You are correct, I found some high res photos of the Zumwalt, and yes there is some waviness in the sheet metal on it too.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

Singha wrote:Could it be radiator and air intakes for the internal cooling system of the mf star
Its a reasonable guess, but would you not want to cool the mast by extending the existing cooling systems. By placing heat exchangers on the mast you are reducing the IR signature.

I checked for IDF Navy pics for MFSTAR but there is no such panel on Saar 5 corvettes.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by deWalker »

shiv wrote:
yensoy wrote: I don't see the same kind of ripples on the latest US ships.
Maybe you did not look hard enough

Image
Allow me to add:
USS Zumwalt
Image

USS Detroit
Image


Truly we cannot see the forest for the trees.


I do have a mango question however: do the gyaanis on this thread expect some of the deck access elements shown in that INS Chennai pics - railings, built-in ladders, etc. - will go inside the superstructure in future follow-ons?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karthik S »

I too hope so, they look very cluttered unlike the neat design of contemporary stealth destroyers. There are some reports of increasing stealth features on 15Bs. May be they'll do away there.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Khalsa »

can we get over this rippled steel nonsense business.... reminds me of the bajaj wali scooter helmet vs amreekan helmet debate
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Karthik S wrote:I too hope so, they look very cluttered unlike the neat design of contemporary stealth destroyers. There are some reports of increasing stealth features on 15Bs. May be they'll do away there.
Notice even LCS has rails and ladders there is trade off between accessibility and overall RCS reduction. Even then it's is quite minimal removing them from superstructure. DCN has done good job with that on its designs.

As for P15b there is some superstructure changes and redesign of mast but don't expect big departure from Kolkata class. It's P-17A that is supposed to incorporate a great deal of changes in that regard.

As for INS Chennai also it looks like it sports a Hughes navigation radar which I don't believe is present in Kochi or Kolkata.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Eric Leiderman »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

Many commercial vessels are using fibre reinforced plastic for exterior railings and flooring on catwalks.
the reason for same is they do not streak the ships side with rust over time also lighter than steel.
It can be painted over and looks like normal steel railing.
The issue is fire where these structures melt, however if there are alternate routes to escape or attack fire, the classification societies in the merchant marine industry allow for same.
I am not sure of the radar signature of same , however would suspect it is less than steel, So maybe we should cut the navy some slack on this till we are sure of what material railings etc made off.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by ManuJ »

Stealth has a different connotation for navy than for air force.
More important than visual stealth is underwater (sonar) stealth.
And incorporating visual stealth into a 10000 tonne ship requires different strategies than designing a 20 tonne stealthy aircraft.
So don't worry too much about non-stealthy ladders and railings.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sudeepj »

Eric Leiderman wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

Many commercial vessels are using fibre reinforced plastic for exterior railings and flooring on catwalks.
the reason for same is they do not streak the ships side with rust over time also lighter than steel.
It can be painted over and looks like normal steel railing.
The issue is fire where these structures melt, however if there are alternate routes to escape or attack fire, the classification societies in the merchant marine industry allow for same.
I am not sure of the radar signature of same , however would suspect it is less than steel, So maybe we should cut the navy some slack on this till we are sure of what material railings etc made off.
I remember reading a DRDO techfocus that mentioned development of radar transparent railings and similar fitments. The navy is not stupid to design an entire 7500 tonne ship with stealth in mind and then put reflective clutter all over it. See link:

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/ind ... nchion.jsp

"Stanchions are vertical columns to support the guard rails. These are fitted on the edges of the top deck of a ship to prevent persons falling into the sea when the ship rolls due to sea waves. At present the stanchions are made of steel which contributes to radar signature. To reduce this signature, new stanchions have been made with radar transparent materials. These stanchions have met all the requirements of naval specifications. These stanchions give an average radarsignature reduction of 10 dBsm in the x band."
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

tsarkar wrote:
Every time a ship is launched or commissioned, some "stealth expert" brings up this question, so I would request moderators to create a FAQ.
Sir - every time anything Indian is shown in a photograph - especially in a crappy photo from a moronic photographer who does not crop the crap we have Indians saying how good it is in America and China - so FAQs are no use. Indians need to learn to publish good propaganda images and observers need to stop being nervous that Indian stuff is inferior.

Over the decades we have discussed
1. Scooter helmet
2. Different colour uniform
3. Wearing chappal
4. Shirt hanging out
5. Exhaust melting tyre
6. Oil stain
7. Peeling paint
8. Uneven surface
9. Target not actually being blown to smithereens as per image text
10. Smoke cloud of explosion but no fire
11. Marching looks Iraqi not American
12. Not conforming to latest US designs
13. Helicopter rotor blade tips do not look like latest
14. Tail rotor should have been made differently
15. Helo cabin will have ammunition but no place for man
16. Not enough missile tubes on ship
17. Too many men on ship
18. Why 100 soldiers for 3 terrorists

All examples of anxiety that Indians are inferior.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Rishi Verma »

shiv wrote: Over the decades we have discussed
1. Scooter helmet
2. Different colour uniform
3. Wearing chappal
4. Shirt hanging out
5. Exhaust melting tyre
6. Oil stain
7. Peeling paint
8. Uneven surface
9. Target not actually being blown to smithereens as per image text
10. Smoke cloud of explosion but no fire
11. Marching looks Iraqi not American
12. Not conforming to latest US designs
13. Helicopter rotor blade tips do not look like latest
14. Tail rotor should have been made differently
15. Helo cabin will have ammunition but no place for man
16. Not enough missile tubes on ship
17. Too many men on ship
18. Why 100 soldiers for 3 terrorists

All examples of anxiety that Indians are inferior.
OT question, is my observation correct that most of the above mentioned critique is voiced by fully washed NRIs? we partially washed just look at the pictures, spit gutka, and ride away on our smokey scooter. /OT
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

"Vespa" not Bajaj?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Vivek K »

^^^Rishi - related to trump by any chance? The critique is by ignorant posters who are clueless.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Paul »

shiv wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
Every time a ship is launched or commissioned, some "stealth expert" brings up this question, so I would request moderators to create a FAQ.
Sir - every time anything Indian is shown in a photograph - especially in a crappy photo from a moronic photographer who does not crop the crap we have Indians saying how good it is in America and China - so FAQs are no use. Indians need to learn to publish good propaganda images and observers need to stop being nervous that Indian stuff is inferior.

Over the decades we have discussed
1. Scooter helmet
2. Different colour uniform
3. Wearing chappal
4. Shirt hanging out
5. Exhaust melting tyre
6. Oil stain
7. Peeling paint
8. Uneven surface
9. Target not actually being blown to smithereens as per image text
10. Smoke cloud of explosion but no fire
11. Marching looks Iraqi not American
12. Not conforming to latest US designs
13. Helicopter rotor blade tips do not look like latest
14. Tail rotor should have been made differently
15. Helo cabin will have ammunition but no place for man
16. Not enough missile tubes on ship
17. Too many men on ship
18. Why 100 soldiers for 3 terrorists

All examples of anxiety that Indians are inferior.
One more is bulb without covering. An American analyst referred to this in an outlook article 10 years ago.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by kit »

Since flawless skin is in question., i suppose more composites/thermoplastics can provide flawless tone than metal alloys ?.. armor plates weighing a few tons can also provide a nice tone i guess for a weighty lady
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Cosmo_R »

Excerpted from WSJ

Setbacks for New Delhi’s first homemade aircraft carrier slow efforts to face China on high seas

NEW DELHI—When top American naval engineers recently inspected India’s first locally made aircraft carrier they expected to find a near battle-ready ship set to help counter China’s growing sway in the Indian Ocean.

Instead, they discovered the carrier wouldn’t be operational for up to a decade and other shortcomings: no small missile system to defend itself, a limited ability to launch sorties and no defined strategy for how to use the ship in combat. The findings alarmed U.S. officials ​hoping to enlist India as a bulwark against China, people close to the meeting said.
Related

“China’s navy will be the biggest in the world soon, and they’re definitely eyeing the Indian Ocean with ports planned in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh,” said retired Admiral Arun Prakash, the former commander of India’s navy. “The Indian navy is concerned about this.”

The February carrier inspection, in the port of Kochi, formed part of U.S. plans to share aircraft carrier technology with India. Indian naval officials followed up with a tour of an American shipbuilding yard in Virginia and strategy briefings at the Pentagon in September, the people close to the meetings said.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-effort- ... 1480501812
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Zynda »

^^I hope some of the comments are exaggerated but it is concerning. With Navy's close involvement, one would think some of the operational deficiencies would be addressed right during the design phase. I am no expert, but that POV may be an American one which may be different from Indian Navy's.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Bheeshma »

LoL while the PLAN floating junkyard can launch sorties at the rate of 2-3 a day!! What a pathetic article. They are desperately trying to sell their stuff.
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