Understanding US thread-III

komal · Post by **komal** » 26 Jan 2017 12:35

TSJones wrote:
Why can't the US implement a positive voter identification system like there is India? More than 700 million people voted and presented positive photo voter identification. Yes, it too some 7-9 years to implement and it still has some gaps, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages of not have positive voter identification.
because it is a tool of racism and will be used to keep minorities from voting.

everybody knows this.

historically the southern states employed laws like poll taxes and literacy tests to keep minorities from voting.

therefore they will also use photo ID for the same purpose,

that's the liberal viewpoint anyway..........

Not sure of the process to get a voter id in India. Having lived in the South -- there are definitely two standards one for white males and one for everyone else.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2017 13:57

i think it is Idaho that has passed a law for registering voters soon as they get a state driving license. that takes away the trick of disenfranchisement

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 26 Jan 2017 19:03

Rep Tusli Gabbard's just concluded visit to Syria and her subsequent message tells you people who get the central message of Bhagvad Gita can do things like this regardless of race, religion. Tulsi gabbard gets the central message of Gita.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 26 Jan 2017 19:10

LokeshC wrote:
They can do a lot of damage with that money.

What is the biggest macroeconomic story sinvce last year? Shortage of euro dollars. Yes they can print and distribute. But they wont because the return on investment is poor.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 26 Jan 2017 19:19

komal wrote:
A lot of eywash. Nothing is happening. Lot of headlines to make his followers happy. USA controls the world through these organizations.

Indeed. I would recommend Civilization: The West and the Rest by Niall Fergusson. https://www.amazon.com/Civilization-Wes ... 0143122061

The organisational structure of therese institutions is fraying at the seams.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 Jan 2017 20:15

like poll taxes and literacy tests

The story of the Spelling Test comes to mind: Black voter in Al Obama or Jawjuh:

White voter comes up:

Ma'm please spell CAT. Oh, great, here you go!

Bwaoy, who do you think you are, coming here to vote n'all? Let's see! Spell Constitutional Hierarchy.

Totally "fair" system.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2017 20:40

panduranghari wrote:
komal wrote:
A lot of eywash. Nothing is happening. Lot of headlines to make his followers happy. USA controls the world through these organizations.
Indeed. I would recommend Civilization: The West and the Rest by Niall Fergusson. https://www.amazon.com/Civilization-Wes ... 0143122061

The organisational structure of therese institutions is fraying at the seams.

NATO is past its use date.
It was created when European states were rebuilding after the devastation of World War II and could not defend themselves. So they needed an alliance. But now Europeans have a collective GDP equivalent to the US and a population larger than the US. They have a substantial industrial base. Further the US now faces strategic challenges in Pacific East Asia and in Middle East. NATO does not care for these areas.

Coming to free trade, it was imperative to grow the economy regardless of the societal blowback to challenge the Command economy of the Soviet Union and to draw in China into the modern economic world. Now the societal blowback in a democracy could undo the Washington political stability. So need to re look that area too.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 26 Jan 2017 20:46

Suraj wrote:What's the end game here, though ? Do people go on talking about Trump until Jan 20 2021 ? When does talk about election 2016 stop ?

It will stop when folks don't try to shut down other views and opinions. It will stop when people don't have to twist their knickers about Trump (positive or negative). Just treat an argument at its own merit.

Trump claims that millions of illegals voted and that's why he lost popular vote. This is a claim that has no evidence. He is not talking about hacking EVMs. He's talking in person voting by illegals. This is such a demonstrably false claim. Voters need to be registered to be able to vote. Voters are tallied against registered rolls. You cannot just walk in and vote if your name is not on the list. One person here claims that voting booths were kept open longer. So? You still have to be on the list and you still have to provide some form of id to be able to vote and votes casted needs to be still tallied against lists. Millions of people impersonating somebody else is quite ridiculous. Million of people being added to rolls which goes through vetting by local political bodies is also quite a ridiculous claim. If anything, it is the GOP that has been caught playing foul with registration lists by taking out or keeping out legitimate voters. Some amount of foul play is probably there, but millions?

I've moved on from elections. Apparently Trump has not - since he still feels the urge to keep exaggerating his popularity (this and the inauguration crowd issue).

And the rah rah Trump crowd here too cannot brook any opinions contrary as well, just like Trump. It has to be shouted down and shut down, facts be damned.

I personally have no urge to defend or attack Trump. Not a US citizen and he is not my president and beyond some concerns about immigration and general well being of Indians in US - I don't have much invested about domestic issues in US and how Trump may affect them. I have concerns about influence of Manafort types towards India policies and climate change etc but I am not going to be arguing here daily about those either. I have opinions about several of his executive orders - the wall, the obamacare, the EPA muzzling, the cabinet choice, this , that etc etc etc...I am not going to be posting all that here.

But are things at such a pass that even pointing out a ridiculously false claim from Trump that 'millions voted illegally' have to invite such reactions? That is the only question I have.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 26 Jan 2017 20:52

disha wrote:
Gus wrote:New brf rule - modified: No media can ever report anything Trump says ever as lies because media cannot be allowed to have double standards. Or George Soros. Or something like that. Now shut up.
Gus'ji - will I be allowed to say that @2Million latinos on the voter list of US are illegal?

You are allowed to say anything. Unlike some, I am not in favor of shouting down or muzzling any opinion as long as it is expressed civilly. I will either ask for proof or choose to ignore.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 26 Jan 2017 21:03

Madeleine Halfbright ‘ready to become Muslim’ to protest Trump’s immigration policy

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Jan 2017 21:41

Gus wrote: You are allowed to say anything. Unlike some, I am not in favor of shouting down or muzzling any opinion as long as it is expressed civilly. I will either ask for proof or choose to ignore.

+100

If discussions are not free and fair then they become useless.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 26 Jan 2017 21:58

Donald J. TrumpVerified account
‏@realDonaldTrump
The U.S. has a 60 billion dollar trade deficit with Mexico. It has been a one-sided deal from the beginning of NAFTA with massive numbers of jobs and companies lost. If Mexico is unwilling to pay for the badly needed wall, then it would be better to cancel the upcoming meeting.
This man is bully

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2017 21:59

svenkat wrote:Madeleine Halfbright ‘ready to become Muslim’ to protest Trump’s immigration policy

svenkat, Very good find. Thanks a ton for validating something.

The Muslim is the new liberal image that Democrats are promoting.

Had this thought swirling for a few months now I get it.

This goes back to Labor in UK, Congress in India and Democrats in US.
and the waves of refugees admitted into Western Europe.

BTW Halfbright should do that and move to Saudi Arabia.
Just deserts for her.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 26 Jan 2017 22:15

svenkat wrote:Madeleine Halfbright ‘ready to become Muslim’ to protest Trump’s immigration policy

Svenkat, I think the name "Mad~~eleine~~ Al bright" suits her better now.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 26 Jan 2017 22:33

Gus wrote:Trump claims that millions of illegals voted and that's why he lost popular vote. This is a claim that has no evidence. He is not talking about hacking EVMs.

Don't conclude so fast. There were reports of vote rigging even before the elections, and it was based on that Trump said that elections were going to be rigged. Let him start investigation on voter fraud / election rigging and let us see the outcome.

BTW, does any one know what really happened to Michigan recount? What did they find and why the new counts are not published?

komal · Post by **komal** » 26 Jan 2017 22:36

jagga wrote:Donald J. TrumpVerified account
‏@realDonaldTrump
The U.S. has a 60 billion dollar trade deficit with Mexico. It has been a one-sided deal from the beginning of NAFTA with massive numbers of jobs and companies lost. If Mexico is unwilling to pay for the badly needed wall, then it would be better to cancel the upcoming meeting.
This man is bully

He is Nehruvian Socialist at heart. He has no understanding of economics.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Jan 2017 22:38

svenkat wrote:Madeleine Halfbright ‘ready to become Muslim’ to protest Trump’s immigration policy

RT is a Russian propaganda channel, so a misleading title such as this one is par for the course.

She is saying she will register as a muslim as a mark of protest against Trump's immigration policy, she is not saying she converting to Islam.

Here is her tweet:

Madeleine Albright ✔ @madeleine
I was raised Catholic, became Episcopalian & found out later my family was Jewish. I stand ready to register as Muslim in #solidarity.
12:18 PM - 25 Jan 2017

LokeshC · Post by **LokeshC** » 26 Jan 2017 22:42

Zeee Russians at it again.

I hope Al-Bright signs the "Hotel California" register ::- "You can check-in anytime....... but you can never leave"

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 26 Jan 2017 22:46

Gus wrote:
Suraj wrote:What's the end game here, though ? Do people go on talking about Trump until Jan 20 2021 ? When does talk about election 2016 stop ?
It will stop when folks don't try to shut down other views and opinions. It will stop when people don't have to twist their knickers about Trump (positive or negative). Just treat an argument at its own merit.

Trump claims that millions of illegals voted and that's why he lost popular vote. This is a claim that has no evidence. He is not talking about hacking EVMs.

But are things at such a pass that even pointing out a ridiculously false claim from Trump that 'millions voted illegally' have to invite such reactions? That is the only question I have.

See, the last two paras I've quoted above are an example of what I subsequently mentioned - "lets say he does or says something new today. What's the point of getting worked up about it ?"

He's going to keep saying that for the next 4 years, and maybe beyond. It's not a question of people stopping shutting down others. It's a question of people just reacting to him. Trump's playing every excited person like an expert violinist plays a Stradivarius. He knows he just has to open his mouth to stay in the news. He can yank your chain, and he can yank your debate opponents chain. And the thing is, as long as Trump is in your mind, you're both willingly playing along with him.

As long as people remain mentally engaged to what he's saying as opposed to the substance of his actions, this is going to continue. It's human behavior when being played like a fiddle. You end up attacking others with a contrarian opinion about a third person who happens to be an expert at playing people towards his own goals. In the process, anyone discussing him gives him free publicity, while the discussion progressively gets more and more distorted.

IMHO, the problem you state will not go away as long as both you and the other party remain engaged to following Trump's utterances. He's a master manipulator. Just look at the response right after MurthyB's funny reply to my earlier post - the guy goes on about march crowd sizes. As if that matters or changes anything. Or as if it matters that the vote was rigged, or that the claim that the vote was rigged is important. The guy's already sitting in 1600 Penn Ave, DC. He's just throwing verbal molotov cocktails at people so they can angrily fight each other.

Look, Trump doesn't care whether people are opposed to him or supporting him, as long as they're listening to him and reacting. As long as he can play them like that, he doesn't care how they react, because the nature of their response DOES NOT HARM HIM. You want proof ? See where he's seated now. The guy can insult and offend so many people along the way and STILL destroy all challengers from BOTH political parties to the position of the world's most powerful leader. He can even get sections of the demographics he supposedly offended - women, men, minorities etc - to vote for him.

Just step back for a moment and consider this carefully. He doesn't need to say things to get support. He just needs to gain attention. People will argue among themselves with half of them aligning with him by consequence. That's how people are. They like to argue. In the process of arguing, lots of them end up supporting his position by consequence.

It's very hard to get every last person to agree to the same thing. But it's very easy to get people to argue about something and split them into two sides. Our own national history of colonization proves it. Our domestic politics proves it. Even the arguments here on BRF - where everyone's considered united - proves it. That's the reality of human behavior, that's easy to manipulate, and that's what Trump understands. He just needs to foment arguments and he'll gain supporters by consequence simply because people like to argue, and end up on his side in the process.

So, this isn't going to stop when either side stops arguing with each other, 'shutting you down' or whatever. It'll stop when people stop listening to him and reacting.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 26 Jan 2017 22:55

Trumper didn't cancel the meeting with mexico. he said the choice is up to mexico.

I call that keeping your options open which is a valid negotiating tactic. nothing wrong about that.

looks like Trumper is doing his job,

and Ross Perot was right.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 26 Jan 2017 23:05

if trump is wrong about illegal voting then the demon-crats should welcome an investigation in order to prove him wrong.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Jan 2017 23:23

Mexico is easy target for Trump to demonize. US has bigger trade deficit with China, EU, Germany, and Japan.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2017 23:34

trade with mexico isn't a straight flow in out, there is a lot of part mexico part US in the value chain... a simple shut down will disadvantage a lot of American companies...

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 26 Jan 2017 23:39

LokeshC wrote:...

Good one,LokeshC ji.

Dipanker ji,
I am not *that* dumb.The post is about khujli to the Establishment from....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Jan 2017 23:41

Dipanker wrote:Mexico is easy target for Trump to demonize. US has bigger trade deficit with China, EU, Germany, and Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrVyYH3Yb6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQglLpBK6nQ

This is huge change for Mexico.

Mexico can be bullied not non of the other countries

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2017 23:43

wonder if cheen will now start making pretty pretty with mexico?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Jan 2017 23:50

Lalmohan wrote:trade with mexico isn't a straight flow in out, there is a lot of part mexico part US in the value chain... a simple shut down will disadvantage a lot of American companies...

True, 6 million AMerican jobs are directly dependent on export to Mexico. 85% of US trade deficit is mostly with China/EU/Germany/Japan.

By hammering Mexico Trumpanzee is just throwing some red meat to his basket of gullible deplorables.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Jan 2017 23:52

svenkat wrote:
LokeshC wrote:...
Good one,LokeshC ji.

Dipanker ji,
I am not *that* dumb.The post is about khujli to the Establishment from....

I never said you were!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2017 23:53

TSJones wrote:if trump is wrong about illegal voting then the demon-crats should welcome an investigation in order to prove him wrong.

they should indeed, but the investigation should be done by an independent third party not tainted by American politics or partisan members of the civil service. I think you should call in the Indian Electoral Commission to run the investigation.

incidentally, the grand strategy behind this is likely to be in preparation for the results of the senate elections and possibly the big one in 4 years time, where results may be more hotly debated. there is a method behind the madness...

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Jan 2017 00:35

actually, this is prep for rayciss photo IDs.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 00:46

Quoting TSJ (incidentally the only person safe to quote)

and Ross Perot was right.

Glad someone remembers. The recent flurry of auto plant relocations is pretty stunning (only) when one thinks about it. I thought US plants had done all the cost-cutting etc. Auto sales are not really hurting.
Plants built in Mexico are blatantly intended to undercut US-based manufacturers in selling to the US public. How can any govt ignore the implications? A ring of manufacturers set up to take ur money away - killing your industry.

BMW for instance: Makes and EXPORTS hajaar Beamer SUVs from Spartanburg, SC. Obviously no quality issue, and its the poorest-paid workforce in the US. Why then do they have to build a massive plant in Mehico to export Beamers to the US? Why not locate the plant in, say, Chile or Patagonia or Buenos Aires (good Gherman connections from Nazi era..)

Any examples from the past? How about East India Company setting up in Sheffield and Birmingham mainly to sell to India (there they cut off the fingers of the Indian master weavers too, and forced imports).

Should the US wait to become as poor and weak like 17th century India before waking up? Be like the Samoothiri of Kozhikode who responded to (early) concerns about the Portuguese taking samples of pepper vine:

They can take the vine, can they take the Monsoon?

This is the standard: no harm in telling this Phishing caller my social security number, what r they gonna do w/o my DOB?

I can see why tough negotiations are needed. Maybe there is NOOOOOO intention to build a physical wall. Only to use that excuse to shut down or hugely tax imports and Mexican (legal) immigration. Desperate measure to save US jobs.

disha · Post by **disha** » 27 Jan 2017 00:48

Dipanker wrote:If discussions are not free and fair then they become useless.

Exactly., hence it is not wrong if:

1. Trump says that there are millions of illegal voters AND the popular vote was lost because of illegal voters
2. And there are people who also agree with the above

And for people who disagree., they need to prove that out of 40 million latinos in US., NONE/Zero of them are on the voter rolls., particularly in states which have very loose voter id requirements.

Hence it is necessary for free and fair discussions that your personal angst against trumpets do not come into the way. Of course people who are doing

at Trump's statement also need now to prove that there are "Zero illegal voters in the voter list". If the answer is "there are some"., they need to quantify it. Use 40 Million illegals as basis.

---

Note very tight voter id requirements were/are used in Mid-west and south to disenfranchise the Blacks, Asians and other minorities. However the loose voter id requirements in other states are now being abused. There needs to be a balance., but being ostrich headed does not help.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 27 Jan 2017 01:17

TSJones wrote:if trump is wrong about illegal voting then the demon-crats should welcome an investigation in order to prove him wrong.

Suppose Trump says some xyz's mother is a whore, with no basis whatsoever.

Does that mean every such xyz's mother should be made to go through an investigation to prove That Trump is wrong, and she is, in fact, not a whore?

What a pass rhe free people of the mighty USA have come to. Willingly enslaved to the whimsical tyranny of a third-rate huckster and con-man.

Sad.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 01:18

I am repeating very strong concerns heard in California (impeccable source that cannot be quoted because I would get banned if I did). This was looong before the Nov. election when it was assumed that the election would be a landslide for One Party/Candidate. Concern was indeed that voter lists had been vastly inflated and ID check requirements blown off. Of course I don't have any evidence or I would have reported it and got KGB Witness Protection, going by the nice reception any such concerns would have got under the previous administration.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 01:34

Hallelujah! What I have been waiting to hear.

******** asks top State Dept ppl to leave.

(BRunmenshunnabal) administration told four top State Department management officials that their services were no longer needed as part of an effort to "clean house" at Foggy Bottom.
Patrick Kennedy, who served for nine years as the undersecretary for management, Assistant Secretaries for Administration and Consular Affairs Michele Bond and Joyce Anne Barr, and Ambassador Gentry Smith, director of the Office for Foreign Missions, were sent letters by the White House that their service was no longer required, the sources told CNN.

All four, career officers serving in positions appointed by the President, submitted letters of resignation per tradition at the beginning of a new administration.

Of course, what replaces them could be far worse...

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Jan 2017 02:20

KLNMurthy wrote:
TSJones wrote:if trump is wrong about illegal voting then the demon-crats should welcome an investigation in order to prove him wrong.
Suppose Trump says some xyz's mother is a whore, with no basis whatsoever.

Does that mean every such xyz's mother should be made to go through an investigation to prove That Trump is wrong, and she is, in fact, not a whore?

What a pass rhe free people of the mighty USA have come to. Willingly enslaved to the whimsical tyranny of a third-rate huckster and con-man.

Sad.

there is slander and then there are reasonable suspicions.......

what are the facts?

1. does the US have a large illegal immigrant pop? yes, 15 million or more by conservative estimates.

2. is there a positive ID required in order to vote? no.

3. is there any penalty if caught trying to illegally vote? has any anyone been arrested at the voting booths? practically never....

now who is being enslaved?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 02:31

What I want to know is, hellooooo Abhiskecc...
Anyone starting an investigation of how the Chinese were trounced in the TIME/See Enn Enn polls many saal pehle?

As I recall, the slogan in those heady dins was

VOTE EARLY. VOTE OFTEN. FROM MANY BROWSERS.

And hey,

Noobaddy deeed eet better...
Makes u feel 4 the rest..
Noobaddy did it..
Half as well as us...

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Jan 2017 02:38

Lalmohan wrote:they should indeed, but the investigation should be done by an independent third party not tainted by American politics or partisan members of the civil service. I think you should call in the Indian Electoral Commission to run the investigation.

I said long back here that India should send election observers to US

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Jan 2017 02:44

TSJones wrote: what are the facts?

1. does the US have a large illegal immigrant pop? yes, 15 million or more by conservative estimates.

2. is there a positive ID required in order to vote? no.

3. is there any penalty if caught trying to illegally vote? has any anyone been arrested at the voting booths? practically never....

now who is being enslaved?

ok facts.

You CANNOT vote at a booth unless your name is on the list. Typically you go in there, say your name, they find your name and then you vote. Some form of id may be requested.

I can walk in and say I am T Jones and may produce some fake id and vote - but when you walk in later and show id that you are the real TJ, the previous vote will not be counted and only your vote will count.

Now, is your contention that millions of people went the booths, said some name (which was on the list) and then voted and none of the real people came in later to find that their votes have been cast earlier? I mean, you would raise a shitstorm if your vote was cast by somebody else, no? Where are all these millions of people who have been disenfranchised?

The other argument is that the voter list itself was altered to include illegals. This is also an unproven claim. It is rather easy to prove this one, no? I mean, the lists are available to political bodies and they can easily find these millions of illegals, surreptitiously added to voter lists, no?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Jan 2017 02:51

disha wrote:And for people who disagree., they need to prove that out of 40 million latinos in US., .

that's not how it works. you make the claim, you get to prove. what is the expectation here? that somebody will go find all illegals and ask them where they were during election day and vet their alibis?

or, go by the new standard for veracity of claims - why did somebody investigate it and how many believe in your claims. These are the new standards that BRF also has to follow, it seems

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/26/pr ... interview/

“You have people that are registered who are dead, who are illegals,” said Trump, who has called for an investigation. “You have people registered in two states. They’re registered in New York and New Jersey. They vote twice. There are millions of votes, in my opinion.”

When pressed to back up his accusations, Trump pointed to a 2012 Pew Center report. When ABC’s David Muir said the author of that report found “no evidence of voter fraud,” Trump attacked that author.

“Excuse me,” the president snapped. “Then why did he write the report?”

Muir listed the reactions of prominent Republicans who do not agree with Trump on this and are alarmed that he is challenging the credibility of the election system.

“Well, let me just tell you, you know what’s important? Millions of people agree with me when I say that,” Trump said. “If you would have looked on one of the other networks and all of the people that were calling in, they’re saying, ‘We agree with Mr. Trump. We agree.’ They’re very smart people.”