Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 13 Dec 2016 00:23

From the above Captain's blog...a must read.


On a particularly sad day when the Indian Army lost seven brave soldiers to a cowardly terrorist attack on the army camp at Nagrota, I opened my Facebook account late evening to check the newsfeed. Some stunning contradictions stared me in the face. The left side of my Facebook page bore a small requiem from a civilian friend about the dastardly attack and how all this is so utterly deplorable. It had garnered about 66 ‘likes’ in about 12 hours, a modest total by my standards. The right half of my FB newsfeed that contains ‘trending’ items and sponsored links showed me that the most trending thing at that time was ‘Yuvraj Singh & Hazel Keech’s wedding’ – 18,000 people were talking about it. 23,000 people were talking about a Delhi High Court decree that a son has no legal right to property owned by his parents. 57,000 people were also talking about actor Aamir Khan’s dramatic body transformation for the Bollywood movie ‘Dangal’. As a stark contrast to all this, the terrorist attack on Nagrota was trending with 17,000 people talking about it – lowest among the four items trending at 2000h on 30 Nov 16.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Austin » 13 Dec 2016 09:26 ... 2951173120

Superb shot of the sub-chaser INS Kadmatt as she races to Chennai. #cyclonevardah


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 13 Dec 2016 09:30

Nice pic but that's Shivalik class.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 13 Dec 2016 11:20 ... t-lie.html
INS Betwa’s tumble: Where does the fault lie?
Published Dec 13, 2016, 1:45 am ISTUpdated Dec 13, 2016, 6:55 am IST
INS Betwa is a product of GRSE Kolkata and not that of Mazagon Dock.

INS Betwa, the 3850-tonne ship, having a length of 126 metres, tipped over while it was being undocked. (Photo: PTI)
It took almost 11 years for India’s Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers to build the Brahmaputra-class (Project 16A) full-load (displacement 4,521-tonne) frigate INS Betwa, which was commissioned into the Indian Navy on July 7, 2004. Thereafter, it took more than 12 years for the same ship to tumble (or “tilt-sink”) in a Mumbai dry dock, killing and wounding sailors. Nothing perhaps could be more demoralising for naval personnel. I was witness to the commissioning of INS Betwa with fanfare at GRSE, Kolkata. But it is time for course-correction, rather than bickering past follies, failures and mistakes. The Indian Navy belongs to the nation and not to a handful of people. Indians have every right to analyse and give suggestions. Let us first understand the genealogy of the “fallen” frigate INS Betwa. India’s first indigenous 2,952-tonne (British Leander class) frigate Nilgiri in late 1960s was succeeded by modified design thereof (4,277 tonne) three Godavari-class frigates with 72 per cent indigenous content.

All three Godavari-class frigates, commissioned between 1983 and 1988, were products of Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai. And INS Betwa, being the successor of the Godavari-class, was one of the three Brahmaputra-class frigates with 86 per cent indigenous component. Thus, its boilers and turbines are from Bhopal, radars made by Bharat Electronics and fire control systems, sonars, combat data system are also of Indian origin. Nevertheless, all three frigates witnessed time and cost overruns before being commissioned which, in turn, did affect the desired level of operational preparedness. The delay was also a result of post-USSR collapse, resulting in chaos in the combat ship-building enterprise of India. One referred to INS Betwa’s genealogy to appreciate how difficult and painstaking India’s naval asset indigenisation has been. Further, one needs to appreciate that no country, however friendly it may appear to be, is unlikely to give the latest and the best of naval technology to a developing naval state like India, notwithstanding the sole exception of former USSR’s sustained contribution to the development of the Indian fleet in the past.

Today, no (Western) developed nation is likely to replicate the Indo-Soviet naval cooperation from 1960s to 1990s. The reason being the indigenisation of the Indian Navy is a direct challenge to the established naval technology of the Western world order, thereby resulting in potential loss of employment, economics and engineering edge for the export market. Hence, any help or assistance therefrom can never be either selfless or unconditional. That is understandable. On their part, it has to enter into the Indian machine, market, military and money. In the memorable words of US President Barack Obama, “to pry open the Indian market”. Now let us come back to the plight of INS Betwa in the Mumbai dry dock. The sinking of INS Betwa is serious as it occurred in a dry dock. Fighting ships sinking in the sea or getting damaged in choppy waters or taking torpedoes and missiles in war are understandable. But sinking in a dry dock during refit and refurbishing is not acceptable.

Brave words like “INS Betwa will be salvaged as per original deadline of 2018” are music to the ears, but before that there is lot to put things into the right perspective. It has to be remembered that INS Betwa is a product of GRSE Kolkata and not that of Mazagon Dock. Hence, doing normal refurbishing a 3,850-tonne frigate in normal times would be entirely different from complete “redoing” a badly mauled machine in an unprecedented mishap with major damage to its vital electronics and other sophisticated machinery. It may also emerge as equivalent to a virtual new construction — the economics of which may not be commensurate with its restoration cost. Hence, to make highly optimistic statement pertaining to the damaged ship’s restoration and redeployment by 2018 is good for morale but a bit premature before getting detailed reports from/of the competent authority on the damaged boat.

Also, the Brahmaputra-class frigate is no longer in production, as Beas, the last of the class, was commissioned way back in July 11, 2005. In fact, GRSE Kolkata no longer produces any deep seagoing frigate on date as gleaned from Jane’s Fighting Ships 2016-2017. It is now producing only displacement tonne 3,150 full load Kamorta-class multipurpose corvettes, designed to operate in Indian offshore waters. Thus, things certainly do not look as simple as it is being projected. Bringing foreign experts and professionals and equipment (as Mazagon Dock reportedly does not have the suitable wherewithal to put in place the tilted 3,850 tonne frigate) are all going to cost a fortune to the state exchequer.

Also, Mazagon Dock is now into bigger league. After having completed the Godavari-class frigate in 1988, it has gone heavier and higher, first having manufactured the 6,808-tonne full load displacement destroyer INS Delhi in November 1997. Although INS Delhi took 10 years to be commissioned, the subsequent 7,292-tonne full load displacement destroyers INS Kolkata, INS Kochi and INS Chennai, too, took between 10 and 11 years to be operational. And that is an unacceptable time and cost overrun if India wants to be in league with the Chinese Navy. In this scenario, it would be interesting to see and challenging to undertake the fate and future of INS Betwa in light of recent experience of Mazagon Dock’s manufacturing of three 6,299-tonne full load displacement Shivalik-class frigates. Each of the three boats took a minimum of eight years and nine months.

One simply wishes to point out the facts with a sense of urgency. When new ships are taking long to commission, one wonders as to how much time, effort and money will be required to first make a tilted ship stand on its feet, repair, refit, refurbish and put her back to the sea? Lastly, I wonder why so many recent mishaps are occurring in the Indian fleet? What has gone wrong? Are these really accidents? Or, is there something more than which meets the eye? Is someone compromising India’s national security from within?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby parikh » 13 Dec 2016 14:10

from an ex merchant navy captains blog

IMPORTANT....... IMPORTANT...... IMPORTANT.......... THE WARSHIP INS BETWA , CAPSIZED WHILE UNDOCKING FROM DRYDOCK , DUE TO STABILITY CALCULATIONS NOT BEING DONE PROPERLY ..................... I AM A SHIP CAPTAIN WITH 30 YEARS EXPERIENCE ............. VIRTUAL LOSS OF GM DUE TO UPTHRUST .................... To calculate virtual loss of GM :-............. P= t X MCTC/ LCF ( t is trim in cms )....... virtual loss of GM= PX KM/W ( where W is displacement in tonnes )............. Not many people realise that KM reduces with increase of trim................this is the reason why docking/ undocking trim by stern must be as small as possible……….. while undocking the most critical and dangerous period is when the ship is afloat with only the aftermost part of keel resting on the aftermost block ………… …………..<deleted>........... The interval of time between the stern post landing on the blocks and the ship taking the blocks overall is referred to as the critical period....... During this period part of the weight of the ship is being borne by the blocks, and this creates an upthrust at the stern which increases as the water level falls in the drydock. ......The upthrust causes a virtual loss in metacentric height and it is essential that positive effective metacentric height be maintained throughout the critical period, or the ship will heel over and perhaps slip off the blocks with disastrous results. ....capt ajit vadakayil ..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tsarkar » 13 Dec 2016 16:44

In July 2016 ... lid=147390
The Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs, chaired by the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi, has given its approval for construction of a new dry dock within the existing premises of Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) at an estimated cost of Rs.1799 crore to augment the shipbuilding / repair capacity of the country.

The objective is to augment the shipbuilding/ ship repair capacity essentially required to tap the market potential of building specialized and technologically advanced large vessels such as Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) vessels, Indigenous Aircraft Carriers of higher capacity, Jack up Rigs, Drill ships, large Dredgers and repairing of offshore platforms and larger vessels. This big sized dry dock is a critical requirement of CSL to promote ship building and is a step in the direction of "Make in India" initiative of the Government.

There would be no financial outgo from the Government on account of the construction of new dry dock as the expenditure of Rs.1799 crore will be funded through Internal and Extra Budgetary resources (IEBR) of CSL and the funding requirements are fully tied up.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 14 Dec 2016 02:02

Philip, That Deccan Chronicle article is a sophisticated rant. It adds no significant value expect that refurbishing the Betwa will cost a lot as it is no longer made and was once made elsewhere.

I guess columnists are paid by the word.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2016 10:35

It highlights two factors.One the absence of a salvage capability in the country/IN and two,the very slow rate of building ships and subs in our DPSU yards. This has led to massive cost overruns. When you add the IN's indecision at times in choice of weaponry and sensors,changes made during construction, one can only conclude that project management is a v.dirty word in the desi shipbuilding industry.Betwa's catastrophe is inexcusable for the IN,coming at the end of a long list of naval misadventures in the recent past decade. There is something rotten in the state of affairs in the IN and retd. senior admirals have pointed out the lapses which need to be set right. Unless drastic action is done,we will just have to keep fingers crossed and hope that the next one doesn't happen in a hurry.

On the anniversary of the Paki surrender in '71,is is pertinent to point out that we'e lost far more naval assets in peacetime than we did during wartime.

Egypt has obtained German U-boats. The costs of the same would give us a clue in case we went ahead with the G-to-G sub deal/offer for German U-boats. Though these subs are slightly smaller than our 209-1500 boats,the cost/capability in comparison with the Scorpenes being built at home is worth examining. ... submarine/
Egypt receives first German-built submarine
December 12, 2016

The Egyptian Navy today officially received its first Type-209/1400 submarine from Germany, government sources revealed.

The Egyptian Armed Forces spokesperson said today that the submarine, named S41, was manufactured by the ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems Company in the northern German coastal city of Kiel.

During a ceremony in Kiel city yesterday, the Commander of the Egyptian Navy Lieutenant General Osama Mounir hoisted the Egyptian flag on the the contract for the first two ships was worth around €900 million, while the other two submarines’ contract is estimated at well over €500 million.
submarine signalling its beginning of service at the Egyptian military forces.

In his speech at the inauguration, Mounir stated that the new submarine is a “great technological addition” to Egypt’s navy and will further its capability to bolster Egyptian national security.

Egypt Independent reported that this event comes within a deal made between the two nations for four submarines to help protect the Egyptian national security and its economic interests. Egypt initially ordered two Type-209/1400mod submarines in 2011 and later ordered two more in 2014.

According to the Germany’s Deutsche-Presse Agentur (DPA) news agency,
The diesel-electric Type 209 submarine is 211 feet long, has a submerged speed of 22.5 knots and a submerged range of 400 nautical miles at a speed of 4 knots. The 64-meters long submarine is capable of firing missiles against both land and naval targets.

The second HDW 209/1400 submarine was also officially handed over to the Egyptian navy.
Egyptian technical teams travelled to Germany earlier for training on operating the new submarines.

In a statement, German Ambassador to Egypt Julius Georg Luy said that both Berlin and Cairo have common interests in confronting issues of regional stability and terrorism.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2016 11:05

The latest mishap is being used as a case for enhanced ties with the US! The Western navies have been for some time envious of the IN's steady modernisation drive with desi designed warships and subs using tech from east and west as well as desi developed. The IN has been the most successful of the 3 services in indigenisation,though delays and cost overruns in shipbuilding has been a worrying factor.While surface vessels are coming along at a relatively steady pace,sub construction has lagged behind.The IN would prefer to design its own assets itself and induct what tech it requires from abroad wherever it can get it best. The US's intention however is weighed heavily ion its own interests.It wants IN warships to possess US CW systems ,weaponry,etc.,so that our assets can be automatically integrated into the USN's NCW grid.Secondly,to act as a US surrogate in any spat with China.IN acquisitions primarily from Russia,then Israel,France and some EU nations,comes without strings attached. Getting further into a US embrace would dangerously undermine our independence and sovereignty and run th risk of denial of top line Ru milware,which is what is giving us the qualitative advantage over our traditional enemies.

India’s Navy Blues
Deadly mishaps underscore the need for faster modernization and expanded U.S. ties.

The commissioning ceremony for the INS Chennai, a Kolkata-class stealth guided-missile destroyer, in Mumbai on Nov. 21. ENLARGE

Dec. 12, 2016
Shipyard accidents happen, so perhaps it’s wrong to make too much of last week’s unprecedented toppling in a Mumbai dockyard of the guided-missile frigate INS Betwa, which killed two sailors and could leave one of India’s warships unsalvageable. But given the frequency with which the Indian navy is experiencing similar mishaps, the incident is a reminder that New Delhi has far to go if it’s to project credible power across the Indo-Pacific.

Among the previous accidents was a 2013 explosion in the torpedo compartment of a submarine docked in Mumbai, which killed 18 sailors and sank the ship. A fire on another submarine months later killed two officers and led to the resignation of India’s top navy commander. The Betwa ran aground in 2014 as she was entering the Mumbai naval base.

India is also having a hard time building its own aircraft carriers that would curb its reliance on Russian models and employ technologies developed jointly with the U.S. As the Journal reported last month, U.S. engineers who visited the INS Vikrant carrier under construction in the port of Kochi in February found it years behind schedule, with “no small missile system to defend itself, a limited ability to launch sorties and no defined strategy for how to use the ship in combat.”

An Indian government audit in July scored the Kochi shipyard for having “no previous experience of warship construction.” It also found faults in the Vikrant’s jet-launch systems and gear boxes and assessed that the ship won’t be operational by the 2018 date promised by India’s military.

U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter established several special offices to expand joint exercises, arms sales, technology sharing and other efforts with New Delhi, and the U.S. Congress this month affirmed the Obama Administration’s designation of India as a “major defense partner.” India has been especially keen on U.S. ties since Narendra Modi became Prime Minister in 2014.

But many officials in New Delhi still don’t trust Washington because of pro-Moscow views dating to the Cold War and suspicion of the U.S. relationship with Pakistan. This helps explain why, even after more than a decade of talks, India won’t sign two of the three “foundational” agreements that the U.S. uses to facilitate defense data-sharing and communication with some 80 countries.

Far more is needed to modernize India’s navy, but here’s hoping the Trump Administration continues the work of its predecessors in deepening America’s economic and military ties with India. Concluding the remaining foundational agreements would be a powerful sign from New Delhi that it intends to remain a willing partner.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2016 12:33

DCNS is proposing a modified Scorpene design for the Norwegian requirement. THis could be of interest to the IN in case despite the Scorpene's data expose,there is a feeling to build a couple more. ... FI-49J96M8

Meanwhile SoKo has embarked upon a 3000t sub which can carry 500km ballistic missiles as a counter to the BM challenge from NoKo.
This would be a moodified version of their German U-boats. ... struction/

Latest Indo-Ruyssia naval exercises. ... 648_1.html

Indo Russian Bilateral Naval Exercise ( Indra Navy 2016)

The 9th edition of exercise INDRA NAVY, an annual bilateral maritime exercise between Indian Navy and Russian Navy will be conducted in the Bay of Bengal from 14 to 21 December 2016. The primary aim of exercise INDRA NAVY-16 is to increase inter-operability amongst the two navies and develop common understanding and procedures for maritime security operations. The scope of the exercise includes wide-ranging professional interactions in harbor phase and a diverse canvas of operational activities across a spectrum of maritime operations at sea. INDRA NAVY is a bilateral maritime exercise between the Indian and Russian navies and epitomizes the strategic relationship between the two countries. Initiated in 2003, the exercise has matured over the years with increase in scope, complexity of operations and level of participation.

During exercise INDRA NAVY-16, the Indian Navy will be represented by INS Ranvir a guided missile destroyer, INS Satpura an indigenous frigate and INS Kamorta an indigenous Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) corvette. In addition, an IN submarine, P8I Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Dornier Short Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer and other integral rotary wing helicopters are scheduled to participate in the bilateral exercise.

The Russian Federation Navy (RuFN) will be represented by Rear Admiral Eduard Mikhalov, Deputi Chief of Flotilla, Pacific Fleet and ships from the Pacific Fleet, based at Vladivostok. RuFN ships Admiral Tributus (cruiser) and Boris Butoma (fleet tanker) are expected to arrive at Visakhapatnam on 14 December 2016 to participate in exercise INDRA NAVY-16.

The exercise will be progressed in two phases viz. the Harbour Phase (14 to 18 December 2016) at Visakhapatnam and the Sea Phase (19 to 21 December 2016) off Visakhapatnam. The Harbour Phase would encompass table-top exercises, planning conferences, and professional interactions prior progressing to sea. The thrust of exercises at sea this year would be on ASW, Air Defence Drills, Surface Firings, visit Board Search ans Seizure (VBSS) and Tactical procedures.

Exercise INDRA NAVY-16 will help to further strengthen mutual confidence and inter-operability, and also enable sharing of best practices between both navies. The exercise will be another milestone in strengthening maritime security cooperation between the two navies and will also serve to reinforce the long standing bond of friendship between the two countries. ... china-sub/
Indian Navy Increases Vigil as China Deploys Nuclear Submarine in Pak Waters

ASIA & PACIFIC 17:01 02.12.2016
China’s naval wooing of India’s neighbors has compelled the Indian Navy to step up vigilance of its maritime domain. As of now the Indian Navy is sanguine about monitoring Chinese naval activity on both its oceanic flanks. New Delhi (Sputnik) — The Indian Navy has geared up for heightened Chinese activity in the oceans around its territorial waters. "We have the capability and assets to take on any force which is deployed, and if and when this happens, we have plans in place to tackle it. PLA nuclear submarine was deployed and did a port call at Karachi. As far as deployment of PLA navy, ships and submarines are concerned, we keep a close eye and monitor their movement," says Indian Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba.

This is for the first time a senior Indian defense official has mentioned activity by a Chinese submarine near its western coast. Indian Navy'’s revelation about Chinese submarine deployment in Pakistani territory comes in the backdrop of recent announcement by Bangladesh Navy that would take delivery of two old refurbished Chinese Type 035G Ming-class diesel-electric submarines by March 2017. It will further increase Chinese naval activity in the Bay of Bengal. "The long-term submarine training and maintenance needs of Bangladesh Navy would enable China’s military presence in the Bay of Bengal, and enable it to collate sensitive data for PLA Navy’s submarine operations in the future," says Captain Gurmeet S Khurana, Executive Director at National Maritime Foundation. The Pakistani government claims that China proposes to deploy its naval assets in Pakistani maritime boundary to safeguard Gwadar port, which is the gateway to the USD 46 billion China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

Read more: ... china-sub/

We again missed the boat with BDesh.We could've offered to help them with their sub programme as we're doing with the Vietnamese.The Chinese now have us encircl;ed at 3 points on the map,Hambantota in SL,Gwadar in Pak and now have obtained squatting rights in Bdesh too.20 yrs ago when I arned about the PLAN's IOR ambitions I was laughed at. It has all come to pass faster than anticipated.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Indranil » 15 Dec 2016 22:15

Time for new thread.

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