'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 31 Jan 2017 22:37

That would be the line upgraded for Rafael. I don't think a financially strapped organization would be able to afford two different lines. Everything would be reused.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Feb 2017 01:52

rohitvats wrote:
For the heck of it, I'm willing to have this debate again provided you (and others making this argument) present a coherent case of this second-hand purchase with short and long term implications. I'll present the counter argument.

Game?

Just go ahead and do a pre emptive strike by presenting the counter arguments now only saar! Either you already know what they are going to say or you are willing to take any opposite stand to whatever they choose to argue. Opposition party effect in full force! It's good to know we have an open mind while discussing on BRF!

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Feb 2017 01:59

Marten wrote:That would be the line upgraded for Rafael. I don't think a financially strapped organization would be able to afford two different lines. Everything would be reused.

It was going to affordable for them but the Mirage line would have moved to India for $$$$$$$$$$$$$
Would have been the best goddamn thing ever. We would have ourselves a qualitative medium price Mirage that we would be able to tinker around with like the Sukhoi and Hawk(i).

What a balls up

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Feb 2017 02:09

In an era of reduced RCS platforms, relying on 2nd hand Mirages is not optimal anymore IMHO. They will require datalinked support from larger AEW&C, which we don't have in sufficient number. The rule of thumb is 3 AEW&C per sector. We will have 3 (+2) Phalcon + 2 AEW&C local. One on duty, one in transit (if to protect the vital asset we base it far away), one in maintenance. So basically two sectors for proper coverage and if its a two front war, we are basically operating at maximal stretch. Which is where HPRs on our fighter platforms become so critical. The RDY-2 on the Mirage 2000, while substantial, is simply not sufficient for the 2030's timeframe as our premier strike/AD asset.

Its good against TSP, but MMRCA was more against PLAAF. Which is why a MMR equipped LCA remains relevant against TSPAF since it frees up Sukhois vs PRC. But MMRCA was meant to complement Sukhoi.

Some numbers, some MMRCA class AESA unit was credited with 180km class performance against a 1 sq mtr target. I can state this since a) its public b ) its not in Indian service. Now, against a 0.01 sq mtr target, the performance is 57km. The RDY-2 class system will perform significantly less. The Mirage 2000 does not have an AESA or an IRST either. In short, against PAF F-16s, its still a very potent platform, in fact even against PLAAF Flankers and J-10s. But going forward into the 2030-40 timeframe, when more reduced RCS platforms emerge in PLAAF, we will see mass obsolescence of the most critical sensor of the Mirage 2000.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Feb 2017 02:47

It all depends on the price. We just spent about 40 million to upgrade each of our Mirages. Is it worth buying the Emirati Mirages which are newer and of the same standard as our upgraded Mirages at 40 million a piece? Tough to argue against it. At least the Mig-27s can be retired without worry.

And if required the Israelis are every willing to fit their 2052s on the Mirages. It will add $5 million per plane. I don't see a reason for it though.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Feb 2017 02:53

Its not easy to fit an AESA on a plane where the OEM does not cooperate. Plus if the 2052 was all that ready, or came easily, why are we having a full blown tender? The French want the Mirage 2000-9 to be upgraded only by French firms and then to a level, that ensures Rafale remains dominant. The FAF itself has not been able to get its Mirage 2000s to an AESA level, and is transitioning to the Rafale.
Next, the Mirages which we are getting are all of the same standard and it took 40 MIll each to get them to a common standard. The 70 other units will all be to different ones and getting them to a common standard will be more expensive. In the 2040 timeframe, spares for these aircraft will be another concern. We are buying airframes, not the line or the LRU TOT.

I would rather spend the money on 36 more Rafales and put the rest in a radically upgraded new LCA Mk2.
More fuel and carriage (main), larger nose (for a more powerful radar), IRST, internal EW and reduced RCS.

Bridge to AMCA. Scrap 2nd line of MII fighter.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Feb 2017 02:55

The M2K purchase should only be considered as a interim acquisition and a limited budget of perhaps $ 2 billion should be allocated to it (compare this to probably $ 15 billion bill for new MMRCA). IOWs this is hardly going to be IAFs premier strike asset - they have upgraded MKI for this and Rafales as needed. Just a temporary and cost effective fix until LCA and a 5G platform come along (either pakfa, amca or jsf). Quite importantly, this purchase can be integrated faster than any MII fighter - deliveries could start within months of signature and induction would be a lot faster too as Rakesh was pointing out.

Wrt HPR requirement for M2K, this can be alleviated by 1) mix formations which include MKI/5G fighters, 2) Using the saved $$ss to purchase force multipliers like AWACs, and 3) replacing radars with more powerful locally sourced AESA units circa 2030 (if needed).

When it comes to facing a V.Low enemy, I doubt any MRCA (irrespective of hpr) is going to make much difference. Note that we can expect the 5G enemy to carry an equally powerful radar (of a bigger size) in comparison. IOWs, what benefit is it to the uber MRCA whether it can detect 5 Gen enemy @ 20km greater range when the enemy has already released its missiles - it'll probably be dead even before it detects said enemy. Also, if an HPR makes such a difference, I'm sure by 2030-40, India will have developed enough competency in this area to replace the RDYs as needed.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Feb 2017 02:58

Perhaps the make in India AESA can be used to upgrade the Mirages as well negating the objection to it. Even Thales is participating in the tender. This may mean that the 70 odd mirages have a different radar and will reduce pilot interoperability a bit, but the supply chain for support will remain intact and common.

Plus you don't really rely on the radar of these planes for finding 5th gen planes. That work will probably be most likely be done by ground based L/UHF/VHF combo radars with lots of processing power. Awacs would be useful, but not as much as the ground based assets. Once found, appropriate fighters would be cued to take care of it. We are adding more capable fighters as we go along. These used/upgraded mirages don't have to take on every role. They really allow a bridge and save 8-10 billion dollars in this single engined scam!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Feb 2017 03:04

Might not even need 70 of them - even 40 would do to stem the tide a bit. The production issues of the LCA should be sorted out by 2020-21, and they could possibly be churning 20-25 p.a at that point. So, by 2021, we would be looking at 36 Rafale + 40 M2k + 40 LCA (or more if some are ordered at FOC) with a line that is ready to ramp up higher quality fighters in greater quantity. That will all help.

In the meanwhile if shortages are still likely, order some Pakfa direct from Ru (as a platform it is better than any MMRCA ou there) and start FGFA production. Plus more LCA. 2020s should simply see production of FGFA and LCA. 2030s: FGFA and AMCA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Feb 2017 04:28

I mentioned the RCS and range figures (minimum) we need to hit. We dont have any exotic band radars in numbers. What we can do is run a wall of fighters. The Rafale with Meteor itself will be challenged. The Mirage is simply not in the same class.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2017 04:36

Bridge to AMCA. Scrap 2nd line of MII fighter.

++1.

Read that DRDO(?) had sat with SAAB (in Aug, 2016!!!! that late) to discuss consultancy for the LCA MK-1A. SAAB has stated IF the Gripen is selected then they will certainly provide help for the 1A. (Surprised that help is needed fo rthe 1A, but a diff matter.) IF all this happens, it will be 2020+ for the 1A. IN seems to have bailed out on the -II, debatable I guess. And, MP seems to have stated that they will look at the -II in 2024-25 time frame.

Much better to invest in the AMCA line - naval (they seem to have plans) and AF. And, just maybe, derive a single engined offering from the AMCA. That way the MIC is alive and techs are making progress.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2017 07:45

Karan M wrote:In an era of reduced RCS platforms, relying on 2nd hand Mirages is not optimal anymore IMHO. They will require datalinked support from larger AEW&C, which we don't have in sufficient number. The rule of thumb is 3 AEW&C per sector. We will have 3 (+2) Phalcon + 2 AEW&C local. One on duty, one in transit (if to protect the vital asset we base it far away), one in maintenance. So basically two sectors for proper coverage and if its a two front war, we are basically operating at maximal stretch. Which is where HPRs on our fighter platforms become so critical. The RDY-2 on the Mirage 2000, while substantial, is simply not sufficient for the 2030's timeframe as our premier strike/AD asset.

I have no reason to doubt any of what you have said above. You are far more knowledgeable than me on this issue. But I am a bit confused as to why the IAF then signed a deal to upgrade her 51 Mirage 2000s to the Dash 9 standard? Was that a waste of money?

Karan M wrote:Its good against TSP, but MMRCA was more against PLAAF. Which is why a MMR equipped LCA remains relevant against TSPAF since it frees up Sukhois vs PRC. But MMRCA was meant to complement Sukhoi.

Karan, I don't believe anyone of us are saying that the M2K purchase is to replace the MMRCA. Neither is that possible in numbers or in capability. A M2K is no comparison against a AESA-equipped Rafale. The only reason I am advocating for the purchase is to address the short term arrest in squadron numbers. The IAF is the one ringing the alarm bells on this issue. Now sure a Dash-9 is inherently better in capability than a MiG-27 or a MiG-21 that is in service now. This gives breathing room to everyone involved to get the Tejas production up & running.

Karan M wrote:Some numbers, some MMRCA class AESA unit was credited with 180km class performance against a 1 sq mtr target. I can state this since a) its public b ) its not in Indian service. Now, against a 0.01 sq mtr target, the performance is 57km. The RDY-2 class system will perform significantly less. The Mirage 2000 does not have an AESA or an IRST either. In short, against PAF F-16s, its still a very potent platform, in fact even against PLAAF Flankers and J-10s. But going forward into the 2030-40 timeframe, when more reduced RCS platforms emerge in PLAAF, we will see mass obsolescence of the most critical sensor of the Mirage 2000.

If they are potent enough against the PAF, as you have indicated above, surely we can station the M2K squadrons in the west. Have the Rafales and the Rambhas primarily in the east and in the central air bases. The latter has long legs. It can fly anywhere.

Karan M wrote:The 70 other units will all be to different ones and getting them to a common standard will be more expensive. In the 2040 timeframe, spares for these aircraft will be another concern. We are buying airframes, not the line or the LRU TOT.

One question. Will this be more expensive than buying a second line of Block 70s or Paper NGs? If so, then squash the idea.

Karan M wrote:I would rather spend the money on 36 more Rafales and put the rest in a radically upgraded new LCA Mk2. More fuel and carriage (main), larger nose (for a more powerful radar), IRST, internal EW and reduced RCS.

I agree with you on 36 more Rafales. But that plane is ridiculously expensive. Can the IAF really afford 36 more? Or better question - same as above - will this be more expensive than buying a second line of Block 70s or Paper NGs? The answer to this question is going to give some on BRF heartburn or smiles

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2017 10:25

Cross Posted from the LCA: News & Discussions thread...

DrRatnadip wrote:This is realy a very good news. Do we realy need teens now??

Dr Saab...You should be wary of posting questions like the above. You will incur the wrath of the All-Seeing Eye of Sauron and his minions, especially Gollum. Just shhh....and do a quiet lungi dance.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 02 Feb 2017 07:19

^^point taken sirji..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Feb 2017 14:57

buying more M2K's compared to a new type, even if they are a different variant will be easier to absorb by the IAF and HAL in terms of fleet management and uptime. ofcourse its a stop gap - but there are a few around on the market... Qatari (still around?), Greek (distress sale!), etc.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 02 Feb 2017 15:25

A point to ponder, IAF did not pursue those second hand mirages earlier.. why would it go after them now ?

The teen, being brand new airframes will see service for the next 20-30 years, can't say the same for the second hand mirages.

Cost is another factor, our m2k upg was pretty steep.. it makes sense to pour the money into the teen line rather than pick up used jets from here n there like the pakis.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Feb 2017 15:32

political considerations - many of which have been elaborated on earlier in this thread
discussions with the qataris had reached a very advanced stage

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 02 Feb 2017 16:03

From a requirement of 126 mmrca IAF has been given a BIG cut down to 36 rafales.

The F16 is a compromise wrt the initial qualitative requirement.

No used M2K can fill that requirement gap qualitatively or quantitatively for the next 20-30 years.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Feb 2017 16:11

on the other hand they are available right now
and the 21`s and 27's are retiring fast

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 02 Feb 2017 16:13

Correct and hence we need to move quick on the F16 line + LCA production rate hike.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 18:27

nirav wrote:A point to ponder, IAF did not pursue those second hand mirages earlier.. why would it go after them now ?

Cost! Before we thought we could get 126 new aircrafts for 8-9 billion. With that context, it didn't make sense. Now given the ballooning cost to own and operate a new type and given that we need fighters both in light and Mid category to tide over till Mk-2, FGFA and AMCA bear fruit, a second hand type that we can integrate without much heartburn and jumping over hoops would make sense.

It would also make sense to use the radar that is going on LCA for the refurbed M2K. If the LCA tender for AESA gets approved soon, integrating it on Mirage would make a lot of sense. Not sure how long such an effort would add, but it certainly would make them more potent. This would catapult Thales chance of winning the tender quite nicely as well and reduce the time for testing quite dramatically.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 02 Feb 2017 18:37

The way I see it, with the reduction in Rafale numbers to a paltry 36, the IAF faces a serious challenge in re equipping itself.

The F16 line allows the IAF to add a very relevant to our scenario fighter for a reasonable cost + it serves as hedging against inherent program risk that the LCA carries.

Used M2Ks cannot be flogged for the next 20-30 years !
That jugaadu ideas time has long gone.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 18:39

It may have gone, but there is price to pay for buying an external unit with no strategic value to Make in India. I got the sense that our defence budget did not allocate enough for a new single engined second line. What was your sense of that?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 02 Feb 2017 18:55

Doubt if contract signing will happen this fiscal.

The F16, if it happens could be a useful deal on many fronts.
Hope our side negotiates as hard as they did with the French for the Rafale to extract enough sops in return from massa. I trust Sh.Parrikar to drive a hard bargain.
If for 36 Rafales, France comes through on the Kaveri, we can negotiate a lot more for 100+ F solah.

A fighter force of MKIs, upg M2K-MiG29,F16I and LCA Mk1A, is enough to take care of any flying mujahis pakis throw at us.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 18:58

I think the upgraded mirages and mig29s are enough for paf. Actually the Indian Navy air wing with baraks and brahmos is enough.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Feb 2017 19:28

Doubt if contract signing will happen this fiscal.

FYI, there is a report or two, out there, in fact one is in quotes, that the deal nearly happened during Modi's last visit to the US. Based on open source, my sense is that it could be completed by the end of this year. However, no idea what Trump is thinking. Not holding my breath.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 02 Feb 2017 19:57

^thanks.i wasn't aware.

Looks like it's just a matter of when, not if for the solah.

Hope the I in F16I ensures it comes with the drogue and chute method and not the boom.
Don't need another tanker type.. !

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 21:17

In my opinion, april is going to be an interesting time for this whole tender when HAL shares more details on who the AESA tender winner is and what it gets us in capabilities and how the tender is structured.

If the pricing model is of transfer and rights to make a radar for an upfront cost of a billion or so and followed by a reduced cost for each set, buying and refurbing M2K from UAE/Qatar/Greece might make a whole lot of sense as we can use this AESA radar for such an upgrade.

If Thales wins, then the LCA-mk1A/Rafale fleet will have common radar and then buying the used M2K should inch even higher on the charts as the upgrade will allow it to work with common weapons and upgraded capabilities.

This tender would make the LCA Mk1A quite sought after in the IAF as it would be among the first platforms to support such capabilities fleet wide.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Feb 2017 10:52

Let HAL first build the type in large qtys. for the IAF,support it 100%,unlike the alleged non-availability of MK-1 Arjuns because of lack of spares,breakdowns,poos support,etc. The top priority must be for the IAF to get its hands on at least 5-6 sqds of LCAs asap. However,there seems to be a a conspiracy to belittle the LCA,slowdown its production so that a case can be made out for acquiring yet another firang bird ! This makes a mockery of the "make in India" mantra of the BJP,just giving us another screwdriver tech deal,this time for Uncle Sam,who is heavily manipulating babus i,politicos and uniformed tribes n Delhi to sell us either of its two aged hags. At least in the MKI deal,the local content is now over 70% for homebuilt birds,with availability also going up after the setting up of dedicated support entities by the OEM in India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Feb 2017 11:34

Recommendations to avoid MOD delays.Set up another entity to fast track acquisitions.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Defen ... ses-250258

Defence Procurement Delays: Panel to tell Def Min to create unit outside MoD to fast-track purchases
Friday, February 03, 2017
By: Financial Express

To overcome the perennial problem of delays in defence procurement, unspent budgets, allegations of corruption and botched deals, an expert committee established by the government has recommended the creation of a new, independent organisation outside the Ministry of Defence to undertake defence procurement. The committee, headed by retired IIM professor Pritam Singh, will submit its report to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar next week.

“We have given this new organisation full ownership of the acquisition process by bringing legal, financial, costing and technical experts under one roof. Independent of the Ministry (of Defence), they will not be constrained by government rules. This professionalisation of the process will bring down the time taken to complete defence acquisitions. We have also recommended adequate internal checks and balances to reduce corruption,” a member of the expert committee said.

The Indian Express spoke to two members of the committee who said that the report, running into more than 300 pages, was ready last month. They have discussed the report with the Defence Secretary since Parrikar was busy with assembly elections in Goa.

Defence acquisitions have been stuck in a long-drawn spiral with major procurements like the Rafale fighters or M-777 howitzers taking nearly a decade to fructify. This is the state of government-to-government deals while the situation with the open tender processes has been worse, with allegations of corruption and subsequent blacklisting of firms.

This is reflected in the quantum of unutilised funds of defence procurement. In the last ten years, the Ministry has been unable to utilise R54,416 crore from its capital acquisition budget.

This includes the current financial year, in which an amount of R6,886 crore from the capital budget has been transferred for revenue spending of the defence services, according to Budget documents placed before Parliament Wednesday.

The nine-member expert committee was formed by the Ministry in May last year with the mandate for ‘Restructuring of the Acquisition wing to make it more effective’. It was embroiled in controversy when the head of the committee, former Director General (Acquisition) Vivek Rae, resigned in October after fundamental differences with other members over the proposed defence procurement organisation.

While Rae wanted this new organisation to be a part of the Ministry, other members were determined to keep it independent of the government.

In its recommendations, the committee has proposed that a new organisation, tentatively called the Defence Capital Acquisition Authority, will be fully responsible for the entire process of acquisition after the operational requirements have been identified by the defence services.

Operating independently of the Ministry, it will be manned by people with specific qualifications which will include experts from outside the government who are fit to serve in these positions.

The report says that “at the highest level, there will be a seamless integration between the MoD and this organisation” where the “decision-making will be collective and collegiate”.

“This organisation will convert all acquisition schemes and programmes into projects, which will be the responsibility of a project management team from the start to finish. Project which are of different service, say UAVs for the army and the air force, will be clubbed together as one single project,” a member of the expert committee said.

Loosely based on features drawn from similar organisations in France, the UK, Australia and South Korea, this new organisation will combine several functions currently undertaken by different agencies: service headquarters are responsible for defining the technical features of weapon systems and undertaking trial evaluation, Director General Quality Assurance for quality assurance, the office of DG (Acquisition) for contract negotiation, Department of Defence Production for industrial development and DRDO for sponsoring research on futuristic technology. The capital acquisition wing of the Ministry will, however, be completely subsumed in this new organisation.

The committee has recommended that the government should not rush into the process of creating this organisation to disrupt ongoing procurements. While timelines have been left open for further deliberation, it has proposed two years to complete this exercise.

Yet another delay in setting up this entity.MOD says...Hooray!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Feb 2017 17:50

"Never say die" MIG-35! Chances would be better if the number was "MIG-36",adding upto 9,vastu-wise more powerful.

All the hype notwithstanding,ultimately it will be the price/life-cycle cost factor and support that matters. From recent eperience,post Soviet era support was generally poor. Improvements are being made now across the board for Ru milware,but this offer must be made very attractive,perhaps coming with a confirmed Ru order for it to materialise. The price must be significantly lower than the other Yanqui and EU birds for the IAF to take a good look at what is on offer. It must also be significantly better than even the 29-UPG ,where the whole lot of legacy 29s have been given deep upgrades.

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/the_flying_tr ... tie_696156

MiG-35 warms up engines for new India sortie
6 February 2017 VINAY SHUKLA
According to Russian sources RAC MiG is ready to relocate its assembly line to India if the two countries reach an agreement. After meeting the requirements of the Indian Air Force, the India-based plant could start the export of MiG-35 fighters to potential buyers abroad. Russia already has a rich experience of licensed production of aircraft in India.

MiG-35, the new Dogfight hero: Alternative to Rafale?

A new multi-role Russian MiG-35 fighter is displayed during its international presentation at the MiG plant in Lukhovitsy outside Moscow, Russia January 27, 2017. Source:Reuters
Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) MiG is poised to field its latest MiG-35 multi-role fighter jet in the unfolding fray for the Indian skies along with highly-lobbied Western warbirds, officials at the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), the umbrella holding of the country's aircraft designers and manufacturers, recently declared.

MiG-35, with NATO reporting name Fulcrum-F, was formally unveiled on Jan. 27 at the Lukhovitsy plant of RAC MiG, situated 140 km southeast of Moscow, in the presence of military officials and foreign diplomats from about 30 countries, which included Indian Air Force, Naval and Military attaches. The high-tech 3D multimedia presentation was followed by an impressive flight demonstration of the two-seater trainer/combat MiG-35 jet that was watched by Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and the foreign guests.

“Sure, we will offer this fighter to India, under Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Make in India programme,” Rogozin said in response to a question by this author after the impressive demo flight. “This issue will be on the agenda of Military-Industrial Conference in New Delhi this spring.”

However, it will not be displayed at the AeroIndia 2017 airshow in Bangalore later this month, because two flying prototypes are involved in intensive systems and weapons trials ahead of the serial production. The Russian Aerospace Force will get its first fighters in 2019, and export to foreign buyers is scheduled to commence around 2020.

Military
MiGs try to conquer India
MiG-35 had taken part in the Indian tender in 2007 for the acquisition of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), and also had flown at AeroIndia 2007 in Bangalore.

For the Indian tender two naval versions of MiG-29K/KUB were modified and equipped with Zhuk AE and AME radars and christened as the MiG-35. However, along with the American Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing F-18, and Swedish SAAB Gripen, the MiG-35 was not shortlisted. Finally in 2011, the French Dassault Rafale was declared the winner defeating the Eurofighter 2000 Typhoon in the Indian MMRCA tender.

As the Rafale deal dragged on and ended with the signing of contract for just 36 aircraft, RAC MiG sees it as a chance for a new sortie in the Indian skies. Aware of the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) requirements of upto 400 aircraft in the long run, RAC MiG continued development of the MiG-35 and a technology demonstrator went on public display in 2012 at the centenary celebrations of the Russian Air Force. It later flew at the Moscow airshow MAKS in 2013 and 2015. And finally, the latest MiG-35 in its single and two-seater trainer/combat variants was unveiled to the potential foreign buyers in its full beauty on Jan. 27, 2017.

According to Russian sources RAC MiG can relocate its assembly line to India if the two countries reach an agreement. After meeting the IAF’s requirements, the India-based plant could start the export of MiG-35 fighters to potential buyers abroad.

MiG-35: The plane that won’t die
Russia has a very rich experience of licensed production of a whole range of aircraft at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited plant in Nasik, Maharashtra, starting from MiG-21, MiG-23 , MiG-27 in the past and currently the Sukhoi Su-30MKI.

According to Deputy Director of Moscow-based independent think tank - Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), Dr Konstantin Makiyenko, in 2019 Su-30MKI production would be completed, and the production of MiG-35 could be easily launched at HAL’s factory in Nasik.

However, Russia is also ready to enter into a partnership with Indian private sector companies identified by the Government of India. There was a time when MiG-21 was the top of the line supersonic fighter in the world, which decisively contributed in Vietnam winning the war against the U.S. and India winning the 1971 Bangladesh War of Liberation against Pakistan, which was armed by the Americans. The MiG-21 was rightly called the fighter of 20th century.

The MiG-35 fighter could have a similar glorious future with the IAF in 21st century, because finally it is the man behind the machine who matters.

Vinay Shukla is an Indian journalist, who has covered Russia for over four decades. Views expressed in this column are personal. Read more of his articles here.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Feb 2017 20:27

nirav wrote:A point to ponder, IAF did not pursue those second hand mirages earlier.. why would it go after them now ?

The teen, being brand new airframes will see service for the next 20-30 years, can't say the same for the second hand mirages.

Cost is another factor, our m2k upg was pretty steep.. it makes sense to pour the money into the teen line rather than pick up used jets from here n there like the pakis.

Cost of 2nd hand m2ks won't be anywhere close to new f16s. Iirc qatar was demanding 750 mil for 12 almost New birds. Iaf could have grabbed them for 600 probably but made a cheap ass offer of 350.

More importantly...why would iaf want to be flying expensive 4 Gen fighters 20 years from now when 5g birds will proliferate. By that time lca should take up the low end role in as many numbers as desired at cheap prices. Hopefully amca will be the focus as top end.

Right now the focus should be on quick induction, low price and solid capability. M2k provides this due to with existing French inventory and reduces dependence on Russian hardware. Allows lca to mature and monies for force multipliers , mki to get powerful upgrade, and 5 gen investments. No point flushing another 15+billion on another 4 gen bird when you can use the same to meet above needs.

Only thing f16 line will p provide is boost tho private industry. Can't see why this can't be done via another lca line or amca or even, rafale

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Feb 2017 20:41

Philip wrote:"Never say die" MIG-35! Chances would be better if the number was "MIG-36",adding upto 9,vastu-wise more powerful.

All the hype notwithstanding,ultimately it will be the price/life-cycle cost factor and support that matters. From recent eperience,post Soviet era support was generally poor. Improvements are being made now across the board for Ru milware,but this offer must be made very attractive,perhaps coming with a confirmed Ru order for it to materialise. The price must be significantly lower than the other Yanqui and EU birds for the IAF to take a good look at what is on offer. It must also be significantly better than even the 29-UPG ,where the whole lot of legacy 29s have been given deep upgrades.

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/the_flying_tr ... tie_696156
MiG-35 warms up engines for new India sortie
6 February 2017 VINAY SHUKLA
[]

Well, tbh philip sir, if Russians can sort out support issues and uptimes with their hardware, the 35 should be a very neat buy.....cheap, familiar and competitive. But Don't think this is happening. If MII fighter comes in, it's likely to be f16.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2017 21:35

From the Russian stables, India has settled on the PAK-FA, based on which India plans to build the FGFA.

The only MiG foot in the door would have been a single engine 5th gen they were talking of. No clue what happened to that thought.

As a plane alone, I see the Gripen has a better chance for a SE solution. F-16 will be brought in for a variety of other reasons, including political.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 06 Feb 2017 21:39

The MIG 1.44 was rumored as being sold to the Chinese.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Feb 2017 06:53

Single-engine fighters to be focus of Aero India
http://www.asianage.com/india/all-india ... india.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Feb 2017 13:20

Yes,the 35 having two engines will be discarded! I would prefer the Gripen to the F-16,more modern plus the Swedes are willing to give us far more tech than the US. Decades ago,the then CNS told me that the Swedish offer of subs was far superior (TOT) than the HDW offer and had recommended it .He was overruled by the govt.because a certain individual who had dreams of making a small car allegedly had an interest in the deal. The naval requirement for a naval strike aircraft since the NLCA has been dumped,could favour the Gripen.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Feb 2017 14:38

Sea Gripen is 100% vapourware.

Getting the Gripen would be the worst thing ever for Desh.
The Swedes can never offer us the stuff that the Khan's can. Carrier Catobar tech + later date F35 induction and US bolitical support.

With both the jets there'd be significant overlap with LCA capabilities, but if we will go down this road, it better be all American.. "strategic partners" afterall.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Feb 2017 17:03

^^^"Sea Gripen is 100% vapourware."

Yes but:
1. It is not American
2. It is another science project and we like the once and future fighter
3. It is not American

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Feb 2017 17:07

^^^"MiG-35 warms up engines for new India sortie"
RAC is ingenious to say the least: they are going to claim engine unreliability as an advantage. Built-in redundancy for the single-engined fighter contract. Tagline: "Two engines but only one works"