Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

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arshyam
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by arshyam »

Neshant wrote:"Advanced countries" are already in an advanced stage of removing control of savings & wages from their citizens and transferring it to banksters.
Hence their reason to remove cash and force people to deposit all their funds with private banks.
Losses of these banks can then be downloaded onto the people and wealth transferred away from them.
Its called a lock down - and it goes even further than controlling peoples wealth to spying on them.

Once an entity has control over all your earnings & savings and can take it away from you - you are no longer a free man.
You are a slave.

As for gold, moves are already underway to make sure all your purchases are registered and traceable to you.
The objective is to prevent any means of having you in control over the wealth you have earned.
The objective a little later down the road is also to tax you - i.e. take more wealth from you and keep you in a state of not ever being able to accumulate enough wealth to step off the treadmill.

That people here cannot see the above is what i find amazing. People here are literally cheering on their own enslavement - which is the end goal.

It rejects every notion of capitalism and liberty and puts in place a system where those who had no part in earning the wealth get to control the wealth.
^^ The oppari has started again. Imported problems, imported solutions... what you say is true in amrika, but you cannot explain how it can happen in India, despite repeated questions earlier. All you seem to do is to parrot some left-liberal nonsense that is nonsensical in India. Sure, in the great khan, all this happens, and some people do believe that whatever the great khan does, right or wrong, others should and will follow.

To start with, check out the fundamentals of economy in both countries - India is not debt driven like in amrika. Also, India is not run by a fully private banking system, unlike amrika. Point is, there are some fundamental differences in how we run our economy that problems will be unique to us. Instead of thinking what could go wrong within our system, folks like you are lazily content to let WSJ or Forbes to do the thinking, who simply broadcast what happened in their homeland, which gets parroted here. Come up with some well thought out points relevant to how we run our banking system and economy, then the discussion will be fruitful. Just trying to scare about some "banksters" does not cut it.

Now, as for govt control over your own money, the same thing exists with cash - Modi demonstrated that very well on Nov. 8, I think. How is e-banking any different? Or are you advocating moving back to gold currency and a barter system? Even govts in ancient India had some some form of govt issued currency, so not much has changed in that regard. Not sure what "ancient" amrika used to do for money...
Kashi
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Kashi »

arshyam wrote: Not sure what "ancient" amrika used to do for money...
Wiki chacha tells me that they used to trade shells

Image
Neshant
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Neshant »

sudarshan wrote:What is the alternative you suggest? There's never been a foolproof system of governance or money at any point in history.
If, as you rightly say, there has never been a foolproof system of governance or money - how could it make sense to transfer absolute control over the earnings & savings of 1.35 billion people to a few who had no part in earning that wealth.

We have already been colonized not once but a few times.

In every case, wealth that was concentrated (e.g. gold in temples..etc) was stolen. Those in power sought to devise methods to extract as much wealth as they could till the country became poor.

Note : I don't object to the move to fight corruption through the means the govt has implemented.
But this is a slippery slope.

Once govt/banksters regard wealth that you have earned as being theirs not yours to control, the freedom of people ends and serfdom begins.
Deans
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Deans »

UlanBatori wrote:I have a tough time visualizing electronic transactions when u want to tip the concierge at a hotel, or whoever insists on dragging ur bags to the room, or the person who cleans the room. Etc etc.

At Vishu, will ppl now exchange BHIM codes? Will the places of worship simply have swipe machines and displays on them + a QR code reader? wonder how toll booths on the highway work, where transaction time is crucial (if you double the average transaction time, Queueing Theory probably says that the lines become miles long).

Perhaps at places of worship, b4 you go there you select from a menu on the 'Net or on PayTM of all offerings, and then just get a QR code that you swipe at the entrance to get the Preferred Express Line to Blessings. Oh I forgot! They ban mobile phones!! Now what??

Neshant: looks like demand for gold is going to go through the roof. Except, don't buy those Official Coins, they probably have the gleaming nanochip in them with the radioactive isotope glowing from one's pockets and zapping one's mijjile. This 2000-rupee note may be a scam to reduce population.
Is anyone seriously going to tip in high value notes ? `Cashless' in the context the Govt means it is the replacement some of high value cash transactions
with digital / card payments. Incidentally the price of gold in India today is about 10% LOWER than before Demo.
UlanBatori
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Price of gold being lower: I think that is because honest ppl are afraid to go out and buy any, and the others don't have the BM handy to do it. Situation will change as alternatives dwindle and ppl converge on the only open solution.
Want a license to build something your company desperately needs? Have a sudden unexplained loss of an expensive gold chain. Babu will be happy to sympathize with your loss and "expedite" the license.
Jtly's reminder about Permitted Levels of Possession of gold for beti, bibi, babu etc is meant to scare, but I don't know how effective those can be.
shiv
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by shiv »

Neshant wrote: Once an entity has control over all your earnings & savings and can take it away from you - you are no longer a free man.
You are a slave. .
This bullshit was addressed a long time ago in Hindu tradition. The propaganda that was touted as freedom which you claim people in the west and "we" had is rubbish. That freedom does not come from outside. It can only come from inside

Can we put an end to this crap on this thread?

This time it's a request.
UlanBatori
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Come 2 think of it, my usual life is like this: Max of $20 in wallet, replenished when SHQ determines that level has gone too low. This may be months at a time, depends on when I am allowed to go out for pizza at lunchtime instead of my usual packed lunch. Going on travel means some unaccounted cash can come into wallet. Allowance of $100 for contingencies, which usually results in maybe $20 max spend on airport or highway fast-food. A few $1 notes to leave a tip at the usual "free" hotel breakfast. On multi-day stays this translates to several smilingly refilled water bottles, easily worth several times the investment. Anything else is swiped plastic or Internet with plastic codes.

For one who has escaped so much and got so much out of the sheer kindness of strangers in remote parts of the Silk Route, Gobi desert etc, I do not diss the value of small favors done to the most humble ppl I encounter.
Neshant
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Neshant »

arshyam wrote:Come up with some well thought out points relevant to how we run our banking system and economy, then the discussion will be
The issue lies in believing that someone needs to dictate what the monetary system should be.

In summarized terms, the free market should select the monetary system.
The free market being the people who earned the wealth.
That is capitalism.
Neshant
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Neshant »

Deans wrote: Incidentally the price of gold in India today is about 10% LOWER than before Demo.
The move to limit cash in theory is deflationary.
So the value of cash should rise against almost all other assets.

That being said, price is set by global players of which India is only a part.
srinebula
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by srinebula »

UlanBatori wrote: A few $1 notes to leave a tip at the usual "free" hotel breakfast.
How do you do this? hand over the notes to your waiter? I sometimes find it hard to tip under these circumstances, as there is no bill collection and the opportunity to hand over a tip seems tricky to find.
Viv S
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Viv S »

Neshant wrote:If, as you rightly say, there has never been a foolproof system of governance or money - how could it make sense to transfer absolute control over the earnings & savings of 1.35 billion people to a few who had no part in earning that wealth.
If you have a currency note at hand I suggest you take a long close look at it. You'll find its actually just a 'note' promising to pay its bearer a particular sum, signed by the head of a bank.

That piece of paper is considered money for no other reason than that the state says its money. It has no intrinsic value whatsover.

Its an extremely naive if not downright silly notion to believe that the state ever had anything less than absolute control over the monetary system.

The movement towards a cashless economy does not make an iota of difference to that reality save to erode the privacy associated with physical transactions.
hanumadu
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by hanumadu »


IndiaTodayFLASHVerified account
‏@IndiaTodayFLASH
I-T dept raids 4 bullion traders at Mumbai's Zaveri Bazaar. Traders reportedly deposited Rs 500 cr in accounts of slum dwellers #ITVideo
The anchor and the reporter were blabbering something instead of finding and explaining the modus operandi clearly.
Lilo
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Lilo »

:P

BHIM app is rocking .
Coached my mom over phone on how to set it up initially - simple as peas .
She sent me a test payment of 10 Rs just like that .
I sent her a 10 Rs back to complete the process.
chetak
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by chetak »

Assessing Demonetisation: Minsky Provides The Link That Traditional Economics Misses

Assessing Demonetisation: Minsky Provides The Link That Traditional Economics Misses

Vidhu Shekhar - Dec 30, 2016,


Snapshot

Traditional economists are still talking about theories that led to the global financial crisis of 2007-08, the after-effects of which we are still facing.

New-age endogenous money and Minskian economic theories, the ones that predicted and stood the test of the 2008 crisis, have good news for Modi.
With the end of demonetisation in sight, and partial remonetisation underway, it may be a good time to reassess the much-maligned economics of demonetisation.

Over this 50-day period, several economists have denounced demonetisation as poor economics, so much so that reading them has made us feel like we were experiencing mass famine. This, despite the fact that even the hard, early days were nearly-incident-free in spite of the enormity of the scale of operations.

These traditional, orthodox economists argue in the same breath that, while
demonetisation would hardly yield any effect on black economy, it would destroy the white economy. Somewhere, this doesn’t add up. But this is not their fault; after all, traditional economics teaches the existence of "money neutrality" -- money is critical for an economy to function, but has no other major effect on the real economy. So they selectively use the "critical" classification for white economy (hence destruction) and "not important" classification to black economy (hence saved).

But economists practising this kind of economics have been proved wrong, and often; unfortunately, the world has paid for some of their mistakes.

But enough about economics that doesn't work. Let’s talk about that which works.

One set of theories that has gained value after the 2008 crisis is the Minsky financial-economic theories. Writing in 1976, Hyman Minsky, an American economist and a distinguished scholar at Levy Economics Institute, came up with a model of capitalism called financial instability hypotheses. It was an extension of the original works of John Maynard Keynes, and is markedly accurate in predicting financial economic cycles, booms and busts. So accurate that Paul McCulley, former managing director of PIMCO, christened such an occurrence as the Minsky moment. The 2008 crisis was the biggest Minsky moment of them all.

One of the key aspects of Minsky's theory is money endogeneity. Unlike traditional economics, which treats currency notes as the total money in an economy, endogenous money says credit is also money and, hence, the total money in economy is the number of currency notes plus the new credit in the economy.

Credit is money. That is why companies don't need to carry cash everywhere for purchases. Most purchases happen in the form of credit settled through a business process. Even you can buy whatever you can in cash or credit (e.g., credit card, your khata at the kirana store or a village vendor extending credit).

This total money is not assumed to be neutral, as by traditional economists, but has a direct impact on prices and economic production. More new credit generated leads to more demand for goods in the economy and more economic growth and employment -- a well-established fact.

This should really not be that surprising given how historians and anthropologists, like David Graeber of the London School of Economics, have found that money originated in the form of a "credit tablet" -- similar to bank drafts -- rather than through barter as taught in Economics 101.

But what has this endogenous money/credit got to do with demonetisation? Actually, everything.

Credit is financial money that differentiates black economy from a white/cash white economy. Black economies have very low credit. When was the last time you paid bribe in credit? Or paid dowry in credit? Or bought drugs on credit? You may have bought some regular ration on and off on credit, though.

The illegality of black economy ensures that credit can't thrive in it. On the other hand, credit thrives in a white economy and is the main reason why economic growth occurs through companies’ borrowings.

Currency notes are important as well, being the last-mile consumer purchase system, but they are significantly malleable with credit, and for the short term, credit can expand and cover currency loss. That is why you see different countries with varying currency circulation, from ~4 per cent of GDP in Brazil to ~12 per cent of GDP in India, depending on credit proliferation.

This difference is what makes taking cash out akin to sucking the blood out of a black economy. With no or hardly any credit to cushion this sudden loss of currency, black economy GDP goes almost to zero. The old, accumulated assets of black marketers and bribe-takers still remain, but no new assets are being generated because the blood in the form of cash required has been sucked out.

The ubiquitous nature of Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 notes had ensured that hawala operators and currency providers of black economy had amassed massive amounts of cash to supply as and when required (for e.g., paying crores of rupees of bribe tomorrow).

The black economy in India was extremely well-greased. This grease has been removed completely in the short term. Amassing the stack to similar levels in the era of ATM withdrawal limits will surely take a much longer time. Perhaps, some leakages could occur through bankers, but even then the level of grease as provided by old Rs 500 or Rs 1,000 notes wouldn't exist for some time to come.

And all this is without any further steps taken by the government. This same situation is also playing out for fake-currency and terror networks. Look at the case of Kashmir or Naxals or weapons purchase -- all these are down to zero.

White economy, including cash-based white economy, would have the credit cushion for this currency loss. Credit and working capital cycle will be expanding throughout the economy to cover for the currency loss. In fact, even you will participate in this credit expansion if you take credit from your kirana shop in the short term till you get cash. He in turn will take credit from the distributor, who would take it from the companies and so on, riding the lack of currency notes.

This is the reason why food is still reaching your plate, even though 86 per cent of money has been taken out of the economy in one go, otherwise a stuff of nightmare for traditional economists.

Indeed, except for the urban poor, who have the most difficulty in assessing credit, this might explain the absence of large-scale anger even after 50 days of cash crunch. In fact, a good part of rural India spends much of their year in credit. Lack of money is not really that much of a change for them.

Now, this is not to say that the white economy has not suffered or will not suffer at all. The initial adjustment period, remonetisation to facilitate last-mile cash activity and so on -- all of this will have an effect for a couple of months. There would be a deceleration of growth for sure, and the government should take every possible measure to complete remonetisation. But this is no catastrophe. Credit is deeply ingrained in the Indian economy, from big firms buying large assets to kirana shops and village vegetable vendors. This, combined with the government’s digital push, should provide enough cover for transition to new notes.

Thankfully, the economy has already reached around 4 per cent of remonetisation, a level at which the whole economy of Brazil runs. The black economy, on the other hand, will be reeling under a severe crisis for some time to come. This crushing of black economy will happen despite a major chunk of old currency notes coming back to the banks, as black economy requires cash in hand to function; cash in the bank is of no use.

Apart from crushing the black economy, demonetisation has more good news for the white economy in the medium-to-long term. The major one, arguably as important if not more than black money destruction, is the swelling of bank deposits. India had a currency note circulation of around 12 per cent of GDP prior to demonetisation. It is expected that between Rs 1-2 trillion of old notes will not come back to the banks, and will be destroyed. This in itself should lower the currency circulation in the economy by 1-2 per cent of GDP. But this is not the whole story. Cash that has once returned to the banks will have a lesser propensity to come back in circulation, and this should lead to a 1-2 per cent additional decrease in circulation.

In the end, demonetisation can lead to a final note circulation figure between 8-10 per cent of total GDP. This lowering of money circulation by 2-4 per cent of GDP will be added to the deposit base of banks. Since this is a cost-based deposit and banks have to give interest on it, they would really like to lend this money as soon as possible, generating new credit. Remember the importance of credit; it plays here again. This credit, generated in multiplier to the increased deposit base, can be a big boost to the economy. And if this lending is used in a targeted way (‘To Reap What You Lend’, 23 December, the Economic Times), it’s an icing on the cake for economic growth.

It will take some time for the demonetisation dust to settle down before lending can happen. So in the next couple of quarters, we are likely to see low growth figures and economy decelerating. This would be especially true for consumer-based industries, where purchases are largely in cash. But this should drastically change once lending starts to happen. Fuelled by this credit growth, the white economy should not only grow organically (new infrastructure, roads and so on), but will also rise to capture the space vacated by black economy. There is a fair chance we might end up with 10+ per cent growth, highest on record, by the end of next year. For this to happen, the key numbers to watch out for going forward - for economists as well as the government - would be the final money circulation figure and the monthly credit growth.

From the looks of it, it would seem that Prime Minister Modi is better versed in Minsky than traditional economists. Not very surprising; the Indian trader community has had a fully functioning credit market since ages, and endogenous money is in their blood. In fact, among the oldest of credit tablets -- the ones that later emerged as money -- have been found in India. Some, a small silver bar punch-marked with official symbols of a kingdom based in Takshila, date back to a time as old as 540 BCE
rahulm
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by rahulm »

Tried installing BHIM on my android but got a message that the app isn't available in my country. I changed my address and country to India in payments.google.com, cleared playstore cache of all data and tried again. No luck.

Can't understand why the app is not available across the world. What goes of GOI's father ?

Any help for me who is lost in this crappy regional settings settings wilderness. The inmates are truly running the app asylum
mnag
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by mnag »

rahulm wrote:Tried installing BHIM on my android but got a message that the app isn't available in my country. I changed my address and country to India in payments.google.com, cleared playstore cache of all data and tried again. No luck.

Can't understand why the app is not available across the world. What goes of GOI's father ?

Any help for me who is lost in this crappy regional settings settings wilderness. The inmates are truly running the app asylum
I ran into similar issue and a Google play support guy resolved it. It goes by the billing address of credit card on Google pay itseems. I had to change to an Indian card and it worked
naruto
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by naruto »

Lilo wrote::P
BHIM app is rocking .
Coached my mom over phone on how to set it up initially - simple as peas .
She sent me a test payment of 10 Rs just like that .
I sent her a 10 Rs back to complete the process.
I am so excited to use it, but alas not available in App store. 2 months since DeMo, still no UPI app in App store.
Marten
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Marten »

rahulm wrote:Tried installing BHIM on my android but got a message that the app isn't available in my country. I changed my address and country to India in payments.google.com, cleared playstore cache of all data and tried again. No luck.

Can't understand why the app is not available across the world. What goes of GOI's father ?

Any help for me who is lost in this crappy regional settings settings wilderness. The inmates are truly running the app asylum
Set up a pockets account and you can set up the card with your local Indian address. That way, you get a ready Indian issued Visa card that can be connected to other wallets as well. I'm not doing this, but it worked for a few friends.

Folks who want to use Uber / PayTM from abroad, AND if you do not have an Indian debit card (OR if you want to protect that card from misuse), please try this Pockets option (NOT iMobile which is for ICICI Customers) and then report back on your experience.
PS: This is the Bhim App Twitter handle: https://twitter.com/NPCI_BHIM
And this is the official download link Google Play store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... pci.upiapp
pankajs
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

UlanBatori wrote:Ppl here extol the virtues of apps that are directly tied into bank accounts, vs. the humble "wallets" where you put money in from the bank account, but then there is no tie to the bank account.
Saar the wallet I have installed in from a bank and is tied to my account but it does ask for OTP for each transfer and sends out a SMS alert as a follow up.

I have no experience with what you call the "humble wallets" but wouldn't they too store you Card/Bank details on the phone or their servers but displayed on the phone? Now if that is the case and the phone is compromised/lost it would impact both kind of wallets.
Last edited by pankajs on 31 Dec 2016 12:37, edited 1 time in total.
Subdas
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Subdas »

demo has hurt the WHOLE sell side rather than the buy side. People who used to selling their bulk goods and services for cash are facing the music. Some bulk sellers like farmers need to switch to net banking etc and will happen over a period of time and GOI has no control here. Some bulk sellers like daily labours working in labor intensive business need to demand wages in bank accounts and GOI is already bringing in law for this. So over all, political back lash will come from these BULK sellers and I hope they are a minority in the voting system.
Last edited by Subdas on 31 Dec 2016 12:40, edited 1 time in total.
Marten
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Marten »

rahulm, why should BHIM support banks that are not based in India? Imagine the number of interfaces that have to be supported. It is impractical and not required when folks who want to spend in Rupees should have either an Indian bank account or a manner in which to transfer their foreign funds into a local account with their foreign branch.
pankajs
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

^
One way to allow connect to foreign banks is to allow Cards as a source of funds. That way the 5-6 interfaces for the most used cards in the world will cover most of the foreign travelers.
chetak
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by chetak »

NRIs can deposit old notes till 30 June, says ordinance
Friday, Dec 30 2016

New Delhi: On the day that the deadline for depositing demonetized notes in bank accounts expired, President Pranab Mukherjee approved an ordinance allowing more time for non-resident Indians to deposit their old notes and imposing stiff fines on residents holding or trading in demonetized currency.

The details of the ordinance released by the finance ministry reveal that non-resident Indians (NRIs) can deposit such notes, up to a maximum of Rs25,000, till 30 June.

The same limit will apply to resident Indians who were abroad between 8 November and 30 December, but they will have to turn in the old notes by 31 March at designated offices of the Reserve Bank of India (RBI).

RBI will separately issue details of the declaration and statements required to be furnished along with the demonetized notes at the time of deposit in its branches.

“Any false declaration will invite a fine of Rs50,000 or five times the amount of the face value of the SBNs (specified bank notes) tendered, whichever is higher,” the finance ministry said in a statement.

Limiting the facility to Indians who were not present in the country during the 50-day demonetization period may trigger a controversy. In his 8 November address to the nation, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had promised that even beyond 30 December, people could deposit demonetized notes at specified branches of RBI after submitting a declaration.

The finance ministry said once the deposit period gets over, the liabilities of RBI and the guarantee of the central government towards SBNs will stand extinguished.

More news on Demonetisation

After this period, holding, transferring and receiving such notes will attract a fine of Rs10,000 or five times the value of the notes, whichever is higher.

The Specified Bank Notes (Cessation of Liabilities) Ordinance, 2016 is a follow-up to the decision taken by the government to cancel the legal tender character of the existing series of Rs500 and Rs1,000 banknotes on 8 November.

However, it is not clear how RBI will account for the reduction in liability on its books. A senior government official said, “We will have to work out the details”.

“The main objectives of the ordinance are (i) to provide clarity and finality to the liability of the Reserve Bank of India and the government of India for the SBNs; (ii) to provide an opportunity to those persons who were unable to deposit the SBNs within the time provided; and (iii) to declare holding, transferring or receiving SBNs as illegal, with provisions for penalty for contravention of any of the provisions of the ordinance,” the finance ministry statement said.

Modi is expected to announce a slew of incentives in his address to the nation on Saturday.

Asit Ranjan Mishra
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Marten »

pankajs, that's a great point, but it also negates the benefits that are being offered (lowest transaction costs). The whole point is that if Visa/Master/Amex payment systems were not as expensive, they could have been easily used within the country for micro-ATMs and the Bank Mitras as well. Even now, it will be someone else helping most users. One per every two households would be a good start, to be honest.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

While the expense will not go down with the Cards, the convenience factor cannot be ignored especially for foreign visitors. BHIM will have a much wider user base as compared to a card reader if this thing gets pushed properly plus transfer of money between parties.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by rahulm »

Thanks for all who responded.

@marten. Am not expecting BHIM to interface with overseas banks. I have not configured any payment options in google payments.

I want to download the App that's all :) and then use my ICICI NRE to pay and NRO to receive and pay. Might try pockets.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

srinebula wrote:
UlanBatori wrote: A few $1 notes to leave a tip at the usual "free" hotel breakfast.
How do you do this? hand over the notes to your waiter? I sometimes find it hard to tip under these circumstances, as there is no bill collection and the opportunity to hand over a tip seems tricky to find.
Leave it under a suitable paperweight (the box containing sugar packets for instance) on the table. In these hotels (e.g. Choice hotels chain) there is usually only one person as cleaner, water-bottle-refiller etc, so s(he) will get it.
SSharma
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SSharma »

UlanBatori wrote:
srinebula wrote: How do you do this? hand over the notes to your waiter? I sometimes find it hard to tip under these circumstances, as there is no bill collection and the opportunity to hand over a tip seems tricky to find.
Leave it under a suitable paperweight (the box containing sugar packets for instance) on the table. In these hotels (e.g. Choice hotels chain) there is usually only one person as cleaner, water-bottle-refiller etc, so s(he) will get it.
I personally never tip unless the service I received was exceptional.

Why tip for standard service and encourage the owner to pay sub standard wages?

Don't understand this American practice of tipping 10% etc
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by rahulm »

Every waiter and concierge should have QR code tatooed on the wrist or carry a tag. Simply scan and tip.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

pankajs wrote:I have no experience with what you call the "humble wallets" but wouldn't they too store you Card/Bank details on the phone or their servers but displayed on the phone? Now if that is the case and the phone is compromised/lost it would impact both kind of wallets.
Ah! U have come to the right Expert on these deep matters. So take PayTM, which my niece installed on my Android phone (that she selected for me in August, being later model of what she had).

I had to link it to my geemail acct that is reserved for mobilephone. Gave so-so correct naam, bogus DOB (none of their *** business). But it is a bogus DOB that I have used on many other web portals, so I am sure to remember it. First lesson in Internet/faceBook security: Given them bogus data but don't lose track of ur lies. They sent OTP to my phone to confirm, no problem. Totally halal user of PayTM now.

Next step: Got nephew to transfer xxxx,xxxx,xxxxx,xxxxx crore rupees to said PayTM account using HIS ATM card. So again, that needs the ATM card info from him. OTP went to his phone, he put it in, and everyone happy. I now have xxxx,xxxx,xxxxx,xxxxx crore rupees in my PayTM account.

Where is my bank acct info? Nowhere in the system. :mrgreen: Best security: I don't even NEED an account of my own, just a sugar daddy (or nephew) who refills my acct from their ATM card. Total transactions done in 5 mins flat, sitting with feet up. AFAIK, PayTM has no record of exactly where it got the money. Maybe someone can see that if they print the Statement. (hmm!! If someone steals the phone they can send the OTP to themselves, but they don't remember the Secret Code that I used to sign up. (DO I REMEMBER THAT??? :eek: :eek: :shock: ) They also don't know the secret code of the ATM card that my nephew used, though it is conceptually somewhere "in the airwaves". As secure as I can imagine.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Speaking of ungli culture sliding into slavery, it occurs to me that I cannot, say, send flowers to Mandira Bedi or Shrilleen without Explanation and Permission. The transaction will show up on my card account, audited down to the paisa by Supreme HQ. Forget flowers, every penny of that $20 allowance gets audited even in currency form, so no additional slavery due to technology. :eek:
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Why tip for standard service and encourage the owner to pay sub standard wages?
Don't understand this American practice of tipping 10% etc
I agree with the grand principle, but that IS the custom, and I really don't want my orange juice smelling of ammonia. :mrgreen: If you look at my activities in certain quarters, you would appreciate why I can sure use any scraps of Positive Karma.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by manjgu »

i know of a person who tipped only at places he frequented..and he tipped well else wont tip 1 paise also.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by chilarai »

UlanBatori wrote: I had to link it to my geemail acct that is reserved for mobilephone. Gave so-so correct naam, bogus DOB (none of their *** business). But it is a bogus DOB that I have used on many other web portals, so I am sure to remember it. First lesson in Internet/faceBook security: Given them bogus data but don't lose track of ur lies. They sent OTP to my phone to confirm, no problem. Totally halal user of PayTM now.
if you use the same IP address to check your bogus gmail and your real gmail statistically significant number of times , google has already made a connection between the two accounts. not paytm but google definitely knows whos who .
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by EswarPrakash »

UlanBatori wrote:
Where is my bank acct info? Nowhere in the system. :mrgreen: Best security: I don't even NEED an account of my own, just a sugar daddy (or nephew) who refills my acct from their ATM card. Total transactions done in 5 mins flat, sitting with feet up. AFAIK, PayTM has no record of exactly where it got the money. Maybe someone can see that if they print the Statement. (hmm!! If someone steals the phone they can send the OTP to themselves, but they don't remember the Secret Code that I used to sign up. (DO I REMEMBER THAT??? :eek: :eek: :shock: ) They also don't know the secret code of the ATM card that my nephew used, though it is conceptually somewhere "in the airwaves". As secure as I can imagine.
Your IP and your IMEI number is your bank account number. With that your PayTM transaction number, your PayTM account number, your sugar daddy's account number - all of that gets logged for each transaction.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by prahaar »

IP keeps changing depending on the network. IMEI is usually not used for lack of privacy. A suitable hash of that or device ID is used to sign the apps.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SaraLax »

Sicanta wrote:Property Index card: How taxmen will chase benami deals

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 082_1.html
Sources said initially taxmen will go after the individuals who have deposited more than Rs 50 crore since November 1.

In a meeting with I-T officials, CBDT is learnt to have asked senior officials to disseminate the information of its field officers across the country which they have received from various sources. During the meeting, the I-T officials were told to co-ordinate with Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) and Enforcement Directorate (ED) to widen their probe.

So far the tax department over 5,000 notices to various entities including car dealers, charitable trusts to show their account balances and to those who have deposited huge cash in their bank accounts. Recent data shows that over Rs 4,000 crore of undisclosed income has been detected while new notes worth Rs 105 crore have been seized as part of its operations against black money hoarders post demonetisation of two high-value currencies by the government.

Sources said the department had carried out a total of over 1,000 searches and surveys under the provisions of I-T act. These are mainly on bullion traders, banks, hawala dealers, money operators etc.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Neshant »

Viv S wrote: Its an extremely naive if not downright silly notion to believe that the state ever had anything less than absolute control over the monetary system.
I'm not arguing for cash. I'm arguing against a few at the top dictating what the monetary system should be.
That being said, cash at least prevents the imposition of negative interest rates.
It also provides some level of privacy and thus financial & personal freedom - which the few at the top intend to remove.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SaraLax »

UlanBatori wrote: So take PayTM, which my niece installed on my Android phone (that she selected for me in August, being later model of what she had).

I had to link it to my geemail acct that is reserved for mobilephone. Gave so-so correct naam, bogus DOB (none of their *** business). But it is a bogus DOB that I have used on many other web portals, so I am sure to remember it. First lesson in Internet/faceBook security: Given them bogus data but don't lose track of ur lies. They sent OTP to my phone to confirm, no problem. Totally halal user of PayTM now.

Next step: Got nephew to transfer xxxx,xxxx,xxxxx,xxxxx crore rupees to said PayTM account using HIS ATM card. So again, that needs the ATM card info from him. OTP went to his phone, he put it in, and everyone happy. I now have xxxx,xxxx,xxxxx,xxxxx crore rupees in my PayTM account.
Saar - You need to please remove that RBI Offending XXXX,XXXX,XXXX,XXXX Crore Rupees dialogue portion in your above narrative.

In a PayTM wallet you cannot store more than 1 Lakh INR at any point of time and that too only if you are a KYC ready person (i guess this is because PayTM works as a Payment Bank & it obtained this specific license from the RBI). Now .. i guess you know what KYC means .. everything from your proper DOB to proper PAN Card and various Identification particulars need to be provided before you become KYC ready !.

Now If you are a Non-KYC person, PayTM will not allow you to keep more than 20000 INR in your electronic wallet and also you cannot spend more than 20000 INR per Month.

If you are using the competitor e-wallet options like Freecharge, Oxigen in India - then the maximum amount of money that you can store at any point of time is again only 20000 INR. There are many limits on how much amount you can transfer from your wallet to your actual bank amount per transaction, per day limit and per month limit even !!!.
These competitors of PayTM don't have the Payment Banks License that allows PayTM to permit upto 100000 INR money storage in their e-wallet.

BTW - Airtel Money and Vodafone's MPesa also have Payment Bank License from RBI and hence these guys can also launch their e-wallet & e-money-transaction services where they can compete with PayTM and even the High-On-Fin-Tech Banks like ICICI, Kotak & others. Airtel is already testing their beta versions of payment banks based e-wallets in certain regions of India.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

UlanBatori wrote:Where is my bank acct info? Nowhere in the system. :mrgreen: Best security: I don't even NEED an account of my own, just a sugar daddy (or nephew) who refills my acct from their ATM card. Total transactions done in 5 mins flat, sitting with feet up. AFAIK, PayTM has no record of exactly where it got the money. Maybe someone can see that if they print the Statement. (hmm!! If someone steals the phone they can send the OTP to themselves, but they don't remember the Secret Code that I used to sign up. (DO I REMEMBER THAT??? :eek: :eek: :shock: ) They also don't know the secret code of the ATM card that my nephew used, though it is conceptually somewhere "in the airwaves". As secure as I can imagine.
The fact is that someone in the chain has to get money into the PayTM system and at that point the Bank/Card will be linked/exposed as with Bank owned wallet.

Even with the Bank wallet that I am using you can create unlinked account, IICR. You case is special in that his account was seeded with money by one of your relative but in majority of the case (>90%) it will have to be self seeded. There is no escaping that bank/card info will be exposed in all such cases via the phone/wallet.

My simple point is that there is no escaping the risk of a phone based wallet to hacking/e-fraud both for bank *owned* wallet or independent wallet. The risk is about the same.
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