Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

[ldev]

In support of this - an article by OP Mehra in "Vayu" (screenshot)

A real life example of this but from the Indian automotive industry, based on a personal experience.

People may remember/read that the first great oil price hike happened in 1973 during the Arab Israeli war when OPEC acting as a cartel for the first time quadrupled the price of oil. In India the price of petrol went up I think from Rs 1.50-2.00 per liter to Rs 8.00-9.00 per liter, (people who have more accurate information may chime in if they wish too}. Anyway, the point is that petrol cars suddenly became very much more expensive to run. Especially jeeps made by Mahindra, they were gas guzzlers, I think something like 4-5 kms per liter. There were no passenger car diesels in those days unless you imported a Mercedes Benz or Peugeot diesel car.

There was a German engineer in Nasik in those days, working on some farm project. The farm had a tractor, a tractor made by Mahindra and the tractor had a diesel engine. While everybody in India who owned cars was in despair, this German engineer transplanted the Mahindra tractor diesel engine into his Jeep and started driving it. It made a huge racket, because he did not bother with sound insulation etc, but it worked beautifully. Some months after he had done his transplant, he drove to Mumbai (Bombay then) and at a dinner at his friends house in Mumbai, one of the other guests was an Indian engineer from Mahindra!! Mahindra's jeep sales were in a tailspin because of the petrol price. The Mahindra engineer was astounded when he heard of what the German had done and immediately invited him to the Mahindra factory in Mumbai the next day so that the Mahindra people could look at this Jeep. To cut a long story short, that is how Mahindra made it's first diesel Jeep. The solution was staring them in the face, they made the Jeep, they also made diesel engine tractors, but they had not put the 2 together either because it had not occured to them or the engineering challenge of putting a tractor engine into a Jeep was beyond them. It needed a German who had engineering in his blood to show them the way.

This is a true story and illustrates IMO the many shortcomings of real engineering in India.

Were there such comparable instances with HAL? Who knows?

[JayS]

In support of this - an article by OP Mehra in "Vayu" (screenshot)

Wow..!! Just Wow..!! What he said some 50yrs ago is true even today. Word to word. Indeed there is a culture in India where dirtying hands with some work is considered downmarket. One big reason why Indian engineers are so bad in designing for manufacturing is, as I had tried pointing out in the single engine MII thread (though I could have never said it in better words than this ever..), design engineers consider themselves as 'white collar' class and look down to the production engineer which is considered 'blue collar' job (I have seen these biases right from the engineering college ). Even on shop floor the production engineer would look down to the machine operator. And the hierarchy goes on. And this culture filters down to the pay one typically gets and reputation in society as well, helping propagate the biases in next generations, because many decide on education streams based on such biases.

This reminds me of one of my prof from my college - he would give drawing assignments only on sheets and never on AutoCAD. His logic - Students would copy anyway. With AutoCAD, its just matter of taking another printout. With hand drawn sheets, even if they go for GT, they would at lease hold a pencil in hand.

I always wonder, where this thing came from. I have some thoughts, but this is not the right thread to discuss of coarse.

[Zynda]

^^In Massa, one very senior dude mentioned that if he ever took engineering (mech/aero) position interviews, one of his questions would be to write instructions for changing car engine oil. If the candidate gets his car's oil change at a garage, his eligibility wouldn't go down but answering the question would earn brownie points.

[Zynda]

I am myself an engineer (software though, not a real engineer) and it has taken me few years to figure these out. In the mean while, quite a few of my friends have given up on an engineering role and moved on to other roles (MBA, people management etc). It is this moving-on behavior that must stop. IMO, long lead times are needed to create good Engineers as well.

Saar, unfortunately in India, it pays to be as "generic" as possible and hence MBA/People Management roles. The skills acquired or required for these roles are easily transferable across industries. As a "real engineer" in mid-level position, I can attest how difficult it is in India, given a dull job market.

[Karan M]

yeah but its a tendency of goras to put down everything to caste system. its plain bigotry pure and simple. they come to india, take a look around and then fit everything to their own decided notions. the real answer is in india there is an excess of (un) skilled labor and hence its cheaper to have others to do your stuff for you. also in india, the hassles of day to day living mean nobody has the time to maintain a lathe in their garage and tinker around with all sorts of basic DIY projects unless they are relatively free and able to run their own schedule. spend 16 hours getting through the basics of the day and then talk of making handmade pumps or what not.

there are huge # 's of students now who are into DIY stuff because their parents give them a stable roof over their head & a relatively ok life. it has nothing to do with their skin color, their religion(s), caste, or nationality.. plain and simple, less stress & hence more opportunities. every other day some kid or the other makes some gizmo which their predecessors would never have had the chance to even think of assembling.


where the indian system breaks down is once these people get into the hassle of day to day work, the present system is set up to deliver low cost answers not innovation, which requires constant innovation and nurturing. the common attitude is of extraction not building. because building requires constant investment and the mindset is what if this guy leaves.

many indians also have inculcated the wrong kind of thinking, which is "if i grow i better grow alone".. again, driven by the earlier lack of resources and investment in manpower by organizations which will invest in RE in SF for ROI but not people in dakshnina karnataka etc.

[Rakesh]

^^
Correct. That is why when the British offered the Jaguar to India in 1968, the offer was refused as India was still trying to make a success of the Marut via better engines. But the British refused to sell the RB 199 Rolls Royce engine for the Marut because it was far more profitable to sell the Jaguar as an entire aircraft to the IAF. And by 1978, India had given up on getting a better engine for the Marut and the initial $1 billion Jaguar sale happened.

Sometimes I think that for India, rather than designing an engine for an aircraft, what India needs to do is to design an aircraft around an engine.

Allow me to do a substitution of your post, which by the way is well put.

That is why when the Americans offered the F-16 to India in 2016, the offer was considered as India was still trying to make a success of the Tejas via better engines. But the Americans refused to sell engine technology for the Tejas because it was far more profitable to sell the F-16 as an entire aircraft to the IAF. And by 20XX, India had given up on getting a better engine for the Tejas and the initial $X billions F-16 sale happened

History repeats itself.

[ldev]

History repeats itself.

Yes, unfortunately it does. And the reason seems to be the inability to make future progress especially in engine technology on the basis of a given level of knowledge and skill e.g. after the Mig 21, India had to go back to the Soviet Union for the Mig 23/27 and thereafter to Sukhoi for the SU-30 and their engines. Also applicable to the Jaguar and it's Adour engines.

[brar_w]

We'll the improved engines for the LCA are the F414, and a deal for more than 100 of them had been initialed and agreed upon by both the sides even before the current offer for the F-16's was made. All HAL has to do to that end is follow up on that deal once they have orders for the MK2. Other propulsion based cooperation is being looked at through DTTI but by its very nature that is a long term, long drawn out process and is not directly linked to the LCA.. but is broader.

[Rakesh]

brar saab: You are correct. I was stating the stupidity of this new fighter program called Make-In-India.

[Karan M]

Karan - good points but you dismiss the original perspective far too easily. First, consider your timing - what you speak of is happening NOW - even then the intersection set of good (formal) education + tinkerers/doers-with-hands is disappointingly low.

Agupta in many ways, thanks to reservation etc many indians of today are more aware of caste wagehra. yet they tinker hands on etc. so in short, that caste analogy has a lot of inaccuracy to put it mildly. most outside observers about anything to do with india bring in caste because indians and our great interlocutors who interpret indian society bring it up 24/7.

if an indian basically does not accept a glass of water at a roadside shack - that's caste. if they do something? that's hygiene and avoiding delhi belly.

see the difference?

if they cover their head while going outside? that's to do with india's pollution. if an indian woman does it? that's the yindoo culture of not accepting black skinned people.

seen far too many of these lazy stereotypes and hence they deserve to be called out for what they are. irrespective of whether it is albert smith or whatever name it is.

And in today's aerospace world, thats what is/will be needed. The Polytechnics have been a failure, even though the intent was great. Without a sustained education initiative connected with Make-in-India, this too will be hampered.

err... given our political choices of electing one group to power (ergo zero competition, ergo untrammeled do whateveryouwant) most initiatives end up in middling results. having said that, there is a huge investment in ITIs and many private/public firms are also assisting in upskilling these orgs and investing in them to get results. including infra. still works out cheaper to MII given the low Rs to the $ etc.

Now I know that this Govt. (and to its credit) even the past one HAS been talking a lot to various vocational educational institutes on best practices - but it remains to be seen what they can do and will do.

See above. This govt will do much better (and given what they were facing, its a given) but it will take time. My guess is a decade at least for lasting changes.

Allow me to share one incident that might relate to just how correct and close the Tank perspective is. In the many decades ago that I spent time at NAL, there was a Senior Scientist who worked in, lets say "Design techniques", developed a/c design software etc. I recall clearly one incident where he came back from a Design Review, where we heard that he had been questioned/interrupted on some of his predictions by an IAF pilot (perhaps deputed to the LCA team).. and that some fundamental issues had been challenged. This worthy's reaction when he came back to Belur was (in much saltier Telugu) - essentially "who are these drivers who think they can teach me to design aircraft". This is the contempt a tool maker has for his customer - whereas the relationship is expected to be that between a samurai and his sword-maker.

And let me give a dozen other incidents to show how completely off base Tank was/is. I know of several doctors who happily sat with "menial" laborers, lower economic strata workers (to use usual leftist terminology) & tried out various combinations of medical equipment. many of these people continue to get their "hands dirty" in everything from cleaning their houses to their cars to working on their mechanical equipment.

your incident, is anecdotal - because i can relate many more wherein i have seen engineering students from the 80-90s - one a decade later almost blew a house by tinkering with the electrical wiring ( ), another who spent most of his time working on wood working (and used it successfully for his bijness), another bunch who came up with an idea to move an antenna synchronized to a sat's movement (and were pooh-pooh'ed) by their mentor/advisor.. point is there is no shortage of doers in indian society cutting across religions/castes/what have you... the basic answer is/was lack of opportunity...

in an economically constrained society, bald men fight for combs ad every man has t seek some way of saying he is better than the other.

in today's india too that is an issue. which is the reason jobs which can be done by a BSc go for a MSc & on top of it, it never ends

You have to recall that in the early days, there was a Caste lens that correlated reasonably high with the level of education. Things get better - but don't discount the advantage that 2 or 3 generations of education makes on the ambition/realization level of the next one.

I completely disagree with this because if anything GOI policies and all the reservation stuff has made caste a bigger factor in some ways than previously.

no matter how edumacated indians get and how much progress (or lack thereof) indians make, people from outside will continue to look at indian culture through the elephant and snake charmer angle until and unless indian's smilingly point out that their own "advanced societies" had cobblers and others who were not too welcome at the high table either, modern day marketing and PR of artisans apart.

white or brown or black or anglo-saxon or telugu or whatever, everyone is more or less on the same platter.

[Mihir]

That is why when the Americans offered the F-16 to India in 2016, the offer was considered as India was still trying to make a success of the Tejas via better engines. But the Americans refused to sell engine technology for the Tejas because it was far more profitable to sell the F-16 as an entire aircraft to the IAF. And by 20XX, India had given up on getting a better engine for the Tejas and the initial $X billions F-16 sale happened

History repeats itself.

I thought the IAF was killing the Tejas and not the Americans? And is there a link that points to a US refusal to sell GE F404s and F414s to India?

[Mihir]

Sample this:

I asked SC Das to design the sheer pins so that during ground roll they would sheer off at 90 knots, the speed at which it was permissible to use the ejection seat... But during towing an aircraft at FIS, the canopy flew off due to a minor gust of air. A little later exactly the same thing happened at A&ATU, with a parked aircraft of which the canopy had not been locked in anticipation of some work yet to be done... We confronted SC Das. I asked him how he had designed the sheer pins. SC Smiled and said that not only had he designed it well, he had actually tested the sheering by actual canopy jettisoning on to a net at various speeds to get it exactly right at 90 knots. I then asked him how he arrived at the load on the pins. He looked at me as if I was an utter fool. He said, “You know it very well, half rho v squared s gives me the load”. I asked him what happens to the shock load when the canopy opens and hits the stops. Wouldn’t the load be very much higher? He admitted that they had forgotten to allow for it.

Eh? That's a load of nonsense. If you require canopy pins to shear off at 90 kts ground speed, the designer will calculate the stress in the pins corresponding to the load imposed by the canopy as it is subjected to a 90 kt gust. Then he'll design the pins to fail when the stress in them exceeds this value. If the canopy suddenly opens and imposes an impact load on the pins that is in excess of the strength of the pins, the pins will fail. There is no way to magically have them fail at two different loads.

[Rakesh]

I thought the IAF was killing the Tejas and not the Americans? And is there a link that points to a US refusal to sell GE F404s and F414s to India?

Selling F404s and F414s and opening the family jewel chest for those F404s and F414s are entirely two different things. To be fair to Amreeka though, even France or Russia will not sell us engine technology. I am keeping my fingers crossed on the Snecma offer. As long as they get the Kaveri up & running (even if it is behind closed doors) I would be most happy.

DRDO ties up with Snecma to revive gas turbine engine for Tejas
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 534_1.html

[Indranil]

Hakim,

Thank you for those priceless scans.

Karan, I can only speak of my opinion.

Casteism is alive in India. Not so much in its native form, but in the sense of entitlement. Angrez chale gaye, "angrezi" (entitlement) chor gaye. The "educated", the "powerful", the "elite" are not supposed to do things "below" them, or not supposed to interact or listen to people below them, so on and so forth. "Rutba" is afterall a "virtue". And it's not just in India, its present everywhere, but I must say in much smaller measure. Especially, in the US, Germany, and Scandanvian countries, I have found the culture to be much more open. People are much more hands on there.

[brar_w]

Selling F404s and F414s and opening the family jewel chest for those F404s and F414s are entirely two different things.

But whatever was asked in terms of licences was negotiated during the F404 and F414 negotiations and both parties agreed to those terms. The 'family jewel chest' wasn't expected to come out of that but the much recent DTTI discussions that because of their level of complexity are a long term project and not something that can be done on the quick.

[Rakesh]

^^ Regardless of complexity, no one is going to sell it to India. That is proprietary tech. Trial and error is the only way forward. The point I am trying to make is buying F-16s, F-18, Paper-NG, Rafales is not going to give India anything other than screwdrivergiri.

[Marten]

No, but we must point out every local effort as a failure and call all the teams as incompetents! Why cannot these "buggers" develop a simple jet engine within out limited means, without local infra or even tools of the trade? Must be the damn caste system, and their lack of intellect. Onlee.

PS: Imagine even BSc Grad pilots are able to find fundamental flaws in the systems developed by these chaps. I say, we must dismantle all local R&D and hand over all our savings to a suitable protectors who will keep the IAF flying with the right toys. That is in the nation's best interest, yes?

/sarc

[Rakesh]

That is why Marten saab, Amreeka must teach us how to manufacture. Because we do not know anything. Amreeka must light the way forward. That is what some on this forum are saying.

[ramana]

Abhibhushan ji, please weigh in on tsarkar question.

[ramana]

Mihir, The load for canopy shear should have included the canopy sudden load and not just normal operating loads. In other words they were undersized and sheared at lower levels.

[Yagnasri]

The above Kaveri related B.S. news report has some interesting things

Quotes:
"The Rs 600 odd crore expense for Snecma, which powers the Rafale jets, would be adjusted against the 50 per cent offsets that it is mandated to spend in India. "

and

Snecma, as part of the offsets deal for the 36 Rafale jets India bought for its air force, would handhold the Gas turbine and research establishment (GTRE), which has designed Kaveri, to fix gaps in its performance, address safety concerns, certify and fly it on a Tejas light combat aircraft. The Rs 600 odd crore expense for Snecma, which powers the Rafale jets, would be adjusted against the 50 per cent offsets that it is mandated to spend in India.

and

An upgraded Mark-2 aircraft of Tejas is being designed for a more heavier GE-414 engine by 2025, and the DRDO hopes that the upgraded Kaveri would qualify for the plane by then.

End quotes.

For my mango brain seems to be good plan.

[Karan M]

Hakim,

Thank you for those priceless scans.

Karan, I can only speak of my opinion.

Casteism is alive in India. Not so much in its native form, but in the sense of entitlement. Angrez chale gaye, "angrezi" (entitlement) chor gaye. The "educated", the "powerful", the "elite" are not supposed to do things "below" them, or not supposed to interact or listen to people below them, so on and so forth. "Rutba" is afterall a "virtue". And it's not just in India, its present everywhere, but I must say in much smaller measure. Especially, in the US, Germany, and Scandanvian countries, I have found the culture to be much more open. People are much more hands on there.

Indranil, do the Klintons sit and do things with the smiths from the redneck areas? Guess what that " casteism" is well and alive in the US and was so evident, 'deplorables " votd against them etc that it brought a president who claimed he was not elitist into the chair. Claimed. Meanwhile he too went to whahton or hahvuhd or wherever.

It is India which elected a "chaiwallah" to its PM whereas all those other places..". The "educated", the "powerful", the "elite" are not supposed to do things "below" them, or not supposed to interact or listen to people below them, so on and so forth" are ruled by well heeled oligarchs and media barons or types who charge tens of thousands of dollars for a speech ( and thsts not corruption).

In short, every country has a pecking order and it depends on how large the pie is to claim things are better off, if ever. In the US a crane operator working at a shipyard can earn many thousand dollars equivalent to some fancy MBA freshly minted and both can claim equivalence in std of living and thats it. Thereafter their worlds dont intersect much apart from running into each other at a local bar. If like India, there were hundred thousNd crane operators and the economy was artificially stilted due to soviet style regulations, then the highly educated would have commanded an extra premium or even more likely skedaddled abroad. Wherein of course he would be solemnly informed about the caste system and so forth. It of course has nothing to do with a mismanaged economy.

So, without being facetious, I agree with you that things need to get much better in India. All I am saying is it has to do with where we began from (impoverished colonized populace which elected the wrong leaders) and a mismanaged economy, far more than "cultural factors" because despite those "cultural factors", many Indians are working hands on with their gizmos, the India of old was famous for wootz steel, the pre India british was famed for its artisans & the India of today, with its "non hands on" engineers is churning out Agnis and a deterrent (while the hands on west needs Khan to do so).

Some countries are ahead because their system of education is more practical, their economy robust, population lesser and even access to education is cheaper. They also tied themselves into the winning capitalist alliance post WW2, and hence benefited immensely from free trade and access to technology and outsourced markets. Not to take away from their own hard work but all the above mattered at a time, when India's leaders were busy five year planning away & keeping the Tata's and Birla's at arms length.

IMHO, India's economic and other issues have nothing to do with caste shaste, and at the end of the day, the rich in every country will congregate eith their own kind, and the lowest economic strata will need assistance. Where countries succeed is if they manage the middle strata to the level its the most prominent and hence the country succeeds. But there will always be fatcats at one end and equally, those who need a hand up at the other end. A flourishing middle class will drive any country forward. In India, this stagnated due to following a soviet model wherein individual initiative was suppressed yet unlike the soviet model, even the state organizations were run without proper support, focus

Similarly the bulk of Indias problems can be fixed by common sensical focus on problem areas. Not harping by our supposed well wishers on how yindoos are culturally backward.

It is there that the places you mention are ahead of us and you would have a point there that is what we should aspire towards, a higher standard of living and care because after all

[Vivek K]

The only way forward on the engine front is to copy the ISRO model. Invest in all facilities, choke all imports and put the best brains to work. Kaveri will succeed.

[JayS]

yeah but its a tendency of goras to put down everything to caste system. its plain bigotry pure and simple. they come to india, take a look around and then fit everything to their own decided notions. the real answer is in india there is an excess of (un) skilled labor and hence its cheaper to have others to do your stuff for you. also in india, the hassles of day to day living mean nobody has the time to maintain a lathe in their garage and tinker around with all sorts of basic DIY projects unless they are relatively free and able to run their own schedule. spend 16 hours getting through the basics of the day and then talk of making handmade pumps or what not.

there are huge # 's of students now who are into DIY stuff because their parents give them a stable roof over their head & a relatively ok life. it has nothing to do with their skin color, their religion(s), caste, or nationality.. plain and simple, less stress & hence more opportunities. every other day some kid or the other makes some gizmo which their predecessors would never have had the chance to even think of assembling.


where the indian system breaks down is once these people get into the hassle of day to day work, the present system is set up to deliver low cost answers not innovation, which requires constant innovation and nurturing. the common attitude is of extraction not building. because building requires constant investment and the mindset is what if this guy leaves.

many indians also have inculcated the wrong kind of thinking, which is "if i grow i better grow alone".. again, driven by the earlier lack of resources and investment in manpower by organizations which will invest in RE in SF for ROI but not people in dakshnina karnataka etc.

Agree completely. In fact I myself have used these points at one point or the other in past. But still I feel we cannot brush away our short comings using these reasons. Maybe putting it as a "Caste system" was crass, but that doesn't invalidate the point he was trying to make, IMHO. We will follow the same path of progression that West has been on as the affluence in our society increases. But we can accelerate the process by learning from their experience and leap-frogging in areas wherever we can. I mean there's nothing stopping us really from teaching, in a proper manner, mechanical engineers how important production is and why a mechanical or Aerospace engineer would do good to give preference to what a production engineer has to say about the product, while taking product design related decisions. I know of a couple of examples from INSAS or from Kaveri or from LCA, where if only the designers had heeded to the produceability factor, a lot of trouble could have been saved.

[JayS]

Sample this:

Eh? That's a load of nonsense. If you require canopy pins to shear off at 90 kts ground speed, the designer will calculate the stress in the pins corresponding to the load imposed by the canopy as it is subjected to a 90 kt gust. Then he'll design the pins to fail when the stress in them exceeds this value. If the canopy suddenly opens and imposes an impact load on the pins that is in excess of the strength of the pins, the pins will fail. There is no way to magically have them fail at two different loads.

You are right about that.

[rohitvats]

Eh? That's a load of nonsense. If you require canopy pins to shear off at 90 kts ground speed, the designer will calculate the stress in the pins corresponding to the load imposed by the canopy as it is subjected to a 90 kt gust. Then he'll design the pins to fail when the stress in them exceeds this value. If the canopy suddenly opens and imposes an impact load on the pins that is in excess of the strength of the pins, the pins will fail. There is no way to magically have them fail at two different loads.

You're displaying exactly the same behavior as the designer(s). Before you made the above statement, do you think you exhausted all the options to answer the problem?

And secondly, the problem seems to about the source of load leading to those pins shearing off. Could it have been possible to create a fail-safe mechanism? Something like arm the pins or lock the canopy movement when on ground? With lever/switch released when the pilot does his pre-flight safety checks?

One more thing - likely problem of pins shearing off due to other reasons that aircraft movement seems to have not even been communicated to the IAF. Something on the lines of HAL not telling IAF about 4-gun trials on Marut by them and issues faced.

And because the designer would not provide a fail-safe mechanism, there IAF maintenance guys seem to have found one by always keeping the retaining lever (whatever that might be) engaged.

[Manish_Sharma]

Indranil, do the Klintons sit and do things with the smiths from the redneck areas? Guess what that " casteism" is well and alive in the US and was so evident, 'deplorables " votd against them etc that it brought a president who claimed he was not elitist into the chair. .................

In short, every country has a pecking order and it depends on how large the pie is to claim things are better off, if ever. India's economic and other issues have nothing to do with caste shaste, and at the end of the day, the rich in every country will congregate eith their own kind, and the lowest economic strata will need assistance. ..... Not harping by our supposed well wishers on how yindoos are culturally backward.

It is there that the places you mention are ahead of us and you would have a point there that is what we should aspire towards, a higher standard of living and care because after all

Karan in my teens I read a spy novel published in 60s "Temple of Fear" from Nick Carter Killmaster series. The novel was set in Japan and how Chicoms were trying to create a civil war in Japan by instigating "Burakumin" caste who used to be untouchable in ancient times.... and US helps crush this japanese equivalent of maoists, here from wiki :

Burakumin ( "hamlet people"/"village people", "those who live in hamlets/villages") is an outcast group at the bottom of the Japanese social order that has historically been the victim of severe discrimination and ostracism. They were originally members of outcast communities in the Japanese feudal era, composed of those with occupations considered impure or tainted by death (such as executioners, undertakers, workers in slaughterhouses, butchers or tanners), which have severe social stigmas of kegare (穢れ or "defilement") attached to them. Traditionally, the Burakumin lived in their own hamlets or ghettos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Fear

[Karan M]

thanks manish. as your quote notes every society has some challenge to confront.

jays, you miss the point. its not about "feel" as you have been pointing out yourself in the other thread about HAL & numbers. if you miss the real issue, your answers or methods to address them will be messed up. by following other people's prescription about "what is wrong", the solutions for a resource constrained country will be worse. so by alleging india's caste issue means no answers are possible, that gives a free giveaway to every chap who won't do proper TOT to indian workers @ HAL and then write in his memoirs, india's caste issues mean workers won't talk to each other hence we couldn't do TOT. nevermind instruction manuals were in some other language and the assembly workers were kannidiga and supervisor maratha and both needed english to communicate and the foreign expert only spoke french!
second, what has india exactly gained by creating enclaves for every tribe/caste/religion/what have you in a socialist setup, instead of growing the pie for all? so by claiming this caste or that caste is not handson will we now have caste setup ITIs to teach upper castes to do oil change while lower castes only can do design? this sort of muddled up thinking is the end result of muddled up stereotypes.

fix the basics. have GOI commit to long term programs. get R&D out of beancounting mode. involve users at every stage. have users send their best and brightest for these programs and have them stay. have PSUs committed to local programs and make that a metric of success. have a warchest for SMEs and tax freedom/incentives for localization. spend on fixing curriculum and standardizing it. crack down on unscrupulous institutions and shady folks. put incentives for all students based on economic capability. make higher economic outlay given by GOI == free education == serving national institutions etc.

so many things can be done versus focusing on caste shaste, skin color and what some chap told some dude forty years ago, and woe is india.

[Indranil]

Mihir sir, Jay,

I don't agree with you completely. There are two forces.
1. The shock loads when the canopy opens and hits the stops.
2. Load exerted by the open canopy in an airstream of 90 knots.

Obviously 1 and 2 are not the same for any airspeed. In fact load one at airspeeds of gusts seem to be higher than load 2 at 90 knots. Yet, SC Das seems to have designed the pin for load 1 at 90 knots. I tend to agree with the TPs that the pin should have been designed for the shock loads at 90 knots. Or may be slightly lower, say shock loads at 60 knots. Gusts rarely reach that airspeed. It seems like an oversight by the designer. But this is not uncommon. Designers often make such oversights. I ask the detractors here, how many examples do you want of such oversights from major design houses?

Rohit, I don't think you are comprehending the comment properly. There is obviously a way to keep the canopy latched. And that is what IAF used afterwards. They were looking for some fool-proof solution, "suppose for some reason somebody forgot to latch", or "somebody was lazy to close the canopy on the tarmac and then open it again when doing maintenance in the shed".

[Indranil]

Karan,

As I said, elitism is present everywhere. Even within my friends circle, I openly criticize people with the "Ph.D disease". And yes, Trumps and Clintons are present everywhere. But, in day-to-day life, I find the elitism to be much rarer. For example, I don't see a man with his hands in his pockets overseeing another man waving arms to "labourers" who are actually doing the work. Open-door policies in offices are a norm rather an exception. I don't see pictures of dignitaries cutting ribbons in articles celebrating the launch of a product. I see the actual product. A cop, a road-worker, a nurse, a teacher, a maid, a waiter all earn less everywhere, but I don't see people looking down on them as doing "lesser" jobs. So no, I don't think it is the same.

And I am not singling out India. Our region is a somewhat like that. China is similar, or worse (especially their current generation). Japan and Singapore are not. S. Korea is somewhere in between. These are personal observations, and OT for this thread. So, it is the last on this from me.

[Cosmo_R]

t......
..

so many things can be done versus focusing on caste shaste, skin color and what some chap told some dude forty years ago, and woe is india.

So much indeed. But the problem is not really caste or region. It is the polity that segments Indians into vote banks and plays up the politics of victimization. Everyone thinks they are getting a bad deal and that the other is gaming the system.

Without changing the polity and equally importantly the law (increasing the speed of justice and its transparency) and order (a serious police force that doesn't get slapped around by the public), we're not heading in the right direction.

As a historical palimpsest, the Brits at the height of the Raj controlled India with just 10K troops and bent us to their will. When people realize you can't get away with illegal stuff, that being a self styled neta affords no immunity from speedy justice and that the Indian state has an absolute monopoly on violence, you have the elements of a modern state in place.

[nachiket]

....It seems like an oversight by the designer. But this is not uncommon. Designers often make such oversights. I ask the detractors here, how many examples do you want of such oversights from major design houses?

Excatly what I thought when I read the excerpt. Every aircraft since the Wright flyer has suffered from oversights and design deficiencies which had to be fixed when the issue came to light.

Even the rigorously tested civilian airliners have crashed due to design defects. The 737 flew for decades with a dangerous design defect in the control unit in the tail that could cause a rudder hardover. They only figured it out after 3 accidents and hundreds of lives lost. The DC-10's infamous cargo-door design flaw also caused a major accident even after a previous near-crash had already revealed the problem.

Rohitvats, your comment on the excerpt is also interesting: "This is the kind of 'support' which IAF gets from HAL."

From what I read, HAL never said they wouldn't fix the problem. The IAF decided that it would take too long so they came up with a solution to circumvent it. So how exactly did HAL not provide 'support'?

[Indranil]

Even the rigorously tested civilian airliners have crashed due to design defects. The 737 flew for decades with a dangerous design defect in the control unit in the tail that could cause a rudder hardover. They only figured it out after 3 accidents and hundreds of lives lost. The DC-10's infamous cargo-door design flaw also caused a major accident even after a previous near-crash had already revealed the problem.

Actually, Boeing fought tooth and nail to prove that those were not design flaws for a long time. Many believe that they influenced many NTSB investigators to termed them as pilot suicides or maintenance faults for a long time. All the while when independent crash committees from the countries where these crashes happened said that they were not. It took a Silk Air accident, for them to admit it publicly and pay compensation.

[Indranil]

My understanding is that the Marut took time to accelerate because of lack of thrust. Once it accelerated, its aerodynamics ensured it sustained speed pretty well.

Could you please explain to me how the bolded part is possible? A plane which has very good cruise speed at any altitude will also have very high acceleration in that altitude. That is why the Mig-21s climbed to keep up with the Maruts. As a DPSA aircraft, if a Marut got into an aerial duel, it must be for self defense. It would do exactly what the Jaguar does. In various DACT engagements, whenever a Jaguar is challenged, they dive. And once the Jaguar is at tree tops, even the F-16s have a very difficult time to stay with them or even get a lock by flying higher than them.

Maruts needed better engines. The British had the answers, but they won't budge. IAF budged and bought their aircraft with their engines. That is the same as the customer budged because seller wanted to have his way. When I contrast this with the Aero India'15 incident when the IAF gent publicly took potshots at ADA for Tejas and a lady from ADA/NAL told him in the Q&A that he was not correct. His answer was "Madam, but customer is king"!

[nachiket]

Maybe, we could have threatened to buy the Su-22 or Mirage F-1 if the Brits refused the Adour engines. Aside from that, I don't know what else could have been done if the Brishits were adamant.

[shiv]

Actually, Boeing fought tooth and nail to prove that those were not design flaws for a long time.

This is exactly what BAe did in the story that I tell in this video that most of you may have seen - but I have added an extra comment which I cross post below
The video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKbQdYlpCAY

The comment (lifted from Facebook - from a private group, with permission)

As a follow up of this story here is what I heard from a retired Indian Air Force officer who was peripherally involved:

"Let me clarify that the BAe initially told the IAF that our modification was not the right one and they would not be responsible for any mishaps. But we stuck to our stand as our test pilots and technical staff had gone through the entire modification and confirmed its veracity. A few days later, there was a similar incident in the RAF and they were able to recover the aircraft by following our drill - putting the battery off and then selecting the undercarriage down. A few months later, there was an air show, I think at Dubai. BAe representative there boasted how quick they were to come up with a modification after the incident. Fortunately, one of the representative from HAL was there within hearing distance. He immediately pointed out that it was an Indian modification (we had come up with the solution within two weeks while the British guys were clueless for more than three months) and the British had just copied it and given their own name!"

[Indranil]

Yes, probably there was a way to force a deal for the Adours if IAF would have put its foot down. God knows what would have happened if IAF said that give us the engines, or forget any deal from us. Or, we will buy Jaguars only if you sell us the engines too. Who knows?

But in all fairness, it is not right to blame IAF alone for the state of our aeronautics industry. It was one of the parties. My lament is that we don't seem to have leaned any lessons yet.

[Indranil]

Hakim, and more recently the involuntary popping chairs on our Sukhois.

[JayS]

thanks manish. as your quote notes every society has some challenge to confront.

jays, you miss the point. its not about "feel" as you have been pointing out yourself in the other thread about HAL & numbers. if you miss the real issue, your answers or methods to address them will be messed up. by following other people's prescription about "what is wrong", the solutions for a resource constrained country will be worse. so by alleging india's caste issue means no answers are possible, that gives a free giveaway to every chap who won't do proper TOT to indian workers @ HAL and then write in his memoirs, india's caste issues mean workers won't talk to each other hence we couldn't do TOT. nevermind instruction manuals were in some other language and the assembly workers were kannidiga and supervisor maratha and both needed english to communicate and the foreign expert only spoke french!
second, what has india exactly gained by creating enclaves for every tribe/caste/religion/what have you in a socialist setup, instead of growing the pie for all? so by claiming this caste or that caste is not handson will we now have caste setup ITIs to teach upper castes to do oil change while lower castes only can do design? this sort of muddled up thinking is the end result of muddled up stereotypes.

fix the basics. have GOI commit to long term programs. get R&D out of beancounting mode. involve users at every stage. have users send their best and brightest for these programs and have them stay. have PSUs committed to local programs and make that a metric of success. have a warchest for SMEs and tax freedom/incentives for localization. spend on fixing curriculum and standardizing it. crack down on unscrupulous institutions and shady folks. put incentives for all students based on economic capability. make higher economic outlay given by GOI == free education == serving national institutions etc.

so many things can be done versus focusing on caste shaste, skin color and what some chap told some dude forty years ago, and woe is india.

Karan, while I do not counter your points, what I understood by that caste comment is that he was trying to point out tendency to look down at certain aspects of engineering once you become BTech or MTech or PhD, you feel those things to be beneath your level and not worthy of being done by yourself and in the process miss out of some crucial aspects of engineering - in particular the thing that he mentioned, drafting and how Indian engineers neglected drafting. I only took that point. And no I am not taking what he is saying at face value just because he is saying, but because it already confirms with my own observations through my own experiences and I have already pointed out precisely the same point elsewhere. Because of such attitude we are in a situation where we routinely see mechanical engineer who couldn't tell you which part is which in his automobile or SW engineer who understands zilch of computer HW or electronics engineer who don't understand basic electric circuit. This actually hampers one from becoming a more wholesome engineer and it shows up in his work.

As I said I have some other thoughts on why it might be so, but this is not the correct thread to discuss this, so this is last bit from my side on this to avoid getting raps from mods for going OT.

[JayS]

Hakim, and more recently the involuntary popping chairs on our Sukhois.

The IAF C17 crash also was blamed on human error IIRC, despite there were reports of substandard parts.

This what OEMs always try to do to save their own skin as their reputation in on the line and the modifications are expensive. Every time some accident is blamed on human error, I take it with pinch of salt. There is a big revolving door between the corporates and the Regulatory bodies in US, so things get covered up pretty easily. At the same time its not possible to design 100% full proof system. Its the backlash perhaps which discourages the companies from owning the faults or that simply is the way human nature works.

BTW I see your point regarding the canopy shear pins.