Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Dec 2016 11:11

Someone please post the Rout article on reduced range. My phone is a ting up.

Thanks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Dec 2016 11:45

ramana wrote:Someone please post the Rout article on reduced range. My phone is a ting up.

Thanks.

Indigenously developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the missile, considered as a game changer was fired for a reduced range and the mission was termed a copy book success.

"Though the missile has the capability to strike targets more than 5,000 km away, it was tested for less than 2,500 km. The missile followed the pre-designated flight path perfectly and reached the point of impact as expected. The duration of entire flight was 19 minutes," said a defence official.

It was fourth trial of Agni-V and first test of a long range missile after India joins Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). With the successful test India has achieved another major milestone in its on-going defence preparedness signaling that this developing country is steadily but surely becoming a super power in the South East Asia region.

Defence sources said the sophisticated missile blasted off from the launching complex-four (LC-IV) of the Abdul Kalam Island at about 11.05 am.

Commanded by the on-board computer with a support of highly accurate ring laser gyro based inertial navigation system, the most modern micro inertial navigation system (MINS), fully digital control system and advanced compact avionics, the missile hit the designated target point accurately, meeting all mission objectives.

The test has demonstrated the maturity, repeatability and robustness of the Agni-V system, paving the way for initiation of its production and subsequent induction, the official said.

The missile, powered by three-stage solid rocket motors had in fact a flawless, spectacular launch in auto mode and followed its entire trajectory in textbook manner, dropping the three motors at predefined stages into the ocean.

All the radars and electro-optical systems monitored the performance parameters of the weapon and displayed information in real time. All the systems and subsystems of the missile, including the launch system, navigation system, control systems, rocket motors and re-entry mechanism performed well.

Agni-V is the country’s first intercontinental range ballistic missile which is capable of hitting targets in all Asian countries and parts of Africa and Europe. The 17-meter long, 2-meter wide, three-stage, solid-fuelled missile can carry a payload of 1.5 tonne and weighs around 50 tonnes.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Dec 2016 11:47

I recollect during last Agni-2 test they mentioned to cover 2500 km it took around 13 minutes , So why does it take 19 mins to cover the same range something seems wrong here.

How do they get higher re-entry speed of ICBM at reduced range ?

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 28 Dec 2016 11:50

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/printrelease. ... lid=155897

Successful Test launch of AGNI V
by *Dilip Ghosh

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 28 Dec 2016 11:52

Other reports are saying that it was tested to full range. Don't know which one to believe.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Dec 2016 11:54

It now appears that our ground launched ICBM/proto ICBM has been tested to the point where it can enter production marking the completion of the first phase of our mobile land-based deterrent .Certainly a much longer ranged version of the A-5 is needed.WE need to break out of the "capability limitation" mindeset that the West imposed on us treating us still like colonial serfs. But more importantly is the requirement of a true ICBM capability sub-launched. Until we possess true UW ICBM capability ,where from our "home waters" of the IOR we can strike any target on any continent,we will be nothing more than a "pocket N-power".Our ICBMs should also be on patrol both in the southern Pacific and Atlantic oceans to make it more difficult for the PLAN to track and counter our ICBMs,why the extended range of SSBN launched ICBMs are required. These subs should have at least 16 missile silos.
A smaller version of the RU improved Borei class could be looked at as a design to develop. One is not sure what the dimensions of the follow-on Arihant class is going to be and how many missiles that it can carry,but we should be building post 2020,a new SSBN class which will be able to accomodate such an ICBM when it is perfected.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 28 Dec 2016 11:57

From the Ajai Shukla article on the Agni 5:

At the target end, in the stretch of ocean between the southern tips of Africa and Australia, radar-equipped naval warships are pre-positioned to monitor where the missile strikes. There is no scope for error beyond a few hundred metres

The southern tip of Africa is 34 degrees south latitude, the southern tip of Australia is 39 degrees south latitude. Wheeler Island, the launch site is 21 degrees north latitude. The test was due south with a bearing of approximately 180 degrees. Each degree of latitude is 69 miles. So if you calculate the target area at say 37 degree south latitude (straight line from the southern tip of Africa to the southern tip of Australia), the missile will have traveled 58 degrees of latitude x 69 miles per latitude i.e. 4002 miles, about 6400 kms. Assuming of course that Shukla has the correct information.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Dec 2016 12:03

Austin wrote:I recollect during last Agni-2 test they mentioned to cover 2500 km it took around 13 minutes , So why does it take 19 mins to cover the same range something seems wrong here.

How do they get higher re-entry speed of ICBM at reduced range ?

Probably lofted very high. higher the loft, greater the angle of entry too, which means lesser atmospheric travel to slow it down. I suspect this was a launch with political messaging. Cheen has gone full-paki for no apparent reason.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Dec 2016 12:16

hnair wrote:
Austin wrote:I recollect during last Agni-2 test they mentioned to cover 2500 km it took around 13 minutes , So why does it take 19 mins to cover the same range something seems wrong here.

How do they get higher re-entry speed of ICBM at reduced range ?
Probably lofted very high. higher the loft, greater the angle of entry too, which means lesser atmospheric travel to slow it down. I suspect this was a launch with political messaging. Cheen has gone full-paki for no apparent reason.

Yes thats one possibility , the other is a highly depressed trajectory

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 28 Dec 2016 12:27

Please watch the video. The panelists mention that Agni VI is basically prototype for submarine launch missile with ICBM range. I don't think India needs or will want to have max range land based ICBMs but will have SLBMs for secondary capacity in case any of the non-threatening nations go Paki. Land-based Agni VI will be used only for MARV and MIRV, IMO.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Dec 2016 12:43

Jayasimha's PIB link crisply sums up the deployment status

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/printrelease. ... lid=155897

Agni series of missiles was conceptualized by Indian defence planners in the 1980s keeping in view India’s threat perceptions particularly from its neighbours. The two-stage Agni technology demonstrator, with a solid-fuel first stage, was first tested at the Interim Test Range in Chandipur in 1989. It was capable of carrying a conventional payload of 1,000 kg or a nuclear warhead. This technology demonstrator evolved into the solid-fuel Agni-1 and Agni-2 missiles later. India then developed the single-stage Agni-1, which was first tested in January 2002. The 700–1250 km range Agni I missiles are rail and road mobile and powered by solid propellants. Thereafter, India developed the 2,000–2,500 km range Agni – II missiles and 3000- 3500 km range Agni III missiles which were claimed to be a part of the credible deterrence against China and Pakistan. All these three missiles of Agni series have already been inducted into Indian Army. On 20 January 2014 India successfully test fired the 3,000–4,000 km Agni-IV missile. Equipped with state-of-the-art technologies that includes indigenously developed ring laser gyro and composite rocket motor, the two stage Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile, IRBM, Agni IV can take a nuclear warhead of one ton. It is now undergoing field trials before induction in the armed forces.

India successfully conducted the fourth and final experimental test of its indigenously developed Inter Continental Ballistic Missile, ICBM, Agni-V from Wheeler Island off Odisha coast on yesterday, the 26th December 2016...Designed and developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, DRDO, the three stage solid propellant missile will now go for user trials before its induction into the tri-service Strategic Forces Command, SFC which manages India's nuclear arsenal.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Dec 2016 13:08

Equipped with state-of-the-art technologies that includes indigenously developed ring laser gyro and composite rocket motor, the two stage Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile, IRBM, Agni IV can take a nuclear warhead of one ton. It is now undergoing field trials before induction in the armed forces.

Somehow remember the panelists in the video authoritatively mentioning that the A-IV was also inducted....lots of varying info floating around, it seems

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 28 Dec 2016 13:21

This test could also have AST component

We will never get clear picture of our stratgic programs ... many aspects should be kept in dark for surprises.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 28 Dec 2016 14:35

Kanchanbagh is address for India's Agni V might

Though defence officials would want to stick to the 5,000 km range, sources said the inter-continental ballistic missile can be 'tweaked' to 'go for the kill' anywhere between 8,000 to 10,000 km range.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 Dec 2016 18:33

DRDO Facebook post:

Successful Test Flight of Agni-5
Agni-5, the Long Range Surface-to-Surface Ballistic Missile was successfully flight tested by DRDO today at 1100hrs from Dr. Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha. The full range test-flight of the missile has further boosted the indigenous missile capabilities and deterrence level of the country. All the Radars, tracking systems and Range Stations tracked and monitored the flight performance and all the Mission objectives were successfully met. This was the 4th test of Agni-5 missile and the second one from a Canister on a Road Mobile Launcher. All the four missions have been successful.
The President of India Shri Pranab Mukherjee congratulated DRDO for the successful test flight of Agni-V which will enhance the country’s strategic and deterrence capabilities.
The Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi congratulated DRDO on successful test firing of Agni-V saying that it is the result of hard work of DRDO and its scientists which makes every Indian proud and adds tremendous strength to our strategic defence. Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar also congratulated DRDO for the successful test firing of Agni-V for further strengthening India’s defence capabilities.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2016 19:48

sum wrote:Somehow remember the panelists in the video authoritatively mentioning that the A-IV was also inducted....lots of varying info floating around, it seems

The Dec. 8, 2015 test of Agni-IV was conducted by the SFC. the then DRDO chief, Dr. Avinash Chander said so.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2016 22:22

What eej the distance to the rectangle?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 28 Dec 2016 22:24

Roughly 5000 KM using google maps' "measure distance" option.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 28 Dec 2016 22:33

The UN Security Council has explicit regulations on whether India can develop ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

Does anyone know what regulations China is talking about?

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 28 Dec 2016 23:12

^^ viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6863&p=2094349#p2094156

But I guess, since we are already part of MTCR, we don't have to worry about this.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Dec 2016 03:48

dinesha wrote:
The UN Security Council has explicit regulations on whether India can develop ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons.
Does anyone know what regulations China is talking about?

China Rakes Up 1998 UNSC Resolution in Response to India’s Agni-V Test

China and Trump have the same basic features. Rewrite history as they please.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 29 Dec 2016 04:05

It is getting a bit too much with the "select few" bringing Trump in every conversation (forum post only) they please. Can we not make an attempt to derail every thread?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2016 04:31

Someone asked about battery issues.

Usually these are divided into compartments for electrolyte solution in a bag and electrode compartment. A pyrotechnic device pierces the bag before the launch and electrolyte will flood the other compartment. Battery voltage is monitored and only when righ amount the ignition will happen. Now electrolyte might not we fully the electrodes and could give under performance.
So battery diagnostics to find out what issues were there could have delayed this flight.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2016 04:33

prasannasimha, How did you plot the Notam coordinates?

Cane you tell how far the rectangle nearside and farside what are distances from launch area, Kalam Island?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2016 04:45

Abdul Kalam Island:

20.7577,87.0837

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 29 Dec 2016 04:57

So Why do we need 2 or more missiles for each segment?

300-1200 - Agni1-P and Shaurya (if at all?)
2000-4000 - Agni-2, Agni-3 and Agni-4
4000-8000 - Agni-5 and Agni-6?

It looks like too much overlap, especially if most of them only carry 1 warhead.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2016 05:24

ramana wrote:Abdul Kalam Island:

20.7577N,87.0837E

Five points South of Equator:

-25.32,88.44
-25.18,91.04
-24.9,93.63
-14.99,92.60
-15.4,87.64

http://www.darrinward.com/lat-long/?id=2514357

So Kalam island is 20.7577N, 87.084E
Farthest point is -25.32 S, 88.32E
So distance is
5123km using
US National Hurricane Distance calculator

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gccalc.shtml
Using closest point 14.99S , 92.60E
Gives 4018Km.

From NOTAM settles the range. Can't be at 2500km.

5000 km test.....

QED.......

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Dec 2016 05:42

Bheeshma wrote:So Why do we need 2 or more missiles for each segment?

300-1200 - Agni1-P and Shaurya (if at all?)
2000-4000 - Agni-2, Agni-3 and Agni-4
4000-8000 - Agni-5 and Agni-6?

It looks like too much overlap, especially if most of them only carry 1 warhead.

1. Study the flight paths of Agni-1P and Shaurya and you would realize that there is no overlap. Range is only one parameter.
2. Agni 4 is Agni 2P. Agni-2P/4 will replace Agni-2. The productionized Agni-3 is not what was shown on RD parades

. All lessons learnt on Agni-2P/4 have been applied to Agni-3. Effectively, what is fielded is Agni-3P. It has a larger payload/range than the Agni-2P/4.
3. Let's wait for Agni 6 to come out. It will not be Agni-5.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 07:00

Agni-6 ICBM evolving organically from Agni-5
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2016/12/a ... -from.html

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 29 Dec 2016 07:04

^^ I think based on IGDMP all these agni versions are more like milestones. As of now, the optimised versions like A-3 would be produced more than A-2 or A-4. And same for A-5 to A-X class as well.

May be political realities force us to test in small (1000-2000km) extensions instead of going from 3,000 km to 10,000 km.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Dec 2016 07:45

Can Gurus read the range from the plot that's showing on screen. If it's tested to range of 5000 then seems it's not its full range as seen from the graph. Can experts shed some light.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 29 Dec 2016 07:52

^^^^
The Mizzile is still sitting on the trailer and its a dated pic , it was supposed to be a canister launch .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2016 08:02

It's not cannister launch. So moot point.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2016 08:06

uddu wrote:https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uGpptRrpzh0/ ... launch.jpg
Can Gurus read the range from the plot that's showing on screen. If it's tested to range of 5000 then seems it's not its full range as seen from the graph. Can experts shed some light.

Old image. No canister

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 29 Dec 2016 09:38

From Zee News. The next strategic missiles to be tested are the K4 Mark 2 SLBM (SLBM equivalent of Agni V although they are very different missiles) and Surya (basically Agni VI).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 09:58

I believe the Surya name was never official. Also makes sense to continue with the Agni nomenclature. Less visibility.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Dec 2016 11:06

shiv wrote:
Old image. No canister

Why it is not a Canister launch?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Dec 2016 11:12

^^^The first time Agni-V came it was without canisters. Only later it was thought and implemented. Thank you everyone for pointing that out.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Dec 2016 11:16

Supratik wrote:From Zee News. The next strategic missiles to be tested are the K4 Mark 2 SLBM (SLBM equivalent of Agni V although they are very different missiles) and Surya (basically Agni VI).

As per Wiki there is no such missile as Surya. It was a report from 1995 published by The Nonproliferation Review that mentioned this name. 22 years have passed and there is no such missile exposing their lies.

But yes it is indeed a beautiful name..to have for a missile. If we start on such a missile in 2017, it will be a good name to have.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2016 11:45

svinayak wrote:
shiv wrote:
Old image. No canister
Why it is not a Canister launch?

Early flight was from TEL. To proof the missile.
First cannister launch was in Jan 2015. More challenging than TEL.
Now this.