Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 10 Dec 2016 03:28

I think that a HSR that will work in India is the one like on an elevated Metro like pylons far above the hustle and bustle of typical indian village/city harmonious setting with animals, pets, etc. Such a HSR that travels from Delhi To Mumbai (100% on elevated pylons)., Delhi to Chennai, Delhi to Kolkatta, Delhi to Hyderabad/Banglore will work.

disha · Post by **disha** » 10 Dec 2016 05:04

^^ You could have typed in "HSR India Corporation" in google/yahoo/bing and would have got this link: http://hsrc.in

Then in the Projects->Mumbai/Ahmedabad corridor section you will find this blurb

"Rail Vikas Nigam limited/High Speed Rail Corporation of India limited have been assigned the implementation of High speed rail projects. Mumbai-Ahmedabad is the first corridor which has been undertaken for implementation. "

So HSRC India Limited will be implementing the project with RVN Ltd.

What is Rail Vikas Nigam Limited? http://rvnl.org

Now., please go through both the sarkari websites and prove it to me that both the limited companies are backed by Indian Sovereign Bonds*

If you want to research more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai–Ah ... l_corridor

While you are at it., can you also update the wiki entries appropriately? It is stuck at NHSR when it should be called out as HSR.

*PS: I also want to start a company backed by Indian Sovereign Bonds!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Dec 2016 05:22

nukavarapu wrote:
Suraj wrote: Does that imply you have found and can post information that says the contrary, i.e. that it is sovereign debt ? Or that you just don't know ?
I have requested the member clearly if he can point me to a link so I can research more? You seem to find a problem with everything I type.

I just requested the same of you

Do you have any reference to show that NHSRC's debts would constitute sovereign debt, since you did make that assertion ?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Dec 2016 07:19

disha wrote:You do have to chew on the fact that IR moves @4 Billion persons a year or >10 Americas a year. Only a professional organization can do that YoY.

Saar, it's a bit more than that, just 3 billion more

. Basically, 4B is only the suburban traffic per year. Non-suburban is another 3.7B, totaling 8.2B a year (almost 23 million a day), apart from goods traffic (source: IR statistics 2014-15, again). I had already posted these numbers earlier in this thread, but looking at them and appreciating the sheer scale at which they operate will put paid to the "India cannot put 2 and 2 together" type posts that keep emanating from certain posters. What to do onlee.

disha wrote:Take this example., motorman of the mumbai suburban is a highly paid and highly trained individual. They get @80k/@1lakh per month as salary incl. various allowances and they are in training for a number of years before they are given an independent charge.

12 years, give or take.

Low standards, indeed.

disha · Post by **disha** » 10 Dec 2016 09:20

Arshyam'ji - indeed the sheer scale is immense. This is something to be appreciated and it works. Day in-Day out and Year-over-year and through major weather event on the world (monsoon is the single largest weather event on this earth).

Hence I am of the opinion that any poster who raises - "India cannot put 2 and 2 together and India is not ready for this or that" should be summarily banned for 3 days. Harsh., but then there is no other option but to be a strong teacher. I mean a 3-day ban for a poster who cannot accept the fact that IR is immense and still works efficiently is nothing compared to the motorman who puts in 12 years of training to get an independent charge! Low standards indeed.

*Note I was calculating only the long distance non-suburban passenger transit numbers (of course rounded off to the nearest billion). I discounted the suburban transit and of course the goods transit.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 10 Dec 2016 13:13

disha wrote:You have not made the precise statement "HSR is a tax burden on Indians"., but you did make the statement that "ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket". Please tell us how your statement is any way different or means different?

Now, we're talking. I stand by the bolded part. Please see the following explanation:
Japan will fund 81 % of HSRC through JICA as a soft loan. It has to be paid back after a moratorium of 15 years, with 0.1 % interest over a duration of 50 years. I had previously stated a moratorium of 10 years, and stand corrected on that part.

Now, as an exercise, let us consider the case of BMRCL which is a joint venture of GOI and GOK, and runs the Bangalore metro. According to wiki, annual revenue of BMRCL, was INR 28.28 crores for fiscal year 2015-2016. Lets make it INR 40 crores for this fiscal. Even if you assume 5 % operational profit, after deducting all OpEx, it comes to INR 2 crores/year. This for a daily ridership of nearly 2 lakhs currently. For phase 1 of Namma metro, BMRCL borrowed INR 6500 crores from JICA and other sources. How do you expect the operational profit of just INR 2 crores/year to cover this loan in any reasonable time? Clearly, even though it is not stated explicitly in the website of BMRCL, the loan is sovereign debt of GOI/GOK.

Coming back to HSR, the MUM-AHD link is expected to cost over INR 100,000 crores (wiki), with an estimated ticket price of INR 2000 one way. Even if you assume a ridership of 100,000/day (nearly 10% of your 1.1 crore figure) between the two cities, the operational profit (at 5%, too high) comes out to be INR 365 crores/year. Make it 500 crores/year to include profits from business. You cannot pay back the loan with this profit in 50 years with 0.1% interest right? Furthermore, the HSRC website clearly says it is a GOI enterprise through RVNL. So it is logical to assume that HSR is GOI backed through sovereign debt.

HSR is not going to be safe.

If you read the wiki link of Shinkansen it says:

Over the Shinkansen's 50-plus year history, carrying over 10 billion passengers, there have been no passenger fatalities due to derailments or collisions,[18] despite frequent earthquakes and typhoons.

We have to attempt to match this safety record with our existing IR infrastructure. If we can do this, then even I support HSR unconditionally, despite its huge costs.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 10 Dec 2016 19:53

Our fatalilty rate if expressed per billion passengers is not too bad. Given the sheer scale, the absolute number is horrifying. We need to invest heavily in upgrading railway infrastructure

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 10 Dec 2016 22:26

The only way to make that happen is to increase passenger fares. We cannot increase goods fares as it is already the most expensive way to move goods right now. Passenger fares have to go up.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 11 Dec 2016 04:02

prashanth wrote:
disha wrote:You have not made the precise statement "HSR is a tax burden on Indians"., but you did make the statement that "ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket". Please tell us how your statement is any way different or means different?
Now, we're talking. I stand by the bolded part. Please see the following explanation:
Japan will fund 81 % of HSRC through JICA as a soft loan. It has to be paid back after a moratorium of 15 years, with 0.1 % interest over a duration of 50 years. I had previously stated a moratorium of 10 years, and stand corrected on that part.

The agreement is not structured between GoI and JICA . Rather it's between IR and JICA , through the special purpose vehicle the National HSR Corporation, a separate limited liability company set up under the Companies Act.

The NHSRC is tasked with implementing the Mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR . It has IR and JICA as its investors in a 19:81 ratio . GoI has no sovereign guarantee upon this . Rather they stand to risk their 19% stake through IR . The terms are 50 year loan, 0.1% with a 15 year moratorium . This is probably the most sweetheart loan term ever offered on an infrastructure project .

What happens if the repayments don't keep up ? NHSRC goes into receivership and it's debt is restructured and purchased by someone who intends to run the services after the restructure. The investors - IR and JICA , take a loss on their original investment in return for restructured terms. This is all standard debt restructuring process .

As for traffic projections please make it a point to read the first several pages of this thread . There was a very detailed discussion with quantitative calculations . There's no point in restating it all.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 11 Dec 2016 04:17

Aadhaar card to become mandatory for railway concessions

http://www.businesstoday.in/current/eco ... 41784.html

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 11 Dec 2016 10:34

would thermal cameras be of use to train drivers during foggy days?

disha · Post by **disha** » 11 Dec 2016 23:46

Exhibit 1:

prashanth wrote:I would restate this as : India is not ready for HSR yet.

Exhibit 2:

prashanth wrote:We have to attempt to match this safety record with our existing IR infrastructure. If we can do this, then even I support HSR unconditionally, despite its huge costs.

Between the two exhibits., it reminds me of this doggerel:

We must and will continue to milk the bull until we are assured that the cow gives quality milk., till then no cow

I have nothing much to say., I again recommend people to start from Page 1 and read all posts on HSR before raising further questions.

disha · Post by **disha** » 11 Dec 2016 23:48

manjgu wrote:would thermal cameras be of use to train drivers during foggy days?

It is multiple things they see including signals and other things which only a driver trained for 13 years is trained to see and unless the entire window can operate in thermal or blind conditions., the thermal cameras can only go so far. Yes., research can be done but it will take decades before it gets operationalized.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Dec 2016 23:51

manjgu wrote:would thermal cameras be of use to train drivers during foggy days?

In which situation these cameras will be useful?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 12 Dec 2016 14:31

Manish_P wrote:Shakuntala Railways: India's only private railway line

^^^^^
Not this stuff again. Please see my reply on page 22 of this very thread and also vsunder's post which is right below mine.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 12 Dec 2016 20:41

http://swarajyamag.com/insta/high-speed ... -next-year

The travel time from Mumbai to New Delhi might reduce by four hours as early as next year, reported the Economic Times, if the Indian Railways is able to continue with its plans to lease two trains from Spanish train manufacturer Talgo. The trains, during the several months of testing, have managed to complete the 1,384km long journey in 12 hours with the existing infrastructure. The Rajdhani Express takes 16 hours.

Talgo chief executive José María Oriol, who was in India recently, confirmed that there had been talks to lease out two rakes to the Indian Railways. He further added that Talgo was ready to manufacture in India if it got a contract. Officials from the government hinted at a three-year lease for two rakes.

However, the proposal would require the approval of NITI Aayog’s Innovation Committee to proceed and, once approved, would require a green light from the Commissioner of Railway Safety (CRS) to ply on the tracks.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 13 Dec 2016 14:12

Ooops

ArmenT wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Shakuntala Railways: India's only private railway line
^^^^^
Not this stuff again. Please see my reply on page 22 of this very thread and also vsunder's post which is right below mine.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 13 Dec 2016 20:33

From Twitter.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 13 Dec 2016 20:44

Need to switch to electric loco as much as possible. It's far more energy efficient.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 15 Dec 2016 00:20

Karthik S, how can one do that replacement in places without electrification? There are vast swathes where electrification has not happened, due to prioritization.

btw, that above table of locomotive "in operation" of each zone. reminds one of this Drone article:

Code: Select all

http://www.dawn.com/news/1201004

To help move a nation of 180 million, Pakistan Railways has fewer than 500 locomotives of which only 20 per cent are operational. The rest are either too old or too damaged to operate.

That is a sum total of 100 locomotives that are "in operation" to haul TFTAs. Or 1/12 th the size of South-Central, the biggest from the chart

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Dec 2016 01:24

Karthik S wrote:Need to switch to electric loco as much as possible. It's far more energy efficient.

No. In the event of a conflict with China or Pak we could lose power lines and part of the railway electric grid. Better to run more on diesel locos and still have the capacity to move cargo, troops, and evacuate people if need be.

Take a look at Northwestern Railways. All diesel no electric for good reason.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 15 Dec 2016 01:42

disha wrote:
manjgu wrote:would thermal cameras be of use to train drivers during foggy days?
It is multiple things they see including signals and other things which only a driver trained for 13 years is trained to see and unless the entire window can operate in thermal or blind conditions., the thermal cameras can only go so far. Yes., research can be done but it will take decades before it gets operationalized.

First, it's a legit question as the fog conditions in north India is a major concern for safe travel.

But in reply the legit question has been brushed aside with some wild numbers "13-years to train a driver"... With grandfatherly advice "but research can be done" with a finale of authorative conclusion that "will take decades to operationalize". .. Just wow.

What if I research and make work a thermal camera to work with locos in 2-years. Will you buy it?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Dec 2016 01:53

Mort Walker wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Need to switch to electric loco as much as possible. It's far more energy efficient.
No. In the event of a conflict with China or Pak we could lose power lines and part of the railway electric grid. Better to run more on diesel locos and still have the capacity to move cargo, troops, and evacuate people if need be.

Take a look at Northwestern Railways. All diesel no electric for good reason.

I get it, we can have diesel locos for such situations. But for every day usage, electrification can be done. It's not like only northwestern areas of India are only exposed to paki attacks.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Dec 2016 01:59

Rishi Verma wrote:
disha wrote:
It is multiple things they see including signals and other things which only a driver trained for 13 years is trained to see and unless the entire window can operate in thermal or blind conditions., the thermal cameras can only go so far. Yes., research can be done but it will take decades before it gets operationalized.
First, it's a legit question as the fog conditions in north India is a major concern for safe travel.

But in reply the legit question has been brushed aside with some wild numbers "13-years to train a driver"... With grandfatherly advice "but research can be done" with a finale of authorative conclusion that "will take decades to operationalize". .. Just wow.

What if I research and make work a thermal camera to work with locos in 2-years. Will you buy it?

Having no level-crossings and fences in required areas is more practical. A train at a decent speed will have huge momentum, even if it spots something it can't be stopped immediately. They have very long stopping distances. You can look up videos of trains hitting animals in western countries as well. The driver in many cases spots the animal at a good distance but the train can't be brought to a stand still even if hard breaking is done. So such cameras may be helpful near stations where trains run at slow speeds but won't be of much help once they gain speed outside cities.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 15 Dec 2016 02:34

Most of the trunk routes are already electrified. See:
Indian Railways: Electrification Map
This is a 6 year old map. A newer one would have much more electrification shown. Please post if you find one.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Dec 2016 06:42

Karthik S wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
No. In the event of a conflict with China or Pak we could lose power lines and part of the railway electric grid. Better to run more on diesel locos and still have the capacity to move cargo, troops, and evacuate people if need be.

Take a look at Northwestern Railways. All diesel no electric for good reason.
I get it, we can have diesel locos for such situations. But for every day usage, electrification can be done. It's not like only northwestern areas of India are only exposed to paki attacks.

The problem is, what will you do with the diesels while the electrics perform the everyday usage? One can't exactly mothball them till needed - they are purchased using public money, so will need to be put to productive use. And we can't use shunters on the mainline (too little power), or mainline locos as shunters (too much wastage). And like other logistical problems, they'll need to be distributed enough across the network so in the event of an emergency, they can be pressed into service immediately.

IR has a rule that on all routes, x% (I think it is 10) of trains will be run by diesels, so there are enough locos circulating in the system at any time. This percent I understand is what's needed to service military requirements in the event of an emergency.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 15 Dec 2016 08:01

Karthik S wrote:Having no level-crossings and fences in required areas is more practical. A train at a decent speed will have huge momentum, even if it spots something it can't be stopped immediately. They have very long stopping distances.

That's the key. Our tracks are freeways for all, no access control coupled with a callous disregard for safety and rules means that plenty of people will make their way across the tracks.

Karthik S wrote:So such cameras may be helpful near stations where trains run at slow speeds but won't be of much help once they gain speed outside cities.

They will, if tracks are fully access controlled. At high speeds and low visibility, human decision making too will be heavily compromised. Such devices will be required then.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Dec 2016 10:26

http://www.newdelhitimes.com/the-future ... in-uae123/
The company is looking at India as one of its initial target markets. HTT Chief Operating Officer Bibop Gresta says that “India stepping into the Age of Hyperloop means tremendous opportunities for Indian talent. India is the perfect example of a vibrant country that could benefit immensely”. The HTT estimates that single tube could carry 1.44 lakh passengers daily at 40-second intervals. Over a distance of 500 km, it is aiming for ticket price under $30, or Rs 2000. Gresta further says that Optimum use of of Hyperloop would mean that a capsule would come to a station every 7 minutes. Following a recent visit to Elon Musk’s Tesla electric car factory in California, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi expressed interest in the path breaking technology.

In September 2016, Indian Union Minister of Highways, Transport, Ports and Shipping, Nitin Gadkari said that he had met Elon Musk and his team in New Delhi and asked them to run a pilot project of the Hyperloop between Mumbai and Pune besides the Expressway. If Tesla takes the development forward in this region, the distance between Mumbai and Nagpur, more than 800 kms, could be covered in just 35 minutes. If Hyperloop technology comes into operation in India, the average speed of the capsule is estimated to be 970km/h, with a top speed of 1200 km/h. With this speed, the distance from Delhi to Mumbai which is more than 1000 km could be covered in less than 2 hours. However, the technology could also face a number of hurdles in its implementation.

disha · Post by **disha** » 19 Dec 2016 04:45

Rishi Verma wrote:... in reply the legit question has been brushed aside with some wild numbers "13-years to train a driver"... With grandfatherly advice "but research can be done" with a finale of authorative conclusion that "will take decades to operationalize". .. Just wow.

^^ Verbal diarrhea some of it bordering on personal attack ...

Before calling this as throwing some wild numbers: "13 years to train a driver" - please learn to do some research.

Rishi Verma wrote:What if I research and make work a thermal camera to work with locos in 2-years. Will you buy it?

Please do the following in two years and I *will* sell you a Kaveri GT based loco engine:

1. Make sure that your solution works with 90% efficiency in at least one sector on all trains 90% of the time. That is if there are 90 days of fog say in the NE sector., then your system must work for 81 days error free. And if there are 100 accidents in that sector attributable to fog., it has to reduce the number of accidents by 90 to only 10.

2. It has to reduce the driver fatigue. On an objective ranking., the driver will prefer to use your IR cameras rather than preferring not to use it.

3. It should not harm the driver. That is a sudden light/glint/reflection should not cause a glare on the IR camera that it may blind the driver even momentarily.

And all of the above should be on a IR camera - that is a. Cheaper and b. Serviceable and c. should survive through various climate zones of India.

---

I find it odd that the iPhone culture seeps into everything as if using an iPhone (or a exploding samsung phone) makes everybody expert on implementing a bright idea - but if only just the luddites of the IR and more importantly the dirty/unwashed/unsanitary Indian population open up their minds to the great iPhone.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Dec 2016 06:47

Indian Railways incorporates French security system for protection in trains
With the completion of this project, Thales brings to India the advanced signalling system that has been deployed in Europe.
By Indo-Asian News Service | Published: December 21, 2016 11:41 PM IST

http://www.india.com/technology/indian- ... s-1717363/

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 28 Dec 2016 08:42

15 bogies of Sealdah-Ajmer express train derail near Kanpur, 40 injured

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 211462.cms

Atleast 40 injured

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 28 Dec 2016 08:45

^ 2 killed, the number will likely go up, let us hope, not by much.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 28 Dec 2016 10:25

The last accident too was near Kanpur (Kanpur Dehat) and was attributed to stress fracture.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 28 Dec 2016 10:39

Kashi wrote:The last accident too was near Kanpur (Kanpur Dehat) and was attributed to stress fracture.

Looks like the quality of track maintenance has come down very badly all across IR. There were a couple of accidents in Kerala also during the last 12 months, and they too were attributed to stress fracture of the track. When Laloo was the railway minister he had drastically reduced the number of gang men posts across railways, as a cost cutting measure. And in IR, Gang-men are the actual "key pins" to rail safety as they are the folks who patrol the railway tracks on foot; be it night or day. It would be better for the Rail Manthri and his top brass to actually get back to ensuring that the existing infrastructure is NOT crumbling. Modernisation, Wi-Fi etc. are all good things to have, but quality of the tracks cannot be ignored. Rest assured, opposition would start asking for the RM to resign.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 28 Dec 2016 10:50

Kashi wrote:The last accident too was near Kanpur (Kanpur Dehat) and was attributed to stress fracture.

That accident occurred on Kanpur-Jhansi route which goes to central and south india. This one has occurred on delhi route.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 28 Dec 2016 12:21

It seems to me that there has been a rise in railway accidents during Suresh Prabhu's tenure. Needs serious pull up from PMO. And they are planning to run Semi-high speed trains on these tracks. Shudder to think of it.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 28 Dec 2016 15:54

Railways to run passenger trains on LNG, cut diesel costs by 20%
http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report-ra ... 20-2285018

Wi-Fi on trains from next year: Suresh Prabhu
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/i ... rabhu.html

Railways earnings from cashless ticketing increase 30 percent
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 53601.html

To check misuse, Central Railway wants CCTV cams in coaches for handicapped
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 208876.cms

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Jan 2017 08:34

http://www.firstpost.com/india/mumbai-a ... 89574.html

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's dream project of Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train is as good as ready on paper, with all land acquisition processes being personally monitored by Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis, who is also looking into a Mumbai-Nagpur bullet train.
Fadnavis had promised to form an expert committee to look into environment issue. The bullet train proposal has been sent to the Cabinet subcommittee and if the subcommittee green-lights the proposal, the MoU for the train is set to be signed next week at the Vibrant Gujarat Summit. Meanwhile, Shiv Sena chief Uddhav Thackeray had criticised the bullet train proposal, saying that it was only an election promise made by the BJP.

A highly-placed source from the MMRDA confirmed to Firstpost that the Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train will start its journey from BKC. Earlier, BKC, Dadar and Kurla were being looked at as possible options. And while the MMRDA initially opposed the site (BKC) as it wanted to use 40,000 square metres for an international business centre, it was last week that Fadnavis held a meeting with senior MMRDA officials and ordered them to finalise BKC as the first station for the bullet train.

The source also confirmed that Niti Aayog vice-chairman Arvind Panagariya held a meeting to finalise the location of the station. The total cost of the bullet trains is Rs 99,000 crore and a quarter of the burden will be borne by Maharashtra and Gujarat each. The remaining 50 percent will be the Central government's responsibility. As far as the Maharashtra government is concerned, it will have to pay Rs 25,000 and the MMRDA will foot the entire bill, said the source.
There are a total of 12 stations on the route — four of which are in Maharashtra and eight in Gujarat.
The project will be executed by a Special Purpose Vehicle and the PMO will personally monitor the progress of the project. The underground station and back area will be built on the same 40,000 square metres on which the international business centre will be built. According to a senior MMRDA official, it is not a problem to build the business centre overground and the station underground.
The Vibrant Gujarat Summit will commence on 9 January.

Good news that the terminal station in Mumbai has been finally decided. But 12 stations in a 500KM HSR route seems one too many.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Jan 2017 08:55

Karthik S wrote:Good news that the terminal station in Mumbai has been finally decided. But 12 stations in a 500KM HSR route seems one too many.

Not all trains will stop at all 12 stations.

For instance, the Tōkaidō Shinkansen (Osaka-Tokyo) has 17 stations on a route length of 515km. The fastest trains, Nozomi stop only at 6 of them. There are slower trains that serve the other stations on the route. I believe the same principles will be followed here.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Jan 2017 09:11

Kashi wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Good news that the terminal station in Mumbai has been finally decided. But 12 stations in a 500KM HSR route seems one too many.
Not all trains will stop at all 12 stations.

For instance, the Tōkaidō Shinkansen (Osaka-Tokyo) has 17 stations on a route length of 515km. The fastest trains, Nozomi stop only at 6 of them. There are slower trains that serve the other stations on the route. I believe the same principles will be followed here.

I am thinking that only one type of high speed train will run on this route.