'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jan 2017 01:15

New Fighter Aircraft Deal – Again?
http://defenceupdate.in/new-fighter-air ... eal-again/

License manufacture also involves extensive technology transfer including detailed drawings, equipment and machinery, assembly lines etc. What exactly would the new deal involve that goes beyond this? The next step up the ladder involves design capability to develop a new aircraft from scratch. Why should a foreign manufacturer work hard to build such capabilities in India, and how exactly would this be done? Interestingly, Lockheed has said it is not interested in pursuing the 100% FDI route opened up by India, supposedly because foreign manufacturers would not transfer sensitive technologies unless they are in full control. So what does this say about Lockheed’s willingness to allow its Indian partner to take the lead?

India has so far failed to convert manufacturing capability into design know-how and continues in failing to leverage offsets to acquire such know-how in critical areas. Also, modern aircraft have numerous specialized components and sub-assemblies, involving many manufacturers other than the parent company, each of which have particular capabilities. It is difficult to imagine this complex ecosystem being set up in India in the short time frame as seems to be required for urgent delivery. For all the noise being made, the technology transfer is likely to end up as yet another endeavour in licensed manufacturing or “make in India” under supervision of a foreign collaborator. This government continues to confuse this with true acquisition of technology development capability.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jan 2017 11:54

Other factors appear to be behind the indecent haste for inking such a deal. These are tangential to those of the IAF who want good fighting -fit aircraft as of the last century!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Jan 2017 15:55

due to the nature of global manufacturing supply chains, there is increasingly limited value in final assembly. its all in the R&D and Production Engineering funda. putting (even complicated) things together is a very small part of the value add in a manufactured product these days. this explains why the americans are ok about giving up screw driver giri and keep the best bits for themselves whilst keeping the illusion of cooperation going

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 16 Jan 2017 18:26

+1

Lalmohan wrote:due to the nature of global manufacturing supply chains, there is increasingly limited value in final assembly. its all in the R&D and Production Engineering funda. putting (even complicated) things together is a very small part of the value add in a manufactured product these days. this explains why the americans are ok about giving up screw driver giri and keep the best bits for themselves whilst keeping the illusion of cooperation going

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Jan 2017 06:36

Taiwan begins F-16V modernisation effort

Taiwan has begun the process of upgrading its Lockheed Martin F-16 fighting Falcon combat aircraft to the latest F-16V configuration, with the first jets arriving at the Aerospace Industrial Development Corp (AIDC) facility in Taichung, it was reported on 17 January.

..

First unveiled at the Singapore Airshow in 2012, the F-16V features the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-83 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar (also known as the Scalable Agile Beam Radar [SABR] and derived from the F-16E/F Block 60 AN/APG-80); a new Raytheon mission computer; the Link 16 datalink; modern cockpit displays; an enhanced electronic warfare system; and a ground collision avoidance system.
..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jan 2017 07:38

JayS wrote:
Rakesh wrote: I believe each fighter goes through 3 engines in her lifetime.
They don't replace complete engines anymore. Just replace critical parts. Only one engine lasts entire a/c life. Considering spare parts replacement its effectively less than 2 engines. 6000h life for engine is possible without even changing any key parts.

Western engines yes. Not sure about Russian ones. The Russians started off with relatively inexpensive engines that would be replaced after x hours.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jan 2017 08:29

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
They don't replace complete engines anymore. Just replace critical parts. Only one engine lasts entire a/c life. Considering spare parts replacement its effectively less than 2 engines. 6000h life for engine is possible without even changing any key parts.
Western engines yes. Not sure about Russian ones. The Russians started off with relatively inexpensive engines that would be replaced after x hours.

Do not think that is the case with the newer engines - at least the intent. I suspect due to a paucity of funds they have not been able to produce to match their capabilities. But, Russia has changed ways to match that of the West. I do not think they can stay on the sidelines on such matters any longer. Events may prevent them from succeeding, but that is a diff matter.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 18 Jan 2017 12:12

Lalmohan wrote:due to the nature of global manufacturing supply chains, there is increasingly limited value in final assembly. its all in the R&D and Production Engineering funda. putting (even complicated) things together is a very small part of the value add in a manufactured product these days. this explains why the americans are ok about giving up screw driver giri and keep the best bits for themselves whilst keeping the illusion of cooperation going

+1

Given that India is a poor country, if even funds that are earmarked for aerospace defense projects are being appropriated to overseas plane manufacturers (to fund their R&D), there is almost nothing left for domestic aerospace R&D companies.

Importing foreign single engine planes that largely duplicates the role of the Tejas destroys incentive of local companies to expand R&D efforts to support the fledgling aerospace industry.

No local company will invest money & effort in domestic defense projects which end up with low production runs and ultimately get shut down in favor of importing foreign planes.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Jan 2017 20:48

NRao wrote:
shiv wrote: Western engines yes. Not sure about Russian ones. The Russians started off with relatively inexpensive engines that would be replaced after x hours.
Do not think that is the case with the newer engines - at least the intent. I suspect due to a paucity of funds they have not been able to produce to match their capabilities. But, Russia has changed ways to match that of the West. I do not think they can stay on the sidelines on such matters any longer. Events may prevent them from succeeding, but that is a diff matter.

My opinion is pretty much the same here. Even with Al-31FP, HAL is expecting to increase the life significantly. I won't be surprised to see it being increased from 2000hrs to 3000hrs or even 3500hrs. GE for example works a lot on life extension due to obvious benefits with ling term PBL agreements. I don't think Russians have such contract system.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jan 2017 23:57

Pakistani Ambassador Hopeful Of Buying F-16 Fighter Jets From US
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18247/ ... H-w6lMrKM9

I hope HAL (or private player) is able to open up multiple production shifts, to meet the PAF demand for additional F-16s. Since the entire production line is being moved to India, it only makes sense to do so.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 19 Jan 2017 03:06

^^ only with the following five kill-switches
- keep the plane from making a right turn
- keep the missile from being launched
- keep the bomb from being released
- keep the plane from landing
- keep the pilot from ejecting

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 19 Jan 2017 03:56

^^you have seriously ignored the kamikaze/jihadi mentality of peacefuls fighting plane with 90 degree AoA

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2017 05:54

shame on both of you for wishing bad karma on the PAF

I want these F-Solahs to be built, delivered (in a red bow) and perform to the exacting standards, like in the US. Only then we will realize the true value of Deep ToT

The supplier base in the US should keep these planes at minimum 95% serviceability

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 19 Jan 2017 07:04

Boeing has an updated F-18 in the works — here's how it's 'comparable' to the F-35

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jan 2017 08:39

I think the USN and Trump should consider a navalized F-16 Block 74 MII.

Hire Gillian for sales and PR.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 23 Jan 2017 00:18

US is busy modifying F-16s that have met end of their life into drones for target practice and possibly other purposes. With fly by wire algorithms getting better every day, having unmanned attack airplanes would be a huge plus. Not having to accomodate two pilots and their ejection systems and other safety measures reduces weight and complexity. While one would still need long endurance drones with loitering capabilities, unmanned, highly agile and lethal platforms such as F-16 can be a potential force mulitplier. They can even be used for kamakazi missions for super high value targets.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/ ... _term=ndtv
https://www.rt.com/usa/air-force-unmann ... light-301/

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jan 2017 00:51

The bane:the squishy human body. The boon: the 20W 1.5 ltr pattern recognition supercomputer which can see the twitch of a plane and instantly realize what the next move is going to be. We humans simply havn't found a way to replace the human brain in aerial combat yet. Taking off, landing, loitering, delivering PGMs: yes we can.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 23 Jan 2017 01:08

QF-16 is another topic that pops up every few weeks almost like clockwork. It's a QF-4 replacement guys. And on AI, most folks looking into it have realized the value is in manned and unmanned teaming (and who gets that part right) as opposed to simply pitting one against the other.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Jan 2017 01:42

How does that work? One flying ~~Galaxy 7~~ eph-PynThese texting a host of drones?

That pic of an ancient F-4 flying robotic over Florida was quite an eye-opener. The vast aluminum resources parked in the desert suddenly become a vast army of robots.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jan 2017 12:55

When I suggested aeons ago that we should convert our hundreds of obsolete MIG types,apart from cannibalisation, into one-way Pakistan headed Kamikaze aircraft,I was laughed at! The option still exists as a few hundred are heading for retirerment within the next few years. All that is needed is for our DRDO/ADA/HAL boffins to put their noses to the grindstone,in a short timeframe programme. Another poss. use.converting many of these aircraft into EW birds like the Growlers,where they could carry EW pods and extra fuel tanks for extra endurance.200+ aircraft is a sizeable resource.
There is a superb article on how Taiwan is keeping the world's oldest sub in service afloat so that it can complete its 70th birthday a few years from now!.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 23 Jan 2017 14:06

^^ converting obsolete planes into flying bombs is not practical from the engineering point of view.
I can tell you if you suggested such a solution in engineering circles, you would be laughed at.

It costs money to develop & engineer a working & fail safe system to take off & pilot these aircraft to their destination.
Just about anything in aerospace takes a ton of money to develop due to verification & validation costs.
It costs a lot of money to keep these obsolete fighter planes maintained and in flying condition - no less than any other aircraft.
The end result would be a messy solution taking a few years to develop, validate and deploy.
Not practical at all.
Its like trying to turn a 1960s farm tractor into a passenger car.

Consider that even with a project like Nirbhay, they are having failures in delivering a missile to a target.
And that's after over a decade of development!

Its a much better idea to develop low cost cruise missile like Nirbhay designed off a clean sheet of paper than trying to re-engineer a old cement mixer into a snow mobile.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 23 Jan 2017 15:06

Might have been a bit more feasable if it was as simple (relatively speaking) as converting a dumb bomb into a smart bomb by straping on a kit, ala JDAMs

And now a days with MALDs under development, it also gives diminishing returns if trying to use them as SAM or AAM magnets, keeping your main force lurking behind

Maybe the best use is to keep them as decoys on the ground

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 Jan 2017 15:30

Neshant wrote: I can tell you if you suggested such a solution in engineering circles, you would be laughed at.

I guess you should change the "engineering circles" you hang around then...

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 23 Jan 2017 16:11

JayS wrote:
Neshant wrote: I can tell you if you suggested such a solution in engineering circles, you would be laughed at.
I guess you should change the "engineering circles" you hang around then...

Did I tell you about the backyard droneyard that I built. Imagine even the chaps at ADE are not my kit level science project (And obvioulsy I am smarter than all those chaps who want only mil-grade stuff! Pah at them amateurs!!!).

Obviously I can teach you many many things about this field you have been working on for many years.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 23 Jan 2017 19:36

JayS wrote:
Neshant wrote: I can tell you if you suggested such a solution in engineering circles, you would be laughed at.
I guess you should change the "engineering circles" you hang around then...

Great, please cite some contemporary examples where fleets of obsolete aircraft have been re-engineered as flying bombs.

This should be interesting.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Jan 2017 00:10

Rakesh wrote:Don't get me wrong, India is NOT Pakistan. But engine tech is not coming

Admiral saar, please do away with the ji. The above is the key. Let us see what MP can negotiate. Without some sharing of secret sauce, this deal would become another screwdriver exercise albeit one that could still provide a boost to private industry so as to compete with hal.

Rakesh wrote:Solah or Gripen....both are dangerous for the Tejas. However with the latter, at least there is a common engine. I still don't like it, but if I had to choose...that is what I would do.

Not so sure here. Pure performance wise, the solah is well ahead of the gripen or the tejas. The NG is way overweight to compete in terms of power, and the consequent flight performance, and the f16 payload is completely out of reach for the gripen/tejas. The tejas mk2 is still on paper and it is doubtful it could meet its incredible weight goals.

Net result...gripen is much closer as a platform to tejas, esp. Mk1a and therefore will be a direct competition to tejas.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jan 2017 05:25

But engine tech is not coming

More curious. What is/are the expectations on an "engine".

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 24 Jan 2017 07:21

DRDO’s pilot ejection system in private hands

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities ... s-4488425/

The Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and the High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), who have developed the Canopy Severance System (CSS) for smooth ejection of a pilot in case of an emergency with a military aircraft, transferred the technology to two Hyderabad-based private firms this week.

The CSS provided smooth passage by preweakening the cockpit canopy in the shortest possible time and has been supplied by the DRDO so far. Presently, the system has been integrated on 15 Tejas, 12 HJT-36, 2 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) trainer and naval versions and the first HTT-40 aircraft.

“This system cuts the canopy in a matter of 10 to 20 milliseconds (wow, that's pretty fast cutting) and is the fastest of its kind. Other systems used for this purpose are likely to affect the pilot’s neck and knee since they either throw out the canopy (jettison) or use fragilisation, where the canopy is broken to pieces,” explained Kashinath Deodhar, divisional head of the project at ARDE.

Dr K M Rajan, scientist and director, ARDE, and KPS Murthy, scientist and director, HEMRL, signed the deal on January 20 with senior representatives of Gulf Oil Corporation and Premier Explosives for the production of the DRDO-developed CSS. These firms will be now supplying eight sets each in the first phase, after fulfilling all the set qualification and functional tests applicable for air borne systems.

The CSS for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been designed by the DRDO as two separate sub systems and two such indigenous LCAs have been inducted into the Indian Air Force on July 1, 2016, and will feature prominently in the force’s combat plan next year, the IAF has said.

“The CSS can be called the fastest ejection system available right now. It was tested successfully in seat ejection trials at London and Moscow,” said Deodhar.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Jan 2017 15:30

Note :- Twelve HJT-36

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jan 2017 06:39

data point:

“We can establish an assembly facility in India within 18-24 months, with about 10-15 per cent indigenisation of the fighter. But it would take four years to get 30 per cent indigenisation, and at least seven years to indigenise 45-50 per cent of the fighter”, says a senior official from one of the OEMs that received the RFI.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Jan 2017 10:03

NRao wrote:data point:

“We can establish an assembly facility in India within 18-24 months, with about 10-15 per cent indigenisation of the fighter. But it would take four years to get 30 per cent indigenisation, and at least seven years to indigenise 45-50 per cent of the fighter”, says a senior official from one of the OEMs that received the RFI.

Some of us have already have been saying this on top of our voices right from starting.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2017 19:06

And before that

1. The strategic partner policy has to be finalized,
2. The strategic partner chosen,
3. Indian partner chosen,
4. By that time, it is 2018, so election time,
5. New Indian facility will need land. Not just for the assembly line, but an adjoining airstrip.
6. Then, the assembly line has to be set up and new men trained.

Then the 10%, 20%, 30%, 50% rona-dhona. Do the math yourselves.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jan 2017 21:05

@Indranil @JayS

None of the above facts apply to the F-Solah. The massive global supply chain will negate all the above issues. A weapon-free F-Solah, B7O will be $45 million ONLEE!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jan 2017 21:22

Reading all this, my simple conclusion is: China will be the GREAT equalizer. And, a nation, galloping at 8-10% GDP, can more than afford the last minute gap fillers. Why waste time when there is plenty of time.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2017 11:23

The solution stares us in the face. But it is boring and less flash-bang than manufacturing F-16 in India.

1. It is far more faster and easier to double the production rate of LCAs by HAL. If falling numbers is a concern, multiply LCAs production rate. We can go to 32 aircraft per year in 4-5 years with 60-70 % indigenous content.

2. Let HAL run with LCA, i.e. manufacture mk1s, MK1As and 128 MK1Bs (MK1As with modified inlets and powered by 414s). By 2027, India could add 15 squadrons.

3. Get LM as the strategic partner with ADA to design and develop AMCA and a single engine stealth LCA, both powered by 414s. Identify two private partners to compete to become production agency, aka ATAGS model. Let the fun begin.

Nothing will shore up numbers faster.
Nothing will develop desi design and manufacturing capability faster.
Nothing will bring the private players online faster.
Nothing will provide fall back options better.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 29 Jan 2017 11:38

^intentions are well and good, but capabilities are what counts. Uncle Sam will control rate of production though the GE404 engine.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jan 2017 16:00

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
They don't replace complete engines anymore. Just replace critical parts. Only one engine lasts entire a/c life. Considering spare parts replacement its effectively less than 2 engines. 6000h life for engine is possible without even changing any key parts.
Western engines yes. Not sure about Russian ones. The Russians started off with relatively inexpensive engines that would be replaced after x hours.

This happens with engines that are modular by design.

Ruski engines are modular too. eg the engine of the IN MiG 29K is modular.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jan 2017 16:15

Neshant wrote:DRDO’s pilot ejection system in private hands

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities ... s-4488425/
The Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and the High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), who have developed the Canopy Severance System (CSS) for smooth ejection of a pilot in case of an emergency with a military aircraft, transferred the technology to two Hyderabad-based private firms this week.

The CSS provided smooth passage by preweakening the cockpit canopy in the shortest possible time and has been supplied by the DRDO so far. Presently, the system has been integrated on 15 Tejas, 12 HJT-36, 2 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) trainer and naval versions and the first HTT-40 aircraft.

“This system cuts the canopy in a matter of 10 to 20 milliseconds (wow, that's pretty fast cutting) and is the fastest of its kind. Other systems used for this purpose are likely to affect the pilot’s neck and knee since they either throw out the canopy (jettison) or use fragilisation, where the canopy is broken to pieces,” explained Kashinath Deodhar, divisional head of the project at ARDE.

Dr K M Rajan, scientist and director, ARDE, and KPS Murthy, scientist and director, HEMRL, signed the deal on January 20 with senior representatives of Gulf Oil Corporation and Premier Explosives for the production of the DRDO-developed CSS. These firms will be now supplying eight sets each in the first phase, after fulfilling all the set qualification and functional tests applicable for air borne systems.

The CSS for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been designed by the DRDO as two separate sub systems and two such indigenous LCAs have been inducted into the Indian Air Force on July 1, 2016, and will feature prominently in the force’s combat plan next year, the IAF has said.

“The CSS can be called the fastest ejection system available right now. It was tested successfully in seat ejection trials at London and Moscow,” said Deodhar.

The harrier already had such a system when inducted. It's called the pyro cord and this helps to shatter the canopy just prior to the ejection.

In the Martin Baker H4HA seat on the Kiran, there are canopy piercers that project above the ejection seat that mechanically shatter the canopy during the exit.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2017 19:09

This cockpit video shows the parallel lines of the canopy shattering explosive of the Tejas above the pilot's head
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmyGkN3uLj0

I also have hi speed images of the same being tested on Tejas - posted on BRF long ago but I need to search through archives that are way too big now with uninformative filenames like P266585.jpg

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2017 19:19

The mechanism is different. Notice that the desi cord doesn't zigzag over the top of the canopy. This is because: Unlike the western counterparts, the desi canopy (like the French) is not shattered. Instead it is 'cut' using a super fast detonation at the periphery. This single large piece then flies off leaving behind a clear path for the pilot to eject. This mitigates the small chance of the pilot encountering a sharp jagged edge of a shattered canopy.

Even LCA seats have the shell tooth. In fact the flight test program was delayed by three and a half months just before IOC because of it. The new helmets protruded above the old seat design. So the tooth needed extension, and the an extra explosive cord was added above the pilots head for abundant caution.