LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 28 Jun 2017 23:39

How long does the LCA take on the production line ?
iirc, 36 months was the figure for raffle and Solah too..

If that's the benchmark, Jan 18 - 36 months is Jan 21 ! For the first FOC mk1. This is assuming foc SoP is ready immediately post getting foc in Dec 17.

This doesn't look good.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jun 2017 00:17

1 year

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 29 Jun 2017 00:26

Indranil wrote:1 year

Could you post a link please? A start to finish of 12 months on the production line is rocket speed !

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Jun 2017 00:34

How long does the LCA take on the production line ?
iirc, 36 months was the figure for raffle and Solah too..

36 months is the time including lead time i.e. when suppliers are given orders for parts and long lead items are procured. Basically how long from order to delivery. The aircraft doesn't spend 36 months on the assembly line.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2017 05:22

nirav wrote:
Indranil wrote:1 year
Could you post a link please? A start to finish of 12 months on the production line is rocket speed !

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7263&p=2148463&hili ... t#p2148463

You have to understand that most of the so-called "production" doesn't happen at the final assembly line. Various assemblies and sub-assemblies, like entire wings, fuselage, fins, etc, are manufactured elsewhere by production partners and these are supplied as whole SKD/CKD kits that the final assembly line will integrate. After the initial setup time for all involved to get the first lot out, assembly lines would start churning out aircraft at regular and predictable intervals. In the next two years (by 2019), we will see this occurring with the LCA production.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jun 2017 06:05

srai: isn't that like F-Solah production in India?

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2017 20:17

nirav wrote:...
If that's the benchmark, Jan 18 - 36 months is Jan 21 ! For the first FOC mk1. This is assuming foc SoP is ready immediately post getting foc in Dec 17.

This doesn't look good.

IOC-2 and FOC airframe is the same. Most of the work that is being done on FOC is related to software. Some work is on internal hardware (related to integration of new weapons). That means production partners can continue to manufacture wings, fins, fuselage and other components. They can look at the order as for 40 units instead of 20+20.

Even when it comes to Mk1A, the airframe will be the same. Some internal rearrangement of LRUs are being done for better maintainability and removal of 200-300kg ballast. And radar is being replaced with an AESA one but the size/dimensions are more or less the same using same adapters. More software-related work. As a bonus, might have some additional weight reduction with optimized landing gears and other LRUs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jun 2017 06:18

srai, Does HAL get money allocated for these long lead items?
For e.g. the order for 40 a/c, what is the period of performance?
Three to four years?

The first year is mostly long lead raw material orders. Second year is slow buildup of the a/c and a few deliveries, third year will see most deliveries and fourth is tail off?
IOW HAL will be working on two to four contracts simultaneously?

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2017 06:31

^^^

For new orders, typical standard worldover is 36 months for first unit delivery. Another year or two to get the lines stabilized and achieve the desired production rate. Production run usually lasts for 5+ years following the initial delivers at 36-months. So altogether from start of orders to completion, at least 8-years or more would be typical.

In a country like India producing its own 4th gen fighter for the very first time, one can expect the process to take a bit longer as the whole aerospace production ecosystem needs to be built up. But once this is built up and running the GoI needs to sustain it for the long-run with timely fresh orders. Keep it running until a new model is ready and production can switch over.

In regards to LCA, production hasn't been that way off if we look at the timelines. IOC-2 was achieved on 20 Dec 2013. So 36 months from that would put it at 20 Dec 2016. Initial deliveries have occurred. We are 6-months into the stabilization and expansion phase. By 2018-19, we can expect regular and predictable deliveries.

srin · Post by **srin** » 30 Jun 2017 07:16

Btw, it isn't just the HAL that needs to invest upfront for the items. The entire vendor chain needs to. And these subsystem manufacturers, many of whom are not Tata or L&T style conglomerates, may not be able to scale up capacity - because this is capital investment - until they see steady cashflows.

The Govt needs to create a defence private equity fund to fund these ventures' capital costs for share of revenue and then get out once they can survive on their own.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2017 07:50

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Jun 2017 09:43

Rakesh wrote:Tejas likely to be armed with Derby
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-438514/

Bars is manufactured at HAL Hyderabad and thankfully the Russians shared the software (before they discovered they've run out of things to sell and started acting pricey on other stuff). The software shared allows India to mate Bars with Astra and Derby to replace dud R-77.

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 30 Jun 2017 10:25

^^ Good to know, sir. Thanks

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Jun 2017 10:29

I suspect we didnt get the radar codes but run our own software in the second mission computer to interface our weapons with Bars

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Jun 2017 11:38

The software shared allows India to mate Bars with Astra and Derby to replace dud R-77.

Saar, pls dont say that lest some members get up in Arms since Russian stuff can never be useless, only their foreign users can!

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2017 12:22

tsarkar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Tejas likely to be armed with Derby
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-438514/
Bars is manufactured at HAL Hyderabad and thankfully the Russians shared the software (before they discovered they've run out of things to sell and started acting pricey on other stuff). The software shared allows India to mate Bars with Astra and Derby to replace dud R-77.

In software parlance, what they have done is opened up API to their radar software for a defined set of customer features like new weapons integration. Radar code itself will be a black-box.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Jun 2017 14:41

^^
http://www.hal-india.com/TabbedContent. ... ey=Product
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/aircr ... ivale.html

We replaced the Russian Radar computer. What are they processing if not radar signals?

The interface to weapons & sensors like Litening, Griffin, Paveway, Astra & Derby is indeed via Mission Computer

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 30 Jun 2017 14:45

srai wrote:
tsarkar wrote: Bars is manufactured at HAL Hyderabad and thankfully the Russians shared the software (before they discovered they've run out of things to sell and started acting pricey on other stuff). The software shared allows India to mate Bars with Astra and Derby to replace dud R-77.
In software parlance, what they have done is opened up API to their radar software for a defined set of customer features like new weapons integration. Radar code itself will be a black-box.

Yep, that makes sense. Only giving specifications for API (that too a limited set, not complete API) should be sufficient for interfacing. Unless of coarse we have coughed up money to get RADAR code specifically. This API itself would have cost us millions minimum.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 30 Jun 2017 14:54

tsarkar wrote:^^
http://www.hal-india.com/TabbedContent. ... ey=Product
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/aircr ... ivale.html

We replaced the Russian Radar computer. What are they processing if not radar signals?

The interface to weapons & sensors like Litening, Griffin, Paveway, Astra & Derby is indeed via Mission Computer

We could have replaced HW without changing the SW itself, no?? Just reinstall the SW given by Ruskies on a DVD as a binary executable on new computer HW. Or does the avionics thingy work differently..?

vina · Post by **vina** » 30 Jun 2017 15:22

Karan M wrote:I suspect we didnt get the radar codes but run our own software in the second mission computer to interface our weapons with Bars

Exactly. Though the SU-30MKI will be Mil-STD-1553B "compatible", I doubt that this is the "only" avionics databus in the Su-30. The Russians have their own GOST standards for this sort of thing and their own weapons probably use that . There would be an "alternate " pathway via the 1553 bus , to all the avionics systems to integrate 3rd party weapons and sensors and stuff.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Jun 2017 15:30

OK, I checked, I was under the impression that Project Vetrivale replaced the Ts200 programmable signal processor but it hasn't.

The RC1 & 2 control the modes of the radar, viz Multi Target Track, Track While Scan, but not specific signal processing. RC also shares radar output data with A2A & A2G weapons via MC. Weapons interface is via Mission Computer. Same for Mirage 2000 upgrade.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Jun 2017 16:05

tsarkar wrote:^^
http://www.hal-india.com/TabbedContent. ... ey=Product
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/aircr ... ivale.html

We replaced the Russian Radar computer. What are they processing if not radar signals?

The interface to weapons & sensors like Litening, Griffin, Paveway, Astra & Derby is indeed via Mission Computer

Under Project Vetrivale, India developed the specific mission hardware with the associated software, to run the Russian radar data processing on the system. Signal processing remains Russian & the application algorithms/ software.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Jun 2017 19:52

From LCA-Tejas FB page

SP-6 had first flight today

30 Jun 2017..
On the final day of the first year of Sqn Formation day, HAL, LCA Production Group had the first flight of LCA SP-6 (LA-5006).
After the initial flights, SP-6 will be the fifth member of Flying Daggers..

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Jun 2017 20:15

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 Jun 2017 20:22

Before anyone asks sp5 comes from new production line I believe

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 30 Jun 2017 20:44

Happy to see the June deadline met! SP5 should be undertaking ground tests either now or soon.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2017 21:08

suryag wrote:Before anyone asks sp5 comes from new production line I believe

1 hr Ak Ashok:
What happened to sp5

56 mins Tejas - LCA:
SP5 will come out of the second assembly line shortly

The "second line" seems to be HAL initiative converting an old Kiran hanger to make room for three more LCA assemblies. That would mean 11 (8 + 3) assembly jigs. Additional 8 capacity has been approved--19/year total.

HAL sets up second Tejas production line

Published: Feb 2, 2017, 11:13 AM IST
...
Bengaluru: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has set up a second line for the series production of Tejas. The new line has come up at Aircraft Division in December 2016, with the facility now being equipped with full-fledged assembly jigs.

Currently Tejas SP-5 is being integrated here, while SP-4 already moved to the final stages of systems checking at the LCA Division. HAL has converted the erstwhile Kiran hangar to set up this additional production line.

The second line when fully operational can produce three aircraft per year.
...

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 30 Jun 2017 21:27

Are the yellow and gray parts of different construction? One composite and the other aluminum?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 30 Jun 2017 21:28

From a layman perspective, If we have two production lines, there should be significant stabilization in the production process/maturity, then would a third/fourth line be cheaper than getting new fighter?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 30 Jun 2017 22:18

sudeepj wrote:Are the yellow and gray parts of different construction? One composite and the other aluminum?

All Composite parts only. Almost 90-95% of visible skin is composites.

Is it only me or the finish indeed looks way better than the previous jets..??

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jun 2017 22:46

So srai, the Defence budget allocation for LCAs has to be seen. How much is allocated to the purchase every year? I would expect yearly allocation. This would feed the long lead items.
No company can afford to build on own rupee and get paid after delivery.

Great news on SP-6 and second line at HAL.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2017 22:54

ArjunPandit wrote:From a layman perspective, If we have two production lines, there should be significant stabilization in the production process/maturity, then would a third/fourth line be cheaper than getting new fighter?

I would think that is a true statement.

The "official" second-line (i.e. technically third line) of 8 LCA assembly capacity will cost $203 million.
Second Production Line For India's Home-grown LCA Tejas For $203 Million

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Jun 2017 22:57

JayS wrote: Is it only me or the finish indeed looks way better than the previous jets..??

It's the paint. Makes a whole lot of difference. Sample this.

SP6 has not been painted yet. It is currently coated in primer only, which is much more easier on my eye than the silly two-tone paint scheme.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Jun 2017 23:02

^^ The true test of Modi Govt & Make in India is the Tejas production decisions and investments it makes and implements now. Expanding Tejas production into a 3rd line would indeed be cheaper & less time consuming option than starting up the learning curve of another fighter.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Jul 2017 00:54

JTull wrote:

Whaaat a beauty!!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Jul 2017 01:08

No doubt!!! Btw is that the new radome ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2017 03:11

srai wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:From a layman perspective, If we have two production lines, there should be significant stabilization in the production process/maturity, then would a third/fourth line be cheaper than getting new fighter?
I would think that is a true statement.

The "official" second-line (i.e. technically third line) of 8 LCA assembly capacity will cost $203 million.
Second Production Line For India's Home-grown LCA Tejas For $203 Million

That's about 2.5 Guardian drones.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 01 Jul 2017 03:29

Is that a sarcasm ramana sir?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 01 Jul 2017 03:39

Whatever it is, it doesnt suit/fit your stature, your knowledge/wisdom in these matters is way more. Given that whatever I say it wont add value to the LCA discussion and considering you're mod, I wont say any further. Pardon me if i am misconstruing your joke/sarcasm/derisive comment. Nothing beyond on this from me, lest i be tagged as a troll

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2017 03:51

ArjunPandit wrote:Is that a sarcasm ramana sir?

No. It's easily affordable to start a third line.

I am on phone.