Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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shiv
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

Rishi Verma wrote: (usually three separate teams who don't know each other are formed to allow the simulation)
Please call me out if this is not information sourced from America (where they know how to drive properly).

To me it looks like an example of copy-pasting of the abundant American information available online onto Indian requirements.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Rishi Verma »

shiv wrote:
Rishi Verma wrote: (usually three separate teams who don't know each other are formed to allow the simulation)
Please call me out if this is not information sourced from America (where they know how to drive properly).

To me it looks like an example of copy-pasting of the abundant American information available online onto Indian requirements.
Well you are trolling ShivJi but thank you because driving lessons are also available online but we don't follow it.

Since the driving comment is causing major butt hurt, just like butterfly (by its behavior pattern) is an indicator species to show environmental damage, turtle behavior can indicate health of oceans, driving pattern indicates the decay in the country's potential.

/OT and last on this from me.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by prasannasimha »

^^^ We will indeed never know the true pogee but can get an Idea knowing speed and geometry about a possible value - as I said the apogee coud easily be 2027 Kms but may be made less by bleeding off energy depressed inefficient trajectories etc. They probably did not want monitoring gagencies to see the fuze burst so purposely declared one site but "touched down" at another site within the NOTAM area but within the first rectangle/Polygon.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by KBDagha »

Just in: India's 4,000-km range Agni-IV ballistic missile test-fired. Source: Livefist
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by KBDagha »

Almost official source: :rotfl:
Hemant Rout
@DRDO_India successfully test fires nuke capable Agni-IV #missile having a strike range of 4000 km off #Odisha coast.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by kurup »

^^^^ NAVAREA Warning issued for this test was for maximum 2000km .

So they must have tested A4 for a reduced range .
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by SSridhar »

prasannasimha
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prasannasimha

Post by prasannasimha »

Why do I think these are all high apogee lobs being tested?
:D
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by AdityaM »

^ high apogee implies what to make it worth a smiley face?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by sum »

KBDagha wrote:Almost official source: :rotfl:
Hemant Rout
@DRDO_India successfully test fires nuke capable Agni-IV #missile having a strike range of 4000 km off #Odisha coast.
Pretty much confirms all went well with not even any niggle else would have made it to the tweet/article :lol:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Aarvee »

Would higher apogee mean higher terminal velocity as well?
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Re: prasannasimha

Post by JayS »

prasannasimha wrote:Why do I think these are all high apogee lobs being tested?
:D
Showing off some LEO ASAT capability haan ji..?? :twisted:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Supratik »

What is the military significance, if any, of lobbing a strategic missile?
shiv
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

Rishi Verma wrote: Since the driving comment is causing major butt hurt,
Being butt hurt by specious logic would be natural for an Indian bum like me -but this "backward" status enables me to detect and call out bullshit when I see it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Rishi Verma »

^^ShivJi, I don't think you are a bum. And I don't or have ever lived in USA. Peace.
Supratik wrote:What is the military significance, if any, of lobbing a strategic missile?
It's likely they are testing satellite-borne weapons. A perfect loitering nuke.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

^^ deployment of nukular weapons into orbital platforms is banned by some treaty - atleast one paper and I dont know if india ever signed it - not that the chinese would care for toilet paper treaties if they got a chance or need to do it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by jayasimha »

PIB Link of Agni-IV
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=156070
Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
02-January-2017 17:44 IST
Successful Flight Test of Agni – IV

Agni-IV, the Long Range Surface to Surface Ballistic Missile with a range of 4,000 kms was successfully flight tested, once again proving the reliability and efficacy of the weapon system.

The Missile was launched from Dr. Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha at 1200 hrs. today. All the radars, tracking systems and Range Stations have tracked and monitored the flight performance. All the mission objectives have been successfully met.
NW/NAo/DM/RAJ
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Scuse the question but with the weight of agni 3 being brought down by half what is the essential difference between agni 3 and agni 4?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by chetak »

Deterrence Against the Dragon: Why Agni’s Arc Worries China
Deterrence Against The Dragon: Why Agni’s Arc Worries China

Rakesh Krishnan Simha - Jan 01, 2017,

SNAPSHOT
The Agni-V test has set off Beijing’s deepest insecurities of being encircled, resulting in the dragon issuing petulant statements not befitting a country of its size and strength.
Without firing a shot in anger, India clearly has won the battle of the mind.

The shrill, disjointed and illogical rants emanating from Beijing after the fourth successful test of the Agni-V missile is an adequate proof that nothing succeeds like deterrence. By developing a missile designed solely for raining down nuclear warheads at the Han heartland, India has effectively neutralised the Chinese nuclear threat.

Deterrence is the threat of massive retaliation in order to prevent an enemy attack. It is a fundamental principle for India, which has declared a “no first use” policy on nuclear weapons – and by extension ballistic missiles. The deterrence provided by the 5,500 km Agni-V will force Beijing to abandon attack and remain in a state of status quo or paralysis.

The missile was cold launched from a hermetically sealed canister mounted on a tractor-erector-launcher (TEL). “Launch from a canister integrated with a TEL enables launch in minutes as compared with a silo – or open – launch. It also has advantages of higher reliability, longer shelf life, less maintenance and enhanced mobility,” says the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO).

A mobile system will allow India to keep the Agni-Vs constantly moving along its road network, thereby keeping the enemy guessing all the time. Throw in several dozen dummy canisters and TELs, and you add more uncertainty about the exact whereabouts of the real missiles.

A road mobile inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) force makes it virtually impossible for the enemy to hit all of India’s nuclear missiles in a first strike scenario. This greatly enhances the country’s land-based nuclear arsenal's deterrence factor. Just the threat of a second strike ability guarantees deterrence.

China Faces Agni Pareeksha

Indians have lived under the shadow of the Chinese nuclear arsenal for more than five decades. Now the Chinese will know how it feels to have their cities in the Agni’s arc. Once the road mobile Agni-V is deployed – or rather scattered in locations known only to India’s strategic forces command – China will be sandwiched between two well-armed and adversarial nuclear powers.

The US has around 7,100 atomic warheads deployed on several hundred ICBMs, submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs), land attack cruise missiles and strategic aviation. Against this formidable arsenal, the Chinese have an estimated 260 warheads on 75 to 100 silo-based and road mobile ICBMs. The status of the Chinese SLBM force is hazy, but it can deploy no more than 24 missiles and has never conducted a deterrence patrol, which is essential for a credible sea-based nuclear force.

Now imagine upstart India with approximately 100 nuclear warheads and no ICBMs suddenly embarking on a massive ballistic missile build-up aimed at China. India’s rise could be similar to Russia’s. After the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, a chastened Moscow had launched an unprecedented military expansion to achieve parity with the US. By the year 1969, it had overtaken the US in nearly all areas of nuclear delivery, especially silo-based and road mobile ICBMs. Similarly, India’s growing economy will allow it to quickly narrow down the gap with China.

In fact, India doesn’t have to spend recklessly like the Soviet Union. At the peak of the Cold War in the mid 1980s, Russia had 40,000 nuclear warheads and thousands of missiles. The US had over 25,000 warheads. Against such large megaton capabilities, the Chinese had between 20 and 70 ICBMs. If such a puny number of missiles gave China deterrence capability against the US and Russia, then even fewer Agnis aimed at downtown Beijing and Shanghai will do the same for India vis-à-vis China.

The Chinese, in whose strategic reckoning India has rarely caused more than a ripple, are no doubt discombobulated by this new threat from across the Himalayas. The state-controlled media has denounced India for deliberately testing the missile in a flat trajectory to suppress its range in order not to upset Europe and the US. The Chinese are certain the Agni-V has a range of 8,000 km rather than 5,500 km as claimed by India. While this allegation may or may not be correct, what is more likely is that China is clearly alarmed at discovering a missile with its name on it.

Road rage

Apart from the envy factor – the Chinese have had little success with their similar Dongfeng-31A launcher – India’s new mobile missile complicates Chinese nuclear strategy. Currently, China keeps most of its ICBMs in silos while the nuclear warheads are in storage. This strategy conveys a message to the US: “Yes we are puny but we can cause unacceptable damage if you attack us.”

The Chinese are aware of the dangers of entering a wasteful missile race with the US and are therefore keen not to set off alarm bells in the Pentagon. “Overall, China appears to be playing the numbers game very cautiously to consciously avoid a missile race. It has learnt its lesson from the Soviet experience,” says nuclear security expert Manpreet Sethi of the Centre for Air Power Studies in a paper titled ‘China’s Ballistic Missile Capability and India’s Preparedness’.

This is where the Agni-V plays spoiler. Since road or rail mobile missiles are deployed far from nuclear storage depots, they must be mated with warheads to be able to pose a credible deterrence. So in the future we could have a situation where a large number of ready to fire Indian missiles are aimed at China without Beijing having a corresponding ability. The relentless Indian missile development therefore places Beijing in a strategic straightjacket.

“Just as China sows doubt in the US mind that its nuclear forces are invulnerable to a disarming first strike, and willing and capable of mounting a punishing second strike, India too has to underline that a nuclear attack by China would result in assured retaliation to cause unacceptable damage,” says Sethi.

The recent stridency in China’s tone towards India is due to New Delhi’s relentless ballistic missile development programme that threatens to upset the strategic balance currently in Beijing’s favour – but certainly not for long. In this backdrop, the Agni-V is a true gamechanger.

According to the fifth century Chinese strategist Sun Tzu, the ideal victory is that which is won without actual fighting – that is by guile or persuasive diplomacy. The Agni-V test has set off Beijing’s deepest insecurities of being encircled, resulting in the dragon issuing petulant statements not befitting a country of its size and strength. Without firing a shot in anger, India clearly has won the battle of the mind̻.



Rakesh Krishnan Simha
Rakesh Krishnan Simha is a New Zealand-based journalist and writes on defence and foreign affairs for Russia Beyond the Headlines, a global media project of Moscow-based Rossiyskaya Gazeta. He is on the advisory board of Europe-based Modern Diplomacy.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by GShankar »

^^ we need to create a fund to publish more such articles.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gerard »

What exactly do these articles achieve?

Far better IMHO to downplay any talk of potential targets.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by nits »

Is Agni IV also canister based ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Scuse the question but with the weight of agni 3 being brought down by half what is the essential difference between agni 3 and agni 4?
A3 is fat and more powerful. ..a heavier payload
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gagan »

Doesn't a high loft translate to a much higher reentry velocity?
Cheen's strategic targets are closer than the full range of these missiles A4 and A5

For example I will draw the guru's attention to the 'valley of tunnels' in Mainland China
The direction of those bunkers on the hill slope indicates fear of India.
The place is located a cosy 1000Kms from India

24°32'15.57"N 102°34'43.10"E

I count 35 bunkers, with DF-21s in many of them
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gagan »

How about like 30-40 payloads on a single missile, each of then independently targeted to take out each of these tunnels, with one heavy missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by JTull »

Gagan wrote:Doesn't a high loft translate to a much higher reentry velocity?
Cheen's strategic targets are closer than the full range of these missiles A4 and A5

For example I will draw the guru's attention to the 'valley of tunnels' in Mainland China
The direction of those bunkers on the hill slope indicates fear of India.
The place is located a cosy 1000Kms from India

24°32'15.57"N 102°34'43.10"E

I count 35 bunkers, with DF-21s in many of them
I see big subsidence above 4-5 of those entrances.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gyan »

I think Agni-V has 6 MIRVs with 8000km range
Agni-III has 3 warheads with 8000km range

Agni IV has 1 MIRV with 5000km range
Agni II has 1 warhead with 3500km range
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by rgosain »

Actually the lofted and depressed tests would be to calibrate the radars and command infrastructure of the early warning and BMD infrastructure to detect incoming warheads at extreme velocities and trajectories. It also provides a training environment for those manning such systems in the future
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gagan »

The only way to take out targets like this deep in enemy territory is to target them with missiles. Airstrikes won't work - too little, to much loss to own forces.
Greater strength of quick reaction missile forces is the only way to go for the future.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Prasad »

Ripe target for sea launched cruise missiles. Its around 2000m from the middle of the bay of bengal.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gagan »

Wouldn't it more cost effective from one big bad ballistic missile with 30 odd deep penetrating mirvs?
Flatten the whole valley with one missile strike

ABM development trends in the future will mean that subsonic cruise missiles will only sparingly get through. MARVs are the only things that'll get through with good consistancy
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shravanp »

No video of either A5 or recent A4. Total atyachaar.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gagan »

Actually DRDO needs to stop the 1-3-7 MIRV game
That is just fine for city busting

Instead I propose 30 + HE / SubKT N tipped MARVs to take out such targets.

India does not need higher ranges for now. Just more effective targeting, and higher number of warheads on one missile.

The payoffs can be immense. The thing will actually be war/skirmish usable! And its deterrance value will be supreme, just because of this fact!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Bheeshma »

Wouldn't Shaurya or Brahmos-2 (range permitting) be ideal to take these out? Why waste a BM? Shaurya has enough range 1200-1800 Km and is fast enough that it won't be intercepted. :?:

Don't fully agree with gagnulla. A-6 better be our own SS-18 SATAN type, 20 m long , 2.0 m wide and 10-20 100 KT warheads with range of 10-13 Km. A sub KT nuke will still be considered nuke, just like Indian doctrine.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karthik S »

Like any other missile in the series, the range will 1000 KM more than the previous version. They'll say the A-6 range is "more" than 6000 KM.
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prasannasimha

Post by prasannasimha »

High loft has potential ASAT role. The question is what can it take out. Also high loft is associated with a higher rentry speed validating thermal protection.
One other thing is the reduced testing range may have been to conceal MIRV testing though Agni 4 and 5 seem to have too sharp a nose for it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

Gagan, The trajectory is second order elliptic curve. So it has two solutions high loft or low loft. Same terminal velocity.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gagan »

They fly off sensor planes off Australia to monitor every ballistic missile test
The interest in A5 must be immense, with the cheenis and the west both deploying both air and space based assets to monitor flight profile, impact area(actually there is no impact since they always do an airburst at a certain altitude)

The NAVTARA warning by DRDO helpa immensely
;)
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by SSridhar »

Agni-IV test a ‘grand success’ - T.S.Subramanian, The Hindu
New Year 2017 began on a happy note for the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) with the flight-testing of India’s long-range, strategic ballistic missile, Agni-IV, turning out to be a “grand success” on Monday.

The SFC, which is entrusted with the launching of nuclear weapon delivery systems, fired the missile around 12 noon from a road-mobile launcher positioned on the Abdul Kalam Island, off Damra village on the Odisha coast. The two-stage, surface-to-surface Agni-IV can carry a nuclear warhead weighing one tonne over a distance of more than 4,000 km. But on Monday, the SFC fired it for a range of about 3,100 km only, informed sources said. The missile impacted in the Indian Ocean.

Agni-IV had been tested twice earlier for ranges between 3,000 and 3,500 km instead of its full range of more than 4,000 km. The DRDO conceived, designed and developed the Agni-IV.

Lesser range

Asked why the missile is repeatedly tested for a range that is much lesser than it is capable of travelling, sources said the SFC had its “own requirements and they will fire the missile according to the requirements.”

Besides, the SFC would like to test Agni-IV for its capability. “The SFC has its programme in testing the missile for a lesser range. They are sticking to it,” the sources said.


Normal explosives

On Monday, the missile carried “normal explosives to test the sequence of the flight,” the sources added. Radars and range systems tracked it.

The latest victory, coming in the wake of the spectacular success of the Agni-V mission on December 26, 2016, confirmed India’s nuclear deterrence capability for, both the missiles can cover the entire area on the other side of the border. Agni-V can carry a nuclear warhead weighing 1.5 tonnes over a distance of 5,000 km and plus.

Sixth success

Agni-IV has already been deployed by the Army. It is 20 metres long and weighs 17 tonnes. Solid propellants power its two stages. It had been flight-tested five times earlier — in 2011, 2012, twice in 2014 and in 2015. All the five missions were successful. This is the sixth success in a row.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by sanjaykumar »

The word is conventional not normal. India media and others need to learn to be precise.
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