'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 00:22

buys HUGE time. How far the IAF and the MoD is willing to entertain the idea remains to be seen. This would also negate the need to buy 36 more Rafales. I love the plane, but damn it is expensive. Money saved from buying a new type, pump it all into opening a second Tejas line.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Jan 2017 01:41

Full Article at Source-

Make-In-India Policy Implementation Slowed By Discord

India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar is not happy. A key aspect of India’s flagship “Make in India” program to build the nation’s industrial capacity was due at the end of 2016 but is mired in bureaucracy
Make in India is moving forward, but the defense ministry is supporting a so-called strategic partnership model, first recommended in 2015, which aims to break the hold of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) by building up private-sector capabilities. The model would appoint an Indian company as the point organization for large-scale defense programs in six sectors: aircraft and helicopters, warships and submarines, armored vehicles, missiles, electronics and command control systems, and critical materials.

For example, a corporation such as the Tata Group or Reliance would win the chance to build all of India’s fighter aircraft or helicopters for the next few decades. This includes the replacement for the medium multi-role fighter aircraft and any other license-build programs. Projects such as the Tejas light fighter and the future advanced medium combat aircraft would remain with India’s state-owned HAL.....

Blocking full implementation of Make in India is anxiety over the strategic partnership model and its implications for competition, choice and the ability to get the best deal. Deep divisions about the policy exist—even within the defense ministry. Despite leadership support, the defense unit that oversees state-owned industrial capacity calls the policy “problem-prone.” The policy should identify at least two companies for each build program, to ensure competitiveness of capability and price, that faction believes. U.S. and UK manufacturing giants, which will be providing the technology to these programs, are uniformly anxious.....

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 01:50

There is an old African proverb - If there is no enemy within, the enemy outside can do you NO harm.

India's greatest enemy is India herself. Welcome to Babudom. The Prime Minister wants to take the country in one direction and the Babus (who have the real power) say no. The GoI folds.

Hate to say I told you so, but that is apt. The tamasha has only begun.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 31 Jan 2017 02:01

I would not put the blame on babudom..they are a product of our system and society...a separate discussion, my fear is that we are losing precious time over haggling or going too much in details (i know in this industy it doesnt work), we need to end these never ending negotiation circus, contract drafting, etc....

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 02:05

Saar, the blame lies entirely with them onlee. Who do you think is causing precious time to be lost? Who do you think wants a never ending negotiation circus? Contract Drafting? It is the Babu and his arhaic babudom.

Who do you think changed the single vendor situation in 2001 to the MMRCA tamasha? The Beloved Babu!

And Saar, the Prime Minister and the Raksha Mantri are the product of our society too! What do they not have, that the babu does?

I will tell you...it's called Job Security! I work for the government...trust me, I know. Any decision you make, ultimately falls on the politicians head. He is guaranteed a lifetime job, will move up the IAS ladder and get a cushy pension in retirement. Babus don't give two shits.

It was Field Marshal Sam Mankeshaw who once remarked, “I wonder whether those of our political masters who have been put in charge of the defence of the country can distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, although a great many resemble the latter.” You can apply the same to the Babu.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2017 02:07

I think the idea of purchasing M2000 is quite interesting. Helps with common base and then keeps the requirement of further rafales at bay. It controls costs as well brings in commonality to the fleet.

This also allows time to push for either an expanded lca line to 25 a year or a second line with private player. I think HAL will do its best to push to 25 units so as to contain its share in the market. Either way, the goal should be 20-25 LCAs a year for next 6-8 years till all the old planes are retired.

The problem with acquiring M2000 is that PAF might push for Mig-35s from Roosis and I don;t think Putin cares and will probably sell to them. It will mean hard cash purchase though for PAF. I doubt the gulf states will do a baksheesh model given the current economic scenario as well.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 31 Jan 2017 02:21

Cybaru wrote:PAF might push for Mig-35s from Roosis and I don;t think Putin cares and will probably sell to them. It will mean hard cash purchase though for PAF. I doubt the gulf states will do a baksheesh model given the current economic scenario as well.

might be some PLAAF gifts or barter agreement in lieu of more land around CPEC...that these mirages are at best mirages only..contract signing negotiation will again take few years..and IAF anyways will not be happy with mirage over the brand new rafale..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 02:24

The PAF will get the FC-31. It is not a matter of if, just a matter of when. Their all weather friend will provide it to them in exchange for more of their sovereignty...which Porkistan will gladly provide. Pakistan is a textbook definition of a banana republic.

Pakistan is China's 32nd province. Officially marked as CPEC on the map at The Politburo in Beijing.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 31 Jan 2017 02:32

returning to our topic, under this trump admin, I doubt there will be any critical technology handling, worst case scenario could be that he may try his bullying tactics to
1. not part any tech
2. try for even the screwdriver giri out of us
3. perhaps may be at a competitive price which he try to recover through high volumes

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2017 02:37

ranjan.rao wrote: might be some PLAAF gifts or barter agreement in lieu of more land around CPEC...that these mirages are at best mirages only..contract signing negotiation will again take few years..and IAF anyways will not be happy with mirage over the brand new rafale..

Way faster to negotiate these though. Only price is the item on table for negotiation, no TOT and other fakeness!

Qatar might be easier and this time, they won't need to sell their stockpile of missiles as they can use them on their rafales. So just might be the 12 airframes.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 02:43

70 odd Mirage 2000s will beat any production schedule that Saab or LM can provide. If signed, all 70 can be on Indian soil in one month. Try beating that!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 02:46

ranjan.rao wrote:returning to our topic, under this trump admin, I doubt there will be any critical technology handling, worst case scenario could be that he may try his bullying tactics to
1. not part any tech
2. try for even the screwdriver giri out of us
3. perhaps may be at a competitive price which he try to recover through high volumes

You think that is going to fly with the Babu who will be overseeing the MII program? As per the article posted by brar, the bureaucracy is already squirming.

He will have an asthma attack when he reviews President Trump's terms. You can say bye bye to F-Solah then (Gripen will soon follow right after!).

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 31 Jan 2017 02:48

easier means 2 years instead of 5, in that time deliveries for new planes with much longer airframe life will start kicking in. You can counter by quick induction of 3 squadrons of planes, but i won't be surprised if IAF says no for it

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 31 Jan 2017 02:53

Rakesh wrote: You think that is going to fly with the Babu who will be overseeing the MII program?

He will have an asthma attack when he reviews President Trump's terms. You can say bye bye to F-Solah then (Gripen will soon follow right after!).

Of course I know that sir...perhaps that may be the only push that is needed for our beloved single engined "Makde In India" fighter: Tejas

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 02:57

ranjan.rao wrote:easier means 2 years instead of 5, in that time deliveries for new planes with much longer airframe life will start kicking in. You can counter by quick induction of 3 squadrons of planes, but i won't be surprised if IAF says no for it

If the IAF says no, you can then ascertain that squadron depletion is not the alarming scenario that the IAF is making it out to be. If the IAF wants only brand new fighters, daal mein kuch kala hai!

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 31 Jan 2017 03:25

No aesa no paisa

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Jan 2017 03:34

The way I see it, an ellceeyay built today can be changed into a very different ellceeyay 10 years later. A Block 70 F-16 built tomorrow will be a Block 70 F-16 10, 20, 30 years from today because of software and other restrictions.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 03:39

Pandyan: Nice rhyme. I like

But is AESA necessary to address squadron depletion?

Ulan Batori: in the words of the emminent Hakeemji...Allah Hu Akbar! Allah Hu Akbar! Amazing words of wisdom

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 31 Jan 2017 03:44

Rakesh wrote: If the IAF wants only brand new fighters, daal mein kuch kala hai!

I would not supsect that daal main kuch kaala hai ..ultimately they will be flying these planes against our enemies..one possible reason could be they too know only NaMo/MaPa will geniunely try to solve this legendary mess created by YouPeeAye

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 31 Jan 2017 05:19

Rakesh wrote:buys HUGE time. How far the IAF and the MoD is willing to entertain the idea remains to be seen. This would also negate the need to buy 36 more Rafales. I love the plane, but damn it is expensive. Money saved from buying a new type, pump it all into opening a second Tejas line.

Considering the pappi-jhappi going on with the Emirates right now, don't see why we can't make a plug for these birds. Would also prevent TSP getting their claws on some of these - in itself a good security measure. Btw, these are very advanced M2Ks - not the usual -5s. Fully integrated ICMS mk3 package and capable of using Scalp EG.

Not all of them might be of the same value (some are older frames IIRC). My guess is we can expect about 75 of these little birds to cost a nice $ 4 billion with weapons et al. Sweet deal this. Not to be missed (again).

I hope someone from Sh. Parrikar's office is listening....

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 31 Jan 2017 05:28

Cybaru wrote:The problem with acquiring M2000 is that PAF might push for Mig-35s from Roosis and I don;t think Putin cares and will probably sell to them. It will mean hard cash purchase though for PAF. I doubt the gulf states will do a baksheesh model given the current economic scenario as well.

Saar, not happening for a variety of reasons:
1) these are not SU days when Rodina would cultivate international partners by supplying mil hardware at subsidized rates. Now, they will demand top dollars - and TSP simply does not have this kind of moolah.
2) They really don't want to risk a 70 year old stable, relationship with a cash cow for two minutes of very small possible profit from rent boy. Not worth it.
3) 50 Mig-35s with all support etc will probably cost about $ 5-10 billion. India is likely to invest about 20X that amount between pakfa, fgfa, frigates, assorted ammo, SAMs, MKIs, submarines, nuclear plants etc. My simply math does not favor the odds of TSP getting anything apart from some choppers here and there.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Jan 2017 05:33

What Pakistan buys or gets is less important in terms of high-end or even moderately higher end systems. It's what they can sustain, and how well they are able to fund readiness, training and develop skills with that, that will ultimately matter in an actual conflict. That is where you need sustained spending to build and maintain skill...Economically, this is one area where the IAF can put a very very large gap between it and the PAF and the same applies for the IA and IN.

Sophisticated systems by themselves are not a headache, it's how you integrate them with both legacy and similarly higher end systems and how good you are using them that ultimately counts.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 31 Jan 2017 05:35

Another thing to consider is India goes all out russki and gets that entire MiG-29/35 line transferred to India to Reliance. Full rights to customize as and how customer chooses - stick Israeli, Euro AESA, engines, integrate milieu of weapons - you name it. Have Reliance build these for IAF and IN. $ 10 billion all paid, just sayin..

OR have them build a few 35s/Ms deliverable in the next 5 years. The line is currently well greased. About 2 sqds will cost $ 3 billion or so.

OR

Just get some older airframes from VVS stocks and other places (hungary for example) and have HAL fix em up to UPG std...a good 2 sqds for < 1 billion $.

Pick yer pizen! Very smooth induction imho.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2017 06:13

I think buying used mirages with 15-20 years left in them makes more sense than buying brand new migs! we already have Su-30MKI line in India. No point in replicating a dead line that doesn't have buyers. You see the same aircraft (Mig-35) peddled every year with minor modifications under a different designation.

We also get roughly 4 squadrons worth within a year or so and HAL is already upgrading the 47 aircraft at home and it will be easy to bring them all to the same level. I think the UAE already has the RDY-2 radar so commonality might not be that much more expensive. It will also be easier to price the upgrade at home and allow HAL to provide a price to the price negotiations committee as well speeding up this process.

This will shut the single engined saga quite quickly and allow IAF to perhaps focus on working on MRCA circus all over again!

Adding 72 aircraft in inventory will also allow the LCA some breather to get to 20-25 aircraft a year. This will allow them to replace 4/5 squadrons completely.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2017 07:27

All the info below is from wiki chacha. here goes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000

Deliveries of IAF Mirage 2000s started in 1985. The air frames are now 30+ years old. But with the Dash-9 upgrade, they are expected to stay in service for another 15 years or so.

In 1983, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) purchased 22 single-seat Mirage 2000EADs, 8 unique single-seat Mirage 2000RAD reconnaissance variants, and 6 Mirage 2000DAD trainers, for a total order of 36 aircraft. The order specified an Italian-made defensive avionics suite that delayed delivery of the first of these aircraft until 1989.

Air frame life spent - 27 years.

Mirage 2000-9 is the export variant of Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2. The UAE was the launch customer, ordering 32 new-build aircraft, comprising 20 Mirage 2000-9 single-seaters and 12 Mirage 2000-9D two-seaters. Initial deliveries of the UAE Mirages began in the spring 2003.

Air frame life spent - 13 years.

A further 30 of Abu Dhabi's older Mirage 2000s will also be upgraded to Mirage 2000-9 standard.

To upgrade a 27 year old air frame, suggests these air frames still have a significant amount of life. During HAL's own overhauls of the Mirage 2000, it has been determined that despite the heavy use by the IAF, air frame stress has been minimal. Speaks volumes of Dassault's build quality. The delta wing design contributes to that as well.

As a sidenote, I expect the same for the Tejas as well. With largely composite materials, it should be better.

In 1994, Qatar ordered nine single-seat Mirage 2000-5EDAs and three Mirage 2000-5DDA trainers, with initial deliveries starting in late 1997.

Air frame life spent - 19 years. The IAF was looking at acquiring these 12 birds in the early 2000s. But it was deemed too expensive

I do not believe UAE and Qatar flog their planes like the IAF does. Despite the age of the air frames, I doubt these aircraft have seen significant time in the air vis-a-vis the IAF Mirages. And if the IAF went in for a Mirage upgrade, after flying them for 30 years, buying the UAE Dash-9s and the Qatari Dash-5s is a no-brainer.

And with regards to conversion training, 21 (six Mirage 2000DADs, three Mirage 2000-5DDAs and 12 Mirage 2000-9Ds) of the above 70+ Mirage 2000s are two seaters. Conversion training can happen much quicker - by spreading training across the two-seater fleet - with less stress on the air frame and the engine. This point is extremely important. No use having planes, if you do not have qualified pilots to fly them. This is not your Bajaj scooter.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 31 Jan 2017 10:05

Someone needs to get MP to read your post.... Maybe we brfites should just think this really hard and it will miraculously manifest. You know, think and grow rich type thingie.... Let the universe of infinite potentiality takeover and all that

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Jan 2017 10:37

Rakesh wrote: If the IAF says no, you can then ascertain that squadron depletion is not the alarming scenario that the IAF is making it out to be. If the IAF wants only brand new fighters, daal mein kuch kala hai!

Is common sense in such short supply that everything has to be attributed to conspiracy theory?

This second hand purchase argument has been discussed multiple times over. And thrashed each time when the argument is subjected to full length of logical analysis. It seems very attractive in the short-run but has serious long term implications. But it seems it is easier to make these loose statements than undertake any serious analysis.

For the heck of it, I'm willing to have this debate again provided you (and others making this argument) present a coherent case of this second-hand purchase with short and long term implications. I'll present the counter argument.

Game?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 31 Jan 2017 11:15

rohitvats wrote:This second hand purchase argument has been discussed multiple times over. And thrashed each time when the argument is subjected to full length of logical analysis. It seems very attractive in the short-run but has serious long term implications.

I am just curious about these "serious long term implications." rohitvatsji. Didn't IAF pursue this wholeheartedly 12 years back when there were plans to acquire Mirage 2000s from Qatar, the deal being nearly done before TyagiJi pulled a fast one and halved our initial offer, thereby collapsing the deal.

That it made it so far suggests that IAF (at least at that point) did think that acquiring second hand MIrages was a viable option. It should be noted that no such attempts were pursued subsequently- whether it was due to an apathetic MoD/GoI or that IAF decided that such an option was no longer viable, I don't know.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Jan 2017 12:26

Kashi wrote: I am just curious about these "serious long term implications." rohitvatsji. Didn't IAF pursue this wholeheartedly 12 years back when there were plans to acquire Mirage 2000s from Qatar, the deal being nearly done before TyagiJi pulled a fast one and halved our initial offer, thereby collapsing the deal.

Before anything else, let us first look at the accusation that Tyagi halved the offer price. What is the source for this data-point? One Mr. Bharat Karnad. Who idiotic and senseless diatribe against the Services, IAF in particular, is pretty known.

Second, in all the years of following Indian defense set-up, have you EVER come across Services taking a call on how much money to spend on a purchase? Price negotiations and contract signing fall under the domain of civilian set-up in MOD. So, how could Tyagi have halved INDIA's offer to a foreign power? You seriously think Service Chief's have this much clout and power?

That it made it so far suggests that IAF (at least at that point) did think that acquiring second hand MIrages was a viable option. It should be noted that no such attempts were pursued subsequently- whether it was due to an apathetic MoD/GoI or that IAF decided that such an option was no longer viable, I don't know.

Second hand Mirages at that point had two aspects - (a) SHORT TERM arrest in squadron numbers (b) deny them to Pakistan.

And this was in 2005 and IAF was looking at ONLY 12 fighters - not the whole fleet.

Please read this article to understand where we stood in 2005:

http://archive.deccanherald.com/Deccanh ... 005715.asp

‘IAF under US pressure in aircraft deal with Qatar’

The hand of powerful US armament lobby is suspected behind IAF’s quoting wholly unacceptable price for the Qatar’s aircraft

The quoting of low price by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for the purchase of 12 secondhand Mirage 2000-5 fighters from Qatar was reportedly done under “subtle pressure” from the US that is pressuring India to buy its F 16/F18 multi- role combat aircraft (MRCA).

Armament industry sources said the IAF’s last month offer of around $ 375 million to the Qatari authorities for 12 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft clearly signified that India was not “serious” about acquiring the fighters.

The IAF’s offer is around half of the $ 750 million that Qatar is quoting for the Mirage fighters it had acquired from France’s Dassault eight years ago.

“Through its offer India appears to be merely going through the formality of making a bid for the fighters, knowing fully well that it would not be acceptable to the Qatari’s,” an overseas source involved in the negotiations said. The US pressure could be the reason behind it, the source added.

Mirage 2000-5 is one of the four aircraft alongside the USA’s F 16 and F 18 competing for the IAF’s multi-million dollar proposal to acquire 126 fighters. The other two competitors are Russia’s MiG 29 M and Sweden’s Saab-Grippen MRCA.

The decision to acquire the 12 Mirage 2000-5’s from Qatar was taken earlier this year by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS ) chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

The CCS was endorsing the commitment by the previous NDA administration two years ago to purchase the used Mirage 2000-5’s in order to prevent Qatar from selling them to Pakistan.

This was when the IAF was in advanced negotiations exclusively with Dassault for 126 Mirage 2000-5 fighters to strengthen its strategic deterrence capability.

During his visit to Qatar in January 2003, former deputy prime minister L K Advani had reportedly told the Sheikhdom that India would curtail an important gas deal if the jets were sold to Pakistan and not to the IAF.

Qatar’s Emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al-Thani visited Delhi in April 2005 and held a series of meetings with senior Indian officials including Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee indicating that the Mirage 2000-5 was a “done deal” barring formalities.

Dassault was also to be part of the agreement with the IAF, involved in refurbishing the fighters before the aircraft joined service sometime later this year.

In June, an IAF delegation led by S K Sharma, joint secretary (acquisitions) and a two-star IAF officer visited Qatar and proposed paying $ 375 million for the fighter jets, an amount “wholly unacceptable” to the Emirate, a foreign armament source said.

“The IAF’s inexplicably low offer is bound to be turned down,” an armament industry source said, hinting that the omnipotent US armament lobby was at work. Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee, he said, was already under attack by the Communist parties for “giving in” to the US lobby in signing the Defence Framework Agreement.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is going to the US later this week during which the purchase of the American fighters would feature prominently amongst other military matters, a senior Defence Ministry source said.

Defence analysts said Washington’s feud with France over the latter’s opposition to the Iraq war had recently been manifesting itself in armament sales.

The US had successfully “spiked” France’s deals for fighters with Poland and South Korea recently, they said.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 31 Jan 2017 12:30

^^ I understand your points RohitvatsJi. From your post it was not clear to me what are the "serious long term implications" likely to arise from purchasing second hand Mirage 2000-5s (or any other jet for that matter).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jan 2017 14:27

Media reports. Serious problems with HAL.The NSA .Mr.Doval,is to go to Moscow to iron out problems relating to def. deals and discuss sev. other strat. affairs issues with his counterparts there.Moscow is reportedly irked at no progress on the KA-226 deal despite it being signed by pres. Putin during his last visit here. The reason being alleged stalling by HAL,which was picked as partner,as HAL is trying to scuttle the deal in favour of its own light helo which has arrived only recently,yet to be certified.

Along with the other reports,there seems to be a huge war with vested interests in the MOD and DPSUs with this "dog-in-the-manger" attitude ,with the DPSUs and babudom trying to scuttle any effort to rope in the pvt. sector to take up the slack. Unless the pvt. sector is involved,we will be unable to attain the goal of self sufficiency. Yanqui lobbying to sell their ancient hags ,manipulating the MOD/DPSUs is another aspect. MP and the PMO should be brutal with the scuttlebutts who are doing the nation dis-service in these mischievous attempts to derail deals already signed.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 31 Jan 2017 15:59

Philip wrote:Media reports. Serious problems with HAL.The NSA .Mr.Doval,is to go to Moscow to iron out problems relating to def. deals and discuss sev. other strat. affairs issues with his counterparts there.Moscow is reportedly irked at no progress on the KA-226 deal despite it being signed by pres. Putin during his last visit here. The reason being alleged stalling by HAL,which was picked as partner,as HAL is trying to scuttle the deal in favour of its own light helo which has arrived only recently,yet to be certified.

Along with the other reports,there seems to be a huge war with vested interests in the MOD and DPSUs with this "dog-in-the-manger" attitude ,with the DPSUs and babudom trying to scuttle any effort to rope in the pvt. sector to take up the slack. Unless the pvt. sector is involved,we will be unable to attain the goal of self sufficiency. Yanqui lobbying to sell their ancient hags ,manipulating the MOD/DPSUs is another aspect. MP and the PMO should be brutal with the scuttlebutts who are doing the nation dis-service in these mischievous attempts to derail deals already signed.

Philip saar, if it is not too much trouble, could you please share these media reports that indicate serious problems with HAL?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Jan 2017 16:27

Philip wrote:Media reports. Serious problems with HAL.The NSA .Mr.Doval,is to go to Moscow to iron out problems relating to def. deals and discuss sev. other strat. affairs issues with his counterparts there.Moscow is reportedly irked at no progress on the KA-226 deal despite it being signed by pres. Putin during his last visit here. The reason being alleged stalling by HAL,which was picked as partner,as HAL is trying to scuttle the deal in favour of its own light helo which has arrived only recently,yet to be certified.

This is absolutely music to my ears.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2017 17:19

I don't think Hal can scuttle something on its own. Govt has to be complicit in it. So perhaps MP thinks this is a waste of time or IA thinks it's hot and high performance is "meh" and aren't enthused by it.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 31 Jan 2017 19:16

Indranil wrote:
Philip wrote:The reason being alleged stalling by HAL,which was picked as partner,as HAL is trying to scuttle the deal in favour of its own light helo which has arrived only recently,yet to be certified.
This is absolutely music to my ears.

Aye! My thoughts exactly.

Hopefully we can get away with ordering a limited batch off-the-shelf (50 units) without perpetuating a screwdrivering fraud on the taxpayer with the remainder.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2017 20:56

Some more thoughts on the 226T.

If I were a strategic company and I realized that I am going to be selling at the same price points as competition and that the competitor had a better value proposition for the same cost, I would be hard pressed to invest in infrastructure to build something like that. The risk profile is quite uncertain, as there isn't a monopoly or a captive market to dictate terms to.

Again if its a govt instead of the private company, unless the govts hands are tied due to some other initiative/promise or pro quid quo, investing in this doesn't make sense.

Roosis made a blunder by wanting to get into the same space which has a viable and better contender. Strategically ( And I have been burned in the past for suggesting this) they should have targeted the Mi-38+ space in India. Boeing got a foot hold there with chinook, and it will be difficult to dislodge them. But getting us to invest in capability to carry 8-9 tons payload would have been a smarter move. They have been looking for partners and this would have been perfect as there isn't a use case just of us, we could have built and sold those like brahmos to other countries. Work share like Airbus should be pursued, so both sides get a lot out of it and we make money in all future sales. The IMRH is still going to play in the 4-6 ton space, so there is space for a heavy lifter even today if we start on that initiative.

The Mi-38 got certified with PW engines as well, so that was a real possibility of picking up the work and taking all the experience of decades of Mi-17 operations and building something custom built and designed for Indian forces with better airframe and engine life. If memory serves me right, Deejay said something to the effect that they run through a mi-17 airframe life in 10 years due to high operational tempo (Deejay, Please correct me if I am wrong).

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Jan 2017 21:03

Kashi wrote:^^ I understand your points RohitvatsJi. From your post it was not clear to me what are the "serious long term implications" likely to arise from purchasing second hand Mirage 2000-5s (or any other jet for that matter).

if the issue is purely about shortfall in numbers - it is surely cheaper to buy 2nd hand Mirage 2000's whilst the LCA line is built up...?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jan 2017 22:00

Too much trash in the media. This HAL scuttling stuff is probably rubbish, That damn Tumkur plant is being built for the 226 and later LUH

HAL became a "navratna" by licence assembly and why would they want to mess that up by saying "No we don't want more work in our new plant"?

The "news" sounds like a bogey to me. Wait for confirmation or denial. We see too many conflicting things in the media

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 Jan 2017 22:17

x-posting from LCA thread, as this is very relevant here:

Kakarat wrote:Tejas SP-4 at striking distance from first flight

“All efforts are to see that the aircraft (SP-4) is ready for the upcoming Aero India 2017,” Sridharan said. Next in line platforms SP-5 and SP-6 are also in different stages of assembly and undergoing equipping at the facility.
...

With most of the major assembly structures now being outsourced, the production has picked up momentum. Different modules for platforms till SP-11 have hit the production floor now.

Among the main parts outsourced are: wing to L&T (Coimbatore), central fuselage VEM Technologies (Hyderabad) and rear fuselage Alpha Tocol (Bengaluru). The precision mechanical assemblies are being done by Alpa Tocol and BrahMos Aerospace (Thiruvananthapuram).

“Currently the level of outsourcing is around 39 per cent. When all the new initiatives taken recently to step up the production rate come to play, then the level of outsourcing will increase to 61 per cent as far as standard man hours are concerned,” says Sridharan.

As per the plans for 2016-17, SP-4, SP-5 and SP-6 should be handed over to Indian Air Force by coming March.

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Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Jan 2017 22:26

come to think of it, the only other single engine fighter production line that is available (maybe in mothball state) is the M2k one!