Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nits » 19 Jan 2017 12:28

Image

She is a Beauty

First image of Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) developed VC 11184 ocean surveillance ship ordered by Ministry of Defence for studies in Oceans has surfaced recently. VC 11184 was floated out last April by HSL and now is currently going through the fitting-out process...

On a side note we should have more Shipyards having roof cover like we see in this pic; at least we can save our ships from prying satellite eyes till they are in Build Stage

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nits » 19 Jan 2017 12:31


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 19 Jan 2017 15:57

Pratyush wrote:I don't think that a ship can be classified by its tonnage. Rather what it is tasked by the operator and what it was designed to do. if the navy says that they are OPVs then they are OPV. If the navy calls a 3000 ton ship a corvette I will accept that designation as the operator is calling it that. As a chair born keyboard commando I will not go beyond that. Though I will try to understand the perspective of the navy as to why it is a corvette.


Very True, Pratyushji, but the tonnage gives an idea on the size and the strength of a ship and like I had mentioned earlier that the OPV's that I have read up on are neither this large nor this heavy whereas most of the corvettes were. Now what the Navy calls it would be based on the roles that she is kitted out to perform. So if the Navy calls the Saryu class vessels as OPV's they are OPV's but they sure have the strength and size required to convert them to a light frigate or decently equipped corvette standard, and that is what I was alluding to.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 19 Jan 2017 20:25

Also missile weaponry has given light tonnage vessels a terrific punch akin to heavy cruiser of yesteryears.

Also if one look a at history of naval battles, since the Napoleonic wars the size of battle fleets in any engagement has gone down. It got revived in the Pacific theater during World War II between US and Imperial Japanese fleets. Most ships at sea are now engaged in anti-submarine warfare and convoy escort which is the same.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 19 Jan 2017 21:49

Pratyush wrote:
titash wrote:
Pratyush-ji, one thing stands out. No OPV for high endurance patrolling & piracy watch requires stealth shaping, or chaff/decoys, or stealth 76mm gunhouse, or 30 mm gatling guns. This ship is meant to face an incoming exocet/harpoon at some point.

Otherwise we'd simply have ordered the coast guard's "Samarth Class" version of this OPV...far cheaper and equally capable in



That may well be true but we are looking at 2 separate generation of designes. The coastguard ship is a generation behind when it comes to the saryu class. Taking into consideration the generational difference in design, the Navy ship is reflecting the size and shape.

The role is still OPV.


Minor nitpick pratyush-ji...the IN's Saryu design actually predates the Samarth class design. The Samarth class has "lessons learnt" from the Saryu class. It's just a cheaper non-stealthy variant.

If the role is purely OPV, why pay for stealth + chaff/decoys + 30mm CIWS? none of these are necessary for presence and patrol. You don't need to buy a $100 million F-35 where a $30 million MiG-29 will suffice just because it's new-gen.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 19 Jan 2017 22:03

ramana wrote:Also missile weaponry has given light tonnage vessels a terrific punch akin to heavy cruiser of yesteryears.

Also if one look a at history of naval battles, since the Napoleonic wars the size of battle fleets in any engagement has gone down. It got revived in the Pacific theater during World War II between US and Imperial Japanese fleets. Most ships at sea are now engaged in anti-submarine warfare and convoy escort which is the same.


Ironically, missile weaponry also renders smaller vessels obsolete. Smaller craft simply don't have the sea-keeping, endurance, and survivability to fulfill any meaningful naval roles when your opponent has any meaningful air element.

The last 2 large naval engagements (Iraqi navy FACs ambushed by RN/USN helicopters) and the Falklands (at least 4 frigates sunk and several damaged by low-end SkyHawks/Etendards) ended in a massacre for small surface ships. They simply can't carry a meaningful point defence radar/missile system or survive a bomb hit.

The USN has made a conscious choice to move to an all heavy-cruiser-sized force of Ticonderoga/Arleigh Burke class ships that have a reasonable chance of fighting and surviving.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 19 Jan 2017 22:13

Image

Gurus can comment on the radar installations on India s BMD and tracking ship VC 11184 (the Ocean Surveillance Ship)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby darshhan » 19 Jan 2017 22:16

titash wrote:
Ironically, missile weaponry also renders smaller vessels obsolete. Smaller craft simply don't have the sea-keeping, endurance, and survivability to fulfill any meaningful naval roles when your opponent has any meaningful air element.

The last 2 large naval engagements (Iraqi navy FACs ambushed by RN/USN helicopters) and the Falklands (at least 4 frigates sunk and several damaged by low-end SkyHawks/Etendards) ended in a massacre for small surface ships. They simply can't carry a meaningful point defence radar/missile system or survive a bomb hit.

The USN has made a conscious choice to move to an all heavy-cruiser-sized force of Ticonderoga/Arleigh Burke class ships that have a reasonable chance of fighting and surviving.


Well rate of technological progress is enough to blindside most. Check this out.

Piranha unmanned surface vessel

The Piranha Unmanned Surface Vessel (USV or unmanned surface vehicle) is a watercraft developed by Zyvex Marine (a division of Zyvex Technologies, formerly Zyvex Performance Materials) in 2010. The boat is 54’ in length and weighs just 8,000 lbs. The Piranha is the first USV to utilize a lightweight carbon-nanotube enhanced composite material called Arovex, which allows the watercraft to weigh "significantly less" than any other USV.[1][2]

The weight advantage from Arovex gives the Piranha a Payload capacity of 15,000 lbs and a range of over 2,500 miles. Additionally, the carbon-nanotubes actually provide a strength increase of 20-50% over traditional materials.[3] With those characteristics, the Piranha is expected to be sold as a possible tool for anti-piracy, search and rescue, submarine hunting, and harbor patrol.[4]

The first Piranha began construction in February 2010 with an anticipated completion date of summer 2010.[5] The Piranha underwent sea trials near Seattle's Puget Sound during the months of October and November 2010. [6]

The Piranha concluded approximately 6 months and 600 nautical miles of sea trials in Washington state and Oregon state on April 4, 2011


Company link

Zyvex Technologies announced that its 54' boat named Piranha completed sea trials early this morning near Puget Sound in the Pacific Ocean, demonstrating record fuel efficiency. After six months of extensive testing, the Piranha completed its final sea trial – an approximate 600 nautical mile (nm) rough-weather sea test off the shores of Washington and Oregon. Piranha finished the tests in time to travel for its debut at the Sea Air Space show near Washington, DC, on April 11th.

A conventional aluminum or fiberglass boat would have consumed 50 gallons or more per hour at cruise speed, while test results prove that Piranha consumed only 12 gallons of fuel per hour while cruising at 25 knots. The Piranha demonstrates Zyvex Technologies' ability to produce products with nano-enhanced materials that are 40% stronger than metals, such as aluminum, and result in significant weight reduction and increased fuel efficiency.

Made with 21st century advanced carbon fiber infused with carbon nanotubes (CNTs), the Piranha is the first boat built with CNTs. Weighing only 8,400 pounds, compared to boats of similar size that typically weigh 40,000 pounds, the Piranha is 75% lighter, making it easier to transport and cost-effective to operate.

"Our chemists molecularly engineer better materials and our designers and engineers make the world's strongest materials more useful," says Lance Criscuolo, president of Zyvex Technologies. "Metal boats have come a long way over the past 150 years, but it's only possible to reach new standards of performance using next-generation advanced composite materials."

Piranha can travel 2,800 nm without refueling and has operated in open-ocean conditions with waves exceeding 12 feet.Russell Belden, vice president of Zyvex Technologies, notes that other similar sized vessels built from heavier materials can only travel 450 nm without refueling and have limited rough-weather performance.

"The lightweight Piranha delivers significantly better fuel efficiency and capability than any vessel this size. The most expensive part of operating a boat can be the fuel costs. Since the Piranha gets 2.5 miles per gallon going 25 knots, its operators would only spend one fourth as much on operating costs," said Belden.

The Piranha will begin demonstrations on the East Coast with an appearance at the Sea Air Space exposition. With initial sea trials complete, defense contractors are evaluating the Piranha for use as an unmanned platform with a variety of mission applications, including anti-piracy, harbor patrol, and oceanographic surveying. While in Norfolk, VA, Zyvex Technologies will also continue further integration of unmanned systems on the Piranha.

"Zyvex Technologies is redefining standards for building and designing stronger and lighter products for civilian and defense uses. Our technology, demonstrated by the Piranha, is a great option for better maritime vessels, manned and unmanned. There's nothing else on the water that has this combination of speed, efficiency, payload, and range. More and more structures will be built with our nano-enhanced advanced composites, taking industries such as marine, defense, and infrastructure to entirely new levels," says Criscuolo.


This is how it looks.

Image

The future of naval warfare will be dictated by vessels like this and not billion dollar carriers or cruisers.
Last edited by darshhan on 19 Jan 2017 22:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 22:16

US Pacific commander admits US-India jointly tracking Chinese submarines
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/01/us-pacific-commander-admits-us-india.html

“We work closely with India to improve India’s capability to do that kind of surveillance… I don’t want to say too much, but there is sharing of information regarding Chinese maritime movements in the Indian Ocean”, admits Harris, who refers to Chinese submarines in these waters as “clearly an issue”.

“For example with the P-8 aircraft, we’ll be able to do more interoperable activities. The P8 is the world’s most capable anti-submarine platform. India has the P8I, we have the P8A, but they’re not interoperable because they have different communications systems. In order to maximize the potential of these airplanes in the Indian Ocean against [Chinese] submarines, we need to move this agreement forward so that we can have communications interoperability and make it actually happen”, explained Harris.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 22:27

Faslane-based Marines take part in operation with Indian Navy
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/faslane-based-marines-take-part-9651682

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 23:06

Is this photo-shopped or is this real?

http://tinyurl.com/jp6bk6x

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 23:48

INAS 303 'The Black Panthers' from my recent visit to INS Hansa, Dabolim
https://twitter.com/ruskievityazi/statu ... 8965173249

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 20 Jan 2017 03:00

kit, hide the image lest Philip complains about quality of paint.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 20 Jan 2017 03:15

ramana wrote:kit, hide the image lest Philip complains about quality of paint.


Just a pre makeup morning view with bed head and Philip has rosy colored glasses on for Natasha! Even large gaping holes are invisible to him. So not to worry! :lol:
Last edited by Cybaru on 20 Jan 2017 07:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ranjan.rao » 20 Jan 2017 05:54

is it a museum plane? there seems to be some kind of placard on bottom right which is generally seen around museum exhibits..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 10:22

>> The future of naval warfare will be dictated by vessels like this and not billion dollar carriers or cruisers

they can supplement sea monitoring and denial efforts but are simply too inflexible for sea control. how does it for example track and capture a pirate vessel? threaten to fire a torpedo on it over a remotely operated loud hailer? SAR needs airborne assets to spot and such helis themselves rescue with baskets. a unmanned piranha is next to useless for SAR unless some rescuers be onboard to guide the affected survivors.

give me a brawny 7000t sensor packed hull and 2 meaty helis anyday over a swarm of these piranhas...it can attack land targets upto 1500km away and track and attack low flying satellites and BMs upto 300km away. and surveil anything in a R=500km bubble.

for doomsday attacks like the massive undersea midget sub delivered bomb the russians are developing it is great idea.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 20 Jan 2017 11:14

ramana wrote:kit, hide the image lest Philip complains about quality of paint.


:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 20 Jan 2017 11:17

Noob pooch. Most IN frigates and destroyers are able to carry two choppers. My question is, can the length of the Ship be increased by 10 meters or so, and the hangar enlarged to embark four choppers?

With universal launchers, I can imagine a reconfigurable ship that can be turned into an sub hunter with ASW choppers and long range anti sub missiles, or an AAW ship with AEW choppers and long range SAMs..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Jan 2017 11:24

Sure it can and so can we sail our carrier/s into the Indo-China Sea as well. The Q is the survivability of either CBG,why one is more concerned of the presence of PLAN subs in collusion with P{aki subs. The old number of subs reqd. by the IN,24,is obsolete.We need at least 24 diesel/AIP boats and a min. of 12 N-subs both SSBNs and SSGN/SSNs.What the IN should search for is a small inexpensive robust design of diesel/AIP boat for the littorals,which can be built/acquired v.fast and in large number.Oner is not sure what the price of an Amur/Lada is-it was touted years ago at being better and cheaper than a Kilo ($300+M) and prod. has restarted in Russia,but any wetsern boat will cost nothing less than $500M.Our Scorpenes are costing us even more.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chinese- ... er-1650420

Chinese Aircraft Carrier Can Sail Into Indian Ocean At Will, Says Top US Commander
All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: January 19, 2017 11:02 IST

Chinese Aircraft Carrier Can Sail Into Indian Ocean At Will, Says Top US Commander
India should be concerned about the increased Chinese influence in Indian Ocean, says top US commander

US commander warns of China's rising influence in Indian Ocean
India, US jointly surveilling Chinese warships: Admiral Harry Harris Jr.
China has also deployed nuclear attack submarines in the last 3 years
In a direct assessment of the increasing presence of the Chinese Navy in waters off the coast of India, Admiral Harry Harris Jr., the Commander of the United States Pacific Command has said, "I believe India should be concerned about the increased Chinese influence. If you believe there is only a finite amount of influence in the region, then whatever influence that China has is influence that India doesn't have.''

The Admiral, whose is responsible for the US military operations over an area which encompasses roughly 52 per cent of the Earth's surface, minces no words in describing Chinese Naval activity in the Indian Ocean, an issue which is a matter of concern for the Indian Navy.

Asked by NDTV whether he foresees a possibility of a Chinese aircraft carrier battlegroup operating in the Indian Ocean, the Admiral said, "Clearly. Clearly. There's nothing to prevent them from sailing in the Indian Ocean today.'' The Admiral was quick to add that Chinese aircraft carriers are presently unable to maintain the operational tempo of larger US aircraft carriers which can conduct operations day and night. At the same time, the Indian Navy, the Admiral said, ''has far more expertise in operating aircraft carriers than China has and experience and expertise over time matter."

Confirming that the US and Indian forces are collaborating in tracking the movement of Chinese warships and submarines, the Admiral said, ''We work closely to do that kind of surveillance.'' When asked by NDTV to define how this worked, the Admiral said, "I don't want to get into it too much but there is sharing of information regarding the real time movement of Chinese assets."

As reported by NDTV , the Indian Navy has been relying extensively on its fleet of US-made Boeing P8-I anti-submarine warfare jets to track the movement of Chinese submarines operating in the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian Sea. Admiral Harris said a lot more can be done to share data between the US Navy and the Indian Navy if India were to sign the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), which allows the secure exchange of military information between US military partner nations.

"The P8 is the world's best and most capable anti-submarine warfare platform. India has the P8-I. We have the P8-A but they are not entirely compatible because of different communication systems. Therefore, to maximise the potential and the airframe, here in the Indian Ocean against those submarines we were talking about, we need to move this agreement forward," Admiral Harris said.

Over the last three years, China has deployed nuclear attack submarines in the Indian Ocean region along with fleet support ships and warships, apparently to fight piracy off the coast of Somalia. The Indian Navy believes that the Chinese presence in these waters has less to do with the fight against lightly armed Somali pirates and more to do with Beijing's elaborate plans to strategically encircle India by establishing ports and military facilities in the Indian Ocean region.

Last May, a Chinese nuclear attack submarine had docked at Karachi harbor and embarked Pakistani personnel, a move which the Indian Navy believes may be a prelude to Islamabad leasing a Chinese nuclear submarine. According to Admiral Harris, "I think the relationship between China and Pakistan is a bit of a concern. A strong and prosperous China is not in itself a bad thing. But it's when that strength and prosperity is turned into aggression and is encouraged that it becomes a problem for all of us and not only India."


https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017011810 ... cean-navy/
India Set to Increase its Naval Arc in Indian Ocean
In fact, India is going by the dictum that, “Whoever controls the Indian Ocean dominates Asia.”

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 11:37

sudeepj wrote:Noob pooch. Most IN frigates and destroyers are able to carry two choppers. My question is, can the length of the Ship be increased by 10 meters or so, and the hangar enlarged to embark four choppers?

With universal launchers, I can imagine a reconfigurable ship that can be turned into an sub hunter with ASW choppers and long range anti sub missiles, or an AAW ship with AEW choppers and long range SAMs..


3 Sh60 sized helis have only ever been carried in the japani haruna/shirane class ASW DDG leader ships. 7000t x 153m x 17.5m ... about our P15B size .... but specialized for ASW ,with ASROC missiles also.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 11:42

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 11:44

most of the smaller LPH ships also fall into that bucket like our own USS trenton - 6 sea king helis.

we should really go for such ships say around 10,000t with 6 ASW helos as leaders of ASW task forces and capable of DDG speed without the bulk of any marine or LST storage...pure play nuova Haruna-mki.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vonkabra » 20 Jan 2017 11:57

shiv wrote:
shaun wrote:i never new these "Transition .." series of books are available online !! here https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/books

Many many thanks. If we could have a "Page 1" ref for Navy threads like the shitistan threads - this should go on there


The formatting of the ebooks is screwed up - take a look from page 28 onward in Transition to Truimph and you'll get the idea. I had mailed the webmaster of the site a month back requesting them to fix the problem but haven't got a reply till date.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby bmallick » 20 Jan 2017 13:08

These USV can be used as a compliment to the helicopter, especially in the ASW role. The biggest advantage of the USV over a helicopter is endurance/persistence. Which means that we can use them as a platform with dipping sonar deployed 30-50 km away/ahead of the mother ship and do so over longer hours, compared to a helicopter. However, the helicopter has the advantage of speed and reach over 200-300 km and can be used as the prosecutor of a contact and attack it.

Majority of the time in ASW would always be spent in searching, which is where the USV's endurance and cost of operation compared to a Helicopter is advantageous. However, in the attack phase, the helicopters speed and range, gives greater flexibility.

Thus the Ship can be the hand holding the spear, the USV the shaft of the spear, extending the reach and helicopter the pointed tip.

Maybe, our Frigates/Destroyer can carry 2-4 such USV's along with 1-2 helicopters.

I found the following link detailing a study on the same.

http://calhoun.nps.edu/bitstream/handle/10945/45955/15Jun_Unlu_Salim.pdf?sequence=1

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 13:22

yes definitely these low cost swarms can even go active if needed without endangering the mothership. but a automated means to dock with the mothership in significant sea state at the stern has to be arranged so that equipment may be repaired & inspected and fuel loaded.
or a separate submarine tender or mini-LPD kind of ship has to sail with the group to care of the herd.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Jan 2017 13:32

Posted many a time how the west was surprised at the two build stds. Flankers and Fulcrums,when first exhibited outside the USSR at Farnborough. The 29s were of an external lesser build quality,designed specifically to be built fast and in large numbers,which however even legacy E.German 29s were found superior in air combat to W.German F-16s. IAF 29s similarly (AM Masand in Vayu) got the better everytime of M-2000s in IAF execrises!

It would be worthwhile however to examine the quality of brand new 29/29Ks and ones which have been in service for a while. Same with our MKIs.Pics in the past of new 29Ks show a v.decent quality of finish.I am sure that if they weren't upto quality,the IN would've rejected them.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby bmallick » 20 Jan 2017 13:56

Maybe,there can be a manual mode, whereby, an operator can take over for docking related operations.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 20 Jan 2017 14:01

Philip wrote:Posted many a time how the west was surprised at the two build stds. Flankers and Fulcrums,when first exhibited outside the USSR at Farnborough. The 29s were of an external lesser build quality,designed specifically to be built fast and in large numbers,which however even legacy E.German 29s were found superior in air combat to W.German F-16s. IAF 29s similarly (AM Masand in Vayu) got the better everytime of M-2000s in IAF execrises!

It would be worthwhile however to examine the quality of brand new 29/29Ks and ones which have been in service for a while. Same with our MKIs.Pics in the past of new 29Ks show a v.decent quality of finish.I am sure that if they weren't upto quality,the IN would've rejected them.

No such thing as a "W. German F-16". For all of its maneuverability, the MiG-29 was never competitive with the F-16, F-18 or Mirage 2000 when it came to avionics, mission systems, flight range, multi-role capability, reliability or serviceability.

As for the MiG-29K, its serviceability remains nothing short of atrocious. The IN has all but excluded it from its future fighter planning. Just as the IAF has done vis a vis the MiG-35.

Image


"Since induction in February 2010, 40 engines (62 percent) of twin-engined MiG-29K have been withdrawn from service/rejected due to design-related defects." - CAG

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 14:29

since TSP has gone all in for the Thundar with the same engine I wonder how they are faring on uptime front?
must be a carefully hidden secret.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Ashokk » 20 Jan 2017 14:40

kit wrote:Gurus can comment on the radar installations on India s BMD and tracking ship VC 11184 (the Ocean Surveillance Ship)

REVEALED: India’s Next ‘Advanced Technology Vessel’
The ship will be primarily tasked with missile tracking using two sensors, possibly an X-Band AESA primary radar and an S-Band AESA secondary radar, ranging and electronic intelligence (ELINT) gathering, making it the first ship of its kind to join Indian service.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby suryag » 20 Jan 2017 14:45

Mig29 is an airshow queen, nothing more, it sucks in almost every aspect and had it not been for the able hands of IAF it would have remained like those soviet ekranoplanes. IAF(and now IN) use it to the fullest possible extent and are the brand ambassador for the 29s

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 20 Jan 2017 18:31

The Russians show you how much faith they had in the MiG-29K by loading only four of the crap on the Kuznetsov during that mighty, headline grabbing cruise to Syria. Considering that SU-33 had been out of productions for years, the 29K should have constituted the whole fixed-wing portion of the air wing with 25 plus planes. Four is a pathetic token force that was useless except to perhaps to show the GOI that it didn't sell them a complete lemon.

We really need to look seriously at the F-18 line coming to an end in the US circa 2019. Though the Rafale M is not a bad choice either and gives commonality with the IAF. The Navy has already given us their view of the MiG-29K by looking for another twin-engine carrier plane so soon after induction of this turkey.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 20 Jan 2017 18:45

Going forward f35b will probably be on the short list!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 20 Jan 2017 18:49

We really need to look seriously at the F-18 line coming to an end in the US circa 2019.


That's not going to be happening. Expect the Super Hornet to be in production, well into the early 2020's.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 20:26

rather than pining for unobtainium like san antonio or mistral ships, these basic LPD of dutch design like rotterdam class 15000t x 170m armed with 6 large helicopter is just what we need as ASW squadron leaders. it has room for 600 marines and 32 MBTs, and a well deck for LST. it also has a hospital.

we can use some of the room it has for marines and tanks to house more of ASW mission suite, more fuel, more powerful engines, command flag staff and so on...while retaining a secondary marine support option.a couple of rapid fire 127mm guns in the front.

we should retire the trenton, build 4 of these type and empower our ASW task forces ... its definitely the cheapest LPD option out there. unmanned piranha ships can also use the well deck in future.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nits » 20 Jan 2017 20:49

As an option - In War time we can use a Commercial Cargo ship to act as Helicopter carrier for us...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2017 21:40

thats not going to work, for many reasons including ship speed, lack of repair facility, lack of aviation fuel storage, lack of proper deck and landing strapdown system.......

in any case, war is 0.01% of the time. we need a 365 day platform

rotterdam class is fairly austere, merchant shipish in many respects to keep the cost and complexity low. ideal for cash strapped folks like us.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 20 Jan 2017 22:18

Viv S wrote:..
... For all of its maneuverability, the MiG-29 was never competitive with the F-16, F-18 or Mirage 2000 when it came to avionics, mission systems, flight range, multi-role capability, reliability or serviceability.

As for the MiG-29K, its serviceability remains nothing short of atrocious. The IN has all but excluded it from its future fighter planning. Just as the IAF has done vis a vis the MiG-35.

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"Since induction in February 2010, 40 engines (62 percent) of twin-engined MiG-29K have been withdrawn from service/rejected due to design-related defects." - CAG


Sell these turkeys to any one of the current operators like Peru/Ukraine.

Russians play games line this
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articl ... 9-2013.asp


Bite the bullet and replace them with F-35Bs Just make sure that the deck plating can absorb the heat. :)
Last edited by Cosmo_R on 20 Jan 2017 22:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Jan 2017 22:24

Singha wrote:thats not going to work, for many reasons including ship speed, lack of repair facility, lack of aviation fuel storage, lack of proper deck and landing strapdown system.......

in any case, war is 0.01% of the time. we need a 365 day platform

rotterdam class is fairly austere, merchant shipish in many respects to keep the cost and complexity low. ideal for cash strapped folks like us.




Technical facilities, crew accommodation etc can easily be built into containers and avionics stuff in air conditioned containers. This is not a biggie.

Strap down systems will not cause any difficulty at all. The recovery system just cannot be installed. Roll and pitch limitations will restrict helo operations as will weather conditions. But these restrictions are also imposed on helo carrying war ships.

IIRC, a british harrier in trouble actually landed on a merchantman at sea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alraigo_incident

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD4oiBSXGDM




from wiki

On 7 June 1983[3] Sub Lieutenant Ian "Soapy" Watson was a junior Royal Navy Pilot undertaking his first NATO exercise from HMS Illustrious, which was operating off the coast of Portugal. Watson was launched in a pair of aircraft tasked with locating a French aircraft carrier under combat conditions including radio-silence and radar switched off.

After completing the search Watson flew to an arranged meeting point with his flight leader. When the flight leader did not appear Watson turned towards Invincible expecting it to appear on the radar; when he was unable to find the carrier he made a radio transmission. It was at this stage he realized his radio was not working and the NAVHARS (inertial navigation system) had not taken him back to the expected location for landing.

As Sea Harrier ZA176 began to run low on fuel Watson turned the aircraft East towards a known shipping lane making radar contact with a surface vessel at 50 mi (80 km). At 12 mi (19 km) he made visual contact with the container ship Alraigo and initially planned to eject in sight of the vessel.

After performing an initial fly-by of the Alraigo Watson noticed that the ship was carrying a number of flat topped containers similar in size to a practice landing pad. The container was carrying a base plate for a telescope being delivered to the La Palma Observatory in the Canary Islands.[4] On his second approach Watson landed the Sea Harrier on top of the shipping container with only a few minutes of flight time to spare. As he touched down the aircraft began to slide backwards on the wet surface. Watson attempted to retract the landing gear to arrest the slide but this failed and the aircraft slipped backwards off the container and onto the roof of a van parked on the deck. The van partially held up the fuselage and stopped a further slide.

Four days later a considerable international media presence witnessed the Alraigo sail into dock at Santa Cruz de Tenerife with the Sea Harrier still perched on its container. The aircraft was salvageable, and the ship's crew and owners were awarded £570,000 compensation.[1] When Watson returned to the Illustrious, a Board of Inquiry essentially did nothing. But when the Illustrious returned to port, Watson underwent a second Board of Inquiry.

In 2007, Britain’s National Archives released a number of Royal Navy files, and the second inquiry report was finally made public. Noting that Watson had completed only 75 percent of his training before he had been sent to sea, the board blamed Watson’s inexperience, and his commanders for assigning him an airplane “not fully prepared for the sortie,” a reference to radio problems. Nonetheless, Watson was reprimanded and given a desk job.

Watson eventually acquired 2,000 hours in Sea Harriers and another 900 in F/A-18s before resigning his commission in 1996. Today, he says that media attention embarrassed Royal Navy brass and caused the punishment, but refuses to point fingers. “It was me,” he says. “I was there and that’s where it should stop.” [1]

Sea Harrier ZA176 was converted to the FA2 variant in 1992 and retired from service 20 September 2003. The aircraft is now on display at Newark Air Museum in Nottinghamshire England in its FA2 configuration

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 20 Jan 2017 22:34

Singha wrote:rotterdam class is fairly austere, merchant shipish in many respects to keep the cost and complexity low. ideal for cash strapped folks like us.


Any reviews on how the Navy liked the AUstin class LPD? Get the only other surviving member after refurbishing to solve immediate needs?


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