Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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SSridhar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:I think NaMo has decided to confront the Chinese at their own game.

All India has to do is resist and the gas gets taken out of the paper dragon.

The not backing down at Doklam, Dali Lama touring Arunachal Pradesh, the activation of Falun Gong all are synchronized.

Recall the Buddhist summit about two years ago at Gaya?
True. But, things along these lines should have been done a long time back when we came to know about the Chinese support to NE insurgencies, transfer of nukes & missiles, Chinese opposition to our joining the ASEAN etc. Apart from giving refuge to Dalai Lama and allowing him to setup a government-in-exile, and our response in Nathu La & Sumdorong Chu, we have not put any pressure, soft or hard, on China to show our resolve. It is pathetic that three decades later, a Modi has to appear on the scene to correct the skewed approach. That shows a lack of hoslistic approach to China. But, that is not surprising given the fact that we have largely been clueless about the Pakistanis too for over six decades.

In both cases, it was our inability to come to the conclusion that both China and Pakistan were totally inimical to us and no peace initiative from our side was going to change their attitude. The reasons may be different in their cases, but their conduct towards India is the same.

The political class and the MEA mandarins must read, re-read and internalize the awesome and most perspicacious letter Sardar Patel wrote to Nehru, which of course Nehru discarded.
Same with Jaishankar.
No need to talk at his level.

Whole MEA is inflected with Nehruvian virus.
Exactly.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Iyersan »

Guddu wrote:Alls quite on the Chinese front ?...looks like reality is hitting the Chinese. All the bravado seems to be gone (unless its the quiet before the storm !). The news below is interesting. Such meetings are typically called when war is a real possibility.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... a-4748235/

Government calls Opposition meet over stand-off with China
Sources confirmed that External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj has personally called some Opposition leaders, requesting them to attend the briefing on this issue. The meeting is likely to be organised at the residence of Home Minister Rajnath Singh

By: Express News Service | New Delhi | Published:July 13, 2017 7:34 am
India-China, NDA government, opposition, india-china stand off, govt-opposition meeting The current military stand-off with China has drawn public attention in the wake of provocative statements from the Chinese foreign office in the run-up to the G-20 summit last week.

GIVEN THE sensitive nature of the military stand-off with China in the Sikkim sector, the government has called a meeting of top Opposition leaders to sensitise them about the situation ahead of the monsoon session of Parliament that begins early next week.
Sources confirmed that External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj has personally called some Opposition leaders, requesting them to attend the briefing on this issue. The meeting is likely to be organised at the residence of Home Minister Rajnath Singh.
The current military stand-off with China has drawn public attention in the wake of provocative statements from the Chinese foreign office in the run-up to the G-20 summit last week.
India-China relations have been delicately balanced over a host of differences, including the boundary between the two countries. Given the sensitive nature of bilateral relations between the two countries, the government is keen to keep the opposition parties in the loop on this issue.
This meeting will also help the Opposition parties calibrate their statements in Parliament so as to avoid making remarks that may impinge adversely against the bilateral relations between the two countries.
True Generally Opposition leaders are brought in to get aligned before actual armed conflict. I expect that GOI knows that this wont go down without a short border war. Any opinions on this?
I don't think it will be because Clown prince met the ambassador or faggots like Mani Shankar Iyer might do something new
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Karthik S »

shiv ji, nice video, but did you consider disabling the comments? Seeing many chinese rabble rouse, talk nonsense about our economy etc and spread their propaganda.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

^^Thanks. But I have never disabled comments on any videos that I have made. They give me an insight into who is watching and what they think.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Conflict cannot take place suddenly. We will know about it long before. If China starts mobilizing - rail and road movements will be seen and reported to the media. Troop build-ups at the border will be met with Indian mobilization. This will take weeks or months. Once everything is in place a spark can set off conflict.

That will be the time to expect a diversionary terrorist attack in Kashmir or an Indian city, or riots provoked somewhere in India to divert security attention and political focus. That is how war will likely start.

Another possibility - but a less likely one would be a devastating Chinese shakinah attack which decimates Indian positions near Doklam "to teach a lesson". But this will lead to Indian retaliation and is much more likely to escalate into broader conflict.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by hshukla »

I think it's great opportunity to test our Thermo nukes... China openly threatening... Trump and Japan with North Korea focus...we should not lose such opportunities
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by TKiran »

There's one more way to manage Chinese propaganda.

The globaltimes is their propaganda tool and some journalists have been compromised by bribes. They are saying things that were taboo so far. For example, by manipulating the English edition, they are pretending as if those who are spitting venom on India are actually helping India by claiming sovereignty over parts of lands which were never under control of Hans during the entire history.

But the average Han is very good at seeing through the propaganda and self doubt the narration in the propaganda. The best way to stop this negative results of propaganda is not to discuss these issues at all. But because of some journalists comprised, they are giving positive spin to the propaganda and discussing the stories that were not allowed in the past.

We need to bribe them more and discuss these stories in Mandarin editions​ as well (even with a positive spin). Han will eventually understand the truth.

For example, no body in Han China knows about tiananmen square. We can ask the journalists​who are compromised, to discuss this in Mandarin edition like this "Indians claim that in 1989 the CPC and PLA killed more than 100000 Han students, but there's no evidence so far that even a single Han has been killed in entire china in 1989 except those that died due to natural causes, the Indians live in the world of dreams and think that they are democracy, they are not democracy, thousands of people in India die in the hands of military every day, and no news comes out."

Now the ordinary Chinese Han would get curious about the tiananmen square incident and some how get some news from some western source and understand that something really bad happened in tiananmen square in 1989.

The truth ultimately prevails even with positive spin on negative events.

Also we should make global times say "Indians think that they are equal to superior Hans, they are nowhere near to China in terms of economy or development.". Then the Hans will realize and their spines sweat that Indians are coming.

Hans have no idea that India is a competitor to them, they think Indians are Somalis, you should give them bread.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Philip »

I said it during the Kargil War,winning the propaganda War is just as important.Pak for decades fooled its own tribe that it "won" in '65 and again "won" in Kargil,which couldn't be swallowed thanks to the huge casualties that it suffered and the truth of the war came out despite Mushy-the-rat's attempts at BS.

China's outrageous claims are meant for two audiences.domestic and international.Domestic to whip up a fury against a "bogeyman" (US),"arrogant interloper" (India),etc.,diverting attention from domestic problems. Secondly ,to stake its false claim on the international map of disputes.Disputing territory all over the Asia-Pacific is China's brazen attempt to land grab,push further its boundaries and grasp unknown wealth that may be in the oceans (EEZ) and on land. It cares a hoot what Indians think of its claims,we are too "low-caste" for the racist Chinese to matter at all.How dare we serfs to the Middle Kingdom even speak to the great mandarins of Chin?

Only when faced with steel do the Chinese blink,withdraw,preferring not to suffer losses but bully another day. India has absolutely no alternative but to militarily challenge China wherever it squats or plans to squat in the IOR and Indo-China Sea. China sending its troops to Djibouti is what will happen at Gwadar and eventually POK. What can we do?

Diplomatically apply pressure upon nations that have succumbed to a point like Sri Lanka on H'Tota Port,etc. That the presence of Chinese mil forces in the island would be tantamount to an act of war against India with dreadful consequences for the island. WE too must offer considerable eco and mil support to SL,etc.,providing them with defence ware credit,etc.,as we're doing with Vietnam,plus get many of our corporate entities to invest in SL.An Indian EEZ based at Trinco,part of the Trinco OIil Tank Farm JV with the GOSLwould be an excellent way in which we could keep out the Chinese from ingressing any further.SL must be considered and treated as an (independent) de-facto part of India.,where any firang entity cannot plant its flag.

The standoff looks like it is going to last for a v.long time,perhaps another Siachen in the making.It gioves us extra time to prepare for the military worst. China has taken the gloves off and shown us its iron fist. There can be no excuse now for any leniency.One sees some typical duality in MEA utterances. The MEA is India's weakest link.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 267653.ece
Game of chicken in the high Himalayas
Zorawar Daulet Singh JULY 13, 2017
With no thaw in sight, much will now depend on wider geopolitical factors. But the costs of conflict are high

Another face-off at the Himalayan border has surprised few. Since 2010, nearly 2,500 Chinese “transgressions” have been recorded on the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the undefined border between India and China. But this is not a typical stand-off. The point, or area, of discord is unrelated to the India-China territorial dispute. The present stand-off is near the India-China-Bhutan tri-junction, and in an area where both China and Bhutan hold competing territorial claims.

The significance

According to the External Affairs Ministry’s June 30 press release, Indian involvement is aimed to prevent China from changing the status quo by building a road on territory claimed by Bhutan, India’s closest ally in the subcontinent. By upholding the rights of its ally, Indian actions are intended to convey the importance Delhi attaches to its special relationship with Thimphu as well as to signal that it intends to preserve its traditional military advantages in the overall Sikkim sector.

Beijing’s motivations have been speculated to range from big power bullying as part of a general pattern of China’s approach to its periphery, and driving a political wedge between India and Bhutan, to more mundane operational anxieties in a sector where India has traditionally held the higher ground. What makes the crisis particularly dangerous compared to previous episodes on the border is the absence of an agreed definition of what is at stake. For China, it is about “territorial sovereignty”; for India, it is about “security implications” emanating from a potentially deeper Chinese foothold in the lower Chumbi valley.

There are two broad schools of punditry. One argues that the unresolved Himalayan dispute, China’s sensitivity over Tibet and the ensuing security dilemma is the main cause of recurring friction; the other claims that wider geopolitics and threat perceptions have converted the frontier into an arena of competition to keep the other side off balance. Ideally, conflict management strategies should seek to address both these levels of the India-China dynamic. But with the level of mistrust and animosity at record highs, it seems improbable that either side is interested in reassurance gestures. The indivisibility of the object of discord — in this case China’s territorial claims and India’s conception of security in the Northeast — makes an exit ramp or de-escalation difficult. As it stands today, both sides have dug in their heels and signalled a commitment to their respective positions, the Chinese more explicitly and through a flurry of official pronouncements.

Breaking the stalemate

Where do we go from here? By interposing itself in close proximity to Chinese border guards, India has created a stalemate that can only be broken via one of three ways: one side backs off, either side tries to dislodge the other by force, or quiet diplomacy allows both sides to save face. The first scenario seems improbable given the crescendo of rhetoric surrounding the crisis. Rolling back the opponent’s position is also unviable because it would produce an escalation, whether in the local Sikkim theatre or along a wider front on the 3,488 km LAC. Some commentators have been thinking in highly tactical terms where India’s local military advantages are deemed to provide the ingredients of a compellence posture. However, unlike in the eight disputed pockets of the LAC where brinksmanship can be entertained, coercing the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in an area where Beijing is convinced of its sovereignty and India’s own territorial stakes are not even at play would almost certainly involve fierce reprisals in the form of vertical or horizontal escalation in military and other domains. So we are left with a prolonged stand-off with little prospect for a thaw. Much will now depend on wider geopolitical factors and how each side evaluates its relative position in the international environment.

The Chinese seem to exude more confidence on this front. Beijing’s relationships with its main rivals, the U.S. and Japan, seem to be stabilising. While Washington is a divided entity today, the relationship with China has robust bipartisan support with little traction for a new adversarial posture. Dense economic interdependence and a renewed awareness of security interdependence in northeast Asia imply that the Sino-American equation will maintain its complex stability. More broadly, American grand strategy remains focused on the Eurasian heartland threat from Russia rather than a rimland challenge from China. Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s bilateral encounter with Chinese President Xi Jinping at the G20 summit was also instructive. Mr. Abe is reported to have responded positively to China’s Belt and Road Initiative. Japanese officials noted that Mr. Abe held a “very friendly” meeting with Mr. Xi and Beijing had shown “goodwill from the top level” towards Japan.

The calculations

In sum, while China’s eastern front remains a zone of geopolitical competition, Chinese leverage in East Asia has reached a threshold where it can blunt a containment posture from the U.S.-Japan alliance. As Chinese scholar Long Xingchun confidently opines, “Though the U.S. and other Western countries have the intention to contain China through supporting India, they have a wide range of common interests with China.” The West is unlikely to “unconditionally stand on the side of India”. When combined with the strategic depth that China enjoys because of a stable strategic equation with Russia, the international environment from Beijing’s eyes seems comfortable and a far cry from the isolation China faced in the lead-up to the 1962 war or even the 1967 border crisis.

Ironically, the reasons for China’s reluctance to escalate the crisis emanate from its strength and rising international profile. Outbreak of hostilities on the Himalayan border would taint China’s image and undermine the internationalism surrounding the Belt and Road discourse. It would also fuel anti-Chinese sentiment in India, which both Washington and Tokyo would almost certainly profit from. Even on a sub-regional level, a conflict with India would steer China further towards an irredentist Pakistan as its sole partner, a suboptimal outcome for Beijing, which prefers a wider profile in the subcontinent.

From Delhi’s vantage point, calculating India’s relative position is less straightforward. Too be sure, policymakers have successfully navigated the uncertainty around Indo-U.S. relations after the interlude of suspense since January this year. The bilateral relationship is stable and poised to grow. The ongoing Malabar exercises involving the Indian, Japanese and U.S. navies in the Indian Ocean also offer psychological comfort to Delhi in the backdrop of the continental stand-off in the north. Some observers, however, exaggerate the geopolitical setting and impute a wider dimension to Indo-U.S. ties that might have faded since the Obama period. Further, with the U.S. inclined to resist Iranian and Russian influence in Afghanistan and further west, a Himalayan Cold War would be a distraction from more pressing geopolitical challenges elsewhere.

The situation in the subcontinent is equally complex. Given Pakistan’s unabated proxy conflict in Kashmir, an escalation with China will truly bring the two-front situation back into play after decades. On the other hand, the rest of the neighbourhood would prefer a stable India-China equation. Each of India’s neighbours has adopted a dual track foreign policy where special or friendly ties with India are supplemented by geo-economic linkages with China. A Sino-Indian conflict disrupts this triangular dynamic and impels these states to make choices they would rather not make. This sub-regional reality cannot be wished away by India, or for that matter China.

It should be clear that both countries have much to lose in an armed clash and a new Cold War in the region. Hopefully, the virtues of restraint would be obvious to both Delhi and Beijing.

Zorawar Daulet Singh is a Fellow at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi
PS: I suggest that we send a flood of anti-Chinese verbiage to XI Gins,C/o the Chinese embassy in Delhi and through any email ids that we can locate of Chinese govt. entities.A 'dump" of such emails would prevent the PRC from getting hold of our individual IDs,preventing then from hacking,etc. But the message must be sent to the triad chief XI Gins and in no uncertain terms with the choicest of colourful phrases. An anti-China mood must be created in Indai s we simply cannot have China orchestrate Paki terror with one hand and its own brazen aggression on the other.

The GOI should seriously start using the two "T" cards that ti has in its pocket.These are lethal cards that can undermine China's global stature and threaten more copycat diplomatic action from similarly threatened nations. India has to prepare the ground for such an offensive. WE cannot allow such an opportunity to pass,when China is the clear aggressor.
Last edited by Philip on 13 Jul 2017 11:50, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

India-China trade talks deadlocked - Arun S, The Hindu
Trade talks between India and China remained deadlocked with neither side willing to offer concessions to end the impasse, official sources said.

Recent bilateral talks on issues relating to farm products, which took place in the backdrop of the military standoff in the Doklam area of the India-Bhutan-China tri-junction, failed to make any headway, said the trade officials. China deferred taking a decision on grant of market access to Indian rice, pomegranate, okra and bovine meat, while India opted to stick to its ban on imports of apple, pear, milk and milk products from China, the sources said. {Milk & milk products from China must *NEVER* be allowed into India, trade pact or not. They are substandard and adulterated.}
The details of the talks will soon be shared with the Embassy of India in Beijing, they added.

The discussions were held with visiting officials from the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine of China (AQSIQ) – the body “in charge of national quality, metrology, entry-exit commodity inspection, entry-exit health quarantine, entry-exit animal and plant quarantine, import-export food safety, certification and accreditation, standardisation, as well as administrative law-enforcement.”

“India has an alarming trade deficit that in our view emanates from obstacles to market access in China,” Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar said in a speech in Singapore on July 11. Pointing out that negotiations on the long-standing boundary dispute also still continue, Mr. Jaishankar had said, “When the leaders of the two countries met at Astana, they reached consensus on [the point that]... India and China must not allow differences to become disputes. This consensus underlines the strategic maturity with which the two countries must continue to approach each other.”
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

even the chinese are shit scared of their milk products. there is a booming market for overseas chinese students and businesses to ship milk products like baby food back to the mainland in bulk.

i also understand now why shandong pears are no more on indian shelves. it was there a year ago.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Philip »

A nationwide movement to boycott all Chinese goods must be started asap. Every city must have its task force and volunteers to educate the public.I've been recirculating the names of Chinese cos. manufacturing consumer goods available in India.We should list them on BRF too.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

China sends PLA unit to man overseas base - PTI
China has dispatched People’s Liberation Army (PLA) personnel to man its first overseas military base at Djibouti in the strategic Indian Ocean region, a move likely to spark concerns in the U.S.

Ships carrying Chinese military personnel departed Zhanjiang in southern China’s Guangdong Province on Tuesday to set up a support base in Djibouti, located in the Horn of Africa, state-run Xinhua news agency reported.

Shen Jinlong, commander of the PLA navy, read an order on constructing the base in Djibouti, and conferred the military flag on the fleets.

The establishment of the PLA Djibouti base was a decision made by the two countries after friendly negotiations :lol: , and accords with the common interest of the people from both sides, the PLA navy said {China has already extended loans of USD 9.8 Billion to a poor Djibouti which cannot absorb the loans, leave alone return them with interest. It is believed that Djibouti went the same way as Sri Lanka and Maldives which unable to manage the unsustainable rates of Chinese loans buckled and ceded territory, concessions and sovereignty to China. In early December 2015, China and Djibouti signed a 10-year lease agreement for the base that will hold 700 troops at any time for an annual rent of USD 100 million.} . The base will ensure China’s performance of missions, such as escorting, peace-keeping and humanitarian aid in Africa and West Asia, the report said.

Joint drills


The base will also conduct overseas tasks, including military cooperation, joint exercises, evacuating and protecting overseas Chinese and emergency rescue, as well as jointly maintaining security of international strategic seaways.

Djibouti base, which China says is more of a logistical and resting centre than a military base, was under construction since 2011.

It is the first such base being set up by China. The second base is coming up in Gwadar, Pakistan, which links up with China through the $50 billion China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.

In March this year, Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post had reported that China plans to increase the size of its marine corps from 20,000 to 1 lakh personnel for overseas deployment, including at Gwadar and Djibouti.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Karthik S »

Is China conducting feasibility study of Chennai Delhi high speed rail? Will it be good if they invest $45B or so from our perspective.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Philip »

We don't need a single (slur edited out - Philip, please man exercise restraint, you are forcing my hand here - JE Menon) on Indian soil or anything from that pestilential parasitical country.The sooner we impose a toal ban on all Chinese goods being brought into India the better.At one stroke a $50B trade deficit will be wiped out and a goodly part of that saved amt. each yr. could be spent on expanding and modernising the armed forces.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by schinnas »

SSridhar wrote: Exactly why Jaishankar should not have talked about the incident. Their Foreign Secretary is keeping quiet and letting his minions handle our Foreign Secretary.
Two can play that game. It is not practical that their foreign secretary (or an equivalent ranked official) will keep mum on any India related contentious matter for next several months. At any time they open their mouth, we can have one of our paan chewing low level babus to respond. I believe Jaisankar extended an olive branch to help de-escalate but a confused Cheen government has botched up the matters.

As I said, until Chinese are administered a tight hard slap on the LoC and pushed back from more than one of their illegal encroachments, they are unlikely to climb down from their high horse. They seem to live in a reality of their own.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

Sushma Swaraj calls all-party meet on India-China border stand-off - Economic Times
The government has called an all party meet on Friday on the stand-off between Indian and Chinese troops along the border, government sources said on Thursday.

The meeting, which is likely to be held at Home Minister Rajnath Singh's residence, is aimed at briefing the opposition parties about the situation along the border in Sikkim where a stand-off has been continuing since June.

The meeting, for which invitation has gone from External Affairs Minister, comes ahead of the Monsoon session of parliament set to start from July 17.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Dumal »

schinnas wrote:
SSridhar wrote: Exactly why Jaishankar should not have talked about the incident. Their Foreign Secretary is keeping quiet and letting his minions handle our Foreign Secretary.
Two can play that game. It is not practical that their foreign secretary (or an equivalent ranked official) will keep mum on any India related contentious matter for next several months. At any time they open their mouth, we can have one of our paan chewing low level babus to respond. I believe Jaisankar extended an olive branch to help de-escalate but a confused Cheen government has botched up the matters.

As I said, until Chinese are administered a tight hard slap on the LoC and pushed back from more than one of their illegal encroachments, they are unlikely to climb down from their high horse. They seem to live in a reality of their own.
Exactly! Let's not second-guess our communications strategy. I would rather assume a lot of thought goes into who communicates and what.

Also I think the briefing to opposition parties is a key moment. There must be something substantial expected and/or planned from our side. Whatever is discussed with the opposition may be deemed as good as public, even though they all may be under the oath of secrecy. The next serious signs to look for would then be briefings to the Prez? Let's see how far this goes!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by TKiran »

Hans are half hearted to confront IA this time.

They thought there will be no resistance from IA. When faced with resistance, they got into dilemma, whether to go for confrontation and teach India lesson or to use their usual psyops and dislodge IA without confrontation.

They have been trying hard, but they don't have a solution yet as this is boxing them into a corner.

Expect irrational things happen and they may get a bloody nose.but the damage would be concealed as the average Han doesn't know what is happening at tri-junction.

We need to give full access to rNDTV, even if they peddle anti-national views, as publicity is publicity, positive or negative doesn't matter, the Hans will start Browning their pants. We should also start the propaganda.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bart S »

DavidD wrote:
He sounds like a very intelligent and level-headed individual.
:rotfl:

Just like the PRC embassy outing Pappu, you guys seem to be really good at outing your sympathizers :twisted:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by DrRatnadip »

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/kashmir ... 578807.cms

India rejects China's offer to play 'constructive role' over Kashmir, says it is a 'bilateral issue'

NEW DELHI: India on Thursday rejected China says willing to play 'constructive role' over Kashmir on the Kashmir issue and said "New Delhi's position on addressing all issues with Pakistan in a bilateral framework has not changed."
"Heart of the matter is cross-border terrorism perpetrated on India," MEA spokesperson Gopal Baglay said when asked to comment on China's remarks.

We must return favour by offering to mediate bet PRC and Taiwan.. :evil:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pattnayak »

Liu Xiabao passes away. Any bets on how many editorials on Liu Xiabao and his struggle against Chinese government will be written by our erudite journalists in the newspapers for tomorrow?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

All under a Chinese heaven: China uses an idealised version of its imperial past to promote a 19th century agenda - Suisheng Zhao, ToI
An oft-repeated exhortation in China is “use the past to serve the present.” Historical memories are a powerful force that not only bind the Chinese people together and form their national identity but also motivate Chinese leaders to find what they regard as China’s rightful place in the world.

Image

What they celebrate is an imperial China reconstructed as the benevolent centre of East Asia, to advance the agenda of China’s rise as a return to the harmonious state and to reassure neighbours who worry about the nation’s rising threat. The leaders insist that a powerful China can be peaceful.

Following President Hu Jintao’s concept of the harmonious world derived from traditional Chinese philosophy, President Xi Jinping has famously said that “the genes’ order” and “inherited national spirit” determine that “the Chinese nation is a peace-loving nation.” He goes on to suggest that the pursuit of peace and harmony is deeply rooted in the spirit and blood of the Chinese people, although millennia of violent history tell another story.

In the meantime, Chinese scholars have reconstructed a benevolent Chinese empire Tianxia, all-under-heaven, based on the royal ethics, or wangdao. This has emerged as a popular way to convey the “Chinese normative principle of international relations in contrast with the principles of sovereignty and the structure of international anarchy which form the core of the contemporary international system,” suggests Allen Carlson in the Journal of Contemporary China.

Zhao Tingyang describes Tianxia as a universal system inherited from the Zhou dynasty about 3,000 years ago. The system, maintained by cultural attraction and ruling by virtue, is embodied in the Chinese ideal of perpetual peace.

Yan Xuetong’s study determined that ancient Chinese thinkers advised rulers to rely on ethics and use benevolent government to rule the world. Yan distinguishes three types of ethics in ancient China: Royal ethics focused on peaceful means to win the hearts and minds of people at home and abroad. Tyranny, based on military force, inevitably created enemies. Hegemonic ethics lay in between – frequently indifferent to moral concerns, it often involved violence against non-allies, but did not cheat people at home or allies abroad. Royal ethics was preferred over hegemony or tyranny.

In comparison with western countries that used coercive power to build colonies, the Chinese world order was more civil, attracting admiration from tributary states without use of force. Emphasising benevolent governance, etiquette, peace and denying the imperialistic nature, imperial China and its relations with surrounding regions were far more advanced than the colonialism of western countries.

But recent scholarship in the West suggests that imperial China, like its counterparts, was not uniquely benevolent or uniquely violent. Warfare was constant in imperial China, with regions often in disunion or under foreign invasion. China’s ruler during the Yuan dynasty, Kublai Khan, expanded the empire by military expedition, stretching across Central Asia, Burma and Vietnam. The last Chinese dynasty, Qing, expanded to unprecedented size, nearly doubling land holdings from the previous Ming dynasty mostly through military force.


From this perspective, Peter Perdue argues that the techniques used by the Ming and Qing dynasties to legitimise their rule over subjects and claim superiority over rivals were not radically different from those of other empires. Citing comparative history studies that point to substantial similarities of the Ming and Qing to the Russian, Mughal and Ottoman imperial formations, or even to early modern France, Perdue suggested that the concept of “colonialism” could be usefully employed to describe certain aspects of Qing practice.

Imperial China had to use military force to defend and expand the empire because its territorial domain, defined loosely by cultural principles, was not always accepted by its neighbours. Following the policy of fusion and expansion, whenever imperial China was powerful, it tried to expand frontiers by claiming suzerainty over smaller neighbours. The expansion, however, often met with resistance. Chinese empire was not shy about military conquest.

Sun Tzu’s Art of War was thus written during a time when, as Kevin Rudd said, war was a permanent condition: “The bulk of Sun Tzu’s work is how to prevail in a conflict against another state or states by either non-military or military means. Taken in insolation, it can be interpreted as meaning that conflict and war represented the natural and inevitable condition of humankind.”

There is nothing wrong with looking to China’s past to help understand China’s future. But Chinese intellectuals and political leaders are engaging in selective remembering, often reconstructed history, to advance the government’s political agenda and justify its concept of justice and view of China’s rightful place in the world.

Historical discourse has, therefore, become extremely politicised in China. Chinese elites, therefore, often draw contradictory policy agendas from the study of history. On the one hand, Chinese leaders present an idealised version of imperial China to support the claims of China’s peaceful rise and, on the other, take the lesson that imperial China’s collapse was because its strength was not enough to defend its existence, Chinese elites have called for China to follow the law of survival, with the weakest eliminated, to become the strongest again.

Reconstruction of China’s imperial past to advance the contemporary agenda of its peaceful rise has, ironically, set a 19th century agenda for 21st century China – intended to restore the regional hierarchy and maximise security by expanding influence and control over its neighbourhoods.
Well articulated and similar to what we have also discussed here. CPC is imperial in nature and behaviour because that is ingrained in Chinese genes. Understanding this is essential in managing the Chinese threat.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by darshan »

Philip wrote:A nationwide movement to boycott all Chinese goods must be started asap. Every city must have its task force and volunteers to educate the public.I've been recirculating the names of Chinese cos. manufacturing consumer goods available in India.We should list them on BRF too.
+1. Direct chinese commercial involvement should be kept at arms length. Such lists should be tweeted/fb/whatsapp to PMO, celebrities, major political parties on regular basis to keep up constant support. Many in new generation are clueless about how chinese are the enemy for Indians due to poor education and media.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ramana »

shiv wrote:^^Thanks. But I have never disabled comments on any videos that I have made. They give me an insight into who is watching and what they think.

Shiv, Very good move. Comments tell us what the mind is thinking.
Thanks for the video.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ramana »

schinnas wrote:
SSridhar wrote: Exactly why Jaishankar should not have talked about the incident. Their Foreign Secretary is keeping quiet and letting his minions handle our Foreign Secretary.
Two can play that game. It is not practical that their foreign secretary (or an equivalent ranked official) will keep mum on any India related contentious matter for next several months. At any time they open their mouth, we can have one of our paan chewing low level babus to respond. I believe Jaisankar extended an olive branch to help de-escalate but a confused Cheen government has botched up the matters.

As I said, until Chinese are administered a tight hard slap on the LoC and pushed back from more than one of their illegal encroachments, they are unlikely to climb down from their high horse. They seem to live in a reality of their own.

schinnas, I guess you don't know IFS hierarchy.

There are no paan chewing babus there.
If any such exist they have no voice.
The MEA secy or the official spokesperson are the only voices.

Also not Sushma Swaraj is inviting Opposition leaders to MHA home.
That is the protocol.
MHA is the internal king working for PM emperor.

This means quite serious.

At same time scuttle butt from third parties visiting China is the media is on a frenzy whipping up expectations of how Led Almy will whip Indian solly behinds.

Third parties are familiar with Doklam Chu incident.

Totally unrelated thing floating in my mind:

Xi Jin Ping is transforming China from Communist China to nationalist China using Doklam Chu incident.

This is the reverse globalism movement in China.

SSridhar, Shiv, RD

please critique this thought.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ramana »

chola or schinnas,
Can either of you in one post from Wikipedia the maps of different Chinese Dynasties from the First dynasty.
I wonder what the maps will show?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:
Xi Jin Ping is transforming China from Communist China to nationalist China using Doklam Chu incident.
My take:

In neurological medicine there is an expression called "semi-purposive movement" or pseudo purposive movement. What this means is that the sufferer of some neurological disorders unfortunately has sudden jerky movements of body parts over which the person has no control. So, suddenly, and arm may fling upwards. Gradually, in order to avoid attracting attention and looking silly the poor sufferer learns to convert the inadvertent jerk into what looks like a deliberate movement like adjusting his hair or scratching his nose. As if he really wanted to make that movement - even though it started off as an inadvertent, unwanted movement.

China is displaying semi-purposive movement

Here the Chinese were romping around Bhutan. They knew too damn well where they were and what they were doing. If you follow the Chinese tracks inside the Bhutanese Doklam plateau - they end EXACTLY at the border with India. Not an millimeter beyond the ridgeline that marks the border. These guys have been caught with their pants down.

Now Eleven has no other go than to pretend that some great national purpose is being achieved or he loses face like a wax bust under a bloworch
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by TKiran »

Ramana gaaru, forgive me for "choti mooh, badi baat", but as per my sources in Han core China, nobody knows that there is something going on at the remote place of Doklam Chu, only English language news of global times is screeching, absolute sensorship going on about the border row.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Track from China into Bhutan ends exactly at the border
Image
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by schinnas »

ramana wrote:chola or schinnas,
Can either of you in one post from Wikipedia the maps of different Chinese Dynasties from the First dynasty.
I wonder what the maps will show?
Interestingly the maps show that of all the recorded Chinese / Han dynasties from 1000 BCE till now, only 2 dynasties even touched Indian or Bhutanese or Nepali border before Mao's occupation of the Buddhist Republic of Tibet .

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _China.gif

[Edited to add] PS:

The accuracy of the maps around some areas seem to be debated, but they are relatively minor and do not stand in our goal of looking at the historic trend.

The truth is out in the open for anyone who cares to look. Cheen does not have any true historic standing for any of the claims they make against India or Bhutan.

Cheen is indulging in aggressive naked land grab by partially citing history. May be we should cite Chola naval conquests and claim South China Sea!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by schinnas »

http://www.rediff.com/news/interview/wh ... 170713.htm

'India has deployed troops in a third country for the first time to challenge China'

'This is potentially escalatory, as China does not believe that India has any basis for interfering in a bilateral dispute between China and one of its neighbours.'

M Taylor Fravel, an expert on China's border issues, weighed in on the standoff between that country and India at Dokalam over a dispute with a third country, Bhutan.

Dr Fravel, who has written a book titled Strong Borders, Secure Nation about China's various border disputes, offers no facile solutions to the issue, but suggests that both sides may be working under their own constraints: China may be trying to consolidate its position while Bhutan had to go to India, the only power capable of taking on China.

In the interview with P Rajendran, Dr Fravel, left, below, also pointed out where the media may have inadvertently muddied the waters by mixing up the locations and helping sow more confusion.

Q: What do you think of the current situation involving India and China at Dokalam? Could you compare the relative validity of the arguments by the two sides here?

The dispute revolves around two issues.

First, the location of the trijunction or where the borders of India, China and Bhutan.

Because each country places the trijunction in a different location, and because of the location of the boundaries, the differences over the trijunction creates a dispute between China and Bhutan.

Specifically, the source of the disagreement appears to revolve around the starting point of the China-India border named in a 1890 convention between Great Britain and China versus the watershed principle for delimiting the border contained in the same convention.

In other words, the challenge is how to implement the relatively terse language of the convention on the complicated geography on the ground.

Second, for the first time, India has deployed troops in a third country (Bhutan) to challenge China's actions on the border.

This is potentially escalatory, as China does not believe that India has any basis for interfering in a bilateral dispute between China and one of its neighbours.

China claims India should not get involved in its border issues with Bhutan.

Q: Does India have a say in this dispute, using an argument similar to what it used in the case of Bangladesh in 1971 -- that it is under threat by construction of what will be a road for the Chinese military -- and thus weaken its dominant position there?

India appears to be acting based on its treaty with Bhutan.

However, India's main reason for acting is its fear that China may consolidate its position in the area and that, in turn, could allow China to dominate Indian forces defending the Siliguri Corridor, or 'chicken's neck', key to India's territorial integrity.

Q: With all the disputes -- admittedly most of them at sea -- that it is dealing with, what compulsions would drive China to risk more conflict by building a road on disputed territory?
Would it be a way to force a deal with Bhutan, to get it to deal directly with Beijing instead of speaking to its representatives in Delhi?


Based on imagery available from Google Earth, China's presence in the area disputed with Bhutan at the trijunction is not new.

Images from 2005 (the first year available in Google Earth) show a road or track from undisputed Chinese territory in the Chumbi Valley into the area disputed with Bhutan and terminating as little as 200 meters from an Indian outpost that appears to be Doka La.


This road may have been built earlier, however.

Also, it is unclear if China was upgrading this existing road or extending it south, toward the trijunction.

From China's perspective, its main goal was probably to consolidate areas under its control along its southwestern border, including disputed areas that it has controlled for some time.

More generally, China has used border negotiations as a means to engage in direct diplomatic relations with Bhutan, despite the fact that the two countries do not formally maintain diplomatic relations with each other.

Nevertheless, it is unclear if China's activities in the disputed area were driven by a desire to accelerate border talks or negotiations with Bhutan.

Instead, the most likely explanation is the simplest one, that China's effort to consolidate areas under its control appeared to threaten two of its neighbors.

Q: What about Bhutan? What does its relatively quiescent role in the dispute suggest -- despite its demand that China stop building the contentious road?

Only India has the capabilities to challenge China's activities in the area, which means that Bhutan must rely on India.

Q: You had mentioned in an interview a few years earlier that China only had land disputes with India and Bhutan. Has anything changed since then?

No. All of China's other land border disputes have been resolved.

Q: Could the Chinese allowing pilgrims to still go to Manasarovar be seen as a sign that some reconciliation is possible?

Yes, that would be a clear signal that China had believed that tensions were easing.

But China is only likely to do so once Indian troops leave the area that China disputes with Bhutan.

Q: What might be an ultimate solution to the impasse, given that the Chinese have already shifted from a call for Aksai Chin to one for land in Arunachal Pradesh, too?
Would that be a feint or a set of extra demand to work down during negotiations to the old one?

Very hard to say!

At the trijunction, the goal should be the restoration of stability.

This will likely require, at a minimum, that China halt efforts to extend its roads in the area and that Indian troops return to Indian territory.

Ideally, China might also withdraw from the disputed area or at least not move beyond areas over which it exercised control prior to the current standoff.

Mutual restraint by both sides could then create an opening for talks regarding the location of the trijunction, which would resolve the dispute in the area.

Q: Finally, are there other issues of importance that need to be understood?

A few things:

First, the area of dispute is the Dolam (or Dokalam) Plateau.

The Doklam Plateau is another area disputed by China and Bhutan to the north of the current dispute.

Second, much of the discussion in the Indian press appears to miss the fact that China has had a road in the area for some time, at least since 2005, but probably earlier.

China is unlikely to leave an area where it believes it had already consolidated its position.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by rsingh »

Ok there are some informations about internal situation in China ( No source but information is credible. Ex army men (old guard) are not happy with XI. There are protests where they dress-up into old maoist uniforms and come to the street. it is in southern provence (i forgot the name). This provence ripe for separatist movements. Officials from Chinese capital are taken as foreigners. This could be actual reason why China is putting its H&D on stake, while protecting Southern boundaries. And one more thing, Tibetan policeman and Army men are extra cruel to Tibetan population to get huge financial rewards. Chinese knows that things will be more quite different once Dalai Lama dies. Protests in Tibet will be violent. They have this window to strengthen their stronghold.

On MEA:
I do same sentiments about MEA's apparent indifference. But we should not forget that a good diplomate has to keep all paths open. Some times situation is very fluid and DC is asked to do 180°. Otherwise they and up doing foot in mouth statements. Politicians tend to have very short memory.
salam
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

schinnas wrote:Interestingly the maps show that of all the recorded Chinese / Han dynasties from 1000 BCE till now, only 2 dynasties even touched Indian or Bhutanese or Nepali border before Mao's occupation of the Buddhist Republic of Tibet .

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _China.gif
Great map. Chini position thus far has been that if ever any han dynasty controlled any land any where for any length of time, that land rightfully belongs to PRC now. Perhaps the Indian approach should match the chinis. I wonder if there were any incursions of any Hindu kingdoms or Dharmic thoughts into the present chini land ever? Perhaps a similar map would help explain that? Thanks for the effort.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ramana »

schinnas, Thank you so much.

Yes this animated map is even better as it shows the recent claims are only after Tibet occupation.


rsingh try to recall name of that Southern Chinese province. Yunan?
That was old strong hold of Maoists in WWII.

shiv, There is a Chinese saying by Lin YuTang
"When small men cast big shadows, its time for sunset!"

Coming true now.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by V_Raman »

From my chinese colleagues at work, they go by Qing dynasty
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by NRao »

schinnas wrote:Interestingly the maps show that of all the recorded Chinese / Han dynasties from 1000 BCE till now, only 2 dynasties even touched Indian or Bhutanese or Nepali border before Mao's occupation of the Buddhist Republic of Tibet .

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _China.gif
Any info on what went on in Tibet during the same periods?

If someone can superimpose that info on this very gif, then it would clearly show the clear invasive nature of anyone on Tibet. This gif only provides succor to those who know the dynamics of the region, does not provide the invasive information to those who have no clue about what Tibet in the Chinese context is about.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suraj »

schinnas wrote:
ramana wrote:chola or schinnas,
Can either of you in one post from Wikipedia the maps of different Chinese Dynasties from the First dynasty.
I wonder what the maps will show?
Interestingly the maps show that of all the recorded Chinese / Han dynasties from 1000 BCE till now, only 2 dynasties even touched Indian or Bhutanese or Nepali border before Mao's occupation of the Buddhist Republic of Tibet .

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _China.gif

[Edited to add] PS:

The accuracy of the maps around some areas seem to be debated, but they are relatively minor and do not stand in our goal of looking at the historic trend.

The truth is out in the open for anyone who cares to look. Cheen does not have any true historic standing for any of the claims they make against India or Bhutan.

Cheen is indulging in aggressive naked land grab by partially citing history. May be we should cite Chola naval conquests and claim South China Sea!
Actually you are not very precise when you say " of all the recorded Chinese / Han dynasties from 1000 BCE till now, only 2 dynasties even touched Indian or Bhutanese or Nepali border". Yes, of all Chinese dynasties. BOTH of those two were NOT Han. The first was Yuan Dynasty, i.e. the Mongols. The second was the Qing Dynasty, i.e. the Manchus. NO Han-led dynasty has ever held Tibet. Mao's takeover is the very first time that has happened.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

schinnas wrote:
First, the area of dispute is the Dolam (or Dokalam) Plateau.

The Doklam Plateau is another area disputed by China and Bhutan to the north of the current dispute.

Second, much of the discussion in the Indian press appears to miss the fact that China has had a road in the area for some time, at least since 2005, but probably earlier.

China is unlikely to leave an area where it believes it had already consolidated its position.
Rohi Vats whom we successfully kicked out of the forum in our wisdom and aheadofcurvedness has a much better article on this than this FravalShaval guy - an unknown "expert"
http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/07/
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by anupmisra »

V_Raman wrote:From my chinese colleagues at work, they go by Qing dynasty
That would include Mongolia and parts of Siberia.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Iyersan »

Historically Wary of China, Tibetans in Exile Appreciate India's Bold Stance in Doklam
http://www.news18.com/news/india/histor ... 60783.html
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