Artillery: News & Discussion

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Dec 2016 22:27

Indian artillery gun shines in trials, to be displayed on Republic Day

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/12/i ... s.html?m=1

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 28 Dec 2016 23:04

ashishvikas wrote:Indian artillery gun shines in trials, to be displayed on Republic Day

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/12/i ... s.html?m=1

From the link :

ATAGS will have a 25-litre chamber.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Dec 2016 00:24

Hip hip hurray! Three cheers to Ajai Shukla for bringing in the good news. Looking at the APU, I think this is the Bharat Forge gun. Can anybody confirm? I would be happier if the Tata APU can have an indigenous engine. I had read that Mercedes powered FH-77 APU costed a bomb and was the reason for some of the non-availability of our FH-77s.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Dec 2016 00:30

ashishvikas wrote:Indian artillery gun shines in trials, to be displayed on Republic Day

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/12/i ... s.html?m=1

Interesting titbit:-

The ATAGS is the world’s only gun with a six-round “automated magazine”, which lets it fire a six-round burst in just 30 seconds.

These enhanced performance attributes have increased the weight of ATAGS to 16 tonnes, a couple of tonnes heavier than comparable towed guns. The army is willing to accept a heavier gun that delivers significantly better performance.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 00:38

Six round bursts in 30 seconds. That is one 155mm round every five seconds! I would hate to be the enemy facing that barrage. Imagine an entire battery of them firing at 30 second intervals. Intense!

nash · Post by **nash** » 29 Dec 2016 01:15

In case of next cross border firing let's put the prototype around attari and test it in burst mode on Lahore.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Dec 2016 03:04

Indranil wrote:Hip hip hurray! Three cheers to Ajai Shukla for bringing in the good news.~~Looking at the APU, I think this is the Bharat Forge gun. Can anybody confirm?~~ I would be happier if the Tata APU can have an indigenous engine. I had read that Mercedes powered FH-77 APU costed a bomb and was the reason for some of the non-availability of our FH-77s.

P.S. Don't know which version was tested:

Next in line, mount it on the Arjun chassis, and the Tata 8X8.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 29 Dec 2016 08:48

The initially declared specs of 12 tons did seem iffy. 25 litre chamber and 6 round magazine and 30 second burst is definitely a good news. Gives pistol mode a whole another meaning

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 29 Dec 2016 08:51

Thakur_B wrote:6 round magazine and 30 second burst is definitely a good news. Gives pistol mode a whole another meaning

nice

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Dec 2016 09:04

by Nash
In case of next cross border firing let's put the prototype around attari and test it in burst mode on Lahore.

Well! when you drive from Attari to Lahore the first thing that comes is a village of Batapur (just across the artificial canal), then Shalimar Bagh and then Lahore Fort. While majority of Lahore's defense area (Lahore Cantt is little to the left of the G.T road) . majority of the areas across of Wagah/Attari border are useless old historical areas!

If you set up Guns anywhere 5 kms to the south of G.T road and/or 5 kms north of Barki-Bhikhiwind road 10 kms from border. Whole of Lahore Cantt, Airport and many other useful areas easily come into range.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Dec 2016 09:45

I was really happy about the report till i came across this:

Notwithstanding the army’s enthusiasm, the ATAGS faces a stiff regimen of trials before entering service. In June, “range and accuracy trials” will be conducted to evaluate its accuracy and its effect on the target. Its performance will be evaluated in varying terrain conditions, like deserts, plains, mountains and high altitude; both in summer and winter. The gun’s mobility, and that of the Ashok Leyland tractor that tows it, will also be evaluated. Maintenance evaluation trials (MET) will follow.

Can only hope and pray that we see the actual thing in service after it passes these year long tests. So, it is still quite some distance away

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Dec 2016 10:16

Can we hit Skardu using this gun from the present LOC?

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Dec 2016 10:42

Closest point to Skardu in Indian Kashmir is Kargil. Kargil to Skardu is 58 Kms which is out of range. We could use smaller Prithvi missile to hit Skardu from Srinagar itself!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Dec 2016 10:48

SBajwa wrote:Closest point to Skardu in Indian Kashmir is Kargil. Kargil to Skardu is 58 Kms which is out of range. We could use smaller Prithvi missile to hit Skardu from Srinagar itself!

PInaka during Kargil war had 52km distance because it was launched from Kargil, Smerch/Pinaka II can take out Skardu Airbase and related Army logistical chain.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2016 10:48

beyond 40km I think its tough to control the dispersion of shells and rockets and thats where the expensive smart shells and trajectory correction devices come into play.

if someone can come up with a 60km range weapon without the need for costly rocket assisted shells or trajectory correction using perhaps a larger chamber volume that is best for India. if ATAGS has a 25 liter chamber that is the route we are going. large charges, masses of cheap dumb shells out to 40k, fire for effect by 18 gun networked regiments

let khan claim the moral high ground with its 100k smart shells, desis have to manage volumes of rice n sambar first.

denel I think never managed to productionize its rumoured 70km range "assegai" shell technology.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2016 10:57

and the tech is nothing out of world, naval 5" guns have been using L55 barrels and huge chambers for a long long time and as you know some of them Oto127 have a terrifying rapid fire mode as well. coming to the heavies the 15" and 16" on the battleships fired shells that weighed some ton or so and were hydraulically fed from magazine many decks below. the charges were rammed in mechanically.

with modern artillery shells and directors imagine what those cannons could do.

given the heavily built up nature of many operating areas there is a need for a low velocity high angle 8" howitzer in the true sense of the word. make it short range like 15k, but pack in a enormous 200kg demolition explosive....

tow it behind a truck.

let everyone be clearly aware of our displeasure and wrath. let the earth shake.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 Dec 2016 11:08

SBajwa wrote:Closest point to Skardu in Indian Kashmir is Kargil. Kargil to Skardu is 58 Kms which is out of range. We could use smaller Prithvi missile to hit Skardu from Srinagar itself!

Prithivis are probably being retired. Any idea about how many are still in active duty ?
Minor nitpick, but this thing always gets my beloved goats whenever whole of J&K is bundled in to Kashmir. Kargil district is in Laddakh division.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 29 Dec 2016 23:41

Aditya_V wrote:.....PInaka during Kargil war had 52km distance because it was launched from Kargil....

Pinaka used in Kargil - truth or urban legend?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Dec 2016 23:45

^^^Pinaka launcher was attached to the Rocket Regiment (IIRC 212 Rocket Regiment) which participated in the Kargil war. That is how this legend about Pinaka being ready in 1999 but induction delayed by army was born. Wikipedia also carries this false information.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 29 Dec 2016 23:54

Aditya G wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:.....PInaka during Kargil war had 52km distance because it was launched from Kargil....
Pinaka used in Kargil - truth or urban legend?

Truth, few units were indeed used in Kargil. And it was highly successful.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1615/16150040.htm

To the east of Yadlor lies Muntho Dal, the 5,065-m pyramid which has acted as Pakistan's principal supply base for the Batalik sector. Although Muntho Dalo has come under sustained air attack, and 105-millimetre field guns and multi-barrelled Pinaka rocket launchers have been pounding the position from the Silmoo Langpa, until July 9, the final physical occupation could again have taken time.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 29 Dec 2016 23:58

is this Pinaka?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 29 Dec 2016 23:59

Surely Pinaka Mk2 with 65 Km range can put Skardu out of commission? I hope it is inducted soon with ATAGS and Dhanush variants.

The vid seems like BM-21 Grad.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Dec 2016 00:00

The one in the video had far too many tubes to be Pinaka.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Dec 2016 00:08

^^^That is BM-21 GRAD.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2016 04:32

Atmavik wrote:is this Pinaka?

These clips are lifted from one of my videos that features Darkha Butt the explosion sound effects are mine. And fake...

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 30 Dec 2016 04:47

^^ i was searching for another NDTV video but cannot find it(maybe it does not exist) but i remember NDTV mentioning that the MBRL was Indian Designed. they also showed our tactics where the trucks are moved after firing. while we were watching this my Dad threw a fit saying these things should never be shown.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Dec 2016 14:22

The ATAGS program management is a lifelong dream come true for me. This is what I've been wanting and asking for ages!

Traditionally, indigenous weapon projects have been dominated by the DRDO. In ATAGS, however, the DRDO functions as a project manager and concept designer, while private firms handle much of the systems development. With the workload thus shared, the project is expected to escape the delays that have bedevilled past projects that were exclusively handled by an overloaded DRDO.

Development of the ATAGS system has been divided into nine “work packages”, with each package competitively tendered within India.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) won the tender to manufacture gun barrels, along with forgings giant, the Kalyani Group.

Mahindra Defence Systems will make the recoil system along with Tata Power SED, while Punj Lloyd will make the muzzle brake.

During full-scale manufacture, an entire eco-system of smaller Tier-2 and Tier-3 suppliers is expected to come up.

Historically, the agency doing development tried to do everything ground up, that was time consuming and required competencies to be built up to start with. There was the devil of professional rivalry of other departments overshadowing own department.

With the above approach, the work has been divided into 9 manageable and accountable packages, competitively leveraging the strengths of all players in the ecosystem.

When you have 9 teams working cohesively, progress is bound to be fast!

The person who devised the ATAGS program needs to be awarded & recognized for changing the way R&D is done in India.

I fervently hope its not a one-off flash in the pan, but the way forward for all programs.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Dec 2016 15:20

Tsarkar link please.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 30 Dec 2016 15:39

^^
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/12/i ... rials.html

Indian artillery gun shines in trials, to be displayed on Republic Day

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Dec 2016 16:06

Thanks

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Jan 2017 08:43

Are we finally going to see the Vajra deal being signed?

It cites unnamed sources, though.

Boosting military firepower: Modi government close to $660 million arms deal

India is set to finalize a $660 million deal for mobile heavy artillery weapons -- its third major gun purchase in the past year and a sign Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s defense spending spree is far from over, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

The deal, expected to be approved in a cabinet decision in the coming days after extended commercial price negotiations, is a big win for Larsen & Toubro Ltd., a major Indian infrastructure and engineering company which partnered with South Korea’s Hanwha Techwin to modify the howitzer for local conditions.

It’s part of Modi’s $250 billion push to modernize the armed forces and overcome a 30-year lapse in its firepower procurement program, as India prepares to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China. Plans to buy new equipment from overseas have been held back by bureaucratic delays and the military’s desire to balance the needs of troops against efforts to have equipment built domestically under Modi’s "Make in India" program.

An Indian Army officer, who did not wish to be named as the matter is yet to go public, said the purchase contract for the 100 guns offered by L&T is pending final clearance and will soon go to the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval.

A second person familiar with the discussions who could not be named said the deal had been approved by the Ministry of Defence and was now with the Ministry of Finance. The proposal would be sent to cabinet for endorsement soon, they said.

Artillery modernization is long overdue, said Anit Mukherjee, assistant professor in the South Asia Program at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore.

"Once these are inducted, these will give significant capabilities to the Indian military, both in the mountains and in the plains." After the cabinet approves the deal, it could take two-to-four years before the weapons are delivered to India, he said.

India Ministry of Defence spokesman Nitin Wakankar had no comment to offer on the possibility of the deal for the 155-mm 52-caliber K9 artillery gun -- modified for the army’s need for a highly mobile, long-range deep fire support weapon with a higher rate of fire -- being signed.

An email and phone calls to Larsen & Toubro seeking comment on the deal remain unanswered.

Since July last year, India’s state-owned Ordnance Factory delivered six locally-made 155-mm 45-caliber ‘Dhanush’ guns. In November, India signed a $737-million deal with the US for buying 145 155-mm 42-caliber M777 guns.

Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Nov. 18 in New Delhi that the Indian Army had in mid-2016 inducted the Dhanush guns which would be tested by soldiers before more were added to the artillery regiments.

Some of these acquisitions are legacy items, Mukherjee said. The Dhanush project was started under former defense minister A. K. Antony in 2012 and the M777 howitzer deal was also under consideration earlier. "But it’s true that the Modi government made it happen," he said.

S.K. Chatterji, an independent strategic affairs analyst based in Delhi and a former brigadier in the Indian Army’s artillery regiment, said the acquisition of the guns "will tremendously improve the conventional war fighting capability of the Indian Army."

"Artillery is the weapon of choice when armies want to deploy a great amount of firepower on the enemy, but without escalating the battle to missiles deployment. Artillery also gives the stand-off advantage to forces," Chatterji said.

"The government has been aware that not a single artillery gun had been procured for 30 years now," he said, noting other significant weapons tenders were underway. "These are just the beginning."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2017 15:03

its a small deal of just 100 units. should have no problem. these have a ROI only in really bad desert - rest of it towed guns can cover. some would say tracked howitzers are obsolete and trucked ones like the archer and caesar are the future.

the main deal is the Dhanush and ATAGS guns which are needed in 1000s.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 04 Jan 2017 19:50

Doval in one of his speeches was very particular about investing in missiles as a means of defending ourselves from our larger neighbor. Artillery is in a way missile system for the short range. Well placed and mobile light howitzers and associated ammunition in large numbers along with sufficient number of short range cruise missiles (brahmos) will be the best defense against invading forces from the North. Medium and long range ballistic missiles will only give us strategic deterrence in a nuclear scenario but not in terms of conventional war as accuracy of ballistic missiles is suspect and they are also vulnerable to S-400 BMD systems that Cheen is purchasing.

More than infantry or mechanised divisions, IA will gradually see more and more attention going into Artillery. MBRLs and Missiles come under Artillery anyways. Infantry and mechanised can be required in sufficient numbers for western front where we may have objectives to take and hold land, but for northern and eastern fronts our strategy is primarily defensive where overindexing on artillery will help balance the conventional asymmetry in terms of infrastructure and weapon systems.

MP's move to hold back on creation of mountain corps and rather invest the funds in plugging the holes in artillery seems like a wise decision.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 04 Jan 2017 20:13

schinnas wrote:MP's move to hold back on creation of mountain corps

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6809&p=2097180#p2097180

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 04 Jan 2017 21:57

ranjan.rao wrote:
schinnas wrote:MP's move to hold back on creation of mountain corps
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6809&p=2097180#p2097180

wow....great to see. It means somehow MP has been able to better utilize the budget and fund the formation of the mountain strike corps. However, with payroll and pension costs keep increasing, IA should look at improving the lethality of an infantry soldier and improve firepower per manpower so that total strength of army can be brought down without impacting its operational effectiveness.

For asymmetric defense, artillery and missiles are the key. Hope we get some success in developing 1000 km+ range cruise missiles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jan 2017 23:06

Two questions:
1) What were the modifications to the K9 system that IA needed?*
2) The 100 guns is a low number. Is it to set up the production line?

How come IA and IAF services demand modifications to standard products and jack up the price/delay schedules and make them unique spare parts nightmare wise etc.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Jan 2017 23:18

dust filters, hot and humid conditions, hot and high, high and cold... there are a variety of conditions in india which have to be catered for... when the core design may be for only one or two scenarios

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2017 23:23

even the abrams tanks needed extra sand filters to operate in arabi deserts. helicopters in that region routinely need more blade & engine changes due to sand abrasions.

cold, temperate, dust & mud free europe is a kids playground in comparison. actually all that swanky NATO gear ran into trouble in the more basic infra of Serbia itself when invasion was proposed and they would certainly not do well in russia vs germanic bahns. the russi urals truck for instance is legendary for its ability in mud, snow and cold.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jan 2017 23:50

Ok. fair enough. Instead why not call it tropicalize or desertify?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Jan 2017 22:56

usually we ask for both!