Understanding US thread-III

[Singha]

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump
The opinion of this so-called judge, which essentially takes law-enforcement away from our country, is ridiculous and will be overturned!

[Gus]

Did not know the SS Medicare and wage implication..

Good points kiranA

[A_Gupta]

Yes, good points all of them, KiranA!

PS: I have heard about IT companies breaking the rule of one H1-B application per person. Question is how widespread was this, or is this within the expected range of bad eggs that will occur in any situation.

[Gus]

The real entitlement is the one who claims that i got here first and tries to close the door and piss on the rest.

[chanakyaa]

..."Free markets" to Americans is like "Jesus" to Christians, holy thing not to be examined closely or criticized.

This one goes to my personal library of quotes. In the meantime, financial regulations being unwound.

Make Bribery/Corruption Great Again

...
The Senate voted strictly along party lines Friday morning to repeal a regulation requiring disclosures for the payments that energy companies make to foreign governments.

The measure passed 52-47 in a pre-dawn vote.

The Securities and Exchange Commission’s (SEC) foreign payments rule was mandated by a key provision of the 2010 Dodd-Frank financial reform bill and was meant to reduce corruption in resource-rich countries by detailing the royalties and other payments that oil, natural gas, coal and mineral companies make to governments.
...

[chetak]

So, it was indeed a gentle clinton shakedown afterall. No different from the mafia queen



The Clinton Foundation just vindicated its critics.

The Clinton Foundation just vindicated its critics.

by JIM GERAGHTY January 16, 2017

The Clinton Foundation just vindicated its critics. The Clinton Foundation filed papers this week warning that 22 staffers will be laid off on April 15, when the Clinton Global Initiative is formally shut down.

The CGI is a program of the Clinton Foundation, centered around an annual meeting described as “the networking event of choice for corporations, nonprofits, nongovernmental organizations and wealthy philanthropists.” Before the election, when Hillary Clinton’s victory in the presidential race appeared likely, the Clinton Foundation declared that it would wind down the initiative no matter how the election turned out.

At the time, those plans made sense: It would be unseemly to say the least if a corporate- and foreign-government-funded networking event was directly connected to the sitting president. But there was never much official explanation of why CGI would need to shut down in the case of a Clinton defeat. After all, the world didn’t run out of poor people or sick people on November 8.

But after the election, some of the foundation’s donors acted as if the causes CGI supported were no longer worthy. The Australian government said it did not intend to continue its donations to the Clinton Foundation; it had given $88 million over ten years. After dramatically increasing its yearly donation in 2014 and 2015, the government of Norway chose to reduce its donation by 87 percent after the election.

Why would foreign governments suddenly lose interest in the charitable work the Clinton Foundation purported to do? They wouldn’t, unless the Clinton Foundation and CGI had existed to give foreign governments and businessmen a way to curry favor with a future president from the beginning. The April shutdown, then, makes complete sense: Why keep operating if there’s no influence left to peddle?

Clinton fans will vehemently deny that there’s anything to this cynical explanation, but the behavior of many foundation partners suggests that selling access and goodwill was a big part of the organization’s operations. Right before the election, one of the infamous WIkiLeaks documents revealed just how blurry the line was between the foundation’s non-profit activities and Bill Clinton’s for-profit activities.

In a 2011 memo to Bill Clinton, Chelsea Clinton, John Podesta, and other members of the foundation’s board, the ex-president’s longtime aide Doug Band attempted to “clarify my activities on behalf of the President — both on behalf of non-profit Foundation activities and the management of the his [sic] for-profit business opportunities.” Band’s firm, Teneo, had consulted and raised money for the Clinton Foundation while simultaneously securing lucrative speaking and consulting gigs for the former president:

We have dedicated ourselves to helping the President secure and engage in for-profit activities — including speeches, books, and advisory service engagements. In that context, we have in effect served as agents, lawyers, managers and implementers to secure speaking, business and advisory service deals. In support of the President’s for-profit activity, we also have solicited and obtained, as appropriate, in-kind services for the President and his family — for personal travel, hospitality, vacation and the like. Neither Justin nor I are separately compensated for these activities (e.g., we do not receive a fee for, or percentage of, the more than $50 million in for-profit activity we have personally helped to secure for President Clinton to date or the $66 million in future contracts, should he choose to continue with those engagements).

With respect to business deals for his advisory services, Justin and I found, developed and brought to President Clinton multiple arrangements for him to accept or reject. Of his current 4 arrangements, we secured all of them; and, we have helped manage and maintain all of his for-profit business relationships for the past 11 years. Since 2001, President Clinton’s business arrangements have yielded more than $30 million for him personally, with $66 million to be paid out over the next nine years should he choose to continue with the current engagements.

In short, when Band and his colleagues called up wealthy individuals and institutions — all of whom would have a strong incentive to be on good terms with Hillary Clinton, the likely future president — they sought financial help for the foundation and lucrative work for Bill Clinton. The line between charitable giving and the Clintons’ personal enrichment was exceptionally blurry, and those involved knew it.

The simplest, easiest way for the Clintons, foundation donors, staffers, and allies to prove all the cynics wrong was for the foundation to operate after the election the same way it did before, proving that its purpose was genuinely charitable and altruistic rather than political. Instead, they’ve chosen to shut down CGI. The rest of us can draw our own conclusions as to why.

— Jim Geraghty is National Review’s senior political correspondent

[KJo]

The real entitlement is the one who claims that i got here first and tries to close the door and piss on the rest.

Lots of in this thread.

The same people were all for DeMo when they thought they would now be able to stick it to the BM hoarders. They complained when China dumped goods in India killing off several industries. Now they are okay with the large scale fraud of visas as long as they benefit.

Where are ethics, hain?

Maybe since we are all begging for undeserved freebies, I should ask Sundar Sir or Satya Sir for a Vee Pee level job in Chacha or Mickey. Since they are South Indians like me, they might just let me through without interview.

[Dipanker]

So, it was indeed a gentle clinton shakedown afterall. No different from the mafia queen

The Clinton Foundation just vindicated its critics.

There is only one problem with the conclusion, National Review is right wing rag, and therefore has very little mainstream credibility.

[chetak]

So, it was indeed a gentle clinton shakedown afterall. No different from the mafia queen

The Clinton Foundation just vindicated its critics.

There is only one problem with the conclusion, National Review is right wing rag, and therefore has very little mainstream credibility.

It's still the truth, ain't it??

[darshan]

The real entitlement is the one who claims that i got here first and tries to close the door and piss on the rest.

Or more like that they are closing door by themselves by not flying under the radar and painting big target on their backs. Time and time I have seen many go with attitude of we have arrived. Fine. Keep it to four corners of US. It is on similar line as desi finance guy calling their arrival at wall street. All they ended up doing was making a list of potential scapegoats for information exchange to their buddies in regulatory department. For example, around 2006 or so in phoenix area it was common for non immigrant visa holders to brag about how easy it is for them to lease out expensive cars and get mortgages even though they do not even know if they will be here next year. Yes, the financial system was available to exploit and it was not their fault and nothing was wrong in taking advantage of it. However, was it really smart of them to openly brag and flaunt about it? Similar is happening pretty much again all over Texas's metroplexes. Another common behavior I see is joining hands to fight causes and forces against white people that they should not. Many just simply forget that you do not have LULAC, NAACP, or KSA funded mosques to back you up.

Even with GC and citizenship in hand, it is fallacy to think they you have arrived and act like it. Nonwhite person has not arrived and would not arrive for long long time.

On SS and medicare payments, that would not be anywhere close to being considered serious amount of money for some lawmaker to say let us allow H1s.

[Dipanker]

There is only one problem with the conclusion, National Review is right wing rag, and therefore has very little mainstream credibility.

It's still the truth, ain't it??

More like "alternate facts" or per writer's own admission in the article a rather "cynical interpretation", with very little mainstream credibility by virtue of being published in a right wing rag.

[Lilo]

So, it was indeed a gentle clinton shakedown afterall. No different from the mafia queen

The Clinton Foundation just vindicated its critics.

There is only one problem with the conclusion, National Review is right wing rag, and therefore has very little mainstream credibility.

It's still the truth, ain't it??

More like "alternate facts" or per writer's own admission in the article a rather "cynical interpretation", with very little mainstream credibility by virtue of being published in a right wing rag.

So Dipanker ji,
According to you only left wing rags have "mainstream" credibility ?

[Suresh S]

The "competitive edge" cited by most Indian companies is that Indians work cheap and the Indian rupee keeps falling. Period. But.. that idea of Indian companies taking the initiative in developing concepts suited first for India, then the world, would be too deep for some of our dear postors.

The above message and some comments above by durvasa I do like.

In the same vein I wonder why Patanjali by Baba Ramdev is so successful. Reason as stated above by UB

[UlanBatori]

The real entitlement is the one who claims that i got here first and tries to close the door and piss on the rest.

This kind of gratuitous comment is what has been stinking up this thread (and much of the forum) for months, some ppl trying desperately to get others to hold their noses and then claiming injury and Hurt Feelings. First a lot of pompous know-it-alls who sought to lord it over everyone on how they had predicted the US elections down to the last detail (not to mention Currency DeMo where they stubbed their mijjiles later by asking others to "Check Ur Data!" ) and then getting all depressed when their utter incompetence and pompousness was exposed by simple reality. People over 3 years mental age should know better, or go get treatment. At any rate, should please refrain from such nonsense. To paraphrase the Delta Airlines slogan: Pa*De* Is Ready When U R

This thread is, as I understand, about Understanding the USA. That's United States of America, not Utility of Software Assistants. Not about whether H1B olders/applicants/aspirants/converters to GC from India are Heroic (recent post put them on par with those who climbed the cliffs of Drass in 1999). This is called "wrapping urself in the flag". Pls don't wipe ur asses with India's flag, thanks.

The H1B as I understand, replaced what was called the "5th Preference" in old INS parlance. It was not the "3rd Preference" (Alien of Exceptional Merit or Ability) which is what musicians, gourmet cooks, maybe supermodels such as Mrs. Trump, Vijay Amrithraj, Yesudas, and most PhD-earners such as Dr. Angana Chatterji all applied under.

In those days the 5th Pref had few slots. "Highly Skilled Workers": the thought of America needing to import those induced cognitive dissonance. Maybe medical doctors and nurses (many of the pioneers of present Indian families in the US) were admitted under that.

The 1980s onwards, with the Silicon Valley revolution, created immense demand for software people. Thus the H1B was created, and became a flood by "Y2K", peaking circa 1999 and crashing in 2001-2003, bottoming maybe in 2004. It was always highly controversial, because software engineering was certainly not unknown in the US, but the explosively inflating "IT" economy demanded ever-rising numbers. Indian companies were delighted to oblige, and it became a mass market - but still getting the best from Indian STEM institutions.

In 2000, the COTUS had a tough debate on this, as companies demanded even more increase. They mandated that fees were to be hiked, and 1/3 of the fees were to be given directly to the National Science Foundation to CREATE more STEM workforce entrants. My E6C would know about that, personally led a project that got 200 ppl into the US STEM workforce that way - every one came from pretty poor families and would not have been able to afford the education that they got, otherwise. Which is part of the point: In the US, the education needed to get STEM credentials is very expensive, and there are tens of thousands, maybe millions who cannot get these credentials, not because they are stupider than alums of Raju's Typewriter and Oracle Operator Production Line and University, but because they are too poor to afford the cost, with or without Federal Student Loans etc.

Anyone who keeps fa*ting here without acknowledging that basic point, is either being ignorant or worse. The STEM "shortage" so ably and admirably filled by Raju's grads, is not because there is full employment in the US, nor because the unemployed are stupid. It is because, to a large extent, college education needed to qualify for these jobs, is too expensive. And in the US, credentials are easy to verify, not like Raju's grads or Karachi madarssa grads. Yes, companies do hire people w/o college degrees, but by and large those are exceptional personal cases, not via corporate recruiting.

So people who go $100,000 into debt getting that STEM degree, are not able to survive on $15K/yr jobs - they can't eat and get healthcare and housing and pay off their student loans. OTOH, in India, a would-be MBA gets offered Rs. 60K per year $882, recent actual data in Malloostan) to do the equivalent of "BPO" for a retail firm. Or now just a few "Supplees" from MBA the same kid earns a princely Rs. 180,000 per year as a Renault car showroom floor salesman. If he had the slightest ability to pass math, he could have become a Raju's grad and got shipped to, say, Hawaii making a minimum of what? $50K per year + air tickets around the world. Not a bad deal, so Indians are available in plenty to work for what Americans cannot work. It's not about luxury, it is basic econ 101.

That is the second point to understand. It is behind the growing resentment against Indians. Not because Indians are less law-abiding (they are not) or dirty or cruel or rude (few are) but because they are taking the only avenues of employment that might have been available for hundreds of thousands of Americans. Who thus have to seek minimum-wage jobs.

No government that ignores such realities, deserves to be in power. Which is why Trump's message was resonant: He was and is ***NOT*** against the h1B per se, and certainly not (**YET***) against Indians, but he railed against ABUSE of the H1B to bring in people who were neither HIGHLY SKILLED nor unavailable or uncreatable in the US. He says the H1B is being abused SIMPLY TO DEPRESS WAGES in the US and deny a decent living to talented Americans. He is right. He says it should be used to bring in "The Best". Which would benefit India immensely because it will revert the American (informed) opinion of Indians to what it was when they were working mostly with Indian doctors and cooks and dancers and PhDs. Not Rajus' grads. So I believe that the new rationalization of the H1B process is entirely in the best interests of India. H1B limited to 130K/yr jobs?Why not? Why should HIGHLY SKILLED workers in America be denied that level? The others who are low-skilled can compete with other low-skilled people, not be imported into America.

For that matter, the young Bengali kid I saw this time in Malloostan, installing solar panels and biogas systems, had only a 6th grade education. Too poor to go beyond, he had to work or his family would starve. So he could not find any job that required an SSLC. So he migrated to distant Malloostan to work as, yes, a much-dissed "coolie". Bright as a button! Trusted with anything. Superb work ethic. And when DeMO came, he was in no trouble, because he had always been paid via bank account transfer, because the kid needed to wire most of that princely laborer's wage back to his mother and sisters in Bengal. Tell me that that kid is not as smart or deserving as a Rajus' grad, and I will tell you you are a phool. IOW, right now, India is exporting a lot of garbage along with good people with little differentiation. Just like exporting Basmati Rice with Mice Schidt. This will kill the brand reputation, but of course, Indians appear to revel in that. "V r like that onlee!"

Germans are respected in the US not because Americans love Nazis or because they have forgotten their relatives killed in WW2. It is because there is a halo around Germans (even the 90% I've seen in Ulan Bator who are utterly without any semblance of ethics, and even despite Volkswagen executives' proven dishonesty). This is because people are convinced that "Germans are superb skilled workers!" and "Germany has a fabulous education system". I too can give plenty of examples of biss-boor German engineering graduates who were lazy, crooked and disgustingly whiny beyond belief. BUT.. I tried dissing German cars here (they get all black circles in Consumer Reports not without reason), and some BRF expert sneered. They should know of course.

So what happened to the NSF's program to generate more STEM grads? It started in 2000 as a 4-year project. In 2003 COTUS stopped funding - STEM grades were unemployed in immense numbers and H1B was cut sharply back. NSF called some people in, such as E6C, and gave them $400K cash for the next 4 years, saying: "U r doing such a super job, here, take this cash before COTUS takes it back, continue for the next 4 years, may Al**h be with u!"
At the end of that NSF came out with a new program. The parameters were changed. The New Program Aphsar at NSF didn't want to 'waste' time dealing with the large numbers of yaks that E6C was successfully mentoring. Instead, they wanted the $100K per year to be given out to no more than 10 yaks, meaning 10K per yak instead of the 3K to pay fees at the Ulan Bator Taap Madarssa and the expert guidance to go get jobs at taap industry places. IOW, the ability to conduct a decent program was destroyed.

And who was the lazy NEW NSF PROGRAM APHSAR who had this bright idea? A desi wimmens, of course.

So ppl, get off the soosai-vest defense of H1B Raju's grads. That's not the issue. The issue is misuse of the program, with misuse not defined as "r v within the narrow parameters of the law by twisting under the wire?" But "is this abuse in the best interest of India and the US?" Because if it is not in both, it is bad. The US government, trumpet or not, HAS to crack down, and India needs to be weaned off the "Cheap Export of Mice Schidt Basmati Rice is Our Tradition, People Are No Exception" garbage.

As for the "ppl who got here first and slammed the door", those who say that are, well, Persons Of Stature. P.O.S. for short.
Those who worked hard to build a reputation for Indians, do care to try and see that the tradition and reputation are not trashed by the P.O.S. coming under the wire. That's not because they want to obstruct good desis, it is to try very hard to keep the door OPEN for good desis. A door that is getting slammed shut because of the abuse.

[Vikas]

Lets not forget that it was the IT talent mostly on H1-B visa that put India and Indians on IT world map and got respect for Indians who were already there in US including the PIO and OCI. To call them incompetent or frauds is personal negative biases of the posters oozing out.
Like someone posted above, H1 is ultimately an issue of free trade and not a favor by US Govt.

[habal]

mainly H1 is an issue because USA has armtwisted leaders of G-20 to accept US $ as reserve currency and currency to pay off any fuel purchases and crtical international banking settlements. What they are doing is blackmail, by threat of war or destabilization or threatening to topple regimes of non-compliant states which State Dept of USA is now an expert at.

If world trade is free, then nobody needa US $ to pay for fuel bills. Nobody needs to send H1s to lick gora a$$ in USA. No need for US $ either.

[UlanBatori]

Or Indian companies could put those hordes to work harnessing solar and biogas power, and wean India OFF the fuel import so you don't have to "lick XYZ's arses" (actually it is Arab arses, not American, enjoy the thought..). And get them to develop the software for the airplanes and engines that must now be imported. Then there would be no need for US dollars at all.

But that would take thought and effort.

hmmm! Good time to declare a vacation b4 the dhaga polis come vijiting, I think.

[Gus]

Lol..The ones who came early and thought they were special .. Cannot digest that they are not so...

[ManSingh]

Wage theory:
At least in my domain, desi companies(Infy, TCS etc. ) charge 75-100 USD an hour for desi H1B consultants. This comes to around 160K $ to 212K $ per year. Of course, consultants themselves get less than 50% of this amount per annum. Plus in many domain(s), there isn't much scope for offshoring. So it's mostly entire teams at onsite.

Why would an american firm who can hire americans cheaper, give such work to desi companies in such a scenario? Not sure what people who say H1B workers depress wages are talking about.

Supposedly if stopping H1B increase technology sector wages in US, then it would also cause work to be done elsewhere i.e. much more offshoring than present.

Skills Theory: There seems to be a very negative aura of technology skills in desi IT MNC's on this forum. Maybe it was true in 2000's but not any more. I have seen fortune 50 client looking for a certain skill(s) within their own firm as well as local market(s). Either the person skilled is not willing to move or demands the moon. Ultimately the position was filled by an offshore consultant( and a very good one ) from much maligned ( on this forum ) company. I have seen this story repeat over and over again in my limited( and recent ) US experience.

My 2 cents:

1) There is a difference between Engineering and IT skills. Most US universities create engineers with a USD 100K in debt. Most ( not all ) work doesn't need that high level of skill or requires skill that is very different from engineering. Hence firms can't pay that kind of wage(s). This is where americans loose out to Indians. Low debt and more technology skill( yes Indians are better in some skills ) makes them more attractive.

2) Unwillingness of older americans to teach fresh joinee(s). In India, when a fresher joins a company out of college, he gets 2 or 3 years to grow and learn his skill. Generally team leads, managers etc. are more tolerant of green horns. So ultimately, when he gets onsite ( 6-8 years plus ), he has grown from a fresher. In USA, senior engineers i.e. 50+ treat young americans with disdain. They are either viewed as utterly incompetent or competition. Ultimately the poor guy either freaks out or goes for a master's degree adding to his debt.

Take it for it's worth.

[Dipanker]

Can India walk and chew gum at the same time?

There is a market worth 100's of billion for relatively routine software jobs in US and India has been successful in carving out a chunk of that as a source of income for itself.

Should India relinquish this $100+ billion of income and leave to the other nations such as China, Russia, Philippines, Ukraine, Ireland or whosoever is willing to fill the void, so that India can exclusively focus on higher end of the market segment?

The answer is obvious, India should do both.

[kiranA]

Yes, good points all of them, KiranA!

PS: I have heard about IT companies breaking the rule of one H1-B application per person. Question is how widespread was this, or is this within the expected range of bad eggs that will occur in any situation.

Not true. Its mostly candidates who pleads different companies to file their application to improve their odds in lottery. That is allowed - more moolah for US govt. I dont think even a single company does multiple filing.

[Gus]

I've never heard of single company doing multiple for same person. Nothing stops from one person getting many offers and each of them filing for him. It has become a cycle..People file many times because they don't get lottery and they don't get lottery because people file multiple...

[kiranA]

The real entitlement is the one who claims that i got here first and tries to close the door and piss on the rest.

This kind of gratuitous comment is what has been stinking up this thread (and much of the forum) for months, some ppl trying desperately to get others to hold their noses and then claiming injury and Hurt Feelings. First a lot of pompous know-it-alls who sought to lord it over everyone on how they had predicted the US elections down to the last detail (not to mention Currency DeMo where they stubbed their mijjiles later by asking others to "Check Ur Data!" ) and then getting all depressed when their utter incompetence and pompousness was exposed by simple reality. People over 3 years mental age should know better, or go get treatment. At any rate, should please refrain from such nonsense. To paraphrase the Delta Airlines slogan: Pa*De* Is Ready When U R

This thread is, as I understand, about Understanding the USA. That's United States of America, not Utility of Software Assistants. Not about whether H1B olders/applicants/aspirants/converters to GC from India are Heroic (recent post put them on par with those who climbed the cliffs of Drass in 1999). This is called "wrapping urself in the flag". Pls don't wipe ur asses with India's flag, thanks.

The H1B as I understand, replaced what was called the "5th Preference" in old INS parlance. It was not the "3rd Preference" (Alien of Exceptional Merit or Ability) which is what musicians, gourmet cooks, maybe supermodels such as Mrs. Trump, Vijay Amrithraj, Yesudas, and most PhD-earners such as Dr. Angana Chatterji all applied under.

In those days the 5th Pref had few slots. "Highly Skilled Workers": the thought of America needing to import those induced cognitive dissonance. Maybe medical doctors and nurses (many of the pioneers of present Indian families in the US) were admitted under that.

The 1980s onwards, with the Silicon Valley revolution, created immense demand for software people. Thus the H1B was created, and became a flood by "Y2K", peaking circa 1999 and crashing in 2001-2003, bottoming maybe in 2004. It was always highly controversial, because software engineering was certainly not unknown in the US, but the explosively inflating "IT" economy demanded ever-rising numbers. Indian companies were delighted to oblige, and it became a mass market - but still getting the best from Indian STEM institutions.

In 2000, the COTUS had a tough debate on this, as companies demanded even more increase. They mandated that fees were to be hiked, and 1/3 of the fees were to be given directly to the National Science Foundation to CREATE more STEM workforce entrants. My E6C would know about that, personally led a project that got 200 ppl into the US STEM workforce that way - every one came from pretty poor families and would not have been able to afford the education that they got, otherwise. Which is part of the point: In the US, the education needed to get STEM credentials is very expensive, and there are tens of thousands, maybe millions who cannot get these credentials, not because they are stupider than alums of Raju's Typewriter and Oracle Operator Production Line and University, but because they are too poor to afford the cost, with or without Federal Student Loans etc.

Anyone who keeps fa*ting here without acknowledging that basic point, is either being ignorant or worse. The STEM "shortage" so ably and admirably filled by Raju's grads, is not because there is full employment in the US, nor because the unemployed are stupid. It is because, to a large extent, college education needed to qualify for these jobs, is too expensive. And in the US, credentials are easy to verify, not like Raju's grads or Karachi madarssa grads. Yes, companies do hire people w/o college degrees, but by and large those are exceptional personal cases, not via corporate recruiting.

So people who go $100,000 into debt getting that STEM degree, are not able to survive on $15K/yr jobs - they can't eat and get healthcare and housing and pay off their student loans. OTOH, in India, a would-be MBA gets offered Rs. 60K per year $882, recent actual data in Malloostan) to do the equivalent of "BPO" for a retail firm. Or now just a few "Supplees" from MBA the same kid earns a princely Rs. 180,000 per year as a Renault car showroom floor salesman. If he had the slightest ability to pass math, he could have become a Raju's grad and got shipped to, say, Hawaii making a minimum of what? $50K per year + air tickets around the world. Not a bad deal, so Indians are available in plenty to work for what Americans cannot work. It's not about luxury, it is basic econ 101.

That is the second point to understand. It is behind the growing resentment against Indians. Not because Indians are less law-abiding (they are not) or dirty or cruel or rude (few are) but because they are taking the only avenues of employment that might have been available for hundreds of thousands of Americans. Who thus have to seek minimum-wage jobs.

No government that ignores such realities, deserves to be in power. Which is why Trump's message was resonant: He was and is ***NOT*** against the h1B per se, and certainly not (**YET***) against Indians, but he railed against ABUSE of the H1B to bring in people who were neither HIGHLY SKILLED nor unavailable or uncreatable in the US. He says the H1B is being abused SIMPLY TO DEPRESS WAGES in the US and deny a decent living to talented Americans. He is right. He says it should be used to bring in "The Best". Which would benefit India immensely because it will revert the American (informed) opinion of Indians to what it was when they were working mostly with Indian doctors and cooks and dancers and PhDs. Not Rajus' grads. So I believe that the new rationalization of the H1B process is entirely in the best interests of India. H1B limited to 130K/yr jobs?Why not? Why should HIGHLY SKILLED workers in America be denied that level? The others who are low-skilled can compete with other low-skilled people, not be imported into America.

For that matter, the young Bengali kid I saw this time in Malloostan, installing solar panels and biogas systems, had only a 6th grade education. Too poor to go beyond, he had to work or his family would starve. So he could not find any job that required an SSLC. So he migrated to distant Malloostan to work as, yes, a much-dissed "coolie". Bright as a button! Trusted with anything. Superb work ethic. And when DeMO came, he was in no trouble, because he had always been paid via bank account transfer, because the kid needed to wire most of that princely laborer's wage back to his mother and sisters in Bengal. Tell me that that kid is not as smart or deserving as a Rajus' grad, and I will tell you you are a phool. IOW, right now, India is exporting a lot of garbage along with good people with little differentiation. Just like exporting Basmati Rice with Mice Schidt. This will kill the brand reputation, but of course, Indians appear to revel in that. "V r like that onlee!"

Germans are respected in the US not because Americans love Nazis or because they have forgotten their relatives killed in WW2. It is because there is a halo around Germans (even the 90% I've seen in Ulan Bator who are utterly without any semblance of ethics, and even despite Volkswagen executives' proven dishonesty). This is because people are convinced that "Germans are superb skilled workers!" and "Germany has a fabulous education system". I too can give plenty of examples of biss-boor German engineering graduates who were lazy, crooked and disgustingly whiny beyond belief. BUT.. I tried dissing German cars here (they get all black circles in Consumer Reports not without reason), and some BRF expert sneered. They should know of course.

So what happened to the NSF's program to generate more STEM grads? It started in 2000 as a 4-year project. In 2003 COTUS stopped funding - STEM grades were unemployed in immense numbers and H1B was cut sharply back. NSF called some people in, such as E6C, and gave them $400K cash for the next 4 years, saying: "U r doing such a super job, here, take this cash before COTUS takes it back, continue for the next 4 years, may Al**h be with u!"
At the end of that NSF came out with a new program. The parameters were changed. The New Program Aphsar at NSF didn't want to 'waste' time dealing with the large numbers of yaks that E6C was successfully mentoring. Instead, they wanted the $100K per year to be given out to no more than 10 yaks, meaning 10K per yak instead of the 3K to pay fees at the Ulan Bator Taap Madarssa and the expert guidance to go get jobs at taap industry places. IOW, the ability to conduct a decent program was destroyed.

And who was the lazy NEW NSF PROGRAM APHSAR who had this bright idea? A desi wimmens, of course.

So ppl, get off the soosai-vest defense of H1B Raju's grads. That's not the issue. The issue is misuse of the program, with misuse not defined as "r v within the narrow parameters of the law by twisting under the wire?" But "is this abuse in the best interest of India and the US?" Because if it is not in both, it is bad. The US government, trumpet or not, HAS to crack down, and India needs to be weaned off the "Cheap Export of Mice Schidt Basmati Rice is Our Tradition, People Are No Exception" garbage.

As for the "ppl who got here first and slammed the door", those who say that are, well, Persons Of Stature. P.O.S. for short.
Those who worked hard to build a reputation for Indians, do care to try and see that the tradition and reputation are not trashed by the P.O.S. coming under the wire. That's not because they want to obstruct good desis, it is to try very hard to keep the door OPEN for good desis. A door that is getting slammed shut because of the abuse.

The above "Person of Stature" apparently believes indians should come to USA to work only in his personally approved jobs - doctors, cooks, dancers and phd's. And believes he is the purveyor of what is "good" what is "smart" and what is not . Delusional or what ?

H1b visa is given to american companies not to Indian individuals. American companies can have their pick from entire world and if they choose indian companies it needs to be respected. There is no question anywhere of indians imposing themselves on USA.

[Gus]

It is not like indians are forcing US to hire h1bs and that too "stupid" indians...Who so annoy the special ones.

[pravula]

Lol..The ones who came early and thought they were special .. Cannot digest that they are not so...

+1

Grew up hearing how they walked 10 KM bare foot to school every day and how these kids with their shoes and a backpack (not twine) and a bicycle are pampered shit, good for nothings. This behaviour is common among desis.

[Gus]

Seen the same shitty attitude from ABCD kids at school towards PIGS (poor Indian grad student)..The disdain and taunts of accents and..The indianness and such ...The embarrassment they feel about the FOB who is quite oblivious to all this crap..

[g.sarkar]

Wrong thread.

[pravula]

Seen the same shitty attitude from ABCD kids at school towards PIGS (poor Indian grad student)..The disdain and taunts of accents and..The indianness and such ...The embarrassment they feel about the FOB who is quite oblivious to all this crap..

Yep, see that and the closest non desi behaviour I have seen is from African Americans denigrating recent African immigrants.

[Yayavar]

The real entitlement is the one who claims that i got here first and tries to close the door and piss on the rest.

This kind of gratuitous comment is what has been stinking up this thread (and much of the forum) for months, some ppl trying desperately to get others to hold their noses and then claiming injury and Hurt Feelings. First a lot of pompous know-it-alls who sought to lord it over everyone on how they had predicted the US elections down to the last detail (not to mention Currency DeMo where they stubbed their mijjiles later by asking others to "Check Ur Data!" ) and then getting all depressed when their utter incompetence and pompousness was exposed by simple reality. People over 3 years mental age should know better, or go get treatment. At any rate, should please refrain from such nonsense. To paraphrase the Delta Airlines slogan: Pa*De* Is Ready When U R

This thread is, as I understand, about Understanding the USA. That's United States of America, not Utility of Software Assistants. Not about whether H1B olders/applicants/aspirants/converters to GC from India are Heroic (recent post put them on par with those who climbed the cliffs of Drass in 1999). This is called "wrapping urself in the flag". Pls don't wipe ur asses with India's flag, thanks.

The H1B as I understand, replaced what was called the "5th Preference" in old INS parlance. It was not the "3rd Preference" (Alien of Exceptional Merit or Ability) which is what musicians, gourmet cooks, maybe supermodels such as Mrs. Trump, Vijay Amrithraj, Yesudas, and most PhD-earners such as Dr. Angana Chatterji all applied under.

In those days the 5th Pref had few slots. "Highly Skilled Workers": the thought of America needing to import those induced cognitive dissonance. Maybe medical doctors and nurses (many of the pioneers of present Indian families in the US) were admitted under that.

The 1980s onwards, with the Silicon Valley revolution, created immense demand for software people. Thus the H1B was created, and became a flood by "Y2K", peaking circa 1999 and crashing in 2001-2003, bottoming maybe in 2004. It was always highly controversial, because software engineering was certainly not unknown in the US, but the explosively inflating "IT" economy demanded ever-rising numbers. Indian companies were delighted to oblige, and it became a mass market - but still getting the best from Indian STEM institutions.

In 2000, the COTUS had a tough debate on this, as companies demanded even more increase. They mandated that fees were to be hiked, and 1/3 of the fees were to be given directly to the National Science Foundation to CREATE more STEM workforce entrants. My E6C would know about that, personally led a project that got 200 ppl into the US STEM workforce that way - every one came from pretty poor families and would not have been able to afford the education that they got, otherwise. Which is part of the point: In the US, the education needed to get STEM credentials is very expensive, and there are tens of thousands, maybe millions who cannot get these credentials, not because they are stupider than alums of Raju's Typewriter and Oracle Operator Production Line and University, but because they are too poor to afford the cost, with or without Federal Student Loans etc.

Anyone who keeps fa*ting here without acknowledging that basic point, is either being ignorant or worse. The STEM "shortage" so ably and admirably filled by Raju's grads, is not because there is full employment in the US, nor because the unemployed are stupid. It is because, to a large extent, college education needed to qualify for these jobs, is too expensive. And in the US, credentials are easy to verify, not like Raju's grads or Karachi madarssa grads. Yes, companies do hire people w/o college degrees, but by and large those are exceptional personal cases, not via corporate recruiting.

So people who go $100,000 into debt getting that STEM degree, are not able to survive on $15K/yr jobs - they can't eat and get healthcare and housing and pay off their student loans. OTOH, in India, a would-be MBA gets offered Rs. 60K per year $882, recent actual data in Malloostan) to do the equivalent of "BPO" for a retail firm. Or now just a few "Supplees" from MBA the same kid earns a princely Rs. 180,000 per year as a Renault car showroom floor salesman. If he had the slightest ability to pass math, he could have become a Raju's grad and got shipped to, say, Hawaii making a minimum of what? $50K per year + air tickets around the world. Not a bad deal, so Indians are available in plenty to work for what Americans cannot work. It's not about luxury, it is basic econ 101.

That is the second point to understand. It is behind the growing resentment against Indians. Not because Indians are less law-abiding (they are not) or dirty or cruel or rude (few are) but because they are taking the only avenues of employment that might have been available for hundreds of thousands of Americans. Who thus have to seek minimum-wage jobs.

No government that ignores such realities, deserves to be in power. Which is why Trump's message was resonant: He was and is ***NOT*** against the h1B per se, and certainly not (**YET***) against Indians, but he railed against ABUSE of the H1B to bring in people who were neither HIGHLY SKILLED nor unavailable or uncreatable in the US. He says the H1B is being abused SIMPLY TO DEPRESS WAGES in the US and deny a decent living to talented Americans. He is right. He says it should be used to bring in "The Best". Which would benefit India immensely because it will revert the American (informed) opinion of Indians to what it was when they were working mostly with Indian doctors and cooks and dancers and PhDs. Not Rajus' grads. So I believe that the new rationalization of the H1B process is entirely in the best interests of India. H1B limited to 130K/yr jobs?Why not? Why should HIGHLY SKILLED workers in America be denied that level? The others who are low-skilled can compete with other low-skilled people, not be imported into America.

For that matter, the young Bengali kid I saw this time in Malloostan, installing solar panels and biogas systems, had only a 6th grade education. Too poor to go beyond, he had to work or his family would starve. So he could not find any job that required an SSLC. So he migrated to distant Malloostan to work as, yes, a much-dissed "coolie". Bright as a button! Trusted with anything. Superb work ethic. And when DeMO came, he was in no trouble, because he had always been paid via bank account transfer, because the kid needed to wire most of that princely laborer's wage back to his mother and sisters in Bengal. Tell me that that kid is not as smart or deserving as a Rajus' grad, and I will tell you you are a phool. IOW, right now, India is exporting a lot of garbage along with good people with little differentiation. Just like exporting Basmati Rice with Mice Schidt. This will kill the brand reputation, but of course, Indians appear to revel in that. "V r like that onlee!"

Germans are respected in the US not because Americans love Nazis or because they have forgotten their relatives killed in WW2. It is because there is a halo around Germans (even the 90% I've seen in Ulan Bator who are utterly without any semblance of ethics, and even despite Volkswagen executives' proven dishonesty). This is because people are convinced that "Germans are superb skilled workers!" and "Germany has a fabulous education system". I too can give plenty of examples of biss-boor German engineering graduates who were lazy, crooked and disgustingly whiny beyond belief. BUT.. I tried dissing German cars here (they get all black circles in Consumer Reports not without reason), and some BRF expert sneered. They should know of course.

So what happened to the NSF's program to generate more STEM grads? It started in 2000 as a 4-year project. In 2003 COTUS stopped funding - STEM grades were unemployed in immense numbers and H1B was cut sharply back. NSF called some people in, such as E6C, and gave them $400K cash for the next 4 years, saying: "U r doing such a super job, here, take this cash before COTUS takes it back, continue for the next 4 years, may Al**h be with u!"
At the end of that NSF came out with a new program. The parameters were changed. The New Program Aphsar at NSF didn't want to 'waste' time dealing with the large numbers of yaks that E6C was successfully mentoring. Instead, they wanted the $100K per year to be given out to no more than 10 yaks, meaning 10K per yak instead of the 3K to pay fees at the Ulan Bator Taap Madarssa and the expert guidance to go get jobs at taap industry places. IOW, the ability to conduct a decent program was destroyed.

And who was the lazy NEW NSF PROGRAM APHSAR who had this bright idea? A desi wimmens, of course.

So ppl, get off the soosai-vest defense of H1B Raju's grads. That's not the issue. The issue is misuse of the program, with misuse not defined as "r v within the narrow parameters of the law by twisting under the wire?" But "is this abuse in the best interest of India and the US?" Because if it is not in both, it is bad. The US government, trumpet or not, HAS to crack down, and India needs to be weaned off the "Cheap Export of Mice Schidt Basmati Rice is Our Tradition, People Are No Exception" garbage.

As for the "ppl who got here first and slammed the door", those who say that are, well, Persons Of Stature. P.O.S. for short.
Those who worked hard to build a reputation for Indians, do care to try and see that the tradition and reputation are not trashed by the P.O.S. coming under the wire. That's not because they want to obstruct good desis, it is to try very hard to keep the door OPEN for good desis. A door that is getting slammed shut because of the abuse.

What a big write-up though could be more understandable if it was written straight up.
The first issue that was complained was the implicit assumption by the 'already here' that their cohort was smarter and now 'quality' is poor. Self aggrandisement? The older cohort - that included me, so I know - is average as the next cohort. I'm sure it will have the same bell curve at least in my area.

Another important point is that H1B is not 50-60K; there is a higher charge (probably like 120-150) the company pays for the contractor. It comes to be higher than 100K that your presumptive umreeki engineer should get. But it probably saves it on other aspects - a sudden need and company gets more people, after project may let go of people without any issues, no medical and other benefits etc. etc. That is why outsourcing works even better unless you want greater control.

Desis are being hired or are coming because they are being given the opportunity. No one is against correcting the abuse of the system. Certainly the US govt should fix it. But some on this forum need to fix their supercilious attitude against younger cohort of desis.

If the skill set doesn't match the person will be weeded out. That happens everywhere. Even if the 'seniors' feel the people dont have the 'quality' of old, does it matter if the guys do the job that is required of them? As noted, if they dont they will be replaced.

Another aspect to consider is the scope of work - some requiring high skills others not. So one cant go about applying quality scale to the skills set either. As long as people are dong the work required for them they are competent and of the quality needed.

[IndraD]

Germany's influential weekly news magazine Der Spiegel has come under fire for a cover image showing US President Donald Trump beheading the Statue of Liberty.

[LokeshC]

Interesting discussions to say the least. I really dont give a Bakistan about what an average "joe" thinks about IT jobs, or if any "joe engineer" in massa forms an opinion about desis based on the so-called "smelly-TCS-bad-code-writer-SDRE" that destroyed the image of desis in his mind.

If "joe engineer" paints everyone who looks SDRE with such a wide brush because some SDRE gave him software that did a doodoo, then he deserves to be sitting at home getting unemployment benefits.

I look at the bottomline. If the candidate is strong technically and fit to do the job, I hire that candidate (and by that I mean the candidate goes through about 2 days of interviews with background check and other things that involve vetting). There are many H1s who made it, there are many Americans who made it, there are many T1s who made it.

Last but not the least, let us all petition Trump saar and the conmen to remove this abomination hain? (As the German magazine says)

The plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty reads: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[Melwyn]

This thread is again getting derailed by H1B discussion.

[Melwyn]

Meanwhile, trump supporter Christian Syrian's family is denied entry. As expected, angry Joe can't see the diff between a brown peaceful and ultra peaceful.

[Dipanker]

May be all the H1B related posts can be moved to a new thread titled "H1B wars, FOB vs. the early squatters" or something similar.

[kiranA]

There is no doubt immigration away from India is a loss for india. Its to do with India's failure to create high quality jobs or offer a decent quality of middle class life at affordable cost. In this matter even pakistan does a better job - they have pretty good quality and affordable middle class housing thanks to army role in real estate. But that cannot be used to malign, denigrate the work of indian youth on h1b .

Actually any vestige of anti-h1b can eliminated by making them completely non-immigrant - that is you cant apply for green card on h1b. Indian /american companies love this - as it will reduce the cost of salary (no SS/medicare deductions) , increase their leverage on the employees - some of the benefits will be passed to employees too. indian govt will love it too as this means more remittances as h1b's may not be investing in real estate or long term spending within USA. Right wingers in USA need not worry about demographics etc.

I dont know why US govt doesnt do this - I think its a mix of its intent to make as much money as it can from immigrants and at the same time keep tis great traditions of welcoming immigrants. I mean if you cant open your doors to someone who worked for years for your economy how can you call yourself open ?

[JwalaMukhi]

Meanwhile, trump supporter Christian Syrian's family is denied entry.

Very good example to illustrate that the administration is not chasing after "Muslims". And it is not a "muslim ban". It is merely a reflection of loss of confidence in verification and vetting process in Syria and other blacklisted countries where predominant influence is Islamic in governance, incidentally. The worrying factor would be if the ban gets extended not only predominant islamic influence of governance, but also to quasi-islamic (aka pseudo secular) nations. SDREs have no dog in this fight and should know the value of strategic silence. When in doubt look to chinese for guidance in such matters.

As expected, angry Joe can't see the diff between a brown peaceful and ultra peaceful.

Joe, whether angry or not cannot and does not know the difference. The ignorance did not suddenly plummet in couple of months. It was there and it will continue for some time.

[disha]

1) The fraud/abuse in h1b is next to zero. it is one industry where even the smallest player rigorously follows the most arduous regulation set to discourage as much as follows the industry.

- BS. There are several bad apples in the contract industry. In fact several of them are outright criminal. They do worse in India - for example

On 30 May 2016 a massive hunger strike took place in Chennai's IT Corridor on unethical practices of *** infotech Management ...

If 1/10th of the same H1b visa holders had ball$ to use gun., half of the It-vity honchos would be dead.

2) Its disgusting to judge other peoples work if you are not a customer or their employer. And stereotyping few peoples work to entire group is unfit anywhere. but rather surprising such vicious negative stereotypes against Indians in this forum.

It is interesting to see that a callout to bad apples and horrible visa practices is taken as 'negative stereotypes against Indians in this forum'!! Problem with even one rotten bad apple is that they spoil the whole basket. To say that the fly-by-night operators genuinely hurt the true talented H1b visa seeker (and there are several of them) is not a vicious attack painting negative stereotypes against Indians on this forum.

3) h1b is non-immigration visa. its a trade issue

4) USA can easily eliminate demographic "threat" by removing dual intent from h1b and making it only non-immigrant

Now with the following you are conflating "right to work" to "right to naturalize" arguments., if one exercises "right to naturalize" after working for 8 years., is it wrong? Will the whine then be why there is no "right to naturalize" after making us work for 8 years? What in effect you are asking is the "Barbaria Plan" - come and work here but you cannot live here. Even if you have kids that are born here.

Regarding availing social security and medicare., what is wrong if the person on "work" invokes "right to naturalize"? But wait aren't you complaining about the "right to naturalize" (offering barbaria plan instead)? That sir is hypocritical.

5) USA is a country where even illegal immigrant unskilled labor is celebrated . Ever heard of ceasar chavez ?

If you do not know who caesar chavez is., then look up. He was skilled enough to create UFW (look it up) with 50000 registered members at one time. Now have you ever heard of Chandra X-Ray observatory? Well I will not be surprised if the Indians from a certain region do not even know or care of Yellapragada Subbarao.

Here the best of Indian youth gave their prime years to work on mission critical projects of american corporate behemoths. Why is this forum of all the places so keen to run them down ?

Aren't they being compensated? Or are you saying a person who lies on the resume (there are several I know who have inflated their resume or even copied wholesale from others) should be treated on same par with a person who is both talented and skilled? You know who gets hurt in this? The real genuinely skilled and talented ones., also a long term hurt to the industry.

---

For H1b visa holders who have yet to get their passport stamped cannot avail drop box facility. They will have to schedule an appointment at the consulate for an interview and go there with their H1b paper and passport. The consulate will conduct an interview and on approval will stamp their H1b. Of the three people I know, two of them are not worried while the 6th cousin from the uncle's side who somehow wing'ed a it-vity job after showing a non-existing degree is worried. I did tell the 6th cousin to *not* falsify to get into it-vity but the 6th cousin assured me that the 'consultancy' will take care of everything. But that was before trumpet blew his horn.

[A_Gupta]

The Clinton Global Initiative that is shutting down is one part of the Clinton Foundation, that is, as of January 21st at least, not shutting down.
http://www.snopes.com/clinton-foundatio ... tions-dry/

The Clinton Global Initiative, by the way, was the one arm of the Clinton Foundation that did not solicit funds for the Clinton Foundation. Instead it tried to match donors with potential good causes.

But rely on the National Review. Please continue to do so.

[A_Gupta]

The worrying factor would be if the ban gets extended not only predominant islamic influence of governance, but also to quasi-islamic (aka pseudo secular) nations. SDREs have no dog in this fight and should know the value of strategic silence. When in doubt look to chinese for guidance in such matters.

The 'S' in SDRE no doubt stands for 'Stupid'.

Please read Trump's Executive Order.
Here is a link: https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... ted-states

Read Section 4. Ask lawyers what it means. "Immigration benefits" includes visas of any kind as well as refugee status. "Uniform screen standard" means that Joe Shmoe who wants a tourist visa is subject to the same vetting as a Syrian refugee.

So unbelievable is Trump's executive order that lawyers don't think it will ever be actually implemented. The threat is out there though, and to say SDREs have no dog in this fight is... well, it is increasingly clear that 'S' stands for stupid. Being anti-Muslim has so gotten into people's brains that they can't think straight any more.

[A_Gupta]

Very good example to illustrate that the administration is not chasing after "Muslims". And it is not a "muslim ban".

Also, the background story is that an outright Muslim ban would be directly thrown into the trashcan as unconstitutional. This ban is what Bannon & co came up with after much cogitation, as something that might survive judicial review (and it largely has not). So Trump is out there tweeting angrily about "so-called judges", forgetting - as if he ever knew - that in the US, the executive, the legislature and the judiciary are co-equal branches of government.