India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 06 Dec 2016 22:03

Gus wrote:Wait..I thought somebody here defended manafort as just a professional doing his job. Now he is suddenly a danger to India ...

Following revelations about his dubious lobbying activities, Manafort was *fired* from his post as Trump's Campaign Manager, no?

Did you know, at that time, that he would be coming back to influence the Trump transition team after Trump's election? In fact, did you know at that time that Trump was going to be elected?

I still stand by what I said during the campaign, BTW. A professional lobbyist for Pakistan (Manafort) is less dangerous for India than a dyed-in-the-wool Paki Islamist (Huma Abedin) would have been. The one-is-to-one comparison still stands. "Less dangerous" also does not mean "not dangerous at all".

Still, it is the other signs: Mattis, Kashmir-mediation drama etc. that are far more concerning.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2016 22:13

President-elect Donald Trump blasted Boeing on Tuesday for alleged cost overruns and called for the government to cancel the contract, as the company works to build a new fleet of Air Force One that would replace the current aging Reagan-era planes.

“Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4 billion. Cancel order!” Trump tweeted just before 9 a.m. Tuesday morning.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 06 Dec 2016 22:41

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Dec 2016 22:43

Boeing does give them a cost/bill and give then an air-force 1 in return. The Pentagon contracts out research, development, test and evaluation as well as production work based on its requirements. Boeing has so far received $170 Million for the program and the number Trump is citing is a Pentagon estimate on what it expects to pay for the program based on the requirements the USAF has set forth. Neither Boeing, or anyone in the private sector has been involved in the process of determining this dollar amount. It has been the USAF, and the independent (non service) authority tasked by the Congress to determine cost for every future program. CAPE in this case. Trump can reduce the $4 Billion estimate by shaving requirement. The only contracting authority available to get it done for less otherwise is to contract it as a fixed price award and hope that OEM's bid for the work.

http://www.cape.osd.mil/

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Dec 2016 22:45

Don't ask me if I knew manafort will be back. I said he was a paki lobbyist and such concerns were dismissed as 'he is just a pro doing his job'. Now you are saying ' well, yeah ..he's a problem but hey not as much as huma'

You can't circle back everything to Huma. Not anymore.

Btw, Trump is a very vindictive guy and usually such guys are also very loyal to the ones who are loyal to them. Manafort will be back was a given.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 06 Dec 2016 22:46

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 06 Dec 2016 22:55

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 06 Dec 2016 22:55

Gus wrote:Don't ask me if I knew manafort will be back. I said he was a paki lobbyist and such concerns were dismissed as 'he is just a pro doing his job'. Now you are saying ' well, yeah ..he's a problem but hey not as much as huma'

You can't circle back everything to Huma. Not anymore.

You can't move the goalposts and claim victory (unless you learned absolutely nothing on November 8th, in which case, go right ahead

After all, it is almost 45 years since your fellow goalpost-movers successfully defeated the Yindoos at Chhamb and won the '71 war

)

The context in which Manafort was described as "less of a danger than Huma", during the election campaign, was 100% comparative. The assertion made was that Manafort, as a professional lobbyist, is less dangerous than Huma, a committed Islamist ideologue. The reason should be obvious to anyone who can differentiate between those two things: lobbyists, by definition, can be bought while ideologues cannot.

That's why ideologues are almost invariably graceless winners... and sore losers

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Dec 2016 23:00

Gus wrote:Btw, Trump is a very vindictive guy....

Proven by his appointment of Haley and consideration of Romney for SoS, I suppose....

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 06 Dec 2016 23:12

^^that doesnt show it one way or the other. In the former he moved out a challenger away from a state and got a new governor who is more supportive. In the second case it could be construed as bringing someone who campaigned against him down, one wont know unless either of them discloses ... now if he actually appoints him you can say was not vindictive based on this data point

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Dec 2016 23:30

Don't think much will come out of latest Trumpet brain wave.

I recall that when AfPak agency(??) was being setup India was also supposed to be within it remit. That time too the logic was the same i.e. Kashmir or more broadly Indo-Pak relation was the key to a lasting peace in Afghanistan. GOI just told the Americans that such a point person will not get visa to India, perhaps a but more, and that was the end of that proposal.

Assuming Trumpet is keen on inserting himself between India and Bakistan and assuming he is more persistent than the previous presidents he will perhaps be a bit more of a nuisance but nothing that GOI cannot handle. Every US president since Clinton has had this desire to solve Indo-pak issues as one major achievement of their tenure.

He anyway will have his hands full on domestic front very soon. Just because Repubs control both houses of congress does not mean that Trumpet will get a free pass.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 06 Dec 2016 23:36

Arjun wrote:
Gus wrote:Btw, Trump is a very vindictive guy....
Proven by his appointment of Haley and consideration of Romney for SoS, I suppose....

If you believe that above move was a magnanimous move by Trump, I got a bridge to sell you. Trump wanted to remove Haley from the position of governorship in S. Carolina and put in a more pliant white guy. For reasons unknown to me, she took the worthless UN job. Being governor carries more weight than the UN job. If it was a Cabinet level position, sure I would understand, but an UN ambassadorship?? Utterly worthless.

Romney is too stupid to realize that he is being taken for a ride by Trump.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 06 Dec 2016 23:38

Rudradev wrote:
Gus wrote:Wait..I thought somebody here defended manafort as just a professional doing his job. Now he is suddenly a danger to India ...

Following revelations about his dubious lobbying activities, Manafort was *fired* from his post as Trump's Campaign Manager, no?

Did you know, at that time, that he would be coming back to influence the Trump transition team after Trump's election? In fact, did you know at that time that Trump was going to be elected?

I still stand by what I said during the campaign, BTW. A professional lobbyist for Pakistan (Manafort) is less dangerous for India than a dyed-in-the-wool Paki Islamist (Huma Abedin) would have been. The one-is-to-one comparison still stands. "Less dangerous" also does not mean "not dangerous at all".

Still, it is the other signs: Mattis, Kashmir-mediation drama etc. that are far more concerning.

And you chose to ignore those signs because of your blind hatred for Huma Abedin. Your aspersions re Huma Abedin carries no weight. Even HAF, a Hindu advocacy group has come out in support of her and reject the very allegations you are making.

Face it, you own this thing. You were the cheerleader for Trump. Now you own anything that Trump does with regard to Kashmir or Pakistan or India.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Dec 2016 23:41

Yayavar wrote:^^that doesnt show it one way or the other. In the former he moved out a challenger away from a state and got a new governor who is more supportive. In the second case it could be construed as bringing someone who campaigned against him down, one wont know unless either of them discloses ... now if he actually appoints him you can say was not vindictive based on this data point

Ok, what about Todd RIcketts and Betsy deVos then ?

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 06 Dec 2016 23:42

I have no idea who they are ...you may need to explain how it proves one thing or the other

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Dec 2016 23:44

Yayavar wrote: I have no idea who they are ...you may need to explain how it proves one thing or the other

Both are recent Trump appointees...You can google them and also their history as Trump-critics prior to the elections

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 06 Dec 2016 23:50

fine, but are they of Romney and Haley prominence?....In any case the first two examples dont prove non-vindictiveness is all I wanted to say. Doesnt mean he is vindictive either. Will see in future what turns up.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 06 Dec 2016 23:53

Rudradev wrote:
Still, it is the other signs: Mattis, Kashmir-mediation drama etc. that are far more concerning.

Hillary with a list of known negatives made lots of BRFites assume Trump, who was/is completely unknown, to be good for India. As noted earlier, prior to election, his views and behaviour are unknown. It could be made of similar negatives as Hillary's presumed policy or some mix. Will have to wait and see. India will have to, as she has all this time, deal with whatever policy is put in place. It is stronger now anyways that when RR held the roost for example.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Dec 2016 23:53

Hitesh wrote:
Arjun wrote: Proven by his appointment of Haley and consideration of Romney for SoS, I suppose....
If you believe that above move was a magnanimous move by Trump, I got a bridge to sell you. Trump wanted to remove Haley from the position of governorship in S. Carolina and put in a more pliant white guy.

Yes!

For reasons unknown to me, she took the worthless UN job. Being governor carries more weight than the UN job. If it was a Cabinet level position, sure I would understand, but an UN ambassadorship?? Utterly worthless.

In my opinion, it is one way for a personable, popular governor who is in her second term and hitting term limits in 2019 to get some foreign policy exposure to burnish her credentials for a run for President in 2020. Obviously there are other positions which would be better, but perhaps this is the best she can hope for; and she likely would have nothing close to this opportunity if Clinton had won.

This link is to an article from February 2016, when she had an 80% approval rating (it has since come down).
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... ina-213657
"The Mainstreaming of Nikki Haley"

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Dec 2016 23:55

As to NatSec advisor Flynn, only Trumpites and GOPers excuse such behavior.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/f ... teen-times
Report: Trump's NatSec Pick Pushed Fake News 16 Times Since August

The report cited Flynn's retweet of a post claiming that Hillary Clinton "secretly waged war" on the Catholic Church and another which called President Barack Obama a "jihadi" who "laundered" money for Muslim terrorists in Iran.

Flynn promoted a claim that John Podesta, Clinton's campaign manager, took part in occult rituals involving bodily fluids. He also posted tweets suggesting that Clinton's emails contained information on "Money Laundering, Sex Crimes w Children, etc" and asking readers to "decide" for themselves based on a "MUST READ" article by True Pundit, a fake news site.

During the presidential campaign, True Pundit pushed the false claim that Clinton wore an earpiece during a debate. The site broke into the mainstream after publishing a bizarre conspiracy theory that Clinton led a child sex trafficking ring run from the basement of a Washington, D.C. pizza restaurant, which Flynn promoted a week before the election.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 07 Dec 2016 00:00

A_Gupta wrote:
Hitesh wrote:
If you believe that above move was a magnanimous move by Trump, I got a bridge to sell you. Trump wanted to remove Haley from the position of governorship in S. Carolina and put in a more pliant white guy.
Yes!

For reasons unknown to me, she took the worthless UN job. Being governor carries more weight than the UN job. If it was a Cabinet level position, sure I would understand, but an UN ambassadorship?? Utterly worthless.
In my opinion, it is one way for a personable, popular governor who is in her second term and hitting term limits in 2019 to get some foreign policy exposure to burnish her credentials for a run for President in 2020. Obviously there are other positions which would be better, but perhaps this is the best she can hope for; and she likely would have nothing close to this opportunity if Clinton had won.

This link is to an article from February 2016, when she had an 80% approval rating (it has since come down).
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... ina-213657
"The Mainstreaming of Nikki Haley"

Then she could have run for Senator or something and carry her own weight. Now she is completely out of politics.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Dec 2016 00:28

Hitesh wrote:
And you chose to ignore those signs because of your blind hatred for Huma Abedin. Your aspersions re Huma Abedin carries no weight. Even HAF, a Hindu advocacy group has come out in support of her and reject the very allegations you are making.

Face it, you own this thing. You were the cheerleader for Trump. Now you own anything that Trump does with regard to Kashmir or Pakistan or India.

Casting aspersions? Making false allegations? My, my!

viewtopic.php?p=2079067#p2079067

You might want to dive in and retrieve your own credibility from the toilet before accusing other people of anything else.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 07 Dec 2016 00:38

Rudradev wrote:
Hitesh wrote:
And you chose to ignore those signs because of your blind hatred for Huma Abedin. Your aspersions re Huma Abedin carries no weight. Even HAF, a Hindu advocacy group has come out in support of her and reject the very allegations you are making.

Face it, you own this thing. You were the cheerleader for Trump. Now you own anything that Trump does with regard to Kashmir or Pakistan or India.
Casting aspersions? Making false allegations? My, my!

viewtopic.php?p=2079067#p2079067

Maybe you should dive in and retrieve your own credibility from the toilet before accusing other people of anything.

I don't need to defend myself from the likes of you. I know enough of your post history that you attacked Huma Abedin based on her faith and background. As for the other post, yes you did attacked several posters for supporting Hillary and hid behind some pseudo fundamentalist religious BS that it is not even worth my time or effort to rebut or rehash it.

As for diving into the toilet, judging based on your post, i think you are speaking from experience.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Dec 2016 00:39

Hitesh wrote: As for the other post, yes you did attacked several posters for supporting Hillary and hid behind some pseudo fundamentalist religious BS that it is not even worth my time or effort to rebut or rehash it.

So in other words, you CANNOT point to any specific post of mine to prove your point.

You have ample time to troll here and make baseless, vapid, personal allegations (in lieu of genuine argument) against other posters.

But when called on to substantiate those allegations, your precious time suddenly runs out.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 07 Dec 2016 01:15

I recall your argument with HKHair over Huma Abedin's origins. A simple search would reveal that. And I recall a post you made to another poster re EJ conspiracy theories,etc. and how by supporting Clinton over Trump, that poster was being anti-Hindu or anti-India or something. After I read the first couple lines of that post, I knew that your posts are not anything of value and you just engage in fear-mongering and subscribe to fake news or the like of it hiding behind sophistry. People can see through LokeshC and Habal easily because they are so direct and their motives so flagrantly obvious. But I'm not fooled by you.

If you want me to call out each post you make, I can certainly do that if it means unmasking you for what you are.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Dec 2016 01:18

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 07 Dec 2016 01:21

so much of SMH leads to wearing a neck collar.

Anyone who can't counter by data (news items either fake or real, quoting or linking past posts - after searching, etc.) due to whatever reasons please resist from going on and on about it. You make an opinion and right or wrong if it can't be substantiated, then please spare the rest of us.

I respect many of y'alls opinions but let's not get the thread locked.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2016 01:56

Guys you are pilling over form the other locked thread.
I suggest stop baiting each other.

Election is over.

Why is there so much angst?

Hitesh, Gus, Arun, Yayvar each get one post to explain.

Lalmohan you don't live in US but if you feel the need go ahead.

After this no more.

Just so you all know. Indian American communities all across the US are being rent asunder by those who don't accept HRC defeat. Thanksgiving has been deplorable in many homes due to this reluctance to let go and holding grievances.
Even rioters have given up.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 07 Dec 2016 03:00

I think the marginal Indic support for Trump over Hillary was predicated mainly on two things:

One was Hillary's and the SD gangs' proven, consistent track record of using the bully pulpit as well as physical aggression (either via proxies, internal sepoy factions, direct, or EJ ) to box India in and harness it like a beast of burden at best. This was the known problem.

The second was that whether or not Trump would be friendlier to India or not, his rise unmasked the real forces that animate the American mind and its foreign policy - their prejudices, their disguises and guile, and the vision for the world that makes them cream their pants.

If Trump, Pence and Mattis are going to play matador in Sooth Asia, then so be it - but it doesn't discount the positive gained that they can and must be made to forego the disguises, multicultural tolerance bully pulpit, the anti-fascism lectern, and the pedophile charade of Christian charity that constitute their main fronts within India, employing an army of Indian dupes.

Secondly, India has hedged its foreign policy well (with only some damage). If Mattis persists with an overt anti-Iran policy, then there is some benefit to India's leverage with Iran, and by extension northern Afghanistan, Tajikistan, etc.

If Trump reverses (or fundamentally changes) Nixon's pivot to China, that may also open up new possibilities in India-China relations. In the grand scheme of world history, this is an alliance that is waiting to happen.

The main takeaway should be the falling away of the mask and proxies (and in some cases sincere belief) of Uncle and his dupes within India. Every opportunity could be taken to highlight the bigotry, racism, fascism, sexism, and whatever other bad 'ism' they have pelted others with from their glass houses.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 07 Dec 2016 03:47

Ramana: I think you are ascribing angst. Is there any post that laments the win or loss?

The last comment on the 'angst' at Mattis or Kashmir-mediation drama was to make the point that Trump is unpredictable. Certainly the faith in him on India-related policy because the opponents policy had a known slant is most likely going to be misplaced.

That does not mean one is unhappy at needling of China. Or one is going to be happy at EPA curtailment. As with any there will be positives and negatives.

Frankly we will not be able to have any conversation if any non-supportive comment on Trump is taken as not accepting the election. If it is really necessary can remove Hillary and replace it with Obama/democrat party policy when need for comparison arises.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 07 Dec 2016 04:25

My view is not to read too much into Trump's comments yet.

Trump wants to project himself as a maverick deal maker. So he is trying to poke his nose in very unorthodox ways in almost everything he considers important.

VP Pence may be little anti India given his EJ leanings (he would think of India as pagan land) and closeness to India baitor Don Burton. However, there is no indication that Trump will listen to any of his suggestions in foreign policy or national defence or economy. His role might be limited to furthering domestic social policies that are close to conservative republican base.

The cabinet appointees are real and indicate the kind of policies one can expect from Trump government. His NSA is overtly and rabidly anti-Islam, not just anti Iran. Def Sec Mattis is former CENTCOM. More than anyone else, he would know Paki perfidity first hand. At the same time, he has a skill that Trump and his NSA lack. He manages to maintain cordial relationship with his enemies while plotting his work professionally. He may throw a few crumbs to Paki generals for some tactical gains in Afghan, but can be expected to be very effective in defanging Haqqani network, which is aligned with India's goals in Afghan. Note than India does not want US to leave Afghan at present. That would mean ceding end game fully to Pakistan and Taliban rule there.

On the China front, Trump is taking an overtly confrontational attitude which will move US to a closer strategic positioning with China.

The only major pinprick could be Trump's penchant to play role of a deal maker in Kashmir issue. India needs to be firm but conduct its communications privately. No need to have Trump have a public loss of face on this issue.

Trump's other cabinet picks including Ross (with positive India investment connection) and Haley (India can use a friendly in UN where we are not on UNSC) are good news for India as well.

I am waiting for his Sec of State pick. Lot will depend on that candidate and whether he/she has Trump's confidence.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 07 Dec 2016 04:40

Pakistan seems to realise dangers to it due to Trump government more than anyone else. Their strategy seems to be to get a foothold into to incoming administration through their stooges - Dan Burton (to influence Pence), Manafort, and resurrect Robin Raphael.

Also, they would try to massage the giant size ego of Trump to get some crumbs and create fissures in US India relationship due to Trump's penchant for issuing I'll thought through off the cuff remarks on sensitive topics. That explains the desperation of Pak to firm some personal rapport with Trump and his key cabinet members. Thats the only chance for Pakistan.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 07 Dec 2016 04:54

I do expect Trump admin to sell India armed drones and ECLOS (sp?) tech for aircraft carriers. India can expect high degree of intelligence collaboration in battling terrorism.

The defence relationship cemented by Carter can be expected to continue and gain further momentum. Where we need to watch out for are the in negotiations where Trump will play hard ball. Expect $ cost of military purchases from US to go up especially if we want to MII. We also need to ensure that Pukis do not get weapon systems that are of concern to us.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 07 Dec 2016 05:12

(One version of) The back story behind Taiwan call

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/art ... -on-taiwan

Former Sen. Bob Dole has worked for months furthering Taiwan's interests with the Trump campaign and the transition team – efforts aside from his likely role facilitating a controversial phone call between the president-elect and the leader of the island nation, according to disclosure forms filed with the Justice Department.

The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office, the official representative of the Taiwanese government in Washington, paid Dole's law firm, Alston & Bird LLP, $20,000 a month to advocate on Taiwan's behalf in the U.S., according to public documents first reported by BuzzFeed that were filed in accordance with the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

...

If small countries like pakis and taiwan can achieve so much by lobbying, why not we?

PS: And many other countries achieve much more with lobbying.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Dec 2016 06:20

Good for Dole.Now for our own PM to have a chat with his Taiwanese counterpart.We must play the "T" card judiciously. Stapling visas for our citizens living in Ar.Pr. and J&K is a gross insult.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 07 Dec 2016 09:16

ramana wrote:Guys you are pilling over form the other locked thread.
I suggest stop baiting each other.

Election is over.

Why is there so much angst?

Hitesh, Gus, Arun, Yayvar each get one post to explain.

Lalmohan you don't live in US but if you feel the need go ahead.

After this no more.

Just so you all know. Indian American communities all across the US are being rent asunder by those who don't accept HRC defeat. Thanksgiving has been deplorable in many homes due to this reluctance to let go and holding grievances.
Even rioters have given up.

I have angst because the majority of Indian Americans were so shortsighted and failed to see the true threat of a Trump presidency - the rise of white supremacists/nationalist forces. I have several Indian friends who voted for Trump faced the brunt of those fear mongering hate spreading people and I had to tell them that they had to own it because they voted for Trump and paved the way for those forces to come into fore.

Trump already backtracked on many of his promises during the campaign.

Trump says whatever he thinks that you want to hear so he can get your support. Once he gets yours, he disposes of you like the same way China disposes of Pakistan whenever China gets what she wants. And we all have to pay the price for it. Clinton is manageable. Why? Because India already knew how to manage Clinton through experience. With Trump, who knows?

As for the rioters, don't bet on them giving up. They are just staying low until Trump assumes the presidency. There are already plans for a million person march on the day of the inauguration.

I have come to terms with the reality of a Trump presidency but I really can't come to terms with the fact that a majority of my brethren, my community voted overwhelming for Trump despite the very strong evidence of white supremacist support in his army of supporters and the strong influence herein. You guys complained of Huma Abedin's influence due to her background and yet you gave a free pass to white supremacists supporting and influencing Trump. That is what really gets my goat.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Dec 2016 09:29

Rudradev wrote:
Gus wrote:Don't ask me if I knew manafort will be back. I said he was a paki lobbyist and such concerns were dismissed as 'he is just a pro doing his job'. Now you are saying ' well, yeah ..he's a problem but hey not as much as huma'

You can't circle back everything to Huma. Not anymore.

You can't move the goalposts and claim victory (unless you learned absolutely nothing on November 8th, in which case, go right ahead After all, it is almost 45 years since your fellow goalpost-movers successfully defeated the Yindoos at Chhamb and won the '71 war )

The context in which Manafort was described as "less of a danger than Huma", during the election campaign, was 100% comparative. The assertion made was that Manafort, as a professional lobbyist, is less dangerous than Huma, a committed Islamist ideologue. The reason should be obvious to anyone who can differentiate between those two things: lobbyists, by definition, can be bought while ideologues cannot.

That's why ideologues are almost invariably graceless winners... and sore losers

WHAT is with the constant 'you are a paki' insinuation in this subject whenever some contrary opinions are posted?

first it was UB and now it is you. DISGUSTING.

And Ramana - what is your opinion on this? Do you have anything to say other than asking me about my "angst" ?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 07 Dec 2016 09:48

Fully support Gus on this.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 07 Dec 2016 09:59

Simple translation of RamanaJi request : this thread is about india-US relations. This thread is not about ppl arguing about US erection result with each other. Erection happened Hillary got screwed and Trump baby is born now why worry about erection.

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Dec 2016 10:33

Trump resembles Modi when he says things like this

Trump:Softbank of Japan to invest $50 billion in US, and create 50,000 jobs.

http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/articl ... plate-Main