Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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shiv
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 08 Aug 2017 20:09

Suraj wrote:My fundamental point remains - the government MUST respond to *every* Chinese action. The nature of their actions demand that. They are probing - the lack of a response guarantees further probing. In any given year, the Chinese act dozens of times. That requires that the Government assiduously develop levers of response, that can be applied repeatedly at will. Further, actions must be focused on the Chinese, not the Indian populace.
.

Based on my own sense of deep disappointment about how India has handled information flow about Pakistan (observed over 2 decades) I am inclined to agree with Suraj that the government must respond to Chinese provocations and let them be known. Lots of articles are appearing nowadays indicating that the government has taken a soft approach towards China, playing down provocations and understating Chinese perfidy.

Frustratingly - the little that the public in India know about Pakistani perfidy has little to do with governmental channels but because of MSM and social media. Only NOW with the current govt is there some mild acknowledgement of Pakistan and separatists as some sort of problem but there is still no movement on stopping trade and that silly Wagah cabaret

I stated earlier and I state again that government action makes people comply. It is amazing how people actually wear helmets and set belts in Bangalore. Why? The government has imposed it. The government plays a very important lead role and must announce Chinese perfidy to the nation and either implement measures to dilute that OR take suggestions and help from people.

I walk down the narrow lanes of the city area of Bengaluru into shops with no floor space - filled with coloured plastic and styrofoam China goods. Pressure from the government will make these excellent businessmen change their mode of profit. When the government banned plastic carry bags and other plastic items - it took 4-5 months but everyone responded. The wholesalers, the retailers and the bulk consumers like caterers who cater to 500 or 1000 people for a meal at one wedding.

Part of the problem may be that politicians in government are hand in glove with profiteers who import from China and dump on India. If NDA is as bad as UPA here - I have no suggestions.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kancha » 08 Aug 2017 20:30

Posted another blog titled Bhutan and Its Neighbours: The Tango

Once again, not talked about the current standoff, but the inter-play between Bhutan and its neighbours. Some of my opinions may be at variance with some folks on the forum, but that might make for an interesting exchange of ideas.

Do have a look

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Suraj » 08 Aug 2017 20:46

Let me state further about social boycotts . Here's the situation : the Chinese aren't doing the same as Pakistan . They aren't interested in loud dramabazi about cashmere . They are quite content to nibble quietly . They do dramabazi when stopped in their tracks . But they'll back off and try again. That is the nature of their Suntzutiapa.

That means we have three responses requirements : must be immediate, must be effective, and must be repeatable . A one time boycott is greatly effective, just for a while . But its not immediate and it's not repeatable . After about the third boycott call in a month, people will just leave the relevant whatsapp group.

The Chinese probe us dozens of times a year . Not merely at the border . Not even at NSG or UN. They probe our ability to identify the volume of crap they export to us . Lots of examples have been provided - bulk drugs, textiles, equipment, electronics... it takes time, money and effort to respond to.

In response to all that is what I suggested - the best response to the deficit is to tax it . And use that money to run what the additional brigades, pay the Tibetans and the commerce ministry's import standards watchdog to handle them. To paraphrase Patton using shiv-a-lingo, I don't want to win the war by having my own people sacrifice for my country, when I can win it by making the other poor bust-hard sacrifice for my country instead .

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Liu » 08 Aug 2017 20:47

it is reported that chinese citizens in india now start retreating.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Aug 2017 21:01

Liu wrote:it is reported that chinese citizens in india now start retreating.

does that mean chinese soldiers in Dhok lam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 08 Aug 2017 21:07

Diplomacy to defuse India, China border crisis slams into a wall: sources

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India's diplomatic efforts to end a seven-week military standoff with China have hit a roadblock, people briefed on the talks said, prompting Chinese state-run media to trumpet rhetoric of "unavoidable countermeasures" on the unmarked border.

China has insisted that India unilaterally withdraw its troops from the remote Doklam plateau claimed by both Beijing and Indian ally Bhutan.

But China did not respond to India's suggestion in the talks that it move its troops back 250 meters (820 ft) in return, said one source with close ties to Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government.

In the low-key diplomatic maneuvers that took place outside the public eye, the Chinese countered with an offer to move back 100 meters (328 ft), so long as they received clearance from top government officials.

But there has been no comeback since, except for China's mounting warnings of an escalation in the region, which it calls Donglang.

"It is a logjam, there is no movement at all now," said a second source with knowledge of the talks.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sudhan » 08 Aug 2017 21:08

Liu wrote:it is reported that chinese citizens in india now start retreating.


Everyone, kindly extend your daily planned dhoti shivering sessions by a good 1 min. The mighty dragon has finally run out of patience!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Aug 2017 21:12

One thing noteworthy is the changing tune of Indian and global articles (excluding gobar*) with the passage of time.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vijaykarthik » 08 Aug 2017 21:58

ramana wrote:
I guess I asked the wrong person.

What do you think they were doing?
What are their aims?



It could be that China wants to do something in some part of its near neighborhood.

a. For about 2 years they changed the contours of the SCS. And the UNCLOS happened and China changed the facts on the ground and didn't bother much about the UNCLOS ruling. Ofcourse US and Japan and Vietnam etc aren't too happy and are doing counter measures. Its likely that they have reached the limit of what they can do there currently without getting the watch of US or getting into a limited skirmish with the US / any of its allies.

b. They don't want to do anything in ECS now as any more moves there will perhaps force the US to come into picture and that leads us into a bit of point 1 again.

c. Considering that China wants to do something in the near neighborhood, they decided that the land border (particularly India border) is the best region to carry out the next round. This will help them to find how much India is willing to stand its ground and also see who is going to support / what moves will happen. Besides, this will also be a "lesson" to India for not toeing the line on OBOR.

--
China has been increasingly revisionist. They change the facts on the ground and then negotiate (ahem, their version of negotiation is fundamentally different) from a position of strength. This time was intended to be no different - good that we observed early.

--
FWIW, me and a couple guys tried to figure a different game theory exercise about a month ago to see what China will do in a hypothetical situation (we were of course given random probabilities for a few events): we decided force, status quo and arbitration (in that order).

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 08 Aug 2017 22:02

Liu wrote:it is reported that chinese citizens in india now start retreating.

Bullshit. It would get reported in local papers here first.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 08 Aug 2017 22:16

Some body talked about an Earthquake due in China. Well there was one. Not much impact. May be its a start.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Marten » 08 Aug 2017 22:19

6.5 in Sichuan. Reports are only coming in now.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Lisa » 08 Aug 2017 22:25

chola wrote:Everything is in place:

http://www.newsweek.com/china-military-launch-war-games-warning-us-north-korea-nuclear-crisis-647576

CHINA'S MILITARY LAUNCHES WAR GAMES AS WARNING TO U.S., NORTH KOREA AMID NUCLEAR MISSILE CRISIS
BY TOM O'CONNOR ON 8/7/17 AT 2:42 PM


For those in the know a question. In the video in the link above at 0:22 appox the ship appears to be empty/very high in the water. Is this normal?

Thank you in advance.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 08 Aug 2017 22:53

So the Chinese intruded 5 km into Bhutanese territory and now we are talking about them moving back 100m what about the 4900m that they have already occupied, I hope we are continually patroling behind the lines that are currently been drawnup to show the entire place is disputed.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 08 Aug 2017 22:58

https://www.thequint.com/india/2017/08/ ... ina-border
Army Moves Troops of Sukna-Based 33 Corps to India-China Border

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Aug 2017 23:07

Tandav brings up a very interesting point that is at the root of this whole thing. Many areas are "disputed". In fact I decided that New York State was shown on Chenghis Khan's map, so it is actually Mongolian territory. The name "Buffalo" came from "Yak". There! NY State is "disputed".

OK, Many nations who are weak-kneed, cowardly etc. sign Non-Intrusion Agreements that no one is to change the Status Quo Ante or Ground Reality in the Disputed Areas. Inaction is Action. That's it, no roads. No chai-kada. No Portoilet. No bridge. The place lies totally undeveloped, the residents if any remain in abject poverty.

Well! Lear Superlpowels did not get where they are by such Inaction. Look at Israel: no way is the West Bank going to reach a final Settlement as in problem resolved. So they Settle the Problem by sending Settlers. I don't see the USA sending the Marines to reverse this, and restore the Status Quo Ante.

China is doing the same thing:
a) Dispute a place
b) Sign a Non-Disturbance Agreement
c) Send in their people to build roads, Tourist Resorts, then the Cruise Ship Liaoning. Then an airfield.

This is called "Fait Accompli".

What about India? U mean the people who have not been able to settle the Ayodhya Ram Temple case in the Allahabad High Court for over 70 years? Those who went to the UNSC to try to get back POK? :rotfl:

The Chinese just go and start building infrastructure. They did it in the South China Sea, and Sea of Japan. Now they are doing it in Arunachal, POK, Aksai Hind, and now Doklam.

What is anyone to do about it? Well... so far now one has done anything, except northern neighbor Soviet Union.

How to counter this? IMO, the only thing to do is to start construction in Aksai Hind and POK and Uttar Dharmasala since all these are India's territory anyway. At Doklam, the crisis started not with Indians coming down the slopes with bulldozers, but with the Chinese climbing UP the slope and destroying Indian shelters on the slope/ridge. India needs to do the same back to them. What will they do? If there is shooting, OK, then it starts shooting all over the border.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Aug 2017 23:15

The problem is India's weakness in infrastructure construction. With some good investment, India needs to start building resorts in all the uninhabited Indian Ocean islands NOW. Plus end the suicidal policy of leaving the Nicobar islands "undisturbed". Any day now it will be realized that there is a whole nuclear sub base there and the Sentinels are all wearing Mao jackets and have Made In China spears and non-stick frying pans.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kumarn » 08 Aug 2017 23:25

http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence ... 972866.cms

What if we enter Kalapani, Kashmir: China to India

This time an official.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Aug 2017 00:19

kumarn wrote:http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/what-if-we-enter-kalapani-kashmirchina-to-india/amp_articleshow/59972866.cms

What if we enter Kalapani, Kashmir: China to India

This time an official.


If u could u would, if u can't u won't :mrgreen:

This whole thing reminds me of Russel Peter's "Be a Man!" Skit between Indian trying to buy something from Chinese merchant :P
You already entered Kashmir POK - got surgically striked! Who do u think that jalebi was for? :rotfl:
What do they want a dosa (policy paper) on what India would do to hypothetical questions?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 00:31

Sorry to spoil the fun, but ppl missed the whole point of that.

Chinese Official admits that all of POK is undisputedly Indian territory.
The other way to look at it is that China is at war with Bhutan and resents India protecting Bhutan from PLA invasion.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Gagan » 09 Aug 2017 00:39

Keep up the good work everyone. The state controlled Cheeni tabloid, Gobar Crimes is reading this dhaga and yellowing their pants.
They are cleverly claiming that BJP is calling for a boycott of cheeni goods!

If the tenor of the discussion (video available on youtube), the chinese are increasingly destitute and feeling loss of hope with the entire situation.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Narad » 09 Aug 2017 00:57

Apologies if already posted.

Global Times editor-in-chief Hu djinn's video message to India.



Summary of the video :- How dale you ignole my walnings :(( :mrgreen:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 01:30

Last edited by UlanBatori on 09 Aug 2017 02:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 01:34

del
Last edited by UlanBatori on 09 Aug 2017 02:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 09 Aug 2017 01:43

Something I mentioned in my previous post

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/exclusive-why-indian-air-force-may-best-chinese-jets-in-an-air-battle-over-tibet-1735052

both Air Forces are challenged by the mountainous terrain which makes detection of each other's aircraft difficult. In such a situation "terrain hugging fighters, masked by innumerable mountain valleys of the TAR (Tibetan Autonomous Region), will be a major factor for the both sides, delaying crucial early warning to the defenders."


This will help us negate the HQ-9 threat to some extend. Hopefully IAF makes extensive use of this.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 01:46

This is where Kaveri engine poses a winning advantage!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 02:31

Probably posted b4, but I did not realize it is current. Needs 2 b posted in full so Hu can read it.

China Tears Down the Tibetan City in the Sky

China is demolishing homes and evicting thousands from Larung Gar, the world’s largest Tibetan Buddhist institution.
By Steve Shaw
August 03, 2017
At the eastern end of the vast Tibetan Plateau lies a sprawling monastery named Larung Gar, which is the largest Tibetan Buddhist institute in the world and a monumental landmark to Tibetan culture, religion, and history. It is home to anywhere between 10,000 and 40,000 residents, including monks, nuns, and visiting students. Because Larung Gar sits at an elevation of over 13,000 feet (3,962m), it has become known as a “city in the sky.” But in June 2016, the Chinese government in Beijing issued an order that stated the site had become overcrowded and its population had to be reduced to a maximum of 5,000 by October 2017. Within weeks, work teams descended on the peaceful community and began tearing down people’s homes, reducing cabins to nothing more than splintered wood and shattered glass. The owners were forced to sign documents agreeing not to return to the area again and to “uphold the unity of the nation.”

They were then forced to board buses and were taken away.

Last year around 3,730 residents were made to leave and 172 monks’ residences and 1,328 nuns’ residences were destroyed — a total of 1,500 residences demolished. Further demolitions began earlier this year.

“The entire process — from eviction through to demolition and finally to forced removal by bus — is opaque,” said a spokesperson for advocacy organization Free Tibet.

“The authorities within the area have shared no information on the plight of those who are removed, with people saying families are forced to house any relatives who have been bused out of Larung Gar.”
As pictures began to emerge of the destruction, human rights groups and international organizations called it a crackdown on religious freedoms and an attempt by the Chinese government to destroy an icon of Tibetan culture. But with travel to the area severely restricted for international travelers, the media, and aid organizations, it was almost impossible to see first-hand what was taking place.
However, one young Canadian-Chinese man was able to reach Larung Gar due to his Chinese background and ability to speak fluent Mandarin. The Hidden Truth
In early 2017, David Chan traveled to Chengdu, the capital of China’s Sichuan province and the closest major city to Larung Gar, where he joined a group of Chinese tourists. Chinese citizens are permitted to visit Tibet as part of China’s push to make the region an attractive destination for both tourism and resettlement.

“I met a few Chinese tourists who wanted to go; I didn’t know them beforehand,” Chan said.

“We then joined one of a number of very small tours. Drivers take groups of maybe three to five in SUVs and you need the driver’s knowledge to reach Larung Gar. Without these groups it would have been very difficult to get there. “It was a very long journey from Chengdu and as we traveled we all got to know one another. When I asked my companions about Tibet they gave me the state media’s account of things. I was told that Tibetan people are very prosperous, that the Chinese government takes good care of them, that they are given money by the government for their land, and that their livestock can be sold to the Chinese government at a very premium price, and they have large tax subsidies, many things like that.

“They told me that Tibetans had no reason to oppose the Chinese government because their lives were very good. They told me the ones who protest were just troublemakers.” Tibetans have campaigned for freedom ever since Chinese forces began an occupation of their land in 1950. The Chinese government claims that accusations of oppression in Tibet are a myth and they say that Tibet becoming part of the People’s Republic of China has been overwhelmingly good for the population.

When looking at Tibet’s economic development today it can be argued that China is correct in saying that they have improved the region by introducing things such as highways, railways, hotels, and electricity but that is only if you are looking at the situation on the surface. In reality social and ethnic discrimination are prevalent, with ethnic Han Chinese being the main people to benefit from development. In 2016 the independent watchdog Freedom House noted: “Under the Chinese constitution, autonomous areas have the right to formulate their own regulations and implement national legislation in accordance with local conditions. In practice, however, decision-making power is concentrated in the hands of senior, ethnic [Han] Chinese CCP [Chinese Communist Party] officials.”

Freedom House added, “[T]he few ethnic Tibetans who occupy senior positions serve mostly as figureheads and echo official doctrine.”

Jobs from tourism, infrastructure, and construction projects are also primarily awarded to Han Chinese migrants and in some areas Han Chinese migration has been so extensive that Tibetans have been made a minority their own country.

People face arrest and punishment for “crimes” as simple as displaying a Tibetan flag or publicly protesting.

It took two days for Chan to reach Larung Gar from Chengdu and he had to pass through two road blocks which were patrolled by armed sentries. Throughout the journey he was regarded as a domestic tourist. The tourist group arrived at a time of year when demolitions had not fully resumed after the winter season.

“The level and extent of demolitions varied across different parts of the monastery complex. At some parts, it appeared as if strips of residences were being cleared out, and at some other parts, I saw numerous homes spray painted with numbers and earmarked for demolition. There was also debris lying around. I think I saw quite a lot of it. Bulldozers too,” Chan said.

“The demolitions were extensive but not widespread. By saying this, I mean to say that it was not all of the residences which were being destroyed. Some were, and some were not. There were also modern concrete residences being built by the government, alongside the original homes.

“These demolitions appeared to be more about reducing the number of monks and nuns.”

Unlike the tourists that accompanied him, Chan was keen to do more than just take photographs. To understand more about what was going on he wanted to talk to the monks and nuns directly.

“I separated myself from the rest of the group by going to a narrow alley way and I must have tried to speak to at least 20 different people but none would talk to me. Then I recalled that in the Brad Pitt movie Seven Years in Tibet, two European mountaineers managed to get through to a Tibetan village chief because they showed them a picture of the Dalai Lama. So I got a picture of him on my phone. It was by this method that I finally met a nun who was willing to engage with me.

“This nun could converse in Mandarin. She told me that the devotees saw this problem [the demolitions] as one they could not stop because China was too powerful. She said that to say there was overcrowding was not right as they had been living fine on their own. I saw that if indeed overcrowding was a problem, then the government could easily just build more houses to the side of the mountain without demolishing anything. There is was so much land it would be so simple.”

Free Tibet does not entirely dismiss the notion that Larung Gar may have become overcrowded but they say that the way that China is dealing with it is the problem. The group argues that evicting people and driving them thousands of miles away before forcibly destroying their homes does not demonstrate concern for safety and security, nor is it a policy that is seen elsewhere in major Chinese cities that also face problems with overcrowding.

The Real Agenda

Based on what he saw first-hand; Chan says that he believes that what was occurring was a case of economics and development trumping cultural and historical sensitivity.

“This appeared to be more about rejigging the area for tourism and economic activity. The negative impact on the monks’ and nuns’ chosen lives appeared incidental. I didn’t see this as an outright wiping out of the monks’ and nuns’ practices. But it was still an injustice because their voices had apparently not been given a fair and considered hearing by the Chinese government.

“I was told by both the nun and my Chinese driver that the government wants to make the place popular for tourists. The government seems to recognize that the place is quite unique in the world and they want to play down the political problems with Tibet.

“They also want to keep much of the basic Tibetan architecture so when tourists come they can see all these nice buildings and history. Now, this is all well and good but the huge cultural cost is that eventually it will no longer be a pure Buddhist academic place, it will become a tourist attraction.

“Making this even more evident is the hotels, which are about a five-minute drive from Larung Gar in the township called Serthar. Our driver took us to one of the many new hotels that had been built here by Chinese companies.

“The place we were taken to had at least at the same interior finishing standard as as a three or four-star international hotel. You had marble flooring in the lobby, you had big and very comfortable beds, and with this place being about 4,000 meters above sea level, this hotel even had individual oxygen pumps in each room. If you come down with altitude sickness – which people often get at around 4,000 to 5,000 meters – this hotel had a pump and you can just attach a mask and you can then breathe pure oxygen.

“I had been on high-altitude mountain treks in the past and had never seen anything like this. I was so surprised going into the room. I reflected that this kind of thing is probably only found in the best hotels in, say, the Swiss alps.”

The hotels are part of a much larger project, according to Washington-based International Campaign for Tibet (ICT), which released a report in March titled “Shadow of Dust Across the Sun: How Tourism is use to Counter Tibetan Cultural Resilience.” In this report the group claims that demolitions in Larung Gar and Yachen Gar — another Buddhist complex in Sichuan province — are aimed at transforming two of the world’s most famous Buddhist institutes into tourist destinations.

Matteo Mecacci, president of ICT, said in a statement: “The evidence presented in this report calls into question the entire basis of the demolition of homes and expulsion of nuns and monks, which have caused such distress. It cannot be possible for the Chinese authorities to claim there is overcrowding and not enough space for genuine religious practitioners given the extent of construction over a vast area in this remote valley.”

Chan felt that this development work appeared to not only be detrimental to important historical and cultural sites in Tibet but, as a side effect, also threatened to gradually dilute Tibetan culture.

“I noticed that Serthar likely used to be very Tibetan but these hotels were being built by people who don’t speak Tibetan. And then you also find that there are stalls beginning to appear selling Chinese goods.

“I spoke to my driver about this and he said that the Chinese government will tell people go to Tibet, set up a life there, set up a farm, grow your own crops. It can be a fresh start away from the big cities and if you choose to live away from the cities you can have a good life.

“For example, there are now thousands and thousands of Han Chinese citizens living in Qinghai province. They go there, build a house and they settle there. Over time this leads to the place becoming more Han than Tibetan. Perhaps many years ago it was 10 percent Han but then it grows to 20 percent, 40 percent, 60 percent. I think the government wants to convert Eastern Tibet to make the Han population the majority. Not to eliminate the Tibetans but maybe make eastern Tibet 60 percent Han Chinese and 40 percent Tibetan.

“It is important that people care about this because the local Tibetans don’t seem to have a voice. Many don’t speak English or Mandarin and as the government does all these things it has very large impact on their lives. I can appreciate the intentions of the Chinese government in wanting to develop the area, but the huge and irreparable cost in terms of undermined cultural heritage seems to be something that the officials do not fully appreciate.

“Something very valuable is being lost here. But no one talks about it and nothing is being done about it.”

Steve Shaw is a UK-based journalist. His work has been published in New Internationalist, Global Comment, The Tibet Post International and Warscapes magazine. He is currently a news reporter for Archant media, publisher of the UK’s biggest selling regional newspaper, Eastern Daily Press.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Cosmo_R » 09 Aug 2017 02:52

kumarn wrote:http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/what-if-we-enter-kalapani-kashmirchina-to-india/amp_articleshow/59972866.cms

What if we enter Kalapani, Kashmir: China to India

This time an official.


Same question: what if we enter Tibet?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Aug 2017 02:56

UlanBatori wrote:This is where Kaveri engine poses a winning advantage!

Dr Strange from Ulanbator has finally managed to enslave Dormamu through his time travel spell of going into future :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 09 Aug 2017 03:13

Lisa wrote:


For those in the know a question. In the video in the link above at 0:22 appox the ship appears to be empty/very high in the water. Is this normal?

Thank you in advance.



I think you are talking about the semi-submersible lifter. It looks weird but is designed to submerge underneath ships and then lift them.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 03:57

ArjunPandit wrote:blahblahblah

Diss us old-timers @ ur peril :twisted:
Read the spec. If I give it away I may get banned. Already a very near thing at the Pompous **** Forum, but I deleted my post just b4 the Polis saw it :eek: :shock:


Rudradev
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 09 Aug 2017 04:10

^^ He isn't

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/0 ... ing-241409

He is waving his hands in the air and making solid noise.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 04:17

:shock: The other thing is whether Eleven will send Couriers to Pyongyang. May greatly accentuate cheen's stature in Dunia, but Eleven's own position may become quite shaky as it would be a total capitulation to capitalist imperialists after 58 years of resistance. Sending troops to please the Yankees? Then again, waiting for American boots to trample on Pyongyang does not seem so good either. The way this is going, US options are coming down. Maybe DT will order the entire USAF, USN, SAC and all, to mosey on over and demolish anything that moves near DMZ, the missile sites and Pyongyang in a pre-emptive attack. Only hope for Seoul.

The other option (heroic and soosai for Eleven) is for Chinese troops to land in DMZ and north Seoul as human shields. Problems a) will SoKo agree? b) Will PeeAllSee leave? c) Will NoKo care b4 pulling the trigger on the artillery barrage?

In all of these, I see no reason for exercises involving Chinese long-range bombers. THAT could only be for ONE reason: fire at the US fleet.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Aug 2017 04:24

UlanBatori wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:blahblahblah

Diss us old-timers @ ur peril :twisted:
Read the spec. If I give it away I may get banned. Already a very near thing at the Pompous **** Forum, but I deleted my post just b4 the Polis saw it :eek: :shock:

ignorant/poor me can't even think of dissing legends like you (i mean it). Just that your posts are so ahead that its difficult for non illuminati.
Regarding Kaveri, a noobie like me will think, where's Kaveri, when's it going to get mated with Tejas. No matter what safran/snecma says its very unlikely before MLU of Mk1A1.
Coming back to this thread, by that time Chinese would have huge inventory of manned fighter jets and UAVs. For all we know, someone might be already thinking of weaponising DJI phantom with a grenade or two, just to cause pin prick. Not dhoti shivering but that's very plausible and we will have to deal with it. Assuming that they will be idiots will be a bigger idiocy on our side.
Last edited by ArjunPandit on 09 Aug 2017 04:33, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Aug 2017 04:30


UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 05:49

Those are sheer class! Need to post them far & wide, esp. this one:

“It seems India doesn’t understand the gravity of the situation. Their army has transgressed and we won’t take it lightly. Our newspapers are ready with more articles and we will be launching them one by one. Ab Dangal Hoga,” wrote Chin Chin Chu, a senior editor at China Daily.

A close door meeting between top Chinese military officials was underway this morning to discuss as to why there no response even after repeated provocation. Some said that besides the obvious association with everything Chinese being fake

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 05:51

But they missed the obvious: Send Dar-ka-butt up there and she will cause an avalanche on the Chinese side.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 09 Aug 2017 06:10

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 977992.cms
How India, US and Japan can spoil Beijing's party
By R Sriram, ET Bureau|Aug 09, 2017, 01.59 AM IST
Great empires and countries often fall victim to hubris. The realisation that you are on top of things can sometimes make you act recklessly in conflict. The mighty Americans experienced this in Vietnam and a few decades before that Nazi Germany, tried to grab everything in Europe only to suffer the most humiliating of defeats. The Turks in the 17th century, when they tried to stretch their hands to grab the most important of all prizes, Vienna, and the British Empire’s short-lived excursion into Afghanistan are examples of reverses suffered by great powers when their ambitions tried to defy reason and logic.
Modern-day China is in a similar situation. Two years ago, the Middle Kingdom’s problems were only economic. There was a dispute with Japan and another dispute over islands with South-east Asian nations but that was it. China’s biggest problem then was to stop its economy from sliding into middle to low single digits and accomplish the great triple transition, the shift from investment to consumption, manufacturing to services and exports to domestic market.
The fate of that transition today still hangs in balance but China has unwisely managed to get itself embroiled in some ugly geopolitical disputes. What is more, these disputes are with powerful countries who have the ability to hurt its interests.
Whether China has done its due to overconfidence, hubris or just plain recklessness is unclear but what is clear is that China’s ambitious attempt to project power only tells a part of the story. It hides a problem, a problem that is likely to get bigger the more intransigent its leaders get.
Let’s examine more on this issue. North Korea is a festering sore with the US continuously haranguing China for its inaction in tackling the nuclear menace. The spat over South China sea islands continues and may get uglier. The Trump administration may be more assertive in dealing with Chinese infractions than the Obama national security state department team and that is not good news for Xi Jinping.
The biggest problem of them all is the stand-off with India in Doklam. China’s intrusion into the Bhutan-Tibet-India trijunction, its desire to build a road and get access to the commanding heights overlooking the Siliguri corridor is an example of the assertive politics that Chinese leaders and generals are willing to play. In 1962, China took advantage of Indian weakness and the foolish Forward Policy brinkmanship of the Jawaharlal Nehru-Krishna Menon duo to quickly teach India a lesson. In Doklam, as things stand today, we don’t know what will happen. Military experts and writers have talked about India’s strategic ground advantage and its tough stance and how China could be forced into looking for a face-saver given that India is not backing down. There could a war. Even if there is, is India better prepared than it was in 1962? We will never know for sure till it happens, but there is some evidence to believe that we are.
But let’s not talk of military action. Let’s look at trade where China is vulnerable and we are not. If China continues to be intransigent, can India hit back at investments and trade? Can India show that it can hurt China by stopping, reversing investments and clamping down on imports? This, to some extent, is already happening and it should know that trade is its soft underbelly and that India can hit where it hurts.
.....

Gautam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 09 Aug 2017 06:22

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ey-2017-08
AUG 8, 2017 8
Calling the Chinese Bully’s Bluff
Brahma Chellaney
NEW DELHI – The more power China has accumulated, the more it has attempted to achieve its foreign-policy objectives with bluff, bluster, and bullying. But, as its Himalayan border standoff with India’s military continues, the limits of this approach are becoming increasingly apparent.
The current standoff began in mid-June, when Bhutan, a close ally of India, discovered the People’s Liberation Army trying to extend a road through Doklam, a high-altitude plateau in the Himalayas that belongs to Bhutan, but is claimed by China. India, which guarantees tiny Bhutan’s security, quickly sent troops and equipment to halt the construction, asserting that the road – which would overlook the point where Tibet, Bhutan, and the Indian state of Sikkim meet – threatened its own security.
Since then, China’s leaders have been warning India almost daily to back down or face military reprisals. China’s defense ministry has threatened to teach India a “bitter lesson,” vowing that any conflict would inflict “greater losses” than the Sino-Indian War of 1962, when China invaded India during a Himalayan border dispute and inflicted major damage within a few weeks. Likewise, China’s foreign ministry has unleashed a torrent of vitriol intended to intimidate India into submission. Despite all of this, India’s government, led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, has kept its cool, refusing to respond to any Chinese threat, much less withdraw its forces. As China’s warmongering has continued, its true colors have become increasingly vivid. It is now clear that China is attempting to use psychological warfare (“psywar”) to advance its strategic objectives – to “win without fighting,” as the ancient Chinese military theorist Sun Tzu recommended.
China has waged its psywar against India largely through disinformation campaigns and media manipulation, aimed at presenting India – a raucous democracy with poor public diplomacy – as the aggressor and China as the aggrieved party. Chinese state media have been engaged in eager India-bashing for weeks. China has also employed “lawfare,” selectively invoking a colonial-era accord, while ignoring its own violations – cited by Bhutan and India – of more recent bilateral agreements. For the first few days of the standoff, China’s psywar blitz helped it dominate the narrative. But, as China’s claims and tactics have come under growing scrutiny, its approach has faced diminishing returns. In fact, from a domestic perspective, China’s attempts to portray itself as the victim – claiming that Indian troops had illegally entered Chinese territory, where they remain – has been distinctly damaging, provoking a nationalist backlash over the failure to evict the intruders.
As a result, President Xi Jinping’s image as a commanding leader, along with the presumption of China’s regional dominance, is coming under strain, just months before the critical 19th National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). And it is difficult to see how Xi could turn the situation around.
Despite China’s overall military superiority, it is scarcely in a position to defeat India decisively in a Himalayan war, given India’s fortified defenses along the border. Even localized hostilities at the tri-border area would be beyond China’s capacity to dominate, because the Indian army controls higher terrain and has greater troop density. If such military clashes left China with so much as a bloodied nose, as happened in the same area in 1967, it could spell serious trouble for Xi at the upcoming National Congress.
But, even without actual conflict, China stands to lose. Its confrontational approach could drive India, Asia’s most important geopolitical “swing state,” firmly into the camp of the United States, China’s main global rival. It could also undermine its own commercial interests in the world’s fastest-growing major economy, which sits astride China’s energy-import lifeline.
......

Gautam


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