Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 09 Dec 2016 23:11

No need for sadness. At least such top kleptocrats are going to jail which so far have got scot free and this is just the tip of the iceberg which got exposed and political will is on display to have a honest administration.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Dec 2016 23:14

I am sad for what it has done to the IAF. The IAF is bigger than just one man.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Dec 2016 23:40

SBajwa wrote: Why use Persian/Arabic words for Dr. Sahib?

it goes back to the LMU dins... (the home of the kendostyx sistas)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Dec 2016 02:54

shiv wrote:Air Marshal (retd) Tyagi, former CAS arrested by CBI

A TACDE instructor to boot and one of the 1st pilots to be trained on Jaguar photo recce. Someone ideally young top guns would look up to. Instead he just turns out to be a common thief screwing his country. Clearly corruption knows no bounds.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Dec 2016 18:55

Truth be told, I think CBI is on very flimsy ground with respect to any charge of wrong-doing by ACM Tyagi.

The process of changing the specifications of the helicopter tender were initiated before his tenure, the trials happened after his tenure and the contract was signed during tenure of N+2 air chief (where N=ACM Tyagi). And the GOI of the time has maintained that one of the key specifications (ceiling height) was changed basis inputs from then NSA, Brajesh Mishra while the criteria of cabin height (1.8 meter minimum) was brought in basis inputs from SPG.

CBI's argument is that IAF agreed to relaxation of ceiling requirement under his tenure, something which it had opposed before. And hence, this must have been done for monetary gains. Fact of the matter is, IAF was reduced to ONE of the entities in decision making and all relaxations were part of group decision.

Second contention is that IAF tested a version of AW-101 which was not exactly same as all modifications requested by IAF - this again does not fly because one, trials happened under N+1 Chief and AW-101 is a proven platform which has been service for more than a decade. Modifications asked for by us were simply add-on and nothing earth shattering.

My conspiracy theory says that he has been arrested only as a cover to catch big fish and prove GOI/agency is neutral. He is meant to go free. Any half decent lawyer will thrash CBI's case against him.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 10 Dec 2016 20:57

-deleted-

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Dec 2016 00:00

1. This is OT. Please take this hypernationalism to somewhere else.
2. Many words have gotten assimilated into Hindi over the ages. Hakim, tamanna are called tadbhao words. If you don't like those words, don't use them. Please don't give gyan to others. I have called him Hakeem for years now and I am going to call him that way.
3. Chupke chupke was not a barb against Hindi. I find it strange how you have to point out that it's maker is a Bengali.
4. Bengalis are extremely proud of their language, culture, food, and personalities. It is my opinion that many of them are too proud of it, and that the laziness brought forward by this comfort we find in our history is partially responsible for the states current downfall. But what your uncle said about Bengal is not true. I have lived in 8 Indian cities in 8 different states, and 3 countries. I can say with some pride that bengalis are some of the most accommodating people you will meet. When you visit bengal, nobody holds it against you that you can't speak Bengali. They will try to speak to you in whatever broken Hindi they can manage.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Dec 2016 00:51

^ Indranil - +100.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Dec 2016 08:51

India to get Rafale fighter jets in 3-yr time: IAF chief Arup Raha

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 919019.cms

"Rafale contract caters for delivery time between 36 months to about 66 months if I am not wrong. So within three years time we will have the first few aircraft delivered to us and within five and a half years we will have two full squadron of aircraft in operation," Raha said at a function here.

When asked about the depleting strength of jets, he said besides Rafale, India is going to produce Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in large numbers.
"The effort is on to increase production lines. The more the number of aircraft we produce, the faster we ramp up the capacity to close the gap created by obsolete and old aircraft," Raha said.

On the Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), Raha said they are already working with Russia on research and development.

"The project is already negotiated. Preliminary design on our part is over and if this R&D negotiations are over and we sign the contract then we should have these aircraft in another 5-6 years," Raha said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Dec 2016 12:31

Rohit,spot on.ACM Tyagi couldn't have organised the scam all by himself.Even if he is part of the conspiracy,the helo is excellent,having beeen chosen by the USMC for Marine Corps 1 ops.O'Bomber cancelled it on the issue of cost,really a sop to US manufacturers who didn';t want the US pres to fly in an EU helo. When the scam burst open,the huge cost diff for the helos,that too far more than even what the US pres. required,was evident that hanky-panky happened.The origin of the scam is definitely the PMO as the requirements and demand originated there.The larger number needed for extra VVIPs,perhaps "First Familia? members?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Dec 2016 00:30

I did not where else to post this...

Four IAF officers complete Fighter Controllers’ course
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 946835.cms

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Dec 2016 14:32

Xcpt from a piece in the LCA td from the Diplomat on the IN dumping the NLCA..

"Misgivings about the LCA program, however, go beyond the perceived disregard for specific functionality. In an article in July this year, Admiral Arun Prakash (retd.), a former chief of naval staff, outlined three reasons why the military leadership was apprehensive about the project. Firstly, Prakash pointed out that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the huge public sector firm manufacturing the LCA, is a monolithic, indolent giant with a work ethos that “struck dread in the hearts of air-warriors.” The company’s unionized employees were a cause for low productivity and poor production engineering standards that created many maintenance and inter-changeability problems on aircraft. Secondly, there was a high failure rate of HAL manufactured components and systems that didn’t inspire confidence among military aviation managers. And lastly, Prakash pointed to the suboptimal production support, which often left “HAL customers high and dry.”

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 13 Dec 2016 20:58

Time to rope in Saab for second line for LCA for IAF and export. Take their help to expedite LCA M2 and improve production quality. They have gained experience with Gripen-E which they can bring on the table to get production sharing work for LCA.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Dec 2016 21:02

If horses could have wings. Why would SAAB manufacture LCAs in India?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Dec 2016 20:39

the best way to improve production quality would be to involve someone like Tata Motors

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 14 Dec 2016 21:43

Lalmohan wrote:the best way to improve production quality would be to involve someone like Tata Motors

So we can avoid whatever they are doing?

J/K. However, they haven't transitioned their gains from JLR even now - there appears less hope for the automation lessons to be applied in India for a while. They just run them like separate cos. Not a sign of a firm that can absorb and transmit learning.

We finally access to Japanese makers (not just car makers), and can definitely gain from their inputs. While they are disallowed from collaborating with most Indian cos, they can be associated with design houses for industrial guidance.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 14 Dec 2016 21:44

Indranil wrote:If horses could have wings. Why would SAAB manufacture LCAs in India?

Few random thoughts,
If F-16 is selected for single engine, SAAB will have to be rewarded in some contract, for their continuous support and involvement to push other players in offering better terms to India.
With F-16 selected, Gripen-E market prospect and future is bleek.
With India interested in exporting LCA, it will be a cheaper competitor in the same class.
LCA will come alive and will be exported regardless of any foreign entity supports or not.
It is one of the same reason Dassault is interested in profiting by helping with Kaveri Engine.
With Radar gone to Israel, Engine to Snecma, there is not much left for Saab to gain from any other component, other than help in manufacturing process.

I am just dreaming

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Dec 2016 22:49

Saab is not that short sighted. Why will it help create competition for its own future product, for a mere consultancy fee of manufacturing LCAs in India.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 14 Dec 2016 23:01

Tyagi sir may get out on technicalities but his conduct definitely was rotten. His role in the whole aakash spyder saga is extremely inappropriate. Someone who has reached the pinnacle of his chosen trade ... sigh!

Tyagi and Ruia Sirs are the only 2 big fishes caught on corruption ground so far since DeMo started. My CT is that both are to satiate the "big name" thirst of the aam junta; not that these two are 'dudh ka dhula' in any which way!!

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 15 Dec 2016 02:12

Indranil wrote:Saab is not that short sighted. Why will it help create competition for its own future product, for a mere consultancy fee of manufacturing LCAs in India.

Short sigtedness or not, that is the only thing left for them in LCA to profit from. It is for them to profit from it or leave it.
LCA is going to be a compatitor no matter what in the single engine class.

So pragmatism dictates that, they be a part of it and profit from the ecosystem, rather than compete from outside, Gripen is going to be way costly compared to LCA, and if LM is serious about getting market for F16 as well, Gripen is finding it difficult to get much market.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2016 03:14

So it is not in their best interest to make LCA == Gripen. They would like to go to town saying that Gripen is more capable and hence the increased price is justified.

"Consulting on LCA production" is nothing but a sweetener for Gripen orders thrown in casually. There are many leaks between the cup and the lips. Getting Tier II and Tier III supplier going has been tried earnestly for a few years now. It is not easy for the business volumes, bureaucracy, producer-supplier nexuses etc. Many govt. and agencies have tried to break them. They are coming along, but incredibly slowly. Why would Saab get into this mess?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Dec 2016 07:53

Picklu wrote:Tyagi sir may get out on technicalities but his conduct definitely was rotten. His role in the whole aakash spyder saga is extremely inappropriate. Someone who has reached the pinnacle of his chosen trade ... sigh!

Tyagi and Ruia Sirs are the only 2 big fishes caught on corruption ground so far since DeMo started. My CT is that both are to satiate the "big name" thirst of the aam junta; not that these two are 'dudh ka dhula' in any which way!!

If public wants "big names"''', why leave out the laloos and others..

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Dec 2016 08:39

ragupta wrote: Short sigtedness or not, that is the only thing left for them in LCA to profit from. It is for them to profit from it or leave it.
LCA is going to be a compatitor no matter what in the single engine class.

So pragmatism dictates that, they be a part of it and profit from the ecosystem, rather than compete from outside, Gripen is going to be way costly compared to LCA, and if LM is serious about getting market for F16 as well, Gripen is finding it difficult to get much market.

LCA will not be a competitor, not with the thought process displayed.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 15 Dec 2016 08:49

Tyagi was in the LCA panel discussion video of former AM, ACMs, CNS etc including the now infamous Matheswaran.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 15 Dec 2016 10:28

If public wants "big names"''', why leave out the laloos and others..

Politically you cant go after heavyweights like Laloo, the Gandhi's, Mayawati etc. RealPolitk terms everybody in a sense has evidence against everybody else (the custodian of such evidence are usually bureaucrats who use it as KMA insurance). This leaves the flank open to target the likes of Amit Shah and other BJP heavy weight who are equally as bad.

So realistically not going to happen.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Dec 2016 10:41

rkhanna wrote:the custodian of such evidence are usually bureaucrats who use it as KMA insurance

You mean KYC insurance?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Dec 2016 11:01

Indranil wrote:So it is not in their best interest to make LCA == Gripen. They would like to go to town saying that Gripen is more capable and hence the increased price is justified.

I dont think Tejas would be a competitor to Gripen any in near and medium term , Exporting Tejas would also need export licence from the 3rd party vendors involved , So it is complicated.

If Saab is found to value add into Tejas program and can be roped in as a consultant then there is no harm in doing that if that makes Tejas any better.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2016 11:13

It is becoming increasing clear that Tejas Mk1A is NOT going to meet the 2018 deadline. More likely by 2020.

Given this scenario, I would make sense for IAF to order 2 more Tejas Mk1 squadrons. The three Tejas Mk1 squadrons can cover the gap left by withdrawal of Mig-27 from service. The overall squadron number will have to looked at a bit more flexibly.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Dec 2016 13:25

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_ ... paf_396591

War of attrition: How the outgunned IAF beat the PAF
14 September 2015 RAKESH KRISHNAN SIMHA
Forced to fight with vintage warplanes and short on experience, the plucky Indian Air Force employed guts and gumption to send the Pakistan Air Force into defensive mode.

1965 War: Why India quit when it was winning
The MiG-21 became the first supersonic fighter jet to enter service with the IAF. Source: AP
The 1965 War was the first time the Indian Air Force (IAF) got a piece of combat action. The odds of winning, however, were totally against it. This was because under the premiership of Jawaharlal Nehru – a man completely lacking in empathy for India’s armed forces – the air force had been allowed to become a museum of vintage warplanes. Around a third of the air force comprised World War II era fighters, which were rendered useless.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), on the other hand, was on afterburners. This was because Pakistan had received a windfall in terms of military assistance for joining US-led pacts – the South East Asian Treaty Organisation and Central Treaty Organisation – aimed at containing Russia.

According to the Stockholm Peace Research Institute, between 1954 and 1964, Pakistan received $1.5 billion – an enormous amount in those years – in military assistance from the US. A lot of it comprised high-octane hardware. The Pakistan Army received 460 M-47 and M-48 tanks; the Navy received coastal minesweepers, two CH class destroyers, and a Tench-class submarine, a first of its acquisition by a South Asian country.

1965 War: Why India quit when it was winning
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) strength was increased significantly with the acquisition of 120 F-86 Sabres fighters between 1956 and 1958 and in 1962, the latest Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, which was equipped with the advanced Sidewinder air-to-air missile, another first in South Asia.

But more ominous was the Pakistani military’s integration with the West. Riaz Ahmed Shaikh writes in ‘Pakistani Military's Role in the Asian Context’, published in Advances in Military Sociology: “While continuing with the modernisation process, attention was also concentrated at the training and exercises of the troops. These were organised at regular intervals, and new experiments were made in techniques of warfare. On several occasions, exercises were supervised by the military experts of the US, UK and other western allies, including Iran and Turkey....These exercises enabled the Pakistan Navy and PAF to acquire the modern techniques of warfare and also increased their striking power, confidence and efficiency.”

Enter the Russians

It was the American refusal to assist India’s defence modernisation effort that led to substantive India-Russia military ties.

During the 1962 war with China, Nehru had requested 12 squadrons of all-weather fighters and two squadrons of B-47 bombers manned by American crews to attack positions in China, plus American help in constructing a radar shield for India’s cities.

But the Americans refused to supply India what it wanted, especially the F-104 jet which had already been sold to Pakistan. Satu Limaye writes in ‘US-India Relations’ that “the US refused to sell India any weaponry, offensive or otherwise, that was not directly applicable to mountain warfare”. This led India to suspect the US was trying to nudge its defence capabilities in the direction of a particular American strategic objective (the containment of China) while at the same time protecting Pakistani sensitivities.

After being spurned by the western powers, India turned to Russia. Moscow offered India full transfer of technology for the MiG-21 and rights for local assembly.

MiGs show potential

In 1964 – two full years after the PAF got the F-104 – the MiG-21 became the first supersonic fighter jet to enter service with the IAF. Because of India’s drawn out defence procurement policies – which haven’t changed to this day – the IAF was able to induct only a limited numbers of the jets. “The first six MiG-21s delivered to India were unimpressive, lacking modern fire control systems and demonstrating an extremely short combat radius,” writes Timothy D. Hoyt in 'Military Industry and Regional Defense Policy: India, Iraq and Israel'.

Along with the resultant lack of pilot training, India’s MiG-21s played a limited role in the 1965 war. But significantly, the first encounter in history between Mach 2 fighters took place on September 11, 1965. A single PAF F-104 encountered two IAF MiG-21s from Halwara in Punjab. The F-104 managed to escape by exiting the combat at tree-top height.

But MiG pilots didn’t spend the rest of the conflict twiddling thumbs. The IAF gained valuable experience while operating the MiG-21 for defensive sorties during the war. The positive feedback from IAF pilots during the war prompted India to place more orders for the fighter jet and also invest heavily in building the MiG-21’s maintenance infrastructure and pilot training programmes.

The Russians supplied the entire production facility for manufacturing MiG-21s. The engine plant was established in Koraput and the fuselage in Kanpur. By the 1971 war, India had acquired seven MiG squadrons comprising around 100 aircraft. The improved MiG-21 not only acted as an interceptor but also as an escort fighter for the Sukhoi Su-7, a heavily armoured and hardy Russian strike aircraft. The MiG-Sukhoi tandem punched big holes in Pakistani airspace, resulting in the country’s quick capitulation in the 1971 war.

Fog of war

The 1965 conflict was a war of attrition in which both sides made exaggerated claims, which is typical of all wars. However, unlike most nations who conduct a reality check once the fog of war drifts off, Pakistan continues to stick to its wild claims.

Pakistan says the PAF defeated the IAF. But Pakistani claims are based solely on the number of aircraft lost, which was clearly higher on the Indian side. But war is not just about aircraft destroyed. War is about achieving objectives and air power is one of the several elements of strategy that help a country achieve those objectives.

But the reality is Pakistan’s chief war objective – the capture of Kashmir – failed utterly and it lost the majority of its armour, including 250 American made tanks.

1971 War: How Russia sank Nixon’s gunboat diplomacy
In the air, Pakistan was on the verge of disaster when the cease-fire was called. B.C. Chakravorty writes in 'History of Indo-Pakistan War – 1965' that the IAF lost 61 aircraft versus 43 PAF planes destroyed. But Indian losses were overwhelmingly on the ground. Owing to the inexperience of its base commanders, the IAF lost 36 aircraft – including two of its latest MiG-21s – on the ground. “These aircraft were destroyed because they were not sufficiently dispersed and camouflaged,” writes Air-Vice Marshal Arun Kumar Tiwary in ‘Indian Air Force in Wars’. “Some of them had just landed back after operational sorties and were being refuelled.” (This has a parallel to the opening days of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 when hundreds of Russian aircraft were shot up by the Germans on the ground.)

On the other hand, in aerial dogfights, the IAF lost just 14 aircraft while shooting down 18 Pakistani jet fighters. According to former Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, Pakistan ended the war having depleted 17 per cent of its front line strength, while India's losses amounted to less than 10 per cent. Moreover, the loss rate had begun to even out, and it has been estimated that another three week's fighting would have seen the Pakistani losses rising to 33 per cent and India's losses totalling 15 per cent.

Retired PAF chief Noor Khan agrees the PAF adopted a defensive strategy because it could not counter the asymmetry with the IAF. At that time, India produced the Ajeet, aka Gnat, the most successful fighter of the war, while Pakistan was totally dependent on imports.

Former Air Marshal Govind Chandra Singh Rajwar who was a young officer posted in Kalaikunda, West Bengal, during the war says the PAF lacked the numbers or the will for a war of attrition. He recounts that on September 7, the Sabres made a surprise attack on his base, shooting up two IAF Camberra bombers on the ground. Because the Sabres had missed a large number of aircraft, the IAF correctly guessed they would be back.

Greed clearly won over better judgement and the Sabres returned 30 minutes later, after refuelling. But this time the Indians were airborne and shot down several Sabres. “This second attack was such a disaster for the PAF Sabres they never ventured to attack Kalaikunda again for the remainder of the 1965 war,” says Rajwar.

To be sure, the IAF wasn’t exactly doing great in offensive mode. Says Tiwary: “On the Indian side MiG-21s had recently been inducted and were not yet night capable for interception. Night flying of Gnat aircraft was limited due to poor cockpit lighting. The night fighter Vampires were already obsolete.”

Former Indian Army chief K.V. Krishna Rao writes in ‘Prepare or Perish: A Study of National Security’ that poor intelligence led to Indian warplanes attacking 16 Pakistani air bases that did not have any PAF aircraft.

Western bias

“Pakistan Victorious” screamed the headline in The Australian, dated September 14, 1965, followed by this intro: “Pakistani forces have repulsed a massive Indian armoured assault in the greatest tank battle since the African desert campaign of World War II.”

The Australians media were, at worse, liars or, at best, parroting a lie. In fact, everything about the report was false. Firstly, the greatest tank battle since World War II was the Battle of Asal Uttar where the Indian Army destroyed Pakistani 70 tanks. India also captured 25 tanks which were abandoned by panic stricken Pakistani soldiers in the face of withering Indian fire.

Secondly, the greatest tank battle of World War II was not in Africa, but in Kursk, Russia, where the Red Army hammered the Germans. This is an instance of the Anglo-American media not wanting to acknowledge Russian military superiority.

The point is that in the West there is a great desire to see Indians – and Russians – fail. It was like that during the Cold War when Pakistan was a loyal ally and India a hated ally of Moscow. Nothing's changed.

Lying to fame in 30 seconds

One of the biggest lies peddled by the PAF was the “30 seconds over Sargodha” incident. Mohammed Alam, a PAF squadron leader, claimed he had shot down as many as five IAF Hunter aircraft in only 23 seconds on September 7.

British writer John Fricker was commissioned by the PAF to write a book, in which Fricker eulogised the Pakistanis. His ‘Battle for Pakistan – The Air War of 1965’ made it to the stores only in 1979 because he couldn’t find a publisher. But because he couldn’t narrate his tales soon enough, Fricker wrote an article titled “30 Seconds Over Sargodha” which was published in ‘Aeroplane’ magazine.

Fricker’s article popularised Alam’s claim in the West, where they gleefully accepted such fiction as truth. There was a huge sense of satisfaction in the West at India’s apparent failure.

However, highly credible research done by military historian Pushpinder Singh and others has shown that Alam was exaggerating. In an article titled ‘Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest’ Singh writes why the PAF backed Alam’s claims: “The people of Pakistan had to be re-assured their air force's super image carefully cultivated over the years, was restored by examples of daring-do and glory.”

Not all Pakistanis, however, are delusional. PAF Air Commodore S. Sajad Haider has demolished Alam’s claims in his exhaustive book ‘Flight of the Falcon: Demolishing Myths of the 1965 War’. Referring to Alam as a "very unprofessional" pilot, Haider says: “It is tactically and mathematically very difficult to resurrect the incident in which all five Hunters in a hard turn were claimed to have been shot down in a 270-degree turn in 23 seconds.”

Alam had said he had blown away all five aircraft and that none of the pilots were able to eject. On this Haider adds: “Logically, since the five were claimed to have been shot down in 23 seconds, then they should all have crashed in close proximity. The conjecture that all the rest could have crashed after 8-9 minutes of flying is superfluous and unworthy of the official PAF history.”

Even the PAF is having trouble swallowing such a blatant lie. According to Bharat Rakshak, “While the PAF’s 1982 history accepts Alam’s story as told by Fricker, the PAF’s 1988 history is surprisingly silent about the names. In fact, the PAF 1988 history does not even list the names of the five IAF pilots.”

This is not to say the Pakistanis were chumps. On the contrary, they were excellent flyers and gunners. However, PAF pilots seemed to have underestimated Indian resolve, and also believed their President Ayub Khan’s claim that one Pakistani was equal to three Indians.

Religious fanaticism was also seen rearing its ugly head in the PAF, with many pilots believing they were under divine protection. Alam, for instance, became an Islamic fundamentalist and berated his fellow officers and seniors who consumed alcohol. Not surprisingly, he was sidelined on the amusing allegation that he could not read or write. Post retirement, he lives like a mullah, a virtual recluse. Had he been a real war hero, he would not be treated in so humiliating a manner.

Prelude to 1971

The lessons of the 1965 war led India to refine tactics which proved decisive in the 1971 war. The IAF had been hamstrung by the lack of ground based defensive radar coverage and air-to-air missiles. These deficiencies were addressed.

With Russian aid, India established a modern early warning radar system, including the Fansong low-level radar, linked with SA-2 'Guideline' surface-to-air missiles and a large number of AA guns.

For the technologically outclassed IAF, the 1965 war was a bruising rite of passage. Indians showed that in war, morale matters more than material. IAF pilots had truly internalised what Sergei Dolgushin – a Russian World War II ace with 24 victories – said is a prerequisite to be a successful fighter pilot: “A love of hunting, a great desire to be the top dog.”

When war came again, in December 1971, a better trained IAF – armed with the MiG-21s and Su-7s – was ready for the kill.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Dec 2016 05:36

This is new. Courtesy: Writetake/Tarmak007

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Dec 2016 05:45

Indranil wrote:This is new. Courtesy: Writetake/Tarmak007

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzdVe2XUcAETfao.jpg

Fuselage behind canopy looks different. Also thingies attached to wingtips

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Dec 2016 07:09

China Inducts First Stealth Fighter Into Air Force, India Still To Build One
http://m.ndtv.com/world-news/as-india-s ... er-1637768

By Vishnu Som

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2016 08:15

Good article Philip.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Dec 2016 21:14

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:This is new. Courtesy: Writetake/Tarmak007

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzdVe2XUcAETfao.jpg
Fuselage behind canopy looks different. Also thingies attached to wingtips

I can't see any changes hakeem. I don't like the canopy

. It won't affect the performance, but aesthetically it is not that pleasing.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Dec 2016 00:47

Changes? It's still the first prototype TSR001. They changed portions of the first prototype itself?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Dec 2016 01:38

Indranil: I sent you PM. Please check.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2016 19:13

Cybaru wrote:Changes? It's still the first prototype TSR001. They changed portions of the first prototype itself?

~~To be honest I need to check the original images~~

Sorry. My bad. It looks the same. I was wrong

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 Dec 2016 02:49

shiv wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Changes? It's still the first prototype TSR001. They changed portions of the first prototype itself?
~~To be honest I need to check the original images~~

Sorry. My bad. It looks the same. I was wrong

No worries, I could have been wrong too and I was just asking open ended questions.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Dec 2016 03:31

Found this pic of a TACDE patch on the BR mainsite.

Interesting thing is the date of that upload.

- The IAF trials for the AH-64 & Mi-28 took place in Jul-Aug 2010.
- The selection of the AH-64 was announced in Oct 2011.
- The actual contract was signed in Sep 2015.
- The first one will be delivered in 2019.

Curious huh?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Dec 2016 10:09

^^^What is curious about the patch?