Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

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Deans
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Deans »

UlanBatori wrote:"The media today carried a report that rural skills were declining alarmingly thanks to the NREGA "dole" "

Every cloud has a silver lining to generate lightning strikes. Because of NREGA whatever that is, plus the generosity of the late 'Thaa', I hear from ppl with 'grassroots' knowledge that "men" (OK, something human-looking with mijjiles) in TN have plenty of time, liquor and energy to help the women earn the extra 6000. :mrgreen:

They say that Skill Training Initiatives etc are dead in the water because of the above.
I believe NREGA is a good idea but so far poorly executed, because of leakages (dummy workers) and the poor quality of work done. However, it is not a dole. It is fairly hard labour for (in most states) less than the daily min wage. That is why only the really needs access the scheme - excluding fake workers who are slowly being eliminated thanks to aadhar and payments directly into bank accounts.
For a landless labourer who would literally starve when there is no demand for agricultural work, the 100 days of NREGA work can be a life saver. Its the single biggest contributor to bringing people out of absolute poverty and reducing rural migration.
Ensuring that the work done is appropriate and of the right quality is an evolving process and the Indian state eventually reaches a reasonable level of efficiency. For e.g. Govt's have started focussing on local micro irrigation and water conservation schemes and rural roads, where the workers have a direct stake in the quality and completion of work. Wages are now paid in 48 hours direct into bank accounts rather than after 1 month and after middlemen getting their cut.
SBajwa
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SBajwa »

by Shiv
There are so many ways of slicing the pie when you have extra, untaxed cash available to you. For example - I buy a car in white because that can be shown as a professional expense. Doctors need a car as part of their need to travel to work. But then you use the car for a pleasure trip around India using black cash that you have for petrol and hotel and resort expenses along the way.
People around the world do that. If you use your house to see patients you can also claim a part of your house on your tax return as business expense., same with telephone (if patient call you), same with your internet,computers, paper, ink, electricity, water you can also claim newspapers/magazine expense for patients waiting, tea/coffee, advertising, etc.

Here in USA., If you use your car for your business you must keep a log of daily miles driven for business/personal., cars get depreciated over time (5-6 years I think).

Tax authorities around the world know that people will try to maximize their cash and people do., as long as that "extra cash" is below 0-5% of the total economy.
JohnTitor
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by JohnTitor »

rahulm wrote:
True.. I transit thru Kempegowda (to from Massaland) every other month and can vouch for it. Feels good
Are they still checking the checker ? I mean, do they have an immigration officer after the immigration officer at the immigration counter to check if the immigration officer at the counter has stamped your passport ?
Actually there is a checker who checks that the immigration officer has stamped your passport - this guy waits behind the desks. After this, there is another guy who stands near the exit (after you collect your baggage) who checks the baggage tag. Talk about creating work for the sake of it.
Primus
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Primus »

JohnTitor wrote:
rahulm wrote:
Are they still checking the checker ? I mean, do they have an immigration officer after the immigration officer at the immigration counter to check if the immigration officer at the counter has stamped your passport ?
Actually there is a checker who checks that the immigration officer has stamped your passport - this guy waits behind the desks. After this, there is another guy who stands near the exit (after you collect your baggage) who checks the baggage tag. Talk about creating work for the sake of it.
Yes, I saw that at Hyd airport this time. Funny, but in all my trips to Delhi my carry-on or checked baggage was never x-rayed after landing, but at both Bangalore and Hyd they did it.

I think it is a great idea to check tags on your baggage against the ones in your possession. Far too easy for somebody to walk off with someone else's bag - intentionally or otherwise. Yes, it holds things up, but saves passengers a lot of grief in the end.
UlanBatori
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

The TN experience is from ground level: may not be NREGA at all, apparently the CM's largesse provided "50 rupees per day + booze" or maybe 50 rupees which was enough to buy booze and a couple of meals, so many men (I think this is in tribal areas) just lie about.

Come to think of if, I wonder if NREGA can be tapped to induce ppl to go take skill development courses. VERY serious pooch, I realize OT here but could u suggest a different place to discuss that?

One datum: I know of one Bengali migrant laborer in Malloostan, who is now the only person I know with hands-on, successful experience of installing and maintaining both a 10kg biogas converter AND a 280W solar rooftop PV system. OK, on the latter his task was to get up on the roof and twist and connect the right wires to the right places.

Prototype of the Multi-technology skilled installer/maintainer for the grassroots energy independence movement.

Remarked with wonder at the end of the day:
Do you know that the ppl who came to build (aluminum shelving in the shop) used power drills and screwdrivers that they charged from this same system?
No one else was interested enough to notice that, and the implication of that for rural non-ag employment and skills development. While his immediate employer DOES have a power DC screwdriver/small drill that I bought them, it's sitting in a glass case AFAIK. OK, that's partly because I said hold that, we will use it when we need it.

So this young man has formal education only to 6th grade. Can read and write Bengali, can converse in Hindi, and gets along fine in Malloostan earning a hard living. Yes, he has a bank account, he gets paid electronically (except for petty cash expenses etc), sends money electronically to his family in Bengal. Sharper than most engg. college students I see these days in desh. At least he's not faux-genuflecting/obeisant/head-nodding lotus eater, this is a proud Indian.

Think about that. This is the new Indian Migrant Worker. We are the Arabs, Malays, Fijians, UK/US-stanis, the lazy fat lieabouts who can't do what these people do, but sit around looking down our snotty noses at him.

So how do we get him a diploma? I believe that needs an SSLC, and no one here seems in the least interested in finding out how such a high-school equivalency can be obtained without forcing this wage-earner to go waste 4 years in useless schools taught by people who can't do a tenth of what he has learned to do. I think that's a barrier that needs to be shattered along with whoever is sitting on it.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Singha »

rather than ITIs I feel all the rural & small town high schools already in place can be upgraded with new workshops and materials countrywide to teach carpentry, electricity, plumbing, metalworking, machining, car repair, painting, tailoring for free to those students so willing and give the necessary diploma with the 12th exam - this will also improve retention rate from 10th dropout to 12th pass. this might prepare them better for a eventual migration to organized manufacturing jobs which have better benefits ( health insurance, gratuity, PF, meals, sometimes transport) and pay than service sector jobs like security guard/waiters etc.

the wide industrial base of TN must be silently fed by such vocational training - not widely known and probably copied only haphazardly .... a uniform tight hawk eyed Namoish plan is needed for all states.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by A_Gupta »

Since most of this doesn't have anything to do with currency demonetization or how the future course of the Indian economy is affected by demonetization, is it time to either close this thread, or move the not-relevant posts to some other thread?
Yagnasri
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Yagnasri »

Now 500s are available quite widely, and that seems to have solved a lot of problems. I paid money to shop fellow, and he promptly charged 2% as I paid by Card. This has to go. Banks are not considering the savings in customers not withdrawing the cash to make payments both regarding infra needed to allow such withdrawals like ATMs, branches, etc. and also the reduction of cost of funds. RBI need to step in and ensure e-payments etc are not charged. Then only less cash economy is possible.
Vineetmehta_del
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Vineetmehta_del »

This was planned 2-3 years ago probably by NaMo. Gov is working on multiple fronts to fight black money/corruption.

http://currentaffairs.gktoday.in/income ... 37239.html

Added: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 321806.cms
rahulm
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by rahulm »

Paytm gets UPI support, makes it easier for you to transfer money

The part I found interesting, useful and innovative
all Paytm merchant QR codes will be UPI-interoperable, which means all merchants in the Paytm ecosystem can accept payments from other UPI apps.
We need interoperability. Lots of it.

I want to,use one toll smart card all over India and one NFC Metro pass all over India.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

A_Gupta wrote:Since most of this doesn't have anything to do with currency demonetization or how the future course of the Indian economy is affected by demonetization, is it time to either close this thread, or move the not-relevant posts to some other thread?
My suggestion would be to lock this thread, and only re-open it when the next steps of DeMo is known/visible on the ground. For example, news about IT notices going out, or some news on prosecuting black money hoarders.
Yagnasri wrote:Now 500s are available quite widely, and that seems to have solved a lot of problems. I paid money to shop fellow, and he promptly charged 2% as I paid by Card.
This is all unofficial (or illegal), so RBI cannot do any thing on this. This is just like the "Service Tax" gimmick played by the hoteliers. GoI tells the customers NOT to pay this. The response from the Hotelier association is "then don't bother to come and have food at our restaurant". These kind of cheeky responses comes, because these people know the impracticality of such instructions. Today these chotta motta businessmen know how to make their customers dance to their tunes.
Philip
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Philip »

Is this true? If so then we've sold our souls to the Yanquis,lock,stock and barrel. No wonder the Russians are now looking at Pak in a different light in their Afghan policy.

http://norberthaering.de/en/home/27-ger ... eiterlesen
Norbert Haring...Money and more.

German News A well-kept open secret: Washington is behind India’s brutal experiment of abolishing most cash
A well-kept open secret: Washington is behind India’s brutal experiment of abolishing most cash
01 January 2017 |

In early November, without warning, the Indian government declared the two largest denomination bills invalid, abolishing over 80 percent of circulating cash by value. Amidst all the commotion and outrage this caused, nobody seems to have taken note of the decisive role that Washington played in this. That is surprising, as Washington's role has been disguised only very superficially.

weiterlesen
US-President Barack Obama has declared the strategic partnership with India a priority of his foreign policy. China needs to be reined in. In the context of this partnership, the US government’s development agency USAID has negotiated cooperation agreements with the Indian ministry of finance. One of these has the declared goal to push back the use of cash in favor of digital payments in India and globally.

On November 8, Indian prime minster Narendra Modi announced that the two largest denominations of banknotes could not be used for payments any more with almost immediate effect. Owners could only recoup their value by putting them into a bank account before the short grace period expired at year end, which many people and businesses did not manage to do, due to long lines in front of banks. The amount of cash that banks were allowed to pay out to individual customers was severely restricted. Almost half of Indians have no bank account and many do not even have a bank nearby. The economy is largely cash based. Thus, a severe shortage of cash ensued. Those who suffered the most were the poorest and most vulnerable. They had additional difficulty earning their meager living in the informal sector or paying for essential goods and services like food, medicine or hospitals. Chaos and fraud reigned well into December.

Four weeks earlier

Not even four weeks before this assault on Indians, USAID had announced the establishment of „Catalyst: Inclusive Cashless Payment Partnership“, with the goal of effecting a quantum leap in cashless payment in India. The press statement of October 14 says that Catalyst “marks the next phase of partnership between USAID and Ministry of Finance to facilitate universal financial inclusion”. The statement does not show up in the list of press statements on the website of USAID (anymore?). Not even filtering statements with the word “India” would bring it up. To find it, you seem to have to know it exists, or stumble upon it in a web search. Indeed, this and other statements, which seemed rather boring before, have become a lot more interesting and revealing after November 8.

Reading the statements with hindsight it becomes obvious, that Catalyst and the partnership of USAID and the Indian Ministry of Finance, from which Catalyst originated, are little more than fronts which were used to be able to prepare the assault on all Indians using cash without arousing undue suspicion. Even the name Catalyst sounds a lot more ominous, once you know what happened on November 9.

Catalyst’s Director of Project Incubation is Alok Gupta, who used to be Chief Operating Officer of the World Resources Institute in Washington, which has USAID as one of its main sponsors. He was also an original member of the team that developed Aadhaar, the Big-Brother-like biometric identification system.

According to a report of the Indian Economic Times, USAID has committed to finance Catalyst for three years. Amounts are kept secret.

Badal Malick was Vice President of India's most important online marketplace Snapdeal, before he was appointed as CEO of Catalyst. He commented:

„Catalyst’s mission is to solve multiple coordination problems that have blocked the penetration of digital payments among merchants and low-income consumers. We look forward to creating a sustainable and replicable model. (...) While there has been (...) a concerted push for digital payments by the government, there is still a last mile gap when it comes to merchant acceptance and coordination issues. We want to bring a holistic ecosystem approach to these problems.“

Ten months earlier

The multiple coordination problem and the cash-ecosystem-issue that Malick mentions had been analysed in a report that USAID commissioned in 2015 and presented in January 2016, in the context of the anti-cash partnership with the Indian Ministry of Finance. The press release on this presentation is also not in USAID's list of press statements (anymore?). The title of the study was “Beyond Cash”.

„Merchants, like consumers, are trapped in cash ecosystems, which inhibits their interest” in digital payment it said in the report. Since few traders accept digital payments, few consumers have an interest in it, and since few consumers use digital payments, few traders have an interest in it. Given that banks and payment providers charge fees for equipment to use or even just try out digital payment, a strong external impulse is needed to achieve a level of card penetration that would create mutual interest of both sides in digital payment options.

It turned out in November that the declared “holistic ecosystem approach” to create this impulse consisted in destroying the cash-ecosystem for a limited time and to slowly dry it up later, by limiting the availability of cash from banks for individual customers. Since the assault had to be a surprise to achieve its full catalyst-results, the published Beyond-Cash-Study and the protagonists of Catalyst could not openly describe their plans. They used a clever trick to disguise them and still be able to openly do the necessary preparations, even including expert hearings. They consistently talked of a regional field experiment that they were ostensibly planning.

"The goal is to take one city and increase the digital payments 10x in six to 12 months," said Malick less than four weeks before most cash was abolished in the whole of India. To not be limited in their preparation on one city alone, the Beyond-Cash-report and Catalyst kept talking about a range of regions they were examining, ostensibly in order to later decide which was the best city or region for the field experiment. Only in November did it became clear that the whole of India should be the guinea-pig-region for a global drive to end the reliance on cash. Reading a statement of Ambassador Jonathan Addleton, USAID Mission Director to India, with hindsight, it becomes clear that he stealthily announced that, when he said four weeks earlier:

“India is at the forefront of global efforts to digitize economies and create new economic opportunities that extend to hard-to-reach populations. Catalyst will support these efforts by focusing on the challenge of making everyday purchases cashless."

Veterans of the war on cash in action

Who are the institutions behind this decisive attack on cash? Upon the presentation of the Beyond-Cash-report, USAID declared: “Over 35 key Indian, American and international organizations have partnered with the Ministry of Finance and USAID on this initiative.” On the website catalyst.org one can see that they are mostly IT- and payment service providers who want to make money from digital payments or from the associated data generation on users. Many are veterans of,what a high-ranking official of Deutsche Bundesbank called the “war of interested financial institutions on cash” (in German). They include the Better Than Cash Alliance, the Gates Foundation (Microsoft), Omidyar Network (eBay), the Dell Foundation Mastercard, Visa, Metlife Foundation.

The Better Than Cash Alliance

The Better Than Cash Alliance, which includes USAID as a member, is mentioned first for a reason. It was founded in 2012 to push back cash on a global scale. The secretariat is housed at the United Nations Capital Development Fund (UNCDP) in New York, which might have its reason in the fact that this rather poor small UN-organization was glad to have the Gates-Foundation in one of the two preceding years and the Master-Card-Foundation in the other as its most generous donors.

The members of the Alliance are large US-Institutions which would benefit most from pushing back cash, i.e. credit card companies Mastercard and Visa, and also some US-institutions whose names come up a lot in books on the history of the United States intelligence services, namely Ford Foundation and USAID. A prominent member is also the Gates-Foundation. Omidyar Network of eBay-founder Pierre Omidyar and Citi are important contributors. Almost all of these are individually also partners in the current USAID-India-Initiative to end the reliance on cash in India and beyond. The initiative and the Catalyst-program seem little more than an extended Better Than Cash Alliance, augmented by Indian and Asian organizations with a strong business interest in a much decreased use of cash.

Reserve Bank of India’s IMF-Chicago Boy

The partnership to prepare the temporary banning of most cash in India coincides roughly with the tenure of Raghuram Rajan at the helm of Reserve Bank of India from September 2013 to September 2016. Rajan (53) had been, and is now again, economics professor at the University of Chicago. From 2003 to 2006 he had been Chief Economist of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in Washington. (This is a cv-item he shares with another important warrior against cash, Ken Rogoff.) He is a member of the Group of Thirty, a rather shady organization, where high ranking representatives of the world major commercial financial institutions share their thoughts and plans with the presidents of the most important central banks, behind closed doors and with no minutes taken. It becomes increasingly clear that the Group of Thirty is one of the major coordination centers of the worldwide war on cash. Its membership includes other key warriers like Rogoff, Larry Summers and others.

Raghuram Rajan has ample reason to expect to climb further to the highest rungs in international finance and thus had good reason to play Washington’s game well. He already was a President of the American Finance Association and inaugural recipient of its Fisher-Black-Prize in financial research. He won the handsomely endowed prizes of Infosys for economic research and of Deutsche Bank for financial economics as well as the Financial Times/Goldman Sachs Prize for best economics book. He was declared Indian of the year by NASSCOM and Central Banker of the year by Euromoney and by The Banker. He is considered a possible successor of Christine Lagard at the helm of the IMF, but can certainly also expect to be considered for other top jobs in international finance.

As a Central Bank Governor, Rajan was liked and well respected by the financial sector, but very much disliked by company people from the real (producing) sector, despite his penchant for deregulation and economic reform. The main reason was the restrictive monetary policy he introduced and staunchly defended. After he was viciously criticized from the ranks of the governing party, he declared in June that he would not seek a second term in September. Later he told the New York Times that he had wanted to stay on, but not for a whole term, and that premier Modi would not have that. A former commerce and law Minister, Mr. Swamy, said on the occasion of Rajan’s departure that it would make Indian industrialists happy:

“I certainly wanted him out, and I made it clear to the prime minister, as clear as possible. (…) His audience was essentially Western, and his audience in India was transplanted westernized society. People used to come in delegations to my house to urge me to do something about it.”

A disaster that had to happen

If Rajan was involved in the preparation of this assault to declare most of Indians’ banknotes illegal – and there should be little doubt about that, given his personal and institutional links and the importance of Reserve Bank of India in the provision of cash – he had ample reason to stay in the background. After all, it cannot have surprised anyone closely involved in the matter, that this would result in chaos and extreme hardship, especially for the majority of poor and rural Indians, who were flagged as the supposed beneficiaries of the badly misnamed "financial-inclusion”-drive. USAID and partners had analysed the situation extensively and found in the Beyond-Cash-report that 97% of transactions were done in cash and that only 55% of Indians had a bank account. They also found that even of these bank accounts, "only 29% have been used in the last three months“.

All this was well known and made it a certainty that suddenly abolishing most cash would cause severe and even existential problems to many small traders and producers and to many people in remote regions without banks. When it did, it became obvious, how false the promise of financial inclusion by digitalization of payments and pushing back cash has always been. There simply is no other means of payment that can compete with cash in allowing everybody with such low hurdles to participate in the market economy.

However, for Visa, Mastercard and the other payment service providers, who were not affected by these existential problems of the huddled masses, the assault on cash will most likely turn out a big success, “scaling up” digital payments in the “trial region”. After this chaos and with all the losses that they had to suffer, all business people who can afford it, are likely to make sure they can accept digital payments in the future. And consumers, who are restricted in the amount of cash they can get from banks now, will use opportunities to pay with cards, much to the benefit of Visa, Mastercard and the other members of the extended Better Than Cash Alliance.

Why Washington is waging a global war on cash


The business interests of the US-companies that dominate the gobal IT business and payment systems are an important reason for the zeal of the US-government in its push to reduce cash use worldwide, but it is not the only one and might not be the most important one. Another motive is surveillance power that goes with increased use of digital payment. US-intelligence organizations and IT-companies together can survey all international payments done through banks and can monitor most of the general stream of digital data. Financial data tends to be the most important and valuable.

Even more importantly, the status of the dollar as the worlds currency of reference and the dominance of US companies in international finance provide the US government with tremendous power over all participants in the formal non-cash financial system. It can make everybody conform to American law rather than to their local or international rules. German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung has recently run a chilling story describing how that works (German). Employees of a Geran factoring firm doing completely legal business with Iran were put on a US terror list, which meant that they were shut off most of the financial system and even some logistics companies would not transport their furniture any more. A major German bank was forced to fire several employees upon US request, who had not done anything improper or unlawful.

There are many more such examples. Every internationally active bank can be blackmailed by the US government into following their orders, since revoking their license to do business in the US or in dollar basically amounts to shutting them down. Just think about Deutsche Bank, which had to negotiate with the US treasury for months whether they would have to pay a fne of 14 billion dollars and most likely go broke, or get away with seven billion and survive. If you have the power to bankrupt the largest banks even of large countries, you have power over their governments, too. This power through dominance over the financial system and the associated data is already there. The less cash there is in use, the more extensive and secure it is, as the use of cash is a major avenue for evading this power.

About this blog: This is the English-language section of a weblog, which is mostly in German. If I deem a subject particularly important for an international audience, I either write in English outright, or provide an English translation. There is an E-mail-newsletter that will inform you only of new English language entries. If you would like to subscribe, just click on "keep me informed" on the left. You can unsubscribe easily any time.

German version
Rishi Verma
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Rishi Verma »

^^ Philip is at his old tricks again... The guy is non-stop ranting against India, against Modi, against the west while going gaga over Soviets. ..

Coming back to more important news.

Top Accounting Firms Hired to unearth Black Money
Experts from EY, KPMG and PricewaterhouseCoopers are working with tax officials to examine evidence collected by the department during raids conducted since November 8, when the government declared war on black money by demonetising.Rs 500 and .Rs 1,000 currency notes.
A_Gupta
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by A_Gupta »

What are the outlets available to tourists without bank accounts in Indian banks for changing forex to rupees?
jamwal
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by jamwal »

Hotels, airports, special counters in places like Taj Mahal.
habal
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by habal »

Rishi Verma wrote:^^ Philip is at his old tricks again... The guy is non-stop ranting against India, against Modi, against the west while going gaga over Soviets. ..
& as a langley apologist, you are dead opposed to a 'soviet' apologist hain ? Is that the reason for this angst. Wherever US is remotely mentioned you do have a tendency to pop up and proceed to bash up the messenger.

It's indeed a scary article to be honest. It seems like an economic intelligence kind of journal. The premise is the same old 'heavy investments' via fed to India while Trump reverses China outsourcing story, Modi would have been sold this kool aid on one of his numerous trips to USA to meet his 'best friend Obu'. A double whammy that will cripple China while supposedly uplift India at one go. No thought obviously given to what will happen if reverse comes to pass which could also be a US goal. Cripple India & China together.

Now coming to this specific concept, it may well work but somehow I am reminded of numerous temptations that were sold by devil himself to Christ on Mt Hermon kinda jigs.

another scare mongering type of article to besmirch fair noble intent of demon
https://www.thequint.com/currency-ban/2 ... di-raw-cia

some interesting tidbits about rabinder singh, that icon of langley-led patriotism also found in the artcle
An internal enquiry by the RAW into Singh’s defection revealed that two of his sisters working for USAID were “used” to “approach” him. Singh was found to have clandestinely supplied top secret documents and information about RAW’s operations to the CIA. Singh had fled via Nepal and then Germany to the US.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sicanta »

I request the mods to lock the thread.
habal
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by habal »

& this particular para hurts
It turned out in November that the declared “holistic ecosystem approach” to create this impulse consisted in destroying the cash-ecosystem for a limited time and to slowly dry it up later, by limiting the availability of cash from banks for individual customers. Since the assault had to be a surprise to achieve its full catalyst-results, the published Beyond-Cash-Study and the protagonists of Catalyst could not openly describe their plans. They used a clever trick to disguise them and still be able to openly do the necessary preparations, even including expert hearings. They consistently talked of a regional field experiment that they were ostensibly planning.
seems like an extension of unkil's war on humanity in Syria extendes to India without the ISIS rogues. All straight up unkil's dirty tricks alley. There is a familiar smell to it.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Philipji,

The thing that the German misinfo did not mention is that said USAID Report came out on Jan. 19, 2016, - not "less than 4 weeks before Nov. 8".

Enjoy:

https://www.usaid.gov/india/press-relea ... nomy-india

Posting in full before djinn majik morphs it. Anyway, US Govt does not exert copyright on its emissions:
'BEYOND CASH' IDENTIFIES BARRIERS AND SOLUTIONS TO A DIGITAL, INCLUSIVE ECONOMY IN INDIA
For Immediate Release
Wednesday, January 20, 2016
NEW DELHI – The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) today released a report (link is external) identifying key ways to ensure the success of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's national mission for financial inclusion.

The report, Beyond Cash, highlights the current behaviors and perceptions of digital payments in low-income communities in India, and suggests ideas on how policy makers can accelerate the adoption of digital payments in the country. The study was conducted by strategic advisory firm Dalberg in six locations across four states.

Market data indicate that across India 97 percent of retail transactions are conducted in cash or check. Surprisingly, only 29% of bank accounts in India have been used in the last three months, only 6 percent of merchants accept digital payments, and just over 10 percent of consumers have used a debit card for payments in the last year.

With the launch of the Pradhan Mantri Jan-Dhan Yojana, supported by the Aadhaar scheme, and with over one billion mobile phone connections, India has made remarkable strides toward achieving universal financial inclusion. But despite this tremendous progress, the use of digital payments in the country remains limited.

Digital payments can help consumers and merchants spend their money more safely and securely, save and build credit profiles for lending opportunities unavailable in the informal banking sector, and participate in a growing online economy. According to the World Bank, India could save approximately one percent of its GDP annually by digitizing cash-based subsidies alone.

The Report Beyond Cash found that merchants and consumers who currently use digital payments are highly satisfied with their experience, but interest in digital payments among current non-users is low. Many consumers don’t earn wages or save digitally, or there are few opportunities to use digital payments in their communities. Many merchants are comfortable operating in India’s “cash ecosystem” but are eager for more easy and cheap digital payment options.

The report suggests 10 ideas to drive greater consumer and merchant adoption and use of digital payments. These ideas include:

Create opportunities for consumers to make digital contributions to micro-savings products.
Incentivize current users to deepen use and bring other consumers onboard.
Enable merchants to try digital payments at low or no cost.
Digitize retailer-to-supplier payments.
The research findings are part of an ongoing partnership between the Government of India’s Ministry of Finance and USAID focused on increasing the use of digital payments at "point of sale”, particularly among low-income consumers. Over 35 key Indian, American and international organizations have partnered with the Ministry of Finance and USAID on this initiative. The goal of the partnership is to identify, test, and scale innovative approaches for expanding the use of digital payments at point of sale in order to increase financial inclusion.

For additional information, contact:

Press Officer, U.S. Global Development Lab, U.S. Agency for International Development [email protected]
habal
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by habal »

article refers to this though

https://www.usaid.gov/india/press-relea ... ents-india
Oct 14. 2016

USAID LAUNCHES CATALYST TO DRIVE CASHLESS PAYMENTS IN INDIA
Marks the Next Phase of Partnership between USAID and Ministry of Finance to Facilitate Universal Financial Inclusion
For Immediate Release
Friday, October 14, 2016
Neha Khator
91 11 2419 8000
New Delhi: The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) announced today the launch of a new initiative “Catalyst: Inclusive Cashless Payment Partnership” (www.cashlesscatalyst.org (link is external)). This multi-stakeholder partnership is designed to scale digital payments systems in India, catalyzing an exponential increase in cashless payments in select geographic locations. These locations will be selected based on criteria such as smartphone penetration, the local economy, and administrative feasibility.

This launch marks the next phase of partnership between USAID and India’s Ministry of Finance to help catalyze the rapid adoption of digital payments in India as a step toward achieving Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s vision of universal financial inclusion to end “economic untouchability” in India.

As noted by the White House during Prime Minister Modi’s visit to the United States in June, “the United States and India recognize the importance of efforts to expand financial inclusion as a means to fostering inclusive economic growth.”

Housed within the Institute for Financial Management and Research (IFMR) and supported through USAID’s Mobile Solutions Technical Assistance and Research (mSTAR) program with FHI360, Catalyst will combine new technology, business models, and institutional innovations to help merchants and consumers, in particular low-income and disadvantaged populations, participate in India’s growing digital economy.

Ambassador Jonathan Addleton, USAID Mission Director to India, lauded India’s efforts to expand financial inclusion and build an inclusive digital economy. “India is at the forefront of global efforts to digitize economies and create new economic opportunities that extend to hard-to-reach populations. Catalyst will support these efforts by focusing on the challenge of making everyday purchases cashless,” Addleton said.

Badal Malick, most recently Vice President and Head of Omnichannel at India’s leading online marketplace Snapdeal, has been appointed as Chief Executive Officer of Catalyst. Alok Gupta, former Chief Operating Officer at the World Resources Institute’s Sustainable Cities program, who was a member of the original Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI) team that developed and implemented Aadhaar, has been appointed Director of Project Incubation.

Speaking about Catalyst, Badal Malick said, “Catalyst’s mission is to solve multiple coordination problems that have blocked the penetration of digital payments among merchants and low-income consumers. We look forward to creating a sustainable and replicable model that will enable underserved populations to harness the full benefits of recently introduced, tectonic shifts in technology and policy in the digital payments space.”
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Sounds like GOI tried to get technical help wherever possible to ease the acceleration of ungliization, following the note-scrapping. I see nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't it be a LOT worse if there are so many experts around the world on digital economy (practised around the world for ages), and the GOI rushed into something of unprecedented scale without taking basic advice from all these entities?

The German article with its Forbesian terms like "brutal" is commie to the core. Tell the mofos to try to control ungliization at Cologne rail station for starters.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 04 Jan 2017 15:55, edited 1 time in total.
habal
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by habal »

that's also possible, job of leaders is to take risks. Nothing risked, nothing gained as old adage goes.

Nothing wrong in teaming up with USAID either but reduce outflow to foreign service providers by routing purchases through Rupay should be paramount. Amount of currency printed in India is prerogtive of RBI and GoI, and no third party can do anything about it. Have we been promised anything substantial in return, apart from hot air, is what I would like to know ?
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Have phoren providers benefited significantly? I know my sarkari baink ATM says "mastercard" on the corner, but it's still a desi sarkari baink card. PayTM is 400% Indian, hain? so is BHIM, and so is YooPeeAi.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by prahaar »

PayTM is not but BHIM/UPI is.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by rahulm »

I think China has a stake in payTM via Alibaba

Just returned from a day trip to Pratapgad - the nemesis of Afzal Khan.

2 dhaba restaurants in the fort were accepting Visa, MasterCard and Rupay but had Rs 300 minimums.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Rishi Verma »

Samajwadi Party's 100cr Gift to Bodyguard

Guys belatedly UP is beginning to compete with Bangaluru, Kerala.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by A_Gupta »

Bloomberg reports:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -crackdown
Banks have received 14.97 trillion rupees ($220 billion) as of Dec. 30, the deadline for handing in the old bank notes, the people said, asking not to be identified citing rules for speaking with the media. The government had initially estimated about 5 trillion rupees of the 15.4 trillion rupees rendered worthless by the sudden move on Nov. 9 to remain undeclared as it may have escaped the tax net illegally, known locally as black money.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Prasad »

So reports leaking out that 97% of money is back. 14.97 lac crores or so is the number being thrown about. We last heard 14.x lac crores had returned when rbi last told us.So not much of a stretch but certainly no straight up 1lac crore figure to point out now. What now?
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

Prasad wrote:So reports leaking out that 97% of money is back. 14.97 lac crores or so is the number being thrown about. We last heard 14.x lac crores had returned when rbi last told us.So not much of a stretch but certainly no straight up 1lac crore figure to point out now. What now?
Which means the only way out is for Income Tax folks to start issuing notices to the various account holders. If these figures are true (again Bloomberg has NOT got the official figures, and it is just unverified amount), then only a meagre 3% of black money has vanished. Things don't look really good. Now let us see how the Indian media spins this.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SSharma »

Prasad wrote:So reports leaking out that 97% of money is back. 14.97 lac crores or so is the number being thrown about. We last heard 14.x lac crores had returned when rbi last told us.So not much of a stretch but certainly no straight up 1lac crore figure to point out now. What now?
investigations are already ongoing as to which money is white and which is black

even if 110% of the money is back it doesnt mean its all white and demo failed, please understand that
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Supratik »

I think the success of demonetisation will depend on how much of that money deposited is white or black. Bloomberg is jumping the gun. Even 40000 crores plus not returned is not bad. It means the total amount uncovered so far is 1.3 lakh crore (previously) plus 50000 crore. You have to see it in totality.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by manju »

was at a sbi near home. the guy printing passbook (low level clerk) was not all enthusiastic about demonitization. Another customer who seemed to be average jo also unhappy...

today was chatting with a guy who is from andhra.. he was quite negative about Modi.. including demonitization. he is from andhra he was quite negative about modi. I suspect this guy reads too much of telugu papers printed by ysr juniors company.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Singha »

if the security guards a/c got 100 cr cash deposited would this not create a huge flutter at deposit time itself being a jan dhan ac? like he walks in with a van full of hard cash. even in 2L installments that 50 deposits for 1 crore, so 5000 people would need to stand in line and deposit to same ac :rotfl:

and if it was online should be easy to track where it came from

in the 1st case collusion of bank staff is for sure
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

manju wrote:was at a sbi near home. the guy printing passbook (low level clerk) was not all enthusiastic about demonitization. Another customer who seemed to be average jo also unhappy...
My SHQ works in a PSU bank and is mighty p-issed off. I do understand that they had to put in extra hours during the initial days, and also face lots of nasty customers. But then, I did ask an alternative from her side she did not have any. Her family also fits in the bhadralok category of Kerala, which I mentioned in another thread. So the standard refrain is "Why was all this required?? Life would just go on.. Being a crook means they are smart, we need to appreciate that.." etc.
today was chatting with a guy who is from andhra.. he was quite negative about Modi.. including demonitization. he is from andhra he was quite negative about modi. I suspect this guy reads too much of telugu papers printed by ysr juniors company.
Why Telugu media? The Malayalam news paper which I have been reading ever since I was a young lad, have been only spreading rumours or false alarms when it comes to demonetisation. Today their online portal reported about a woman stripping down at RBI Delhi's gate, because she was denied entry to "exchange" old notes. Today, if I was a Pakistani General I may decide to launch an attack on India. With Modi at helm, many of these "intellectuals" from the Southern states would be readily available as "enemy agents". BTW, the news paper which I read (http://www.mathrubhumi.com) has quite a good history but is now owned by a two-bit politician who is a no-body in Kerala, but a good pal of "humble farmer".
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Re: Demonetisation - A Balance Sheet

Post by SaraLax »


Again this is from Gurumurthy when he recently delivered a talk in New Delhi for Vivekananda International Foundation (Ajit Doval's place of work prior to becoming NSA of India) in December 2016 & explained about Demonetization, the need for the same and how the last UPA government had spoiled the Indian economy & why our country will face an economic bust if we allowed this parallel black economy to continue to grow into bigger proportions & continued to allow assets (gold/real estate/stocks) to get inflated in their value beyond their actual worth.

Also embedded in that speech is the explanation of why all black money reaching the banks is indeed a victory for the demonetization and how it will be handled & used to identify the proper person who pushed in this money into the banks & the resultant outcomes.

Many people in this forum are already in the default me-a-fearful-indian-and-thus-experiencing-dhoti-shivering mode that all this 97% of BM has come into bank and thus Modi has lost !!!!!


Look out keenly for the facts & figures based explanation on how Black Money, unregulated Participatory Notes and etc are damaging the true economy and affecting the less financially strong people. You will be enriched with details he provides and will possibly feel that the time spent in listening to this talk was surely not a waste of time.

- Look out for the % of growth in the value of Real Estate, Gold & Stock Markets during NDA-1 period (1999-2004) and the same during UPA Period (2004-2010).

- Look out for the steep reduction in jobs created between NDA-1 (when economy grew by average of 5.5%) and UPA (2004-2010, this period when the Indian economy 'grew by 8.4%' in a certain year).

- Look out for the figures that indicate the increase in 500 & 1000 INR Notes jumping from 34% of cash in circulation in 2004 to 86% of cash in circulation by 2016, that the BSE Sensex (30 odd companies) represent just 1% of Indian GDP and how BSE 500 represents just 4.5% of Indian GDP and how its wrong to look at Sensex to understand the Indian economy's future path.

- Look out for his specific instances of Real Estate deals information on how much inflated the Real Estate deals were made in Mumbai & elsewhere between 2006 & 2010 ... with land values increasing by 400+% with in 2 years for one certain NTC textile Mill in Mumbai and some other specific land deals where the value of the deals had grown by more than 200% with in a couple of years.

- Look out for the detail on how Chidambaram plotted 'Unidentified-Individuals-in-Tax-Havens-owned-Participatory Notes-Types-Funds' based Stock Market investments (basically BM taking the route from India to Foreign Tax Havens and then back to Indian Stocks and achieving white money status) increased from 68 odd thousand crores to 3.6 Lakh crores when there was no need for identifying the individual funding the Particpatory Note and then soon fell by many folds from 3.6 Lakh Crores to just 70 thousand crores, when there was a subsequent addition to the rules to reveal the identity of the funder behind the Participatory Notes.

- Look out for his continuous plea to the audience & Indians in general - to first understand their own country, its economy & etc by venturing around the nation (like how Gandhiji did for more than a year to understand India before jumping into Freedom movement) and not to blindly believe what a rank outsider like Paul Krugman, Lawrence Summers and even Raghuram Rajan publishes about the Indian Economy without understanding its primary nature.

This linked youtube video is also for folks like MohdKav, Habal, Philip, ShauryaT, Dibankar & etc.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by kmkraoind »

Prasad wrote:So reports leaking out that 97% of money is back. 14.97 lac crores or so is the number being thrown about. We last heard 14.x lac crores had returned when rbi last told us.So not much of a stretch but certainly no straight up 1lac crore figure to point out now. What now?
I have no doubt that all legal currency (98-99%) will return to the banks. Only FICN notes will not be returned.

Being said that 98-99% will return. I bet
- 20-30% of that returned money has lost 15-20% as cuts to poor and crooks.
- 10-20% of that returned money has lost 30% or more as cuts to poor and crooks.

I think of the deposited currency IT/ED can probe 4-5 lakhs of currency, i.e. the launders have left huge trails of crumbs and 2-3 lakhs of black money may have passed as right.

Poor or lower middle class (which still constitute 70% of Indian population) despite facing hardships due to Demonetisation are happy for 2 counts.
- First they have seen how corrupt are feeling pain with their own eyes or through friends and relatives. So they think if crooks are feeling pain, Modi has done right. They are thinking, Modi has just administrated a "bitter medicine" to India, yes there are some side effects, but medicine is must and is working and they have evidence of its working (they are seeing crooks in pain).
- Second some of them has got a cut of 15-30% for converting some amount of money black into white.

Overall, people are thinking Modi is cleansing the system. If higher middle class or rich want to come to "Ethical line of life," Modi is paving a red-golden carpet for them. I bet many Dharmic middle class or rich though feeling personal pain, in their hearts they are not angry on Modi and I even think many (60% or greater) will vote for Modi only.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by ShauryaT »

IMO: First milestone of demonetization has failed, now let us wait for the 2nd one. The new IDS ending March 31 to see what its results are or it is going to be a a long sledge, which has its own consequences on sentiment. Meanwhile hope the economy recovers with minimal damage control. Also, will be interesting to know how much of the lost liquidity is back into the system. Reports say they are at about 50% restored for now - by value (primarily due to the new Rs. 2000). The demonetized Rs. 500 was at about 48% of the circulation and this being the most needed along with the Rs. 100 expect the overall remonetized number to be at least 12 lac crores in a few months. Next check point is March 31, to see where we are. This the point at which GoI can see if they want to pursue this further or cut their losses and move on (political scoring points notwithstanding).

From a circulation stand point, it makes sense to limit production of Rs. 2000, its use is not very practical in large numbers and will encourage new counterfeit money and easier storage of new BM generated. It may look good for the overall value of remonetization achieved but has negative implications. Would have ideally preferred not to have it, but we deal with what we have now.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Philip »

Great,we now seek tainted western beancounters (remember the Satyam scam?) to help track the coloured cash trail, paying huge fees to them.Are desi audit firms inferior? This further reinforces the German report of the true godfather of the demon project.
Last edited by Philip on 05 Jan 2017 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by ManishC »

Returning of 98% of money does not constitute failure of DeMo.
As JetLee has said depositing money does not make it white.

The denouement is still to happen. IMHO:
A. Identify accounts which went from 0 to multiple Crores on a war footing and freeze them - so far there has been couple of self reported cases of people finding 100 crores in their account. Banks should be given a 2 weeks deadline to identify and freeze all windfall deposits. Money likely belongs to BM holders who panicked, easy pickings here.
B. Review Jan Dhan accounts which went from 0 to multiple lakhs and Freeze those over x Lakhs - this will take care of BM holders who have transferred cash to their underlings using fear or favor. A month deadline to banks to do the needful.
C. Provide a window to above folks to come clean or seize and extinguish the BM identified
D. Identify the big fish from above exercise, and put them on compulsory IT audit

E. Ensure adequate Currency supply and increase withdrawal limits to non-affected accounts
F. Lower Individual and Corporate IT rates and simplify tax and other rules (Stamp duty etc.) -result Increase tax base
G. After a cooloff period Demo Rs 2000 notes - rinse and repeat A to D.
H. Win 2019 riding a Rath :mrgreen:
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Philip »

However,from a political viewpoint,as said before,Mr.Modi has widespread support from the common man.An arch capitalist pal remarked in the early days ," he's turned us all into Commies!",when money was v.scarce in banks and ATMs.Seeing the "rich" struggle to launder
their cash and in the process getting a few crumbs from their table has been a source of satisfaction.
The demon project has certainly increased the number of individuals opening or operating bank accts. who earlier never paid their taxes.The pain of the common man is due to the incompetence of the RBI and Fin.Minin the execution of the project."Executions"of those responsible must take place.Babus cannot escape their responsibility..Windfall gains for telecom and credit card cos. benefits firang entities.

What the entire exercise shows is that there is only one strong leader in India unafraid to pursue his agenda whether you agree with that agenda or not.The Opposition have been woefully disappointing in that they have failed to counter the PM intellectually through intelligent debate.RG seeks solace in London(!) while the ersatz "socialists"in the cow belt have embarked upon a blood feud. The UP elections will further reinforce Mr.Modi's image as the BJP is the only coherent ,consolidated national party in the Indial political firmament.Expect more shocks for the rag-tag Opposition.
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