Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jan 2017 20:23

They really need to speed tests and protos up and do it monthly to be realistic.even a chota mota cm cannot be made like a gslv

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Jan 2017 20:25

Indranil wrote:Agni has hit it bullseye.

If India makes more long-range ICBMs, Beijing may help Pakistan do the same, says Chinese state media

Prasanna sir, the wing is indeed a single piece which hinges 90 degrees around its center to deploy. Once deployed the gap in the fuselage is covered by a fairing for drag reduction. However, the scenario you are describing is very unlikely. There is no half-deployed position. Once the lock from the stowed position is unlocked, the wing deployment and locking into position is mechanical and automatic.

Anyways, I have no news of what went wrong. So your story is the only thing I have to go on.

How about India help Vietnam develop long range missiles.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Jan 2017 21:20

Vietnam definitely will go for an offensive strategic ballistic missile capability since it does have a tactical disadvantage vs the Chinese

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 05 Jan 2017 21:42

The chinese are beginning to unravel.

. Wait till K-4 SLBM is test fired again. You will see them squealing on every channel. The fact that A-4 and 5 are almost inducted means chinis are no longer the only top dogs in asia. Arihant too has played a part in setting their asses on fire.

I hope GoI releases a statement supporting pakis making longer range missiles so they can play more effective role in highlighting the plight of uighur ummah biraders.

Can A-1 and A-2 which will soon be replace by A-1P and A-4 be exported??

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Jan 2017 21:44

So much for the Missle tech control regime. If China does it openly then I guess we shall be happy. They are anyway doing it secretly. Time to get few more Arihant class boats.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jan 2017 22:36

Bheeshma wrote:The chinese are beginning to unravel. . Wait till K-4 SLBM is test fired again. You will see them squealing on every channel. The fact that A-4 and 5 are almost inducted means chinis are no longer the only top dogs in asia. Arihant too has played a part in setting their asses on fire.

I hope GoI releases a statement supporting pakis making longer range missiles so they can play more effective role in highlighting the plight of uighur ummah biraders.

Can A-1 and A-2 which will soon be replace by A-1P and A-4 be exported??

tha hans buggered the amrekis nuclear might by using just a few ICBMs.

When India does the same to the hans, the hans squeal like stuck pigs.

Just shows you that it does not take hundreds (han) or even thousands (amreki) of warheads to become a very very credible threat.

Modi has done to the hans what the boot licking congis (sonia, mms and gang) would never have had the testimonials to do.

this chaiwalla is a very complex thinker and strategist of no mean capability.

anything after Agni is like cream in the coffee.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2017 23:01

Chetak, Read a book by French General Pierre Gallois titled "Balance of Terror".

Book Review in BAS
Book review

Essentially he says unless you can credibly threaten your challenger there wont be a balance.
So the pleading mode that Nehruvian India did would never work in realist world.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 05 Jan 2017 23:53

Exactly!! Thats why an MIRV capable A-6 and K-5 are very important. Along with bread and butter Brahmos, nirbhay and Prahaar to take care of pakis.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Jan 2017 00:44

MIRV capability will be demonstrated by other means. Watch out the Indian Space thread.

How many Agonies are required for china? I am thinking of putting together an article "Agony for China"*. My calculation is 12 Agni IV and an equivalent Agni V (12) for strike back to take out 20% of China's population and lay to waste 70% of its economy. Basically strategic balance is achieved by 24 Agni IRBMs.

*This is a play on the words "Agni IV China".

---

Given the rabid reaction from China and cheenis still reacting like headless chicken., India has already won the nukular war with Cheen.

Cheen can go and suck up to bakis and give them missile tech - but they will be toast in MTCR and this action of cheen will pave way for India and US (particularly US) to arm everybody in the South China Sea. Talk about being Sun Tzu Smart but Strategically stupid. The no-dong missile tech will find its way to NoKo and bum tech from NoKo will find its way to Bakistan. This will be a repeat of Clinton/Kissinger era tech transfer., except the clintonites are not in picture now!

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 06 Jan 2017 00:54

C'mon BRFees, Ju guys are not paid to think what India should do today and tomorrow, jus think 15-20 years in future. India should park a dozen multi-warhead nukes in LEO. India should arm Vietnam with nukes and delivery vehicles, also arm them with 40 carrier-killer SU-30MKVs with nuke-brahmos. Get into security arrangements with South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Iran for data sharing, drills, war games. Sell them Akash batteries. Develop drone Tech with any / all of them. If China has paki poodle India can develop many such in a short time

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 06 Jan 2017 01:17

kit wrote:Vietnam definitely will go for an offensive strategic ballistic missile capability since it does have a tactical disadvantage vs the Chinese

What is the value of long range Ballistic missile with a conventional war-head?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Jan 2017 01:30

Atmavik wrote:
kit wrote:Vietnam definitely will go for an offensive strategic ballistic missile capability since it does have a tactical disadvantage vs the Chinese
What is the value of long range Ballistic missile with a conventional war-head?

Lot more valuable than the inability to strike important economic or military target deep inside enemy territory using 1.5T conventional warhead.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jan 2017 01:31

prasannasimha wrote:^^ This was what was told to me - the wing did not deply fully (I think they ahve to find out why) Probably if the wing got stuck at say 170 degrees instead of fullly out to 180 and gets lo9cked in place then things would be OK but if it gets stuck at some angle wouldn't it be difficult to maintain flight ?

It cannot get locked at 170 degree (I think you mean 80 degrees). The mechanism is like your retractable umbrella. It can only be locked in the folded position or fully deployed position. It could happen that the wing never fully deployed, in which case it would not be locked. Why would a spring loaded wing not fully deploy is something which I am missing. Singha sir is speculating that may be the slit-fairings closed too quickly jamming the free rotation of the wing. Now, I don't know the mechanism employed to close the slits. But, I would be very surprised if they designed a mechanism which can allow the fairing to be closed before the wing is fully deployed.

The sequence is as follows: the missile is launched with the slit-fairings open. Immediately after the booster has separated (at around 14 seconds), a command is issued to release the catch holding the wing in the folded position. The wing swings open and on reaching its fully deployed position releases/employs another catch which locks it in this position. Simultaneously another set of catches is also released which were holding the slit-fairings open. The spring loaded fairings close shut. The above sequence of operations from first catch release to slit-fairing shut close are mechanical, automatic and atomic, i.e. the sequence is uninterruptable and takes less than a second.

How the missile at an altitude of a few hundreds of feet kept flying for 50-110 more seconds is therefore alluding me. This is why I am struggling to believe this theory.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 06 Jan 2017 01:34

Chinese will never know if we or unkil has paased them nukes. Let them keep guessing. Brahmos (500 Km) long range will be ideal to mix it up in Indo-china sea.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 06 Jan 2017 01:35

Regarding the Nirbhay wing issue, I believe the 100 km range SAAW also has a similar slot for the wings. Why is it not an issue on the SAAW?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Jan 2017 01:37

The reports from Rout and co. before the test seemed to indicate that the engineers knew that there were issues which weren't resolved after the last failure and the test was being carried out despite that due to pressure from the top. In that case, it couldn't have been a simple component failure which stopped the wings from being deployed fully. That seems more like a QC issue which nobody could have predicted. Or if it is a design issue, it would have been easy to fix. It wouldn't have been left unresolved after a whole year.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jan 2017 02:31

SAAW doesn't have the same wing structure. SAAW has two independent wings which have separate pivot points and both fold backwards into the fuselage. AFAIK they don't have a fairing for the open slit as well.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2017 02:38

Indranil, Any reports of the low level Astra flights that were scheduled last month?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 06 Jan 2017 02:41

Thanks Indranil. I hope they replicate that in the Nirbhay if that's what is causing the problems. But there could be other issues. Nirbhay like Prahaar is a low cost bread and butter option for mass hits after the uber Brahmos & Shaurya have knocked out AD components and bunkers. They both need to be pursued with.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 06 Jan 2017 02:52

Wings not deploying (or partially deploying) seems too simplistic. It could have been damaged at the time of canister launch...something got bent or some debris caused damage..

John · Post by **John** » 06 Jan 2017 05:33

Bheeshma wrote:Thanks Indranil. I hope they replicate that in the Nirbhay if that's what is causing the problems. But there could be other issues. Nirbhay like Prahaar is a low cost bread and butter option for mass hits after the uber Brahmos & Shaurya have knocked out AD components and bunkers. They both need to be pursued with.

Nirbhay currently is quoted as costing about 10 crores likely production variant will cost more. Brahmos originally quoted at 6 crores during development is currently at around 15 crores. Even if you are optimistic Nirbhay is 50% cheaper and has better range Brahmos has better KE. Overall for under 300 km ( sticking to official range for Brahmos) Brahmos is better choice.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2017 06:10

Besides you need many arrows for your bow.
Relying only on Brahmos or hoping for foreign collaboration after MTCR is like overfeeding on hope and die of starvation later..

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Jan 2017 06:52

^^ Brahmos is limited by the type of warheads it can carry. Good against hardened structures but not too good against dispersed targets which may require sub munitions. Smaller moving targets traveling at a reasonable speed (TEL trucks for eg) with a cluttered background might prove to be a difficult target for high speed Brahmos.

John · Post by **John** » 06 Jan 2017 06:58

Popeye missile or drone are reserved for that not long range cruise missiles.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 06 Jan 2017 08:59

IAF may get Astra by year end

The indigenous beyond-visual-range missile Astra underwent 12 tests in the last two and half years and would require at least four more trials before it is handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) for operational use.

Scientists at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) hoped to complete the remaining four trials before the summer of 2017, so that it could be transferred to the service later this year. The missile with 75 km range was first launched in May 2014 and integrated with the Su-30MKI aircraft by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, a year later.

The live firing of the missile was demonstrated before President Pranab Mukherjee and Prime Minister Narendra Modi at the IAF’s iron-fist fire power demonstration in March 2016.

“We have done 12 trials of Astra firing so far and need to do four more before the missile is ready for the IAF. The remaining trials may be completed by the summer of 2017, depending on the availability of Su-30 MKI aircraft,” a source told DH.

Astra is already over four years behind schedule. The probable date of completion was originally fixed at August 2012 and later revised to December 2016.

The missile’s launch in December 2016 reportedly failed, though the officials maintain silence over this.

Reports from Bhubaneswar suggest that Astra lost velocity within a few seconds after the firing, slipped from the intended trajectory, dropped and then exploded on a beach along the coastline. However, neither the DRDO nor the defence ministry responded in this regard.

Agni series
On the 5,000-km range Agni-V missile, sources said the DRDO completed four successful trials since its maiden flight in April 2012. No more developmental trials are required as the missile is ready for the user — the Strategic Forces Command — they said.

The 17-metre long missile, weighing around 50 tonnes, was last launched from a road mobile canister on December 26, demonstrating its all-terrain applicability and the weapon’s flexibility to be fired from any part of the country.

The nuclear missile is capable of carrying a war-head of 1,000 kg.

On January 2, the long-range surface-to-surface ballistic missile Agni-IV, with a range of 4,000 km, was successfully flight tested, showcasing the weapon’s efficacy and reliability.

This was Agni-IV’s seventh launch, which included three developmental flights and four tests to train the users.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 06 Jan 2017 09:53

How many user trials are required before it gets Inducted? I guess now SFC will conduct at least 3-4 user trails of A-5?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2017 12:28

Kasturirangan Committee had said 4 successful tests prior to induction. A5 has completed them.
Its now on to SFC User trials.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jan 2017 14:48

ramana wrote:Indranil, Any reports of the low level Astra flights that were scheduled last month?

I don't know. The problem of the missile hitting the shore is obviously one of component failure. Nothing alarming about that. Happens to production missiles all the time. I still believe that the goal of the last test was a hit-to-kill*. That is typically the mission objective during tests. But even if I am correct, this is a fine tuning issue. With Astra, we seem to be really close now. Frankly, with missiles, I think India has almost arrived at the world stage. The last hurdle is some types of seekers.

*Thanks to some of the posters, I have a better understanding of the warheads.

Bheeshma wrote:Thanks Indranil. I hope they replicate that in the Nirbhay if that's what is causing the problems.

SAAW like arrangement of the wings is not ideal for Nirbhay. SAAW's wings are rectangular with constant chord roughly equal to half the width of the missile. Hence in the folded position, the wings can lay parallel to each other. This is not case with Nirbhay's wings which are tapered, and whose chord at the wingroot is close to the width of the missile. Hence, Nirbhay's wing is designed as a single piece which pivots around its center. The result is simple, elegant and efficient (light-weight) design.

Nirbhay is not a cheap missile. Neither is Brahmos. They have their jobs, not much of which is intersecting. ADE needs a shake down though. Other than the Tejas related stuff, none of the lab's products actually work in practice. I mean we use Banshees more often than Lakshya. God knows what happened to Abhyas. The development of Rustom I/II is agonizingly slow. Nirbhay needs a relook. Nishant tortured existence has finally come to an end. None of the mini UAVs have reached the production stage. My fingers are crossed on Panchi. One good news is that CVRDE has handed over the uprated 65 HP engine. Let's see hoe Panchi unfolds. I thing that I was expecting to see on the Panchi was higher aspect ratio wings with winglets, more fuel, larger payload, longer hang time. I have heard no significant improvement so far.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Jan 2017 16:32

Waiting for canisterised A-3 and then A-4. In last 12 months we've made a significant progress towards achieving a deterrence if you count the Arihant. Road mobile A-5 is applying plenty of mirchi up north.

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 06 Jan 2017 19:49

New NAVAREA Warning Issued

INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 3031 INT 71 (.)

EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR DAILY FROM 10 TO 14 JAN 17 FROM 0530-0930 UTC

IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-22.35N 086-55.58E, 21-13.92N 086-51.84E, 20-39.66N 087-22.32E,20-52.38N 087-36.66E, 21-25.74N 087-05.16E, 21-22.87N 086-56.20E

2. CANCEL THIS MSG 141030 UTC JAN 17

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 06 Jan 2017 20:04

Further testing of Astra ?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Jan 2017 20:16

Certainly seems so.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Jan 2017 00:09

If I am not wrong the following tender is for Agni 1P: Design, Manufacturing & Supply of Drilling cum Machining Fixture of Composite Canister

If so, the missile is roughly going to 0.8 meters wide and 8 mtrs long. IT will be canisterized and will roughly weigh around 6 Tons.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 07 Jan 2017 00:13

Agni-1P is two stage missile. I think 8 m is too short for that. Maybe first stage is 8 m long? A-1 itself is 15 m so half the length and smaller dia may not be correct?
The specs you mentioned are nearly identical to shaurya. 10 m , 0.74m dia and 6.2 tons.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 07 Jan 2017 00:22

What is stopping us from testing and inducting AC killer missile? Why dont we demonstrate a satellite killer capability? That will calm down many people.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Jan 2017 04:30

Bheeshma wrote:Agni-1P is two stage missile. I think 8 m is too short for that. Maybe first stage is 8 m long? A-1 itself is 15 m so half the length and smaller dia may not be correct?
The specs you mentioned are nearly identical to shaurya. 10 m , 0.74m dia and 6.2 tons.

Agni 1P will be significantly smaller and lighter than Agni 1. Since Agni-1P uses pure balastic trajectory while Shaurya doesn't, it will take lesser fuel to deliver the same payload to equivalent distance. Hence I expect Agni-1P to have roughly the same dimensions and weight as Shaurya, may be slightly smaller.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Jan 2017 04:55

Bheeshma wrote:Agni-1P is two stage missile. I think 8 m is too short for that. Maybe first stage is 8 m long? A-1 itself is 15 m so half the length and smaller dia may not be correct?
The specs you mentioned are nearly identical to shaurya. 10 m , 0.74m dia and 6.2 tons.

Agni 1P will be significantly smaller and lighter than Agni 1. You can reference the Agni 3 - Agni-3P conversion: 50 tons to 22 tons. Notice that Agni-1P and Shaurya have very similar range and payload capabilities. While the former uses a purely ballistic trajectory, the latter uses a semi-ballistic trajectory. So, Agni-1P is likely to roughly have the same dimensions and weight as Shaurya. If anything, it will be slightly smaller. Also notice that the missile shown in the diagram is finless, like Agni 2P and Agni 5. So ....

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 07 Jan 2017 08:10

Ah I missed the schematics in page 6/7. It looks like the whole canister is only 9.05 m long so I assume the missile is less than 9m.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 07 Jan 2017 09:04

Indranil wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Agni-1P is two stage missile. I think 8 m is too short for that. Maybe first stage is 8 m long? A-1 itself is 15 m so half the length and smaller dia may not be correct?
The specs you mentioned are nearly identical to shaurya. 10 m , 0.74m dia and 6.2 tons.
Agni 1P will be significantly smaller and lighter than Agni 1. You can reference the Agni 3 - Agni-3P conversion: 50 tons to 22 tons. Notice that Agni-1P and Shaurya have very similar range and payload capabilities. While the former uses a purely ballistic trajectory, the latter uses a semi-ballistic trajectory. So, Agni-1P is likely to roughly have the same dimensions and weight as Shaurya. If anything, it will be slightly smaller. Also notice that the missile shown in the diagram is finless, like Agni 2P and Agni 5. So ....

What is Agni 3P?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Jan 2017 10:15

I am calling it so for want of a better name. It is the production standard Agni III.