India-US relations: News and Discussions III

[Arjun]

And for those interested in more data points, the murderer of Balbir Singh Sodhi was a Hispanic.

Bur the perpetrator of the Wisconsin gurdwara attack that killed 6 was a White supremacist.

[kiranA]

And for those interested in more data points, the murderer of Balbir Singh Sodhi was a Hispanic.

Bur the perpetrator of the Wisconsin gurdwara attack that killed 6 was a White supremacist.

A data point for you - 40% of hispanics are white .

[pravula]

100 mile within US borders is also a constitution free zone, you can be detained perpetually without any rights granted.

Border includes all ports of entry, i.e, International Airports too.

[Viv S]

There is only one explanation, and it's inescapable: the overwhelming racial antagonism and religio-cultural hatred of White Americans for brown Indians.

You don't think this is a gross generalization?

This may seldom come out of the barrel of a gun, but there is NO Desi in the US who hasn't experienced it, in glances, in tones of voice, in social settings, in the professional world (where decisions get taken that sideline us, and for which a false consensus based on some other, inadequate, but non-race-based explanation is invariably manufactured).

I lived in Europe for a while. There was a hostile racist element (perhaps defining itself as ethnic nationalist) but which formed a small minority. On the whole I found them as welcoming as people back home would be of foreign races/ethnicities. Probably more. Maybe.. the US is different.

[Arjun]

A data point for you - 40% of hispanics are white .

Usually the term 'white' in the US is used for White (those who self-identify as 'White') non-Hispanics... at least that is how I am using the term.

[kiranA]

A data point for you - 40% of hispanics are white .

Usually the term 'white' in the US is used for White note-Hispanics... at least that is how I am using the term.

No you are incorrect. Hispanics means those who speak spanish - they can be white, black and anything in between. There are plenty of white hispanics and being essentially white westerns they dont face any discriminiation in USA. They have the luxury of chosing which side they belong to - some retain their identity with darker latinos some prefer to identify them white and many play both sides depending what gives them advantage in a particular situation.

[Arjun]

No you are incorrect. Hispanics means those who speak spanish - they can be white, black and anything in between. There are plenty of white hispanics and being essentially white westerns they dont face any discriminiation in USA. They have the luxury of chosing which side they belong to - some retain their identity with darker latinos some prefer to identify them white and many play both sides depending what gives them advantage in a particular situation.

You''re technically correct in that Hispanic is a term that defines ethnicity and White is a term defining Race.

But practically speaking - the non-Hispanic whites don't accept the Hispanics (whether white or non-white) as part of their club. When we talk of white supremacists we invariably talk of whites of non-Hispanic background.

In case you are getting confused, lets do the classification purely in terms of ethnicity. Of the five hate-crimes that resulted in death to Indian Americans that I listed - three were committed by those of Hispanic ethnicity, and 2 by those of non-Hispanic White (ie North or Central European) ethnicity

[Rudradev]

The dotbuster gang in NJ in late eighties was Hispanic if I am not wrong...

/

Completely wrong, actually.

Late the following night, a five-car caravan of gang members, all in their late teens or early twenties, drove through Hilltop Estates, a sprawling garden apartment complex where hundreds of Indian families live, calling on people to come out of their homes and screaming "dots die" and "we're going to kill you dotheads," according to Paul Goldenberg, head of the state attorney general's Office of Bias Crime and Community Relations.

Goldenberg, a former police officer and undercover detective, said that when he got to the apartment complex a short time later, "People were shaking. They did not believe this was 20th-century America."

The gang's heritage -- judging from the 15 members eventually arrested on assault, theft, criminal mischief and insurance fraud charges -- was a cross section of America: one black; one Jew; several Greeks and Italians; three Filipinos; one half-Filipino and half-Indian and several Anglos, sources said. One of those arrested was an auxiliary police officer.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 8912c6839b


I recommend BRFites read it all... particularly if you're not in denial about "passing" or "being accepted" by White Americans as an "equal".

[Arjun]

Completely wrong, actually.

Like you discounted the car-jackings and other smaller crimes I have also gone only by the crime that resulted in murder - that of Navroze Mody. For Mody's murder:

The four convicted of the attack were Luis Acevedo, Ralph Gonzalez and Luis Padilla, who were convicted of aggravated assault; and William Acevedo, who was convicted of simple assault.

[disha]

The typical Yahoo will defend their abysmal record on human rights around the world by presenting you with a straw man, with obfuscation and with the usual rhetoric. The truth is that the White man has nothing but squatter's rights on the lands which he has occupied, enforced with brutality, with enslavement of one people and near-extermination of another. He has no arguments and no defense because it is indefensible and yet you will hear the usual fly-open/shirt-torn false equivalence.

Precise.

[kiranA]

But practically speaking - the non-Hispanic whites don't accept the Hispanics (whether white or non-white) as part of their club. When we talk of white supremacists we invariably talk of whites of non-Hispanic background.

Not true at all. Yes there is some tension if white hispanics cling to spanish but if they speak english like any other american they have full access to and free participation in white society. Infact if a white hispanic goes to europe such as spain, potugal etc no one even thinks of questioning their identity.

[disha]

No you are incorrect. Hispanics means those who speak spanish - they can be white, black and anything in between. There are plenty of white hispanics and being essentially white westerns they dont face any discriminiation in USA.

KiranA'ji - how many white hispanics have you seen? Yes they do blend in and escape discrimination. But the point is that the NJ dot-buster gang was multicolored but it were the hispanics who did the killing.

[Varoon Shekhar]

Also, that lunatic who pushed the Bengali Indian into the NY subway tracks, was an Hispanic woman. In California, a yahoo Hispanic couple attacked a Sikh, non-fatally.

[g.sarkar]

No you are incorrect. Hispanics means those who speak spanish - they can be white, black and anything in between. There are plenty of white hispanics and being essentially white westerns they dont face any discriminiation in USA. They have the luxury of chosing which side they belong to - some retain their identity with darker latinos some prefer to identify them white and many play both sides depending what gives them advantage in a particular situation.

You''re technically correct in that Hispanic is a term that defines ethnicity and White is a term defining Race.
But practically speaking - the non-Hispanic whites don't accept the Hispanics (whether white or non-white) as part of their club. When we talk of white supremacists we invariably talk of whites of non-Hispanic background.

In USA perception is what matters not genetics. Hispanics may look 100% white, but does it matter? I know some Mexicans of German ancestry, grand father left after 1945, when many Nazis left, not considered white. Take Barrack Obama, he is considered black, but he is 50% white. In Africa he is considered as one of mixed race, here one drop of black will make some one black. In the famous case when Indians were denied citizenship, it said Indians were Aryans but not white. The Japanese were considered white but not Aryan.

[kiranA]

Are people here saying that economically well off Indians are victims of already marginalized, generally poor brown hispanics ? what good will come of that ? A demand to marginalize them further ?

[disha]

In the hoo-ha over how great the liberals were before Trump came., here is a piece for people to read:

http://hudsonreporter.com/printer_friendly/2488227

A physician is beaten to coma & has severe impact on his long term and short term memory., his perpetuators walk free!

And of course Mody who was attacked and murdered by group of teens after DotBusters went public was not racially motivated because 'Mr. Mody knew karate'! http://www.nytimes.com/1989/03/14/nyreg ... dians.html

Latinos aping the goras are also a problem.

[Arjun]

The danger is from the marginalized communities anywhere because it is ultimately linked to economics !

In the big cities and towns - the danger is broadly speaking from Blacks and Hispanics. In the more rural parts of the US, Indians should be wary of the marginalized white rednecks.

[Varoon Shekhar]

The US is full of ignorant gun toting yahoos. In India, violence is almost always domestic or politically oriented. Which is bad too, of course, but you don't see Indian equivalents of Adam Purinton, thank goodness. Can you see an Indian in Mumbai or Delhi, drunk and accosting a Caucasian foreigner, with the line "Do you think you are better than me, you effing foreigner, get out of my country" And then a shooting occurs.

Individuals are accountable for their actions, needless to say, but there is some ultimate institutional cause for so many gun toting ignorant yahoos like Purinton. The educational system, the family, media, government...

[disha]

Are people here saying that economically well off Indians are victims of already marginalized, generally poor brown hispanics ? what good will come of that ? A demand to marginalize them further ?

Sir., you need to really know your hispanics. But before you do., can you please be less racist and stop this broad brush of "economically well off Indians are victims of already marginalized, generally poor brown hispanics"?

Not all hispanics are poor brown and marginalized. And neither all Indians who are victims are well-off. Cited two URLs., it is upto you to read it.

[kiranA]

The danger is from the marginalized communities anywhere because it is ultimately linked to economics !

In the big cities and towns - the danger is broadly speaking from Blacks and Hispanics. In the more rural parts of the US, Indians should be wary of the marginalized white rednecks.

I dont know Arjun. what wrecks your life more - a work place with racist snide remarks for which you get up every morning to work and strive OR some black bum on the street mugging you once in a decade or less whom you will never have to see again except in jail or court (if you choose to).

All these analysis really take us nowhere.

In the end living as a minority anywhere means accepting compromises and living a visible minority even more caution is required. The best way is to develop India so Indians can get all the modernity and material goods within their borders. That requires organization and discipline on part of Indian state which havent been on display at all. tragic.

[Rudradev]

KiranA'ji - how many white hispanics have you seen? Yes they do blend in and escape discrimination. But the point is that the NJ dot-buster gang was multicolored but it were the hispanics who did the killing.

No, it is that the NJ Dotbuster gang was multicoloured... in fact, overwhelmingly White... but only its Hispanic members were *charged* with the killing of Nawroze Mody. The white ones were never charged with anything more serious than insurance fraud or "criminal mischief".

As is typical for America under Republican Administrations... the White members of Dotbusters got away with murder, and its few Hispanics took the rap.

By the way, how many White Hispanics have YOU seen? When you saw them, how did you automatically know they were Hispanic and not any other kind of White? Through some sort of "RW" spidey-sense, perhaps?

[kiranA]

Are people here saying that economically well off Indians are victims of already marginalized, generally poor brown hispanics ? what good will come of that ? A demand to marginalize them further ?

Sir., you need to really know your hispanics. But before you do., can you please be less racist and stop this broad brush of "economically well off Indians are victims of already marginalized, generally poor brown hispanics"?

Not all hispanics are poor brown and marginalized. And neither all Indians who are victims are well-off. Cited two URLs., it is upto you to read it.

If hispanics are not brown then they are white. Then what is hispanic racism - a language racism ? sheeesh

[disha]

For posters who rhetorically ask why desis whine about economically well off Indians victims of already marginalized generally poor brown hispanics., please read this in full http://filmiholic.com/in-memory-of-navroze-mody/

[disha]

KiranA'ji - you do not have to quote my entire post to post a one-liner. It really scares me., when I see a large post with my post cited expecting a scholarly work for which I have to mentally prepare and out comes a single generally useless one-liner which just twists statements around.

Now when I do to other posts., I usually decorate the core, and put in my affirmation and tag it for good posts thread. So yes there is a difference.

[Rudradev]

In the hoo-ha over how great the liberals were before Trump came., here is a piece for people to read:

http://hudsonreporter.com/printer_friendly/2488227

A physician is beaten to coma & has severe impact on his long term and short term memory., his perpetuators walk free!

.

This was in 1987.During the Reagan administration... so what "great liberals" are you talking about?

Under Republican administrations, dead or permanently brain-damaged brown people are never enough of a reason to actually punish their White attackers.

Of course there were racial incidents, some of them targeting Indians, before Trump. Likewise, there were many deaths from cancer throughout Europe and Asia for centuries before tobacco smoking was imported from the New World.

That argument is like someone showing statistics of pre-cigarette cancer deaths in Europe and Asia, and using these figures to claim there is no link between tobacco smoking and cancer

[Rudradev]

For every tech engineer murdered by a white racist, there are scores if not hundreds of desi shopkeepers, taxi drivers, gas station operators and other small business owners/workers murdered by black and hispanic criminals over the years.

And that is why we shouldn't worry about terrorism in India, because regular criminals, political criminals, etc., kill so many more Indians than terrorists do. Heck, even drunk drivers kill more Indians than terrorists do. Yet BRF has thread after thread devoted to terrorism, I wonder why.

Hint: for some stupid reason, we tend to think that the motive/intent matters.

+1,000,008

[disha]

Rudradev'ji - my point is simple - before ppl do #Blow2Trump., just check out the past history.

[Gus]

Who Is making an argument that it was amazing great before and terrible and horrible now? The argument is that this sort of stuff might increase given the rhetoric, the dog whistles etc combined with the economic stagnation of a section which carries resentment - and the issues with law enforcement taking "inspiration" from folks like bannon etc. Why are you needlessly bringing liberal conservative talk..

[kiranA]

Who Is making an argument that it was amazing great before and terrible and horrible now? The argument is that this sort of stuff might increase given the rhetoric, the dog whistles etc combined with the economic stagnation of a section which carries resentment - and the issues with law enforcement taking "inspiration" from folks like bannon etc. Why are you needlessly bringing liberal conservative talk..

He clearly didnt like this discussion around the tragedy which brings to focus the topics of immigration, visas, white racism etc. he tried to kill it by bringing up some confusing rhetoric around "hispanic racism" against indians where hispanics are not (all) brown but their racism cannot be seen as white racism. It didnt pan out so fell back on the tried and tested label "trump bashers" against the posters.

[Cosmo_R]

@vIvS

There is only one explanation, and it's inescapable: the overwhelming racial antagonism and religio-cultural hatred of White Americans for brown Indians.
You don't think this is a gross generalization?

Of course it's a gross generalization. Ian Grillot is one very striking and obvious example. He need not have done this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ins ... 39411176f3

Compare this to
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37415843

or
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/editor ... en-2149486

I'm reflexively against generalizations (gross or otherwise). With one exception: Trump has emboldened and empowered those with any sort of grudge against xyz. These are the proto Unabomber types. Nothing you can do with this lot but you cannot make them representative of their race/ethnicity/religion.

The generalization is about Trump. He doesn't know it but he is a demagogue and he is opening the containment tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vxEimC3HME

Ivanka and Jared are horrified.

[ldev]

All those who chase the American Dream will be hypocrites if they do not admit that it were the white settlers who made the US into what it is today. Yes, the native Indians were decimated as a result. But would the US have been what it is today, arguably the strongest power in the world without those white settlers? IMO very frankly, the only people who deserve sympathy are the blacks because they were bought in against their wishes as slaves to the US. Everybody else, Indians, Chinese, Hispanics and the 100 + other nationalities who have immigrated to the US are economic migrants. And if the weather becomes a little to hot because of Trump you can always migrate to some other country. Ultimately you should be where you feel comfortable in your own skin.

But this is the Indo-US thread, I doubt whether issues such as these will have any impact on the growing relationship between the two countries.

[NRao]

Which "White"?

They beat up on the British.
They beat up on the French.
They beat up on the Spanish - all the way in the Philippines.

The guy who shot Srinivas actually was tossed out of the bar and he returned with a gun. I have no idea what I would have done any differently, than those two Indians, were I in that situation.

I have had cans and bottles thrown at me, but those were one-off - from passing vehicles. I have had Hispanics spit at my car, with my kids in it. I have had A Paki, at 2 AM, grab my parking spot. I have faced a French person at an airport that for some reason was irate with me. After 911 I had been pulled out of lines a few times, at the ticket counter, then again just prior to boarding a plane (it stopped once they were provided with some info).

On the flip side I have had really great experiences too. When I look back and think of "Srinivas", considering I am a "rural" guy, it is even more amazing.

[arshyam]

But this is the Indo-US thread, I doubt whether issues such as these will have any impact on the growing relationship between the two countries.

This is what our media is talking about, at least the paper I subscribe to. This article is on the front page today.

Wife of Indian shot dead in America asks 'Do we belong here?' - TNIE

HOUSTON: The wife of Indian engineer Srinivas Kuchibhotla, who was shot dead in an apparent hate crime by a Navy veteran at a bar in Olathe city, has said that she had her doubts about staying in the US but was assured by her husband that "good things happen in America".

Speaking at a news conference organised by GPS-maker Garmin where Srinivas worked, Sunayana Dumala said reports of bias in the US make minorities afraid as she questioned "do we belong here". She said she now wonders what the US government will do to stop hate crimes against minorities.

Dumala said she was concerned about shootings incidents in America and had doubted whether they should stay in the country, but her husband said that assured her saying that "good things happen in America." <snip>

[krishna_krishna]

[quote="ldev"]All those who chase the American Dream will be hypocrites if they do not admit that it were the white settlers who made the US into what it is today. Yes, the native Indians were decimated as a result. But would the US have been what it is today, arguably the strongest power in the world without those white settlers? IMO very frankly, the only people who deserve sympathy are the blacks because they were bought in against their wishes as slaves to the US. Everybody else, Indians, Chinese, Hispanics and the 100 + other nationalities who have immigrated to the US are economic migrants. And if the weather becomes a little to hot because of Trump you can always migrate to some other country. Ultimately you should be where you feel comfortable in your own skin.

But this is the Indo-US thread, I doubt whether issues such as these will have any impact on the growing relationship between the two countries.[/quote

Considering this as Bharat rakshak forum and not Massa's rakshak forum individualist view like above should also take into consideration what about citizens of land of milk and honey that do not belong to particular color who were born here and raised here, you intend to say that they take a hike because certain forefathers belong to different color they get more rights than you even though law of land promises equal rights ?, Hypocrisy at its best.

Views like that reminds me of gungadeen of this age and they deserved to be treated like such.

Venting apart I am appalled that certain members want to go into equal equal game of Hindus been killed by other colors as well hence it is OK or give pardon to death of innocent indic people whatever there nationality they be , their blood is precious( to me at least).

Rdevji, everyone who has lived in Massa's land should know that even in promised land not everyone is promised everything, Rest is Maya onlee.i want to know given that this was expected after elections one side open religion of peace lovers vs religion of love lovers, what should the solution be. I would love to know your thoughts, may be a jirga event

[arshyam]

Trump admin uvacha:

Absurd to correlate Kansas shooting and President Trump's remarks on immigrants: White House - PTI via TNIE

WASHINGTON: The Trump administration has dismissed as "absurd" any correlation between US President Donald Trump's controversial remarks on immigrants and the Kansas shooting incident that resulted in the death of an Indian engineer.

"Obviously, any loss of life is tragic, but I'm not going to get into, like, to suggest that there's any correlation I think is a bit absurd. So I'm not going to go any further than that," White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer, told reporters.

Spicer was responding to a question on the shooting incident in Kansas on Wednesday night in which 32-year-old Indian engineer Srinivas Kuchibhotla was killed and another Indian man and an American were injured after an American Navy veteran yelling "get out of my country" and "terrorist" opened fire on them at a bar in an apparent racially motivated hate crime.

"What the President's response to it was, but also if there's any concern that some of the rhetoric that the President or -- that generally has been out here recently could have contributed in any way to that or stepped up violence?" he was asked.

Meanwhile, the Indian Embassy in the US has issued a demarche to the State Department on the killing of an Indian engineer and called for a speedier investigation. The Indian Embassy also asked that it be kept informed on the investigation.

"Government of India has taken up the matter with the US authorities to express our deep concern and have asked for speedy investigation. The US government while condemning the attack, have assured us that they are conducting a thorough investigation into the matter," Indian Embassy spokesman Pratik Mathur said in a separate statement earlier in the day.

The Indian Consulate in Houston is also in close contact with the family of the deceased. "In their hour of grief, we are providing all help and assistance to the bereaved family. Arrangements are being made to transport his mortal remains to India," he said.

"Government officials have also met with the injured victim- Alok Madasani and are ensuring his well-being," Mathur said in his statement.

The shooting incident comes at a time when hate crimes and acts of bigotry have risen notably in America after President Donald Trump came to power. Trump had previously issued an executive order to suspend the arrival of all refugees for at least 120 days, Syrian refugees indefinitely, and barring citizens from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen for 90 days.

I for one won't be waiting for this guy to be sent to jail, especially after what happened to the guy who assaulted Sureshbhai Patel's. At a minimum though, GoI should issue a travel advisory FWIW, though it won't stop the number of Indians wanting to visit. But enough is enough. Let's see what comes of this so-called "strategeric paartnersheep"...

[Singha]

combating human trafficing/child slavery is usually a front for EJ agenda in the Indo-US context. I wonder if his agenda is inward or on rescuing 3rd world nations? hopefully inward

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump says he will bring the "full force and weight" of the U.S. government to combat an "epidemic" of human trafficking.

The president is meeting at the White House with senior advisers and representatives of organizations that deal with trafficking. His daughter, Ivanka Trump, is among those in attendance.

Trump calls human trafficking a problem that is "not talked about enough." He says he will order the departments of Justice and Homeland Security to take a hard look at the resources they are devoting to addressing the issue.

[krishna_krishna]

"Meanwhile, the Indian Embassy in the US has issued a demarche to the State Department on the killing of an Indian engineer and called for a speedier investigation. The Indian Embassy also asked that it be kept informed on the investigation"

+1GOi showing some spine, it should send travel advisory that it's citizens take extra caution while visiting and postpone unnecessary travel in coming summer months, avoid , bars , restaurants and tourist places especially at night . Raise a statement that we are concerned about safety of our citizens and expect purpators of this henious crime be punished severely.Hi!An rights violations would be closely monitored by our external affairs ministry

[krishna_krishna]

Which "White"?

They beat up on the British.
They beat up on the French.
They beat up on the Spanish - all the way in the Philippines.

The guy who shot Srinivas actually was tossed out of the bar and he returned with a gun. I have no idea what I would have done any differently, than those two Indians, were I in that situation.

I have had cans and bottles thrown at me, but those were one-off - from passing vehicles. I have had Hispanics spit at my car, with my kids in it. I have had A Paki, at 2 AM, grab my parking spot. I have faced a French person at an airport that for some reason was irate with me. After 911 I had been pulled out of lines a few times, at the ticket counter, then again just prior to boarding a plane (it stopped once they were provided with some info).

On the flip side I have had really great experiences too. When I look back and think of "Srinivas", considering I am a "rural" guy, it is even more amazing.

You are used to being a punching bag and may be even liking\ not minding does not mean others feel about it the same way. You can choose to be ostrich but realty does not change by digging your head in ground.

The Massa's relationship with desh is Hobart gas Hawaii onlee. This should be balanced via equal business transactions onlee, how about f solah not included in fighter race for starters

[vijayk]

Hopefully there will be course correction in US Congress/Senate in 218. Until then, this country will be on fire. Not just election, even after the election this man kept on stoking fiires.

[Singha]

"I used to think of America as a place where there is greater racial equality than exists in India," said Dhriti Ahluwalia, 26, a master's student who wants to attend a public policy program in the United States. "Now people are afraid. There is inequality. There is racism."

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/everyone ... topstories