India-US relations: News and Discussions III

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Feb 2017 04:57

Thanks u mean - seldom

listened-to and ALWAYS wise.

Been there, done that, birather.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 27 Feb 2017 05:32

krishna_krishna wrote:
Primusji, I neither say you leave nor I am in position to say so.

I understand the angst, I was only trying to see if you had any suggestions because this is not a simple issue. It comes up every few years and there isno easy solution.

krishna_krishna wrote: The question you ask is what we should be discussing ,the solution lies in around you look at Israelis they protect their own never discriminate based on passports every drop of their keen is dear to them. They make sure they prosper and always try to increase their numbers viaimmigration or otherwise.they just had treaty visa signedwhich means they have their own reservations without fuss for talent or whatever all you need to show is just 200k in bank. Protect your own (never let go any crimes on your community events swept as just unfortunate individual events), teach you kids to do the same,have them reach positions of power but do not become another brown sepoys and just accept the truth that there is discrimation done very methodological way against Hindus.that is all I am trying to point out. Look at South Africa even though there is majority how clolored people are treated vs someone just come via plane from bartania, you have to see to believe. Again if you think changing numbers the equation will change I disagree.

May I respectfully suggest a little attention to your punctuation and spacing, it is a bit difficult to understand exactly what you are saying.

If I understand you correctly, we should learn from the Jews. Well, I have said this for many years already. Have been on this board since the late 90's. I live and work in a heavily Jewish dominated part of the country and my business partners are majority of them Jews including my main partner who is actually an orthodox (observant) Jew. So I know a fair deal about their world and how they manage to control everything in New York.

I will try to point out why and how they can and we cannot:

1. Jews are phenotypically white and unless they wear the obvious yarmulke or Hasidic garb cannot be separated from the WASPS. Indians are brown from a mile away even if we are not Hindus and have anglo names. Even the Sephardic Jews are almost white - or Persian/Greek in appearance.

2. They often have completely anglo-saxon names like Fred Miller, Phil Grant, David Horn, Michael Smith (all real people I have known) and this makes it very easy for them to hide their religion and blend in if they choose to.

3. They will stand together against anything that threatens the Jewish ethos, culture, faith, homeland (Israel) and way of life.

4. They contribute massively to Jewish causes - my partner gives 10% of his annual income. In return they are protected by their own societies, given jobs and shelter/food when they are out on their luck.

5. They are the ultimate partisans. They know who their own people are even if the names are anglo and everybody else is fooled. They will support and promote their own in elections and in jobs so that the head of the department/division is their own who in turn again appoints or favors his own kind. In the end you have a large number of people of the same faith and culture in all the important positions of power - in academia, finance, media and law. The only two places where they do not congregate in large numbers is the military and the police because they control these two through civic bodies. If you can be the mayor, no need to be the chief of police.

6. Ironically, if anybody ever suggests the Jewish domination of the way of life in the US, esp the northeast, they will come down hard on the very idea and hound the speaker until he is silenced.

Indians OTOH are almost the opposite in every way, hence we are where we are.

As for your last point about South Africa, no need to go that far - just see what happens at Delhi airport. 'Rassi jal gayi, par bal nahin gaye'

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Feb 2017 05:35

svinayak wrote:Foreigners dont have rights inside India.

Yes they do. All protections enumerated under Art 14, Art 20 & Art 21 of the Constitution apply to aliens/non-citizens.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 27 Feb 2017 05:44

UlanBatori wrote:Ultimately, this is a hate crime. Not the first in the US or anywhere else in the world, and sadly, won't be the last. I fully support the idea of using it to highlight the occurrence and cause some P-I-T-A to the US Embassy, USCIRF, etc etc. But let's not lose perspective beyond that.

One sore need in the US (and elsewhere) is for desis to BAND TOGETHER and convey some educational experiences to these types, modelled on what the Morris Dees establishment in Alabama has achieved, and what the ADL has achieved. The message has gone out loud and clear on those: Biss on us, lose ur knickers. No mercy. This is done completely through the Constitution and legal means. It takes really smart lawyers. More, it takes community support.

How many warriors here have even heard that parents in California have been forced to sue the Board of Education AGAIN, because 10 years after the 2006 scam, those sh1ts pulled the same hate stunts? Has anyone opened their wallets to help those parents? Spent their time going around making presentations at the Mandirs etc to drum up awareness (talk about dimly-aware ppl!!!) and a few dollars?

How many have heard about the people in Forsyth County, GA, until recently the seat of the KKK, who have had to go to court because they were denied permission to build a house of worship by racist bigots?

Why has a massive punitive damages lawsuit not been slapped on the Alabama county where the granddad was slammed to the ground, whether or not the policegoon went free? How about a boycott against the county?

Where was the outrage when the freshman kid in Rutgers U, having exhausted other means of exposing the fact that the FRESHMAN DORM was being used as a homosexual brothel with 30-year-olds visiting dorm rooms to bugger freshmen, posted proof on the Internet? The kid was tortured and destroyed - why was the University not sued with a demand to close it down, or pay $100M in damages?

Where was the outrage when a Harvard-bound kid in New Jersey (NJ is probably worse than Mississippi and Texas combined in terms of violent racism) was badly hurt in school by the racist administrators? Why was that school not sued for a $100M?

Back in the 2000s we tried our best to actually DO something to help raise awareness and turn the tide of pakiness that was then threatening to slam India - US bombers over India were a distinct possibility then, and not for Military Joint Exercises either. Some of us are tired. The New Gen here at BRF seems to be indistinguishable from that on, say, REDIFF. GOOD thing we don't have to fight the Pakis any more. Sorry to have to say this.

UB Ji, for once a post without the usual sarcasm, very refreshing and heartwarming because it is the truth and it hurts.

Indians are by nature lazy when it comes to organizing and banding together, we are diverse, we celebrate our diversity, revel in it and ultimately pay a price for it.

In my post on Jews above, the biggest reason they control the narrative is that anything against them, any suggestion of anti-semitism is met with massive lawsuits. They have no army of goons or street gangs who would go and make trouble. They do have an army of smart lawyers and very deep pockets. That is what is needed. A strong, united organization, well funded and capable of hitting back any anti-Hindu ideology or act so hard that the message goes out - don't mess with us. The only language people understand is that of money, if it hits their pocket books it really hurts. Wendy Donigers and Purintons are all the same - bullies - and there is only one way to deal with them.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Feb 2017 05:47

UlanBatori wrote:Thanks u mean - seldom listened-to and ALWAYS wise.

Been there, done that, birather.

I meant more like a split personality actually

Must be genetic...Like the way the Mongol conquerors massively thwacked Islam and almost destroyed the religion and at the same time converted to Islam in large numbers

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 27 Feb 2017 05:55

LokeshC wrote:The cop verdict is expected. It is extremely rare for cops to be in any kind of trouble for using force of any form and intensity while a badge is on. Especially if the skin color of the person whom the force was used on is a convenient one.

They have even gotten away with killing white teenage kids from middle class families.

The only way is to sue the city/county for $100M in a civil suit, that will keep everyone in line. All the famous incidents involving police officers and people of color ended up in civil suits - NYC paid out over $200M in payments in 2015 in various cases. Even if a case is not termed a hate crime, there are still ways to sue the perpetrator and the organizations that support him.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Feb 2017 05:57

SwamyG wrote:Viv, I live in US; and Indians can be racist too. But the Indian racist at least in America is hardly of the virulent variety. He is more of a variety mumbling or bad mouthing in get-togethers. Largely harmless; more looking down upon other races & laughing at them. What happens in desh could be different.

Only commenting on race issues here in India, but I'd expect Indian-Americans (particularly 2nd & 3rd gen) with higher levels of education attainment and social exposure to be considerably more tolerant.

Here in the capital, racism particularly against North-Easterners is pretty rampant.

Though even in general, anywhere you have darker skin you tend to be lower down the totem-pole. Far from an American phenomena, just take a look at any matrimonial ad page.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Feb 2017 06:43

On the whole brown vs white issue....

Middle Easterners are by definition white (I'm serious....there is a definition of white by The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in the US. which says whites include all "original peoples of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East").

Somebody needs to get it into the thick skulls of Americans that by this definition and by reality, about half of Muslims are white (the remaining would be brown ex-Indics and blacks).

A brown person in the US is most likely to be an Indian (90% of whom are non-Muslim) or a Hispanic, and one can usually make out the difference in features between the two.

LokeshC · Post by **LokeshC** » 27 Feb 2017 06:53

Primus wrote:
UlanBatori wrote: ......
How many warriors here have even heard that parents in California have been forced to sue the Board of Education AGAIN, because 10 years after the 2006 scam, those sh1ts pulled the same hate stunts? Has anyone opened their wallets to help those parents? Spent their time going around making presentations at the Mandirs etc to drum up awareness (talk about dimly-aware ppl!!!) and a few dollars?

How many have heard about the people in Forsyth County, GA, until recently the seat of the KKK, who have had to go to court because they were denied permission to build a house of worship by racist bigots?
..............

Sorry to have to say this.
UB Ji, for once a post without the usual sarcasm, very refreshing and heartwarming because it is the truth and it hurts.

Indians are by nature lazy when it comes to organizing and banding together, we are diverse, we celebrate our diversity, revel in it and ultimately pay a price for it.

In my post on Jews above, the biggest reason they control the narrative is that anything against them, any suggestion of anti-semitism is met with massive lawsuits. They have no army of goons or street gangs who would go and make trouble. They do have an army of smart lawyers and very deep pockets. That is what is needed. A strong, united organization, well funded and capable of hitting back any anti-Hindu ideology or act so hard that the message goes out - don't mess with us. The only language people understand is that of money, if it hits their pocket books it really hurts. Wendy Donigers and Purintons are all the same - bullies - and there is only one way to deal with them.

Primusji,

I think you have mentioned something similar before so apologies if I am repeating here.

The fundamental issue would be a little OT here, but let me go ahead and state what I think is the elephant in the room:

The glue that unites us, the very reason why we find common-ness between a Tamil person and a Jammu person is Sanatana Dharma. This is common knowledge here I think.

To my dad's generation (my dad is still a communist leaning type): Hinduism is a dirty word. It has everything to do with everything bad that happened to India. Including being technologically backward. There is absolutely no idea of History, nor an interest in it among him or his friends (this is anecdotal, but I think it holds since I know many in that generation to hold the same views).

Who or what planted such poisonous ideas in our minds (and still do) is a different question. But once that idea takes hold and embeds itself deep in someones mind, there will be a refusal to accept that identity. The side effect of that being the same as ignoring issues that are common to the said identity.

So given the above two facts, people will fallback to the next available identity that can adopt (which by the way were amplified by the Britshits): Caste (un-natural) and Linguistic unity (natural). The caste one is wearing off slowly, but the linguistic one is quite natural and is here to stay.

Bottom line of the ramble: Unless all of us accept we are Hindus, and being Hindu is not a "dirty thing" or Hinduism a "dirty word", there is never going to be unity. As commoooonal as it may seem.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 27 Feb 2017 06:56

LokeshC wrote:
Primus wrote:
UB Ji, for once a post without the usual sarcasm, very refreshing and heartwarming because it is the truth and it hurts.

Indians are by nature lazy when it comes to organizing and banding together, we are diverse, we celebrate our diversity, revel in it and ultimately pay a price for it.

In my post on Jews above, the biggest reason they control the narrative is that anything against them, any suggestion of anti-semitism is met with massive lawsuits. They have no army of goons or street gangs who would go and make trouble. They do have an army of smart lawyers and very deep pockets. That is what is needed. A strong, united organization, well funded and capable of hitting back any anti-Hindu ideology or act so hard that the message goes out - don't mess with us. The only language people understand is that of money, if it hits their pocket books it really hurts. Wendy Donigers and Purintons are all the same - bullies - and there is only one way to deal with them.
Primusji,

I think you have mentioned something similar before so apologies if I am repeating here.

The fundamental issue would be a little OT here, but let me go ahead and state what I think is the elephant in the room:

The glue that unites us, the very reason why we find common-ness between a Tamil person and a Jammu person is Sanatana Dharma. This is common knowledge here I think.

To my dad's generation (my dad is still a communist leaning type): Hinduism is a dirty word. It has everything to do with everything bad that happened to India. Including being technologically backward. There is absolutely no idea of History, nor an interest in it among him or his friends (this is anecdotal, but I think it holds since I know many in that generation to hold the same views).

Who or what planted such poisonous ideas in our minds (and still do) is a different question. But once that idea takes hold and embeds itself deep in someones mind, there will be a refusal to accept that identity. The side effect of that being the same as ignoring issues that are common to the said identity.

So given the above two facts, people will fallback to the next available identity that can adopt (which by the way were amplified by the Britshits): Caste (un-natural) and Linguistic unity (natural). The caste one is wearing off slowly, but the linguistic one is quite natural and is here to stay.

Bottom line of the ramble: Unless all of us accept we are Hindus, and being Hindu is not a "dirty thing" or Hinduism a "dirty word", there is never going to be unity. As commoooonal as it may seem.

+1

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 27 Feb 2017 06:58

A person should have the right to express his or her choices. It does not matter if somebody wants a lighter skin shade husband or wife.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Feb 2017 07:03

Viv S wrote:
svinayak wrote:Foreigners dont have rights inside India.
Yes they do. All protections enumerated under Art 14, Art 20 & Art 21 of the Constitution apply to aliens/non-citizens.

Foreigners dont have rights to cause problems such as anti-govt acts, material damage and social tensions

Such people in Kashmir are called as terrorists

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Feb 2017 07:18

BTW, speaking of India-US relashuns, did the TSA allow Dur-ka-Butt in? Or give "Extreme Vetting"?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Feb 2017 07:23

LokeshC wrote:
To my dad's generation (my dad is still a communist leaning type): Hinduism is a dirty word. It has everything to do with everything bad that happened to India. Including being technologically backward. There is absolutely no idea of History, nor an interest in it among him or his friends (this is anecdotal, but I think it holds since I know many in that generation to hold the same views).

Have similar view in my family in that age group. Somebody who is a national level trade union leader.

Seculars used this generation and pushed for removing the culture from the nation and promoting durbar culture

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Feb 2017 08:12

Yesterday some we the people kangaroo court was going on in ndtv. I dont have ndtv but was sitting in neighbours house. Darkha has been replaced by a tall muscular crossfit type woman who is way more aggressive. ..she would get up a literally approach the seated panel as if to physically beat them up and shout her agenda. Pretty intimidating.

The audience was 101% sikular du jnu jholawallie ladies who cheered each such attack

Yuck

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2017 08:41

Primus and UB, We need to study Steve Bannon message at CPAC.

He has managed to takeover the Republican National Party right after Inauguration.
By 2018 Republican old Guard will be ousted.

All this will have fallout.

Nikhil D on Twitter has analyzed Bannon. A first.

https://twitter.com/Nikhil_7D/status/832265180083937280

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Feb 2017 09:10

Please watch Trump speach in CPAC

Trump says US got the first President in years. By his election they have defied the global elites and rules set by outsiders

Few news reports on FOX show people saying that they dont want to be told what to do by Britishers .
This is really the break of America from the western/British world. This is the break of the west we are seeing in our own eyes.

Brexit is another event which will impact for decades.

President Trump: Replace The Dollar With Gold As The Global Currency To Make America Great Again

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 27 Feb 2017 09:56

ramana wrote:Primus and UB, We need to study Steve Bannon message at CPAC.

He has managed to takeover the Republican National Party right after Inauguration.
By 2018 Republican old Guard will be ousted.

All this will have fallout.

Nikhil D on Twitter has analyzed Bannon. A first.

https://twitter.com/Nikhil_7D/status/832265180083937280

Ramana Garu, here is another version of Bannon, as per Caldwell of the New York Times, claims he draws his inspiration from the concept of Dharma in the Bhagvad Gita. Also mentions views on Ayn Rand's Objectivism as does Nikhil.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/opin ... ef=opinion

We do live in interesting times.

habal · Post by **habal** » 27 Feb 2017 10:03

Viv S wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Viv, I live in US; and Indians can be racist too. But the Indian racist at least in America is hardly of the virulent variety. He is more of a variety mumbling or bad mouthing in get-togethers. Largely harmless; more looking down upon other races & laughing at them. What happens in desh could be different.
Only commenting on race issues here in India, but I'd expect Indian-Americans (particularly 2nd & 3rd gen) with higher levels of education attainment and social exposure to be considerably more tolerant.

Here in the capital, racism particularly against North-Easterners is pretty rampant.

Actually, Indians who return from US are highly religion chauvinistic, much more so than the most virulent chauvinist in India. Then they also drum up financial support for increasing religious hatred in India, and that makes them highly dangerous. That Modi feels at home amidst of these people reveals a bit about their commonalities and mutual compatibility. It is as khatarnaak as Islam imported from Saudi Arabia as far as India is concerned, or EJ imported from USA. Whoever goes to America from India brings back some kind of extremism. Either extreme addiction to material comforts or extreme religiois chauvinism.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Feb 2017 10:03

"A new order is forming" Steve Bannon VERY RARE public speech

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Feb 2017 10:08

his fairly pallid aged beyond real years face makes him look like darth sidious somehow...

a new galactic order is indeed forming..one that shall end all the internecine wars and unite all federations under one strong supreme Leader

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Feb 2017 10:09

"Darkness is good," Bannon told the publication.

He added: "Dick Cheney, Darth Vader, Satan. That's power. It only helps us when they get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing."

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Feb 2017 12:28

He missed out Sauron and V.D.Mort!

Trump establishment is too engaged with countering "fake news",denying the "Kremlin Konnexion" and bringing the Jobs home.India will have to wait in a long Q before thereis "light at the end of the tunnel",and guys,that light may be that of "El Loco" hurtling towards us!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Feb 2017 12:59

habal wrote:

Actually, Indians who return from US are highly religion chauvinistic, much more so than the most virulent chauvinist in India. Then they also drum up financial support for increasing religious hatred in India, and that makes them highly dangerous. That Modi feels at home amidst of these people reveals a bit about their commonalities and mutual compatibility. It is as khatarnaak as Islam imported from Saudi Arabia as far as India is concerned, or EJ imported from USA. Whoever goes to America from India brings back some kind of extremism. Either extreme addiction to material comforts or extreme religiois chauvinism.

This is only few people. The real change is that the global media is now ignoring India and Indian civilization
This is about -ve news about India and fake news about India worldwide

Most NRI can see this and it has been going on since 2000

The culprit is the Pak and China nexus which has used money power to buy the news coverage away from other countries.
This is about business and news is also business.

Arnab Goswami - knows this and he has started a global news channel to promote India
India global position, Indian politics with positive coverage and Indian culture must be covered world wide

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Feb 2017 13:25

But he did not yet start anything. He wants to and finding funding is problematic.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Feb 2017 14:21

Primus wrote:
ramana wrote:Primus and UB, We need to study Steve Bannon message at CPAC.

He has managed to takeover the Republican National Party right after Inauguration.
By 2018 Republican old Guard will be ousted.

All this will have fallout.

Nikhil D on Twitter has analyzed Bannon. A first.

https://twitter.com/Nikhil_7D/status/832265180083937280
Ramana Garu, here is another version of Bannon, as per Caldwell of the New York Times, claims he draws his inspiration from the concept of Dharma in the Bhagvad Gita. Also mentions views on Ayn Rand's Objectivism as does Nikhil.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/opin ... ef=opinion

We do live in interesting times.

This Is How Steve Bannon Sees The Entire World

A discussion beamed to a corner of the Vatican (which has its own political eco system).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Feb 2017 16:46

rt.com

The American film director Oliver Stone, when receiving an award recently, said that “in the 13 wars we’ve started over the last 30 years and the $14 trillion we’ve spent, and the hundreds of thousands of lives that have perished from this earth, remember that it wasn’t one leader, but a system, both Republican and Democrat.”

Niraj Srivastava, the former ambassador of India, writing in 21stcenturywire.com, quotes Stone to compound the point that it will also be the system which takes him down.

Srivastava argues that the ‘deep state’ in America is pleased that relations between the US and Russia have soured, and that it is planning to remove Trump from office.

He says that his ‘safe zones’ plan in Syria and the return of Crimea by Russia to Ukraine are entirely beyond negotiation. “These demands will only increase the friction between the two countries, which is what the neocons want – an adversary in whose name the US/NATO war machine can continue to work,” Srivastava writes.

“Otherwise, what would be the justification for the continued existence of NATO?”

If Trump himself realizes this, then his speed makes sense. The waiting game is not so much what will Trump’s move be in Syria with Russia, or when he will bomb Iran. Or whether his plan for US soldiers to fight in Syria is plausible. It is whether he will really have the time before the media, the deep state, and the republicans will lunge at him, like Caesar in the Senate.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 27 Feb 2017 17:22

Primus wrote:
I will try to point out why and how they can and we cannot:

1. Jews are phenotypically white and unless they wear the obvious yarmulke or Hasidic garb cannot be separated from the WASPS. Indians are brown from a mile away even if we are not Hindus and have anglo names. Even the Sephardic Jews are almost white - or Persian/Greek in appearance.

2. They often have completely anglo-saxon names like Fred Miller, Phil Grant, David Horn, Michael Smith (all real people I have known) and this makes it very easy for them to hide their religion and blend in if they choose to.

3. They will stand together against anything that threatens the Jewish ethos, culture, faith, homeland (Israel) and way of life.

4. They contribute massively to Jewish causes - my partner gives 10% of his annual income. In return they are protected by their own societies, given jobs and shelter/food when they are out on their luck.

5. They are the ultimate partisans. They know who their own people are even if the names are anglo and everybody else is fooled. They will support and promote their own in elections and in jobs so that the head of the department/division is their own who in turn again appoints or favors his own kind. In the end you have a large number of people of the same faith and culture in all the important positions of power - in academia, finance, media and law. The only two places where they do not congregate in large numbers is the military and the police because they control these two through civic bodies. If you can be the mayor, no need to be the chief of police.

6. Ironically, if anybody ever suggests the Jewish domination of the way of life in the US, esp the northeast, they will come down hard on the very idea and hound the speaker until he is silenced.

I see the same thing in India especially in south, where you have very hindu sounding name but actually they are Christians for ex: YSR etc.
In earlier days, In hindi movie world you had dilip kumar etc.

Net result they end up in influential position over a period of time and Lo! Behold! you are out!

Before independence, the caste and religion was more important and hence attached to the name. So, Christians or muslims showed it in their name. After independence, all the new borns were given Hindu names. Clear demonstration of the insecurity of the minority.

I guess, after genocide jews have the same insecurity and hence they do the same thing. Hindus don't have it yet.. wait until they become a minority, feel threatened! Recent techie shooting in US is going to cause a rethink.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 27 Feb 2017 17:44

NRao wrote:
Primus wrote:
Ramana Garu, here is another version of Bannon, as per Caldwell of the New York Times, claims he draws his inspiration from the concept of Dharma in the Bhagvad Gita. Also mentions views on Ayn Rand's Objectivism as does Nikhil.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/opin ... ef=opinion

We do live in interesting times.
This Is How Steve Bannon Sees The Entire World

A discussion beamed to a corner of the Vatican (which has its own political eco system).

NPR played this and had a discussion on it over a month ago IIRC. Nothing new from the Trump corner.

Personally I think polarization is increasing everywhere in the world. I am seeing it in a microcosm too, a good friend and his wife are having a very strained relationship as they voted for opposite sides in the election. He is unapologetic in his support for Trump and meanwhile his wife is having to hide that fact from all her friends and is very distraught.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Feb 2017 18:16

Varoon Shekhar wrote:The US is full of ignorant gun toting yahoos. In India, violence is almost always domestic or politically oriented. Which is bad too, of course, but you don't see Indian equivalents of Adam Purinton, thank goodness. Can you see an Indian in Mumbai or Delhi, drunk and accosting a Caucasian foreigner, with the line "Do you think you are better than me, you effing foreigner, get out of my country" And then a shooting occurs.

I don't think we can EVER compare attitudes across countries as long as the severity of the underlying problem remains vastly different. This is a mistake that is made all too often.

Percentage of immigrants in India (who are predominantly from Bangladesh) is officially less than 0.5% and even accounting for unofficial numbers is < 2% of Indian population. Percentage of immigrants from a different race (white, black, yellow) is negligibly small.

The US on the other hand has close to 15% of its population as immigrants (born in overseas country) - with the majority being from a different race (brown, yellow, black).

When India ever gets to that level of problem severity, then we can talk whether Indian culture does provide exceptionalism in attitudes to immigration.

Similarly, there is absolutely no point in comparing the attitude of host population towards Muslims in the US (<1% of the population) with that in India (more than 14%). The scale of the problem is totally different. I would bet that if the percentage of Muslims in the US had even been a little higher, say 3 - 4% - the degree of hostility in the US towards Muslims would be exponentially higher than in India today.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 27 Feb 2017 19:00

NATO needs to evolve to counter 1) Islamic terrorism and 2) China and 3) Ensure right of navigation and respect for soverignity. May be it should be called APITO (Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Ocean Treaty Organization).

There is nothing for neo-cons to worry about. The scope of APITO can be bigger than that of NATO which can keep the MIC humming along for decades as neither China nor Islamic terrorism show any sign of slowing down. On the other hand, it would be a stupid idea to continue opposing a declining power such as Russia while ignoring the dragon in the room.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 27 Feb 2017 19:21

Singha wrote: Darkha has been replaced by a tall muscular crossfit type woman who is way more aggressive. ..she would get up a literally approach the seated panel as if to physically beat them up and shout her agenda. Pretty intimidating.
Yuck

Are you referring to Sara Jacob? The one programme I saw her on, she was fairly balanced, raising the issue of the restrictions placed on filmmaker Vivek Agnihotri ( "Buddha in a traffic jam") and the guru Ram Dev by the JNU types, at least giving them recognition and/or a chance to explain themselves. Hmmm, I think Sara Jacob, being Christian or coming from than background, will be more conscious of the need to be balanced, if anything, than a Barkha Dutt.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 27 Feb 2017 19:28

Arjun wrote: The US on the other hand has close to 15% of its population as immigrants (born in overseas country) - with the majority being from a different race (brown, yellow, black).

When India ever gets to that level of problem severity, then we can talk whether Indian culture does provide exceptionalism in attitudes to immigration.

Similarly, there is absolutely no point in comparing the attitude of host population towards Muslims in the US (<1% of the population) with that in India (more than 14%). The scale of the problem is totally different. I would bet that if the percentage of Muslims in the US had even been a little higher, say 3 - 4% - the degree of hostility in the US towards Muslims would be exponentially higher than in India today.

^
You are definitely right on, with the last observation!

Also, I can only begin to imagine what would happen if there is an actual Islamic/Islamist separatist movement on US soil, a la Kashmir. Whoa....

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 27 Feb 2017 19:31

vinod wrote:
I see the same thing in India especially in south, where you have very hindu sounding name but actually they are Christians for ex: YSR etc.
In earlier days, In hindi movie world you had dilip kumar etc.

Net result they end up in influential position over a period of time and Lo! Behold! you are out!

Before independence, the caste and religion was more important and hence attached to the name. So, Christians or muslims showed it in their name. After independence, all the new borns were given Hindu names. Clear demonstration of the insecurity of the minority.

The most rabid EJ I have ever met in my life was a guy with a 100% Hindu name, lived on my floor in the hostel and started his sermons right in the bathroom the first thing in the morning when I met him. He managed to convert many poor mess-boys.

He was himself a convert and in my experience the biggest zealots are those who have drunk the Koolaid recently. "None so chaste as the reformed whore".

vinod wrote: I guess, after genocide jews have the same insecurity and hence they do the same thing. Hindus don't have it yet.. wait until they become a minority, feel threatened! Recent techie shooting in US is going to cause a rethink.

An old Jewish professor of mine used to say that the Jews actually became even more powerful after WWII, they were going down in numbers before that, due to marriage into other faiths and a general sense of complacency.

I do hope the Hindus do not have to face a holocaust of their own before they wake up.

On your last point, we cannot do much about our ethnicity even if we change our names, we still look Brown from a mile away. That is why the situation of the African American is so pathetic. He was forced to embrace the White man's name, religion, food, culture, customs and manners but could never take on the skin color (although Jacko tried). So he still remains marginalized and discriminated.

The only way forward for us is to become so powerful and important within India that nobody can come close. Outside India we need to develop the ability to punish people with massive lawsuits, so none will dare attack us.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Feb 2017 21:04

vinod wrote: Before independence, the caste and religion was more important and hence attached to the name. So, Christians or muslims showed it in their name. After independence, all the new borns were given Hindu names. Clear demonstration of the insecurity of the minority.

They are ready for Ghar Wapsi.
Ghar Wapsi should have been started from 1947 but the congress could not see the future.
India is a huge civilization and will bring back its soul.

I guess, after genocide jews have the same insecurity and hence they do the same thing. Hindus don't have it yet.. wait until they become a minority, feel threatened! Recent techie shooting in US is going to cause a rethink.

there is no need to run down Hindus.
Indians are small population in other countries in the west. This was the way they wanted it to control

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Feb 2017 21:05

it is being said that some of the new US cabinet are trying to form a balance against the bannon point of view and that the various institutions are pinning their hopes on them. apparently tillerson is also leaning towards them - and it is expected that mcmaster will also go that way...

the key test will now be to see if trump sticks with bannon or gets swayed to the new bloc

either way, india is nowhere on the top 10 agenda items... we can slow down on this thread

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Feb 2017 22:12

Lalmohan wrote:it is being said that some of the new US cabinet are trying to form a balance against the bannon point of view and that the various institutions are pinning their hopes on them. apparently tillerson is also leaning towards them - and it is expected that mcmaster will also go that way...

true. Not only did ALL of these cabinet members grow up in that env, they are surrounded by and meet only those types.

the key test will now be to see if trump sticks with bannon or gets swayed to the new bloc

The Bannon model is nothing new and if one were to watch very carefully it has been promoted in the UK, lost in Australia and I want to say Austria, is gaining traction in France AND is in some shape or form, even in India. All it says is that borders do matter: for jobs, culture, movement of people, ........ And, when Trump says EU should break up, that is what he means, that France is France and Germany is Germany, each an individual entities, with distinct features. Bannon (as far as I can see) is not imposing his "features" on others. On the contrary Trump has said that he feels the US should get out of the build-the-world model.

The Bannon model wins.

So, Tillerson will have to deal with Germany and then with France separately - not in an EU format. Nothing changes from a US PoV.

either way, india is nowhere on the top 10 agenda items... we can slow down on this thread

I would not say that, but it is not important. Jaishankar visits DC on Tuesday. I feel India is sitting very pretty (has said this for some time now). BUT, I am not convinced that Indians are even thinking of taking advantage of teh situation.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Feb 2017 22:23

the bannon model is not unidimensional... it comes with many other features

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2017 22:45

NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/us/p ... peech.html

Decoding Bannon Speech.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 27 Feb 2017 22:58

^
What is funny is that the liberal left is led by Jewish opinion. They feel slightly (or significantly) marginalized at the moment, being denied a feeding spot at the top of the table. Otherwise they are even more racist than the WASPs, at least the conservative ones are.