Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

vina · Post by **vina** » 05 Dec 2016 21:17

Singha wrote:if the drydock is suddenly flooded in a rush, and not a slow controlled even rise of water I guess these things can fall.....
so some creaky gate of the dock must have given way and let in a 20feet wall of sea water in a few seconds

Doesn't happen that way. The dock is flooded by opening valves. Only when the pressure on both sides of the gate equalises, the gate can be moved. The gate is held flush against the dock by water pressure. This was basically a huge cock up in the docking/ undocking plan as the root cause.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 05 Dec 2016 21:45

The navy spokesperson had this to say..

“The incident occurred during undocking evolution wherein it is suspected that dock blocks mechanism failed. Further information is awaited,” Navy Spokesperson Capt D K Sharma said.

He also said that damage assessment is being done.

I believe theres no harm in waiting for official word on the matter and the extent of damage rather than getting in a mad rush to be the first to declare the ship a write off.
Its ridiculous.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 05 Dec 2016 21:47

Another western fleet commander is toast.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 05 Dec 2016 21:50

First order of business is to move the Naval Dockyard out of Mumbai. Move it to a location which has a lot of space available, and build up the facility from scratch. Something tells me it will be cheaper than this write-off. Why will a move to a different location make a difference? Just my gut, I feel this place was ok for WWII but we really need to think bigger and it's entirely possible that the restricted work area and civilian shipping traffic means that there were some compromises. But more importantly, it's the psyops factor - a news item saying that a ship capsized in the dockyard in say Cuddalore won't have the same negativity as a photo of an overturned ship in Mumbai, what's supposed to be our commercial capital and world city.

Oh and the move can finance itself by leasing out the real estate freed up.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2016 22:11

Like nirav said, lets first ascertain the facts before jumping to conclusions that Betwa is a write off. That being said, sea water can do a number on electronic components if not properly protected....which in this case it is not. If the ship is salvageable, it would take a monumental amount of effort and a significant amount of cash to get it fighting fit again. She is only 12 years old (commissioned in 2004) and the Navy might undertake that effort. But nothing can be determined until the ship is made to float again upright and a through examination is done.

BTW, Paul...it may not be necessarily the western commander at fault. In fact, I highly doubt it could be. Dockyard workers are more likely to be blamed for this and they do not serve in the Navy.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Dec 2016 22:13

Very sad, a huge loss of life and national embarrassment. We have already lost -

1> INS Vindhyagiri 2010,capsized after a collision
2> INS Sindhurakshak 2013, torpedo explosion.
3> INS Konkan 2013, Fire
4> Torpedo recovery vessel (Astravahini class) 2014

But where the responsibility lies for this accident,Navy or the shipyard?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Dec 2016 22:14

Sid wrote:
But where the responsibility lies for this accident,Navy or the shipyard?

Modi must answer.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2016 22:14

The shipyard is likely at fault for this accident. Each accident is unique Sid, but the optics do not look good for the Navy. What is even more embarrassing for the Navy is this happened right after Navy Day.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Dec 2016 22:29

Yes, accidents are unfortunate. At a high level lot of fire related accidents have occurred in Navy resulting in multiple fatalities. Fatalities also occurred due to inhalation of toxic gases. Maybe we need to fine tune fire fighting/emergency equipment for our sailors.

Although such accidents are avoidable but inevitable, again very sad. I hope we take this incident as a learning point and make sure it's never repeated again.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2016 22:33

Talking about saltwater....

INS Betwa slips at Naval dockyard
http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-ne ... 3HUGM.html

INS Betwa had run aground in January 2014 and collided with an unidentified object that led to a crack in its sonar system, and had also seen saltwater ingress into sensitive equipment.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2016 22:36

Sid: As the navy continues to expand, accidents like this will continue to happen. I am not trying to downplay this, but our media loves to sensationalize everything. Increases their TRP ratings. Like yensoy said though, the navy needs to move out of Mumbai Dockyard and FAST! Karwar could not come any quicker.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 05 Dec 2016 22:39

Rakesh wrote:BTW, Paul...it may not be necessarily the western commander at fault. In fact, I highly doubt it could be. Dockyard workers are more likely to be blamed for this and they do not serve in the Navy.

Ah but military responsibility doesn't work that way! If you are up in the chain of command, you are responsible - whether or not it was caused by your negligence or mischief. The buck stops with you.

Wish our politicians had the same bar.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2016 22:53

Yensoy, there is a story I read once about an Indian naval accident and when the matter reached the military courts, the prosecutor asked the captain of the ship (back story...the ship had an accident and sunk or was seriously damaged and the captain jumped onto a nearby bridge)...were you on the bridge the whole time during the incident? the captain replied yes he was on the bridge. No one bothered to find out what bridge the captain was on

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 05 Dec 2016 23:15

I hope no one is surprised. It's not navy's fault. We as a society don't give a damn about safety, procedures, drills, training.. It's us and not the Navy who keeps losing ships and subs in avoidable accidents. No lessons will be learned so long as we as a nation don't get skilled, trained workers at every level - top to very bottom.

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 06 Dec 2016 00:25

Rishi Verma wrote:I hope no one is surprised. It's not navy's fault. We as a society don't give a damn about safety, procedures, drills, training.. It's us and not the Navy who keeps losing ships and subs in avoidable accidents. No lessons will be learned so long as we as a nation don't get skilled, trained workers at every level - top to very bottom.

not true. as I have some working knowledge of plant life, I can tell you that work place safety is a very high priority and every job is done under the purview of standard operating procedures. the surprise mock drills are conducted with various agencies present, and every action is recorded so that gaps can be identified. every incident major or minor across the globe is discussed everyday between all personnel. so if for a civilian life, such precautions are taken then it would be foolhardy to assume that the armed forces are not undertaking the same activities.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Dec 2016 00:43

ricky: If SOPs are followed to the letter, chances of human error are close to nil. Now if the equipment used was faulty, that is a different story. Some of the recent naval accidents (Sindhurakshak explosion is a perfect example) is because SOPs were not followed. So while precautions exist in the form of SOPs, if they are not followed, you increase the risk of accidents.

List of Indian Naval accidents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_I ... _accidents

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2016 01:42

Rishi Verma et al, How about we give the Navy some time to sort this out?

They are very good at coming to root cause and provide way out.

ramana

titash · Post by **titash** » 06 Dec 2016 01:54

ricky_v wrote:
Rishi Verma wrote:I hope no one is surprised. It's not navy's fault. We as a society don't give a damn about safety, procedures, drills, training.. It's us and not the Navy who keeps losing ships and subs in avoidable accidents. No lessons will be learned so long as we as a nation don't get skilled, trained workers at every level - top to very bottom.
not true. as I have some working knowledge of plant life, I can tell you that work place safety is a very high priority and every job is done under the purview of standard operating procedures. the surprise mock drills are conducted with various agencies present, and every action is recorded so that gaps can be identified. every incident major or minor across the globe is discussed everyday between all personnel. so if for a civilian life, such precautions are taken then it would be foolhardy to assume that the armed forces are not undertaking the same activities.

I've worked in manufacturing units in both India and the US and one has to admit there is a difference in both quality standards as well as safety standards in general. They key is "in general" because you will always find outliers.

However, both quality & safety are directly proportional to the amount of money you sink into assuring quality and assuring safety. You can spend all your money in visual inspections, buddy-checking, automated metrology equipment, big data analytics...and at the end of it you may still have produced nothing because you simply ran out of OPEX money. Quite simply put, both quality and safety are NVA (non-value added) items. Whenever budgets are cut or "agile methodologies" adopted due to pressure from the top, the first thing that gets cut is quality and/or safety. This is true in both India and the US.

If you have a safety organization, you have to pay them. Then you pay to develop safety systems and safety collateral. Then you spend more money in safety training. Then comes annual re-training because else the skills are lost. So on and so forth. Unless you legislate safety and quality (such as OSHA standards in the US) or your customers require compliance with industry standards e.g. ISO 14001, there is no incentive to prioritize these 2 workstreams because at the end of the day these are NVA activities.

Could the naval dockyard justify spending 5-10% of its annual budget over the last 50 years for extra safety and quality? Probably not...there was hardly any money to go around, and any little increase would be absorbed in CAPEX. Its only when incidents like this occur that the powers that be recognize the need to pay up and demand quality/safety as a cost of doing business.

Just to be clear, Admiral Rickover did not have the sub-safe program from day 1. It took 2 submarine sinkings...the USS Thresher and the USS Scorpion before they coughed up the funds to implement sub-safe. I doubt the Russians got so far given their continued stream of nuke sub accidents. But that's what you get for being a semi or non-democratic setup with no accountability.

Here's the wiki link to sub-safe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUBSAFE

The critical questions that no one's answering:
1) how much did sub-safe cost for a one-time set-up? (or how much would it cost to implement the same at Naval Dockyard, Mumbai)
2) how much did sub-safe raise the recurring cost per submarine refit? (and whether the Indian Navy's shipbuilding & repair costs will take a hit)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Dec 2016 02:08

titash: I sent you PM. pls check.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 06 Dec 2016 02:21

It really does not surprise me at all. Indian manager and engineers have little or no practical work experiance. They have been mugging and hardly know how to use a hammer. I am not joking, people find it hard to hang a picture. yes they will know all about ISO bla bla bla, but are totally useless with their hands.
The workers are treated like semi slaves, are usually from a lower income background and also lack craftmanship. Management style is leftover of the Raj.

Only fix to the problem is to copy the German system of apprentership and strict adherere to quality. In germany the worker himself takes pride to deliver perfect product. They are lead by true craftsmen, not useless muggers.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Dec 2016 02:40

We will not be able to copy squat from anyone, if we do not possess a culture of pride of workmanship. That culture trait has to be ingrained not imitated. Imitation is what China does and the results are for everyone to see. INS Betwa is on her side today because some dude did not do his job. It is that simple.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2016 03:28

Folks when an accident like INS Betwa happens we need more news reports and data. And analysis based on that.

Please help out in posting news articles etc with full text and links to help this.

Many people come to BRF for knowledge and what they get are polemics.

Thanks, ramana

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 06 Dec 2016 04:15

The worst part is we are losing the Kh-35 launchers and also it had Barak-1 installed on it. whereas the latest ships like kolkata class are missing them for cost savings i guess.
I wonder if the ship was load with ammo and the missiles at that time.

John · Post by **John** » 06 Dec 2016 04:32

bhavani wrote:The worst part is we are losing the Kh-35 launchers and also it had Barak-1 installed on it. whereas the latest ships like kolkata class are missing them for cost savings i guess.
I wonder if the ship was load with ammo and the missiles at that time.

Missiles and torpedoes would be have unloaded hopefully before it went to refit so write off would be minimal. Launchers are not too expensive but however it also had the EL/M 2238 radar which likely is a total loss. However financial loss is nothing compared to two lives that were lost unfortunately.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Dec 2016 05:11

The string of naval accidents continues.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2016 05:25

Google Cache of INS Betwa topples stories

A good sample is this one

The Navy ordered a board of inquiry into the accident, even as Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba headed for Mumbai.

"The accident could have occurred due to factors like instability while flooding, miscalculation of the load equilibrium, failure of the dock block mechanism, supporting structures not being tightened or the rush of water during flooding," said an officer.

So they have quickly identified five causes. Of this they need to isolate the root cause.

Failure of Dock Block mechanism or Supporting structures not being tightened could be the root cause.

tsarkar can you post dock blocking mechanism for such ships?

Rammpal · Post by **Rammpal** » 06 Dec 2016 05:30

nirav wrote:
If anyone has data on any navy on this planet with zero accidents, I'd like to see that.

Mongolian ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2016 05:35

Wiki on Dry Docks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_dock

What category of dry dock is the refit in Mazgoan Ship yard?

Nirav, Its not about accident free navies.
Its about the trend line since 2010 of accidents in Indian Navy. Its + slope.
Anyway lets see.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Dec 2016 05:46

Singha wrote:a day that will live on in infamy....losing a capital ship like this...this is our uss forrestal fire moment.

either we pull our pants up and fix things from top to bottom or say it happens and move on

Normally i would agree with Nirav-ji on many points but no way can any navy not feel terrible if it looses 5 ships in 6 years in peacetime. I see no harm in raising a question on the safety standards in the dockyards and the IN itself if there is a such a record to show in last 4-5 years

Terrible, terrible record by any yardstick. No point of the "my fly is open, ur fly is open" logic by comparing with others. Even my dad is ex-IN and the jokes about this safety record on their watsapp/FB ex-IN groups make a sad read

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 06 Dec 2016 05:57

As per this report it had cost 600 crores. Served for 12 years.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/wa ... 66916.html

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 06 Dec 2016 07:33

Betwa CO is an ex Harrier chap. Good bloke.

When in dock, ship is dockyards responsibility even during undocking SOP. MDL is a naval dockyard under Naval command IIRC a Rear Adm rank incharge so it's Navy all the way.

Wait for enquiry please.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Dec 2016 07:33

Sad news! Especially the loss of life! Bad day for a great Navy!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2016 07:41

due to welding jobs in refit, all ammo and missiles would be surely removed as tsarkar mentioned. so hopefully all of them can reused on other ships. perhaps the barak1 VLS can be salvaged, cleaned out and moved to needy sister ship.

the sensors and radars on the mast are surely in pieces as that would have borne a impact on the side of dock.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2016 07:42

the machinery most of it can probably be salvaged as spares for the Brahmaputra and Beas..they are bolted on so wont move loosely around . at some cost and effort even the ship can be put back into service...its strong hull and not like the keel broke into two...just slipped and fell on the side.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Dec 2016 07:47

I'd assume we'd repair the ship, it did not sink after some collision or got hit by a missile. It will cost a bit, but it can be done.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2016 07:58

How would that ship be lifted off its side without buckling and tearing parts?

I suspect that large flat slings will have to be passed underneath to lift it a few cm, tilt it back upright by a degree, prop it up there and then repeat the process. It will take a month IMO

I doubt if engines will be torn off. Ships are designed for rolling in heavy seas. However there will be some buckling and bending on the side - such as might occur in case of a side-to side collision

Only Pakis keep live loaded ammo in dry dock. Or maybe not even Pakis.

vina · Post by **vina** » 06 Dec 2016 08:03

Singha wrote:the machinery most of it can probably be salvaged as spares for the Brahmaputra and Beas..they are bolted on so wont move loosely around . at some cost and effort even the ship can be put back into service...its strong hull and not like the keel broke into two...just slipped and fell on the side.

Spares yes. The ship itself I would think is beyond economic salvage. The side plating is gone. The same probably with a couple of transverse frames as well. You are basically looking to cut open the ship and replacing wholesale a lot of stuff. Heavy stuff like boilers , gearboxes would have been ripped out of the foundations and buckled a lot of the internal plating. It aint going to be simple. Building a new hull will be far simpler and cheaper. This is a hull loss. No less.

Ships in many ways are like whales structurally. They are supported by water all along the hull. They are not designed to rest on their sides on a few points like the ship is doing. Same thing that happens when a whale gets beached will happen. The whale's, rib cage and stuff gets crushed and it dies (though it is air breathing). Exact same thing happens to the ships structures

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Dec 2016 08:06

Rakesh wrote:ricky: If SOPs are followed to the letter, chances of human error are close to nil. Now if the equipment used was faulty, that is a different story. Some of the recent naval accidents (Sindhurakshak explosion is a perfect example) is because SOPs were not followed. So while precautions exist in the form of SOPs, if they are not followed, you increase the risk of accidents.

List of Indian Naval accidents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_I ... _accidents

Reminds me of the NOAA-19 incident:

On September 6, 2003, the satellite was badly damaged while being worked on at the Lockheed Martin Space Systems factory in Sunnyvale, California. The satellite fell to the floor as a team was turning it into a horizontal position. A NASA inquiry into the mishap determined that it was caused by a lack of procedural discipline throughout the facility. While the turn-over cart used during the procedure was in storage, a technician removed twenty-four bolts securing an adapter plate to it without documenting the action. The team subsequently using the cart to turn the satellite failed to check the bolts, as specified in the procedure, before attempting to move the satellite.[13] Repairs to the satellite cost $135 million. Lockheed Martin agreed to forfeit all profit from the project to help pay for repair costs; they later took a $30 million charge relating to the incident. The remainder of the repair costs were paid by the United States government.[14]

Would hate to be the technician mentioned in the NOAA-19 who singlehandedly caused $165million write-off to the co.

Wonder who is to blame in this particular INS Betwa case?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Dec 2016 08:23

^Sumji does someone HAVE to be blamed?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2016 08:36

they might pour in more water into the dock to increase buoyancy and try to put in inflatable bladders under parts of the hull to lift things by a few inches for fat slings to pass under it. then a delicate dance of multiple gantry cranes lifting it up...the dockside cranes there are probably way too small and unstable for a load like the whole ship. but there are floating cranes out there which might be rented in.

these puppies can do the job

getting them into the right place relative to the ship and whether the docks layout permits it is the main thing. weight is not the issue.