Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 06:57

Again, ppl, I wonder if it is possible to get more anecdotes such as Rezang La and the other battle (Major Avestha), and a few others, plus SOME insights into the Chinese expeditionary forces into Korea, Vietnam and Tibet/India? I think there are HUGE untold stories there. The Chinese stories are going to be of inhuman suffering, disease, cruelty and death by the wayside, long before they got massacred in their massive attacks against thinly-manned positions. The trek through the Himalayas (two ways!) inside a very few weeks, must have been an utter nightmare. This is a fab opportunity to put these out in the light, and change the dhoti-shivering narratives of 1962, once and for all. Who know, it might lead to a proper revolution in China as well, when today's iklaute bete get some reality lessons on history, on what to expect from their Dear Leaders.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Atmavik » 09 Aug 2017 07:24

UlanBatori wrote:Again, ppl, I wonder if it is possible to get more anecdotes such as Rezang La and the other battle (Major Avestha), and a few others, plus SOME insights into the Chinese expeditionary forces into Korea, Vietnam and Tibet/India? I think there are HUGE untold stories there. The Chinese stories are going to be of inhuman suffering, disease, cruelty and death by the wayside, long before they got massacred in their massive attacks against thinly-manned positions. The trek through the Himalayas (two ways!) inside a very few weeks, must have been an utter nightmare. This is a fab opportunity to put these out in the light, and change the dhoti-shivering narratives of 1962, once and for all. Who know, it might lead to a proper revolution in China as well, when today's iklaute bete get some reality lessons on history, on what to expect from their Dear Leaders.


The great Leap Forward saw 50 million civilians perish. you can guess abt the military casualties.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2017 07:27

Yak Herder there are many tales of great valour - my most recent read was 1962 - the war that wasn't by shiv kunal verma

But it is (for me) very difficult to bring out those tales of valour without also pointing out the failures of leadership where decisions were taken after which every man knew that he would face certain death. Many soldiers and junior leadership knew that the decisions were wrong, Going against those decisions would have been mutiny. It was very literally a case of "Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die" The only choice they were given was the certainty of death despite understanding exactly what was needed to be done to turn the tables. Given the right equipment and logistics Indian forces will whup Chinese ass and make them suck their noodles up from their backsides.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 08:06

Hmmm! Maybe time to get Evil 6th coujin to stir and write an article on this topic.

Ultimately, the Chinese used sheer treachery against a fundamentally friendly country. Nothing so great there. Indians have always viewed, (and still view for the most part) the Chinese people as being as civilized and hard-working as ourselves, and as exploited by colonialists and invaders. Of all the nations of the world, *****ONLY**** India has such a positive and empathetic view of Chinese.

So treachery "won" a few battles by sheer shock, and the ill-prepared Indian Border Police and hastily-sent Army units withdrew ASAP to regroup. The Chinese used poor weather to attack, and as soon as the weather started clearing they ran back as fast as their commie legs could carry them, causing huge losses among their own on the way back. Indians, true to our ancient grace, held our fire, did not order the Air Force to massacre the fleeing commies.

This in a nutshell is the story of the war, I refuse to accept any of the minor details on leadership and petty jealosies between pampered, mostly nepotist-appointed, top officers and baboon.

For one thing, India faced a bitter and hate-filled, murderous enemy on West and East. So all the bullets and guns we had were allotted to face that, the northern border just had a few people posted to rescue errant tourists and climbers and goats. It was there that the treacherous reptile army attacked under cover of blizzards and night.

V.K. Krishna Menon, as I have heard, was not an experienced tough street-fighter who rose through the ranks of Indian elections. AFAIK, not a freedom-fighter who had gone to jail and got beaten up. He was a grad student in some snooty British college (which probably means an excellent scholastic record, snooty family in Malloostan. Apparently JN called up his old professor in Bilayat and asked him if he had any good desi ishtudent to recommend who could make speeches in Angreji - and that's how VKKM got the job of defense minister!!!! I don't know if this is true but if it is, it says a lot about the way senior posts were filled. Makes Rah-ul- Gandy look highly qualified by comparison.

But forget those dummies. The legends that future generations must learn and get inspired, are those of the individual Indian soldier. The term "world-class" does not even begin to describe him. And today, that is what the Chinese need explained to them real slowly. Today's soldiers are every bit as tough and brave - and far better led and equipped.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 08:57

The window of opportunity, if the Cheens want to mount a limited or surprise or multiple parallel attacks is fast closing. Anybody who has visited Sikkim area would agree that fighting war after September (I would say mid September) is near impossible.

Third or fourth week of August is the latest by which any offensives can be mounted by Cheeni. What are the possible surprises they could Spring on us. On a normal day doing we are sitting pretty interns of conventional infantry and limited artillery fight with limited air support, due to terrain advantages in most areas and air support advantages where terrain doesn't favor us such as Tawang.

What can surprise us? what are PLA strengths that they are likely to rely more on given mountain warfare is not their forte?

1. Logistics network. Until conflict starts, it can help them mass troops just days before if they can be acclimatised elsewhere. Are there other areas (other than Lhasa) that are 2 day train ride away from southern Tibet where they could be acclimatised for high altitude?
Can they move hundreds of artillery guns in a few days and surprise us?

2. Rocket force. I am not talking expensive terrain hugging long range cruise missiles or ballistic missiles that can be mistaken for noooks. Just simple area saturation rockets for area neutralisation and short range missiles with vertical descent capabilities for select high value targets. Indian equivalents would be Pinaka and Brahmos which are already in Easter theatre I believe. How many of these area saturation missile batteries they can move close to the border quickly?

3. Long range artillery and in places where terrain allows it, tank heavy mechanised forces. Shivji has already identified the areas where they could try this. They have huge number of artillery and near unlimited supply of ammunition thanks to their MIC.

4. Weaponised drones for constant recon and psychological force multiplier effect, even if they aren't accurate. Can Indian radars catch them. Can we shoot them down if hundreds of them are sent to saturate us? Would our fighters flying up to do target practice on these drones be vulnerable to cheeni SAMs? Will we be spending more money in destroying them than they are worth?

5. What about any high tech gadget giri such as laser weapons that might be tested on the border.

6. Full scale cyber warfare and domestic sabotage of critical railway lines by naxals and Paki agents just before or during a conflict.

7. Any Cheeni special forces that can clandestinely intrude and do sabotage? India isn't lacking in this regard but this is a two way game.

Recent indications are that Chinese are creepingly increasing troop levels near borders (still less than India) and are building fortified bunkers at several places. Was even mentioned in one article posted here. That seems like a defensive move in case if we breach through LaC and thunder down Lhasa.

The next 3 weeks (Max 4) need the utmost vigilence and preparations. They may be forced by their own rhetoric to do some mischief in order to ensure that their threats will have credibility in the future. We have pushed a bully to the corner with the whole street watching. The bully is unlikely to go quietly and lose face as the local dada.

BTW, met quite a few professionals in Bengaluru, who despite being very much able to buy genuinely branded items, bragged how they are buying cheap knockoffs through AliExpress - Alibaba ecommerce venture that directly ships products from China through post! It's not clear if proper custom declaration is done for small items. So much for boycott of Chinese goods. Only one in 10 is making some attempt such as buying Samsung instead of Redmi or One Plus phones.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby asgkhan » 09 Aug 2017 09:13

More Cheeni drivel from idiots with sewage water for brains.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017- ... 509429.htm

Commentary: India must not flirt with disaster
Source: Xinhua| 2017-08-08 20:40:42|Editor: Zhou Xin


BEIJING, Aug. 8 (Xinhua) -- India should underestimate neither China's determination nor its capacity to defend its sovereignty and national interests.
India sent troops into China in June and has maintained a military presence in the Doklam area ever since, an offence to China's sovereignty and a great risk to regional stability.
Doklam is recognized by both India and the international community as part of Tibet Autonomous Region and Chinese sovereign territory.
If there is any unsettled border issue between China and Bhutan then that is an issue between China and Bhutan. It has nothing to do with India. China respects Bhutan as an independent sovereign state and resents India's attempt to turn it into a de facto protectorate.
As a great regional power, India has a duty to act in a more seemly manner rather than recklessly invading its neighbors -- weak or powerful as they may be -- based on childish assumptions and foolhardy speculations.
The bottom line in international justice is that no country may pursue its security at the cost of another's sovereignty.
Despite China's demonstrable goodwill, India has nothing but words. Its External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj said India would "keep engaging with China to resolve the dispute," and "patience, control on comments and diplomacy can resolve problems."
The truth is that India has not only failed to withdraw its troops but continues to make eccentric demands and is not looking for a resolution.
As of the end of July, more than 40 Indian border troops remained in China. India complains about China's new roads, but it too has been building roads and a large number of armed Indian personnel are massed in the area.
There are not many signs that India is seeking peace. If India is sincere about peace, its troops should never have invaded China in the first place, and ought to immediately and unconditionally get back to their own side of the border.
India's thinking is, at best, wishful: China will eventually back down.
If the situation were not so serious, it would be laughable. China cannot "back down" because China is not in the wrong. It would be both foolish and dangerous for China to allow India to think that it can keep chipping away at Chinese national interests.
The Indian side is deluded if it thinks that China is about to negotiate with an invading force while its national territorial integrity remains infringed indefinitely.
To date, Chinese armed forces have shown the utmost goodwill and restraint. But restraint has limits and with every day that passes the tether shortens.
India must not underestimate China. The People's Liberation Army was built to safeguard peace and to protect national sovereignty, security and development interests.
China, eventually, will do whatever is required to safeguard its interests.
India must dispel all illusions and avoid disastrous consequences.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby asgkhan » 09 Aug 2017 09:16

Characteristic silence from Japan / Vietnam. These are the two countries who can do a savage bukkake on Cheen. All this sun-tzu sh!tty quotes will not hide the fact that apart from empty rhetoric and verbal diarrorhea, these middle kingdom monkeys have nothing to show for.

Time for India to send a batch of Brahmos and donate a corvette / destroyer armed with the same to Vietnam.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Aug 2017 09:22

^^^ agreed.... Yudh Abhyas 2017 is between Sept 14-27... I'd say the window is from now to Sept second week...

Now the thinking on what the Chinese would do is useful... but even more would be what out-of-the-box and asymmetric things can India do?

1. Major Chinese cities are fortified with choke points (cleverly hidden as toll plaza sometimes) which could easily be exploited from inside... as they are mostly to prevent Tiananmen square like citizens pouring in from the countryside....side note - hacking toll ways in China can cause multi-day traffic jams and choke the city, but there are even more clever ways that that...

2. China is in a particularly vulnerable state internally - fake news (need not be electronic) can cut both ways... there are several pressure groups that could be incentivized to create internal unrest...

3. Offer free residency in India to any free Tibet citizen that shows up at the Indo-Tibetan border :mrgreen:

4. Start an NGO to get Kailash liberated from them gawdless commie hands! :rotfl:

Anyway... those are contributions from my demented brain on libations... don't hesitate to participate... enough with what they will do!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 09:25

Xinghua is generally more nuanced with words than the sabre rattling gobar times and is taken as the official government voice. While they are now literally begging India - you are a great regional power, act in a manner that is befitting your stature, don't invade us, etc., they line they are telling domestic audience is that India has intruded I to sovereign Chinese territory.

They cant afford to do nothing now. These things take a life of their own. Next 4 weeks are super critical and to be doubly sure, we should pull a surprise and buy off few hundred acres of land on Dolan plateau, make it Indian territory and stay there during winter just like Siachen, but with more manageable supply lines.
Last edited by schinnas on 09 Aug 2017 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 09 Aug 2017 09:28

schinnas wrote:7. Any Cheeni special forces that can clandestinely intrude and do sabotage? India isn't lacking in this regard but this is a two way game.

Recent indications are that Chinese are creepingly increasing troop levels near borders (still less than India) and are building fortified bunkers at several places. Was even mentioned in one article posted here. That seems like a defensive move in case if we breach through LaC and thunder down Lhasa.

The next 3 weeks (Max 4) need the utmost vigilence and preparations. They may be forced by their own rhetoric to do some mischief in order to ensure that their threats will have credibility in the future. We have pushed a bully to the corner with the whole street watching. The bully is unlikely to go quietly and lose face as the local dada.


What if China breaches the LaC and claims India did? They are waiting for an excuse to hit us or will they create an excuse to hit us?
Now we do see that the official line tows the Gobar times....

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Hari Seldon » 09 Aug 2017 09:39

I remember seeing Dick Attenborough's Gandhi. Those powerful scenes of aam public zealously participating in making bonfires of expensive Brishit-woven clothes are still fresh in memory.

Would it be so hard for sangh affiliates to organize such in different cities and towns? Will get great traction mind you. And oh-so-televisable too!

Image

Posters asking public to boycott cheeni goods. Helpline numbers to call and tell of they spot fake cheeni goods anywhere in the market whch will then be publicly handed over to police for action etc can go a long way.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Aug 2017 09:46

ramana wrote:Collapse of Red China is what Asia needs. ...

Is there a way to accelerate towards that goal? But then Red China will become democratic China. It could be a bigger threat unless a few outer provinces and illegally occupied Tibet are freed including HK/Macau and with Taiwan as the real China. The runt PRC needs to be be given the moniker of Hanstan. Every thousand mile journey starts with one small step.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2017 09:49

since masking the movement of heavy units in TAR is quite tough due to 6 indian imint sats and perhaps a few more from friendly observers like amrika and japan passing us punter dalal street tips , Cheen has two options

(a) police action, lathi charge like i outlined - very localized and containable fallout even if it heads south with our jawans brawling and hitting them with longer and well oiled lathis

(b) long range missile attack on the venue after staging a fake withdrawal to their camps - this might attract atleast one round of indian arty or air strike on their camp but is still containable and india will likely not open other fronts. sure a few dozen expendable border guards will perish but peking need not fear any mass unrest over that. with any luck news of casualties can be totally suppressed and passed off as avalanche death.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Aug 2017 09:50

I did not post the foo Hu Xijin Predator-in-thief of the Gobar Times video but saw it when it came out...
This one quote from the foo Hu stands out:

"Is the Indian Government like a church" "Leading its citizens in prayer" :rotfl:

Has this foo ever been to India - leading all the citizens of India in prayer... he is incapable of organizing a dharna in my municipality!
See the contempt he has for religion and the Indian state all in one separation of his reptilian brain!
Shows the utter inbred single child illiteracy of the Editor (Predator-in-thief) bandit spokesperson issuing dosas for 50cents on his pimperial majesty Eleven Gin Peng. Who the fudge does he think he is?

The only correct thing in the entire video is the end: "What a curious country"

Luttwak has it right - fed on sun tzu and 36 strategyms bs means it is the advent of 'Chinese Autism" :evil:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Aug 2017 09:50

Liu wrote:it is reported that chinese citizens in india now start retreating.

What does that mean? These Chinese citizens retreat to ... where? Please do expand. Don't be so frugal spilling your pearls of wisdom.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Aug 2017 09:53

Pulikeshi ji, this one is a fu manchu(rian candidate).

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Aug 2017 09:55

^^^ Love the silence of the Indian Govt - the Foo is opening his mouth and leaving no doubt in the mind of anyone paying attention :rotfl:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sanjaykumar » 09 Aug 2017 09:58

Is this Tibet Autonomous Region akin to Azad Kashmir? Please consider the words when posting. The Indian media are just as bad.

To declare Tibet autonomous can only be an Orwellian invention. China's nomenclature has no bearing on reality yet Indians subscribe to it.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 10:05

Iyersan,
A part of me wants India to attack first if we deem an attack imminent. We have big advantage now and first movers get the advantage in a well planned pre emptive strike.

We need not worry about China firing first because that will enable us to escalate and do a larger pre emptive strike. It is the Chinese that should worry if India will claim first attack by them to launch a massive pre emptive strike to take out all their radars, runways, and nearby missile batteries and bridges. They may as well throw in the towel after that than fight.

Numerical superiority of tanks, artillery or planes mean zilch in front of coordination, tactics and execution. See Arab Israel war of 1967.

India should not shy away from a pre emptive strike as there are lots of advantages to the first movers here. Nobody gives a $hit about international opinion ion as these 5hings cannot be convincingly proved. We can always claim credible intelligence and that Chen fired first bullet at us.

Chatrapati Shivani Maharaj would launch a pre emptive strike.

While I am not war mongering, I humbly propose we seriously consider it. Because

1. A conflict seems unavoidable.
2. First mover has advantages, especially if it is those who hold high ground (moral and terrain).
3. Nobody in ASEAN or west will kowtow to China in this. Every nation except for Pukis and North Korea is hoping for China to get humiliated in a conflict. We just need iron clad guarantees from all P5 except China that that will support us during ceasefire and chai biscuit sessions at UN.

Added later:
The moment we have credible intelligence that Cheeni is doing any offensive action or firing it's missiles towards us, within few seconds our massive pre emptive strike should be launched. Our planes should be in Cheeni airspace before any of their long range missiles enter India.

It is doable as long range ballistic missiles would take several minutes to reach us and we can (with inputs from friends) track it in real time..even watch those getting launched.

For our forward airbases in high alert with planes loaded and fueled, it should take few minutes for pilots to scramble for takeoff.

Our plans for pre emptive strike should be down to a t, but we shouldn't launch it until Cheeni makes the slightest first move. It may not be truly pre emptive at that point but the speed of our detection and response should make Cheeni pla run back crying to eleven.
Last edited by schinnas on 09 Aug 2017 10:22, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 10:15

I am grateful to China for making a big deal out of an issue where they are at fault. This is a lesson to our MEA and policy makers. We should have taken a much harder stance on Karakoram highway.

We should start demanding that China pull out of PoK and GB and dismantle Karakoram highway built on Indian territory without our permission. We should issue a statement every week advising caution to those near Karakoram highway that we retain right to dismantle it and giving ultimatums to Pakistan and China to comply.

Let Republic TV and other media call Cheeni leaders as liars and warn them to remove their invasive troops from Akshai Chin.

It is atrocious that the victim (India) is keeping quite while the at-fault thug (China) is crying wolf.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 09 Aug 2017 10:22

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/arti ... is-unclear
India Takes a Bold Approach in Border Standoff With China, but the Endgame Is Unclear
Anubhav Gupta Monday, Aug. 7, 2017
The border standoff between Indian and Chinese troops on the remote Doklam area in the Himalayas is approaching the two-month mark with no end in sight. Simultaneously egged on and hemmed in by nationalistic fervor at home, neither government can afford to back down, making escalation a real risk. India’s national security adviser, Ajit Doval, met with China’s state councilor, Yang Jiechi, and President Xi Jinping at the end of July, but the two sides failed to reach an agreement to quell the border row.
The most serious dispute between India and China in decades, the standoff at Doklam represents a shift in ties between Asia’s two primary powers, with India acting more forcefully to counter Chinese influence and activities in South Asia. New Delhi’s bold decision to confront Chinese troops at Doklam—an area near India’s so-called tri-border with China and Bhutan—surprised and angered Beijing. While India may have succeeded in standing up to China in the short run, the endgame remains unclear and fraught with danger. Even if a peaceful resolution is achieved quickly, the China-India relationship, complicated under the best of circumstances, has entered a new, tenser stage.
New Delhi’s actions are noteworthy—and this standoff unlike previous border incidents between India and China—because India does not actually have a direct claim to Doklam, which is instead territory claimed by both China and Bhutan. On June 16, Chinese engineers started building a road in Doklam. Two days later, on Bhutan’s behalf, Indian troops crossed India’s border to stop the construction work. Around 300 troops from India and China have been facing off since. China has demanded that Indian troops withdraw first, while India has called for joint withdrawal.
Other analysts, including Ankit Panda and Manoj Joshi, have written at length about the complicated border dispute, the contradictory language in an 1890 colonial border convention that gives rise to the competing claims, and the various interests involved for China, Bhutan and India. All sides have legitimate claims and concerns. The critical question going forward, however, is not how to untangle history, but how to smooth tensions to avoid conflict.
The standoff is the culmination of rising tensions between India and China over the past two years. Bilateral ties under Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Xi were clouded by mistrust early, after Xi’s inaugural visit to India in September 2014 was overshadowed by Chinese incursions into disputed territory, and they have only soured further since then. Three years later, with another border crisis brewing, Modi and Xi chose not to have a formal bilateral meeting at the G-20 Summit in Germany last month.
India’s deliberate shift toward the United States and Japan under Modi has confirmed Beijing’s worst suspicions about New Delhi’s regional intentions. Through its “Act East” policy, India has enhanced its engagement with East and Southeast Asia, even echoing U.S. concerns about the South China Sea in public statements. This has led to a hostile attitude in China.
On the other hand, China’s growing influence in South Asia, especially its close partnership with Pakistan, has increasingly agitated India. China has provoked India with a flurry of maritime activity in the Indian Ocean region, as well as with its huge China-Pakistan Economic Corridor infrastructure initiative that crosses through territory claimed by India. India was disconcerted when China, on Pakistan’s request, blocked India’s attempts to have the United Nations sanction Masood Azhar, the leader of the terrorist outfit Jaish-e-Mohammad. Additionally, China’s blocking of India’s bid to join the Nuclear Suppliers Group has hardened the view in New Delhi that Beijing is actively constraining India’s rise.
India has reciprocated by openly bucking China over the past year. In December, Indian President Pranab Mukherjee met with the Dalai Lama, angering Beijing. In April, India allowed the Dalai Lama to visit a part of the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh that China also claims. In both cases, the Chinese were incensed. Moving beyond symbolism, in May, India boycotted China’s Belt and Road Forum, a setback for China’s flagship regional initiative. Confronting Chinese troops in Doklam can be seen as New Dlehi’s latest move in a concerted effort to stand up to Beijing, even on controversial topics where India has tread lightly in the past.
The Doklam crisis is playing out against a combustible backdrop. While neither Modi nor Xi can afford a military confrontation, backing down does not serve either leader politically. A major Party Congress in China this fall may incentivize Xi to eschew compromise. It is possible, therefore, that India and China may not reach a resolution until heavy snow makes Doklam inhospitable in the fall. The longer the crisis continues, however, the greater the chances for an accident or confrontation.
A military confrontation would be devastating to both countries, but a deep and long-standing political rift would be equally problematic given the strategic anxieties in play. Sustained, long-term hostility would be harmful for India, China and the region at large.
While a ready solution may not be available, there are three immediate priorities for managing the crisis. First, both governments and militaries must continue to exercise extreme restraint at Doklam to ensure it does not turn into a live confrontation.
Second, diplomats and officials on both sides have to work to tone down the hostile rhetoric currently being leveled, while avoiding incidents that could raise tensions further and make it difficult for the two sides to reach a compromise without losing face.
Third, the continuation of diplomatic talks is critical. China initially declared that it would only consider talks once Indian troops withdrew unilaterally. Thankfully, Beijing has since moderated that stance, and diplomats are hard at work to find a mutually acceptable way to resolve the crisis. Ajit Doval’s trip to China was an important start in cooling tensions. It is critical that both countries continue engaging at the highest level.
......

Gautam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Aug 2017 10:29



Enjoy the comedy - but very educational for those not tuned to internal China issues...

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby yensoy » 09 Aug 2017 10:35

g.sarkar wrote:
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/arti ... is-unclear
India Takes a Bold Approach in Border Standoff With China, but the Endgame Is Unclear
Anubhav Gupta Monday, Aug. 7, 2017
The most serious dispute between India and China in decades, the standoff at Doklam represents a shift in ties between Asia’s two primary powers, with India acting more forcefully to counter Chinese influence and activities in South Asia. New Delhi’s bold decision to confront Chinese troops at Doklam—an area near India’s so-called tri-border with China and Bhutan—surprised and angered Beijing. While India may have succeeded in standing up to China in the short run, the endgame remains unclear and fraught with danger.
...
New Delhi’s actions are noteworthy—and this standoff unlike previous border incidents between India and China—because India does not actually have a direct claim to Doklam, which is instead territory claimed by both China and Bhutan.
...
All sides have legitimate claims and concerns. The critical question going forward, however, is not how to untangle history, but how to smooth tensions to avoid conflict.
...
India’s deliberate shift toward the United States and Japan under Modi has confirmed Beijing’s worst suspicions about New Delhi’s regional intentions. Through its “Act East” policy, India has enhanced its engagement with East and Southeast Asia, even echoing U.S. concerns about the South China Sea in public statements. This has led to a hostile attitude in China.
...
India has reciprocated by openly bucking China over the past year. In December, Indian President Pranab Mukherjee met with the Dalai Lama, angering Beijing. In April, India allowed the Dalai Lama to visit a part of the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh that China also claims. In both cases, the Chinese were incensed. Moving beyond symbolism, in May, India boycotted China’s Belt and Road Forum, a setback for China’s flagship regional initiative. Confronting Chinese troops in Doklam can be seen as New Dlehi’s latest move in a concerted effort to stand up to Beijing, even on controversial topics where India has tread lightly in the past.
......

Gautam


Wow what's this author doing in some random mag/blog with limited readership? I am sure The Hindu would have a great spot for him. They love self-goal scoring types. Absolute stands are only for the Gobar times, Xinhua and the like which have that absolute privilege.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 09 Aug 2017 10:55

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-allison-china-war-20170808-story.html

China's ready for war ― against the U.S. if necessary
Graham Allison


The NoKo situation is the main gravitas pulling in the chini military formations. They will have nothing on the Indian border except for the rump units they have now. Not only geography limits their logistics on the Indian border but geopolitics too.

They will scream and yell but they won't fight on our border, I am certain of it now. No mass troop movements, no probing by aircraft, nothing except hot air from the Global Times.

On their Eastern seaboard, there is a ramp up of troops along the NoKo border and mass formations of ships and aircraft.

If and when we roll into Tibet, the breakthrough of their thin lines will be so quick and complete that it will be stunning to all those who dhoti-shivered for ages by visions of chini human waves and logistics. The chini numbers are simply not there and PLA re-enforcements won't be coming for weeks and if NoKo kicks off they won't be coming at all.

The timing is perfect for us to go blue Shiva. To go Destroyer.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby asgkhan » 09 Aug 2017 11:06

How are supply lines fed ? Is there a movement and activity on inventory of food/weapons/water and cold weather gear fill up ? Once the passes shut down, how can we be sure that these sun-tzu quoting noodle brains will not occupy the heights and pull off a Kargil redux ?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Paul » 09 Aug 2017 11:16

Vikram Sood‏ @Vikram_Sood now

1962 India China & Cuban Missile crises same time. Today DPRK missile crisis & India-China tension same time. Both times US preoccupied

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Paul » 09 Aug 2017 11:19

Army Moves Troops of Sukna-Based 33 Corps to India-China Border


https://www.thequint.com/india/2017/08/ ... ocialshare

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 09 Aug 2017 11:23

asgkhan wrote:How are supply lines fed ? Is there a movement and activity on inventory of food/weapons/water and cold weather gear fill up ? Once the passes shut down, how can we be sure that these sun-tzu quoting noodle brains will not occupy the heights and pull off a Kargil redux ?



Yes salami slicing. Winter hits, they start moving into areas where we are not to create fait accompli on the ground.

Even more reason take up their war rhetoric with an offensive even if they are just jawboning.

When we hit, Gen. Liu in Lhasa will be very surprised: "Holy clap! The Yindoos actually attacked. Center says they will never attack. What I do now? Only border guards and Peepuls Armed Police. Good for breaking monks heads. No good against giant Sikhs and Jats. Holy shit, we get KILLED!"

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby asgkhan » 09 Aug 2017 11:31

List of Cheeni media on Internet

China Daily
People's Daily - http://search.people.com.cn/language/en ... Result.jsp
Global Times - http://search.globaltimes.cn/QuickSearc ... txt=doklam
China Press - Chinese junk language
Shanghai Daily - http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/sl ... txt=doklam
Ming Pao - Chinese junk language
Guangming Daily - http://searchs.gmw.cn/gmsearch/enindex/search.html
Sing Tao Daily - No Search option
South China Morning Post - No search option http://www.scmp.com/frontpage/international
Epoch Times - http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/search/?q=doklam
World Journal - Chinese junk language
Jiefang Daily - Chinese junk language
China Youth Daily - No Search Option
Xinmin Evening News - Chinese junk language
People Liberation Army Daily - http://search.chinamil.com.cn/search/mi ... ch_eng.jsp
Guangzhou Daily - Chinese junk language

More junk news websites can be found at the below link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... s_in_China

I wish there was a way to search for a key word from the consolidated list of websites.
Last edited by asgkhan on 09 Aug 2017 11:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sum » 09 Aug 2017 11:45

chola wrote:http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-allison-china-war-20170808-story.html

China's ready for war ― against the U.S. if necessary
Graham Allison


The NoKo situation is the main gravitas pulling in the chini military formations. They will have nothing on the Indian border except for the rump units they have now. Not only geography limits their logistics on the Indian border but geopolitics too.

They will scream and yell but they won't fight on our border, I am certain of it now. No mass troop movements, no probing by aircraft, nothing except hot air from the Global Times.

On their Eastern seaboard, there is a ramp up of troops along the NoKo border and mass formations of ships and aircraft.

If and when we roll into Tibet, the breakthrough of their thin lines will be so quick and complete that it will be stunning to all those who dhoti-shivered for ages by visions of chini human waves and logistics. The chini numbers are simply not there and PLA re-enforcements won't be coming for weeks and if NoKo kicks off they won't be coming at all.

The timing is perfect for us to go blue Shiva. To go Destroyer.

Chola-sir, am very curious as to why you feel that Chinese havent prepared and have plans for a "2 front war"?

Our knowledge and intel on actual Chinese formations/stratergies is literally zero ( except the Google earth images/SAT-INT) but their thought process is pretty opaque to us. So how are you feeling so confident on this position? How will we manage our logistics lines when we "roll into" Tibet?

Didnt the Pakis say the same for us when they invaded Kargil that the Indian army was too pre-occupied and worn down and the only supply line was through NH1A which if cut off would mean the Indian supply line was broken and all was lost.

Am just curious about whether you had some insider info on this or just a gut feel

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 11:56

China can be contained longer term by only 2 things now - fear of Allah and America.

Muslims of uighur, Balochistan, GB and PoK and central Asian states can help instill fear of Allah and these pious warriors wouldn't mind getting some.tips from idol worshippers.

America by sharing specific real time intelligence and force multiplier weaponry to it's allies in Asia - India, Vietnamese and Japan specifically can turn the game around. If China can give it's low tech gear at subsidised rates to NoKo and Pakistan to contain Japan, US and India in it's eastern and Western regions, there is no reason why US should act short sighted. Tax Chinese imports to US and use fraction of the money to arm India and Vietnam. Japan can buy what they want. :-)

Also, US has 5x the capability than China in terms of cyber warfare. Only Russia can claim equality with US here. In times of difficulties, US should assist it's allies with few totally untraceable cyber hit jobs and ensure that few critical Cheen satellites stop responding for inexplicable reasons.

All these options cost US lot less money than building and sailing expensive and vulnerable Carrier groups all over pacific, Atlantic and Indian oceans.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 09 Aug 2017 12:11

sum wrote:
chola wrote:http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-allison-china-war-20170808-story.html



The NoKo situation is the main gravitas pulling in the chini military formations. They will have nothing on the Indian border except for the rump units they have now. Not only geography limits their logistics on the Indian border but geopolitics too.

They will scream and yell but they won't fight on our border, I am certain of it now. No mass troop movements, no probing by aircraft, nothing except hot air from the Global Times.

On their Eastern seaboard, there is a ramp up of troops along the NoKo border and mass formations of ships and aircraft.

If and when we roll into Tibet, the breakthrough of their thin lines will be so quick and complete that it will be stunning to all those who dhoti-shivered for ages by visions of chini human waves and logistics. The chini numbers are simply not there and PLA re-enforcements won't be coming for weeks and if NoKo kicks off they won't be coming at all.

The timing is perfect for us to go blue Shiva. To go Destroyer.

Chola-sir, am very curious as to why you feel that Chinese havent prepared and have plans for a "2 front war"?

Our knowledge and intel on actual Chinese formations/stratergies is literally zero ( except the Google earth images/SAT-INT) but their thought process is pretty opaque to us. So how are you feeling so confident on this position? How will we manage our logistics lines when we "roll into" Tibet?

Didnt the Pakis say the same for us when they invaded Kargil that the Indian army was too pre-occupied and worn down and the only supply line was through NH1A which if cut off would mean the Indian supply line was broken and all was lost.

Am just curious about whether you had some insider info on this or just a gut feel



1) look at the geography. Tibet is immensely hard on logistics and from what we can see from satellite, there is nothing that support large numbers of men and aircraft.

2) Then look at the geo-politics of Cheen. Its east coast and its attending issues (Korea, ECS, SCS and Taiwan) are life and death to them, the Himalayas is not. A chini "2 front war" means the US, S. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia and maybe Vietnam on one side. You can't plan for the US alone without all of your forces, never mind the rest of that cast. Nope, their "two-war plan" is pretty much unplannable,

3) Chini strategy is not opaque. We see how they operate when and where they can bring forces to bear. During the same time period as the Doka La standoff, we saw massed aircraft and ship formations in Japanese, Korean and Tawainese EZs. We saw dangerous intercepts of US patrol craft. They are massing troops along the NoKo border. We all know what they are doing in the Spratlies. They like to intimidate and force changes on the ground through intimidation.

We have not seen a single PLAAF aircraft probing our borders. If they deploy such aggressive strategy against the US, Japan and Taiwan then why not do the same against India?

The reason is obvious and clear: they can't bring forces to bear against India because of logistics, geography and geo-politics. It is that simple.

Without forces, they are left with nothing but hot air. Of course, we can dhoti-shiver some more and imagine that hundreds of thousands of PLA are somehow hidden in the barren moonscape of Tibet, fed by some superhuman logistical system. We can choose to disbelieve satellites and other intel and imagine human waves that realistically can't be supplied in Tibet and would be tracked were there any large movements. If we imagine such things then chini hot air is as good a defense as any.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2017 12:37

would it be true to say that tibet at present does not have any oil refinery or oil pipeline from the mainland or central asia ?

armies need fuel , lots of it ... how are the POL storages in tibet kept topped up and are they all replenished by road tankers ?

blow them up or keep it under pressure and that means the ability to field large forces is curtailed badly.

this is a old map.
Image

narth india has maybe 20 oil refineries all the way from punjab to digboi no more than 300km away from where the border is.

sauth and central india have more as backup.

there is no way they can match our oil infra without vast new investment ....

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby DrRatnadip » 09 Aug 2017 13:00

http://www.firstpost.com/india/doka-la- ... 9.html/amp

Part I: Amid New Delhi-Beijing mind games, 'patient' Indian Army braces for long haul

Around fifty days into the India-China border row over Sikkim, the situation at the tri-junction remains tense.

Even as Beijing and New Delhi play mind games, a different kind of contest is unfolding in freezing Doka La, where 250 Indian Army soldiers are facing down 250 troops from China's People's Liberation Army (PLA)

On 2 August, China issued a "fact sheet", claiming India had reduced its troop numbers in Doka La from 400 to 40. India, for once, responded. External affairs minister Sushma Swaraj denied any troop reduction and the foreign ministry backed her up.

Firstpost has learnt that 250 soldiers of the battle-hardened Jat regiment have been stationed at Doka La in two layers. A third layer comprising the Bofors guns — artillery that cut its teeth during the 1999 Kargil War – is primed to strike and pummel the enemy.

India and China have a pact: At the Line of Actual Control (LAC), there must be an equal number of soldiers. Hence, the exact number of troops deployed by either side.

A Chinese defence ministry spokesman boasted on 24 July: "It's easier to shake a mountain than the PLA."

Perhaps the Chinese should have noted what British journalist Edmund Candler wrote of the Jats in his book The Sepoy: “It takes earthquakes and volcanoes to turn a regiment of these hard-bitten men out of a position they have been given to hold."

The “position given” to the Jats to “hold” now is Doka La
. From all indications, it will be very difficult for the PLA to shake the taller Jats from their perch. More so because the terrain favours the Indian Army, which is proficient in mountain warfare.

Fully prepared

The first layer of the Indian Army has six-foot-tall Jats, all of them, with cameras. Which will only make the shorter PLA troops crane their necks upwards even more. Their marching orders are to keep a sharp eye on the enemy and capture their movements. Some of them are familiar with Mandarin. They will also keep their ears open.

If the PLA attempts to make a move, the first wave of Indian soldiers will bear the brunt of the attack but hopefully not before they warn their heavily armed brethren. The soldiers in the second layer have been warned not to lower their guard and come out all guns blazing at any signs of aggression from the enemy camp.

Patience is the buzzword at Doka La. The image that springs to mind is the hidden hand of the Dragon and the alertness of the crouching tiger.

In their tents, the armies grab a quick bite, a sip of water or even a nap. Sleep is always welcome. Anything to distract from the jangling nerves.

The bulk of the Indian Army is only 10 kilometres away from the tri-junction. A Punjabi soldier tells Firstpost: "At Doka La, we're nose-to-nose with the enemy. Barely 250 metres separates us."

The soldier adds that a Black Cat platoon was the first to reach the spot after the border row kicked off. Then the Jat regiment was called in from the base camp at Nathu La. Another journalist backs up this claim, saying he walked right up to the Indian position at Doka La.

“New bunkers are being built. The ground is being mined to preempt the Chinese attack. Machine-gun nests are being placed at strategic points, and soldiers are performing battle drills at least twice a day. But restraint is still the buzzword,”

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby DrRatnadip » 09 Aug 2017 13:05

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/nepal-w ... 979121.cms

Nepal won't take any sides in India-China standoff: Deputy PM

KATHMANDU: Nepal's Deputy Prime Minister Krishna Bahadur Mahara has said his country will not take any sides in the ongoing Sikkim standoff between India and China.
Nepal wants India and China to use "peaceful diplomatic means" to resolve the issue, said Mahara, who is also the Foreign Minister.

"Nepal will not get dragged into this or that side in the border dispute," he told reporters yesterday.
"Some media reports are attempting to drag us in favour of one or the other side, but I want to make it clear that we have not taken any side in this matter," Mahara said.
He said that Prime Minister Sher Bahadur Deuba will pay an official visit to India from August 23 to 27 and necessary preparations are going on for the same.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 09 Aug 2017 13:27

asgkhan wrote:How are supply lines fed ? Is there a movement and activity on inventory of food/weapons/water and cold weather gear fill up ? Once the passes shut down, how can we be sure that these sun-tzu quoting noodle brains will not occupy the heights and pull off a Kargil redux ?
What pass is on your mind?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 09 Aug 2017 13:33

Singha wrote:since masking the movement of heavy units in TAR is quite tough due to 6 indian imint sats and perhaps a few more from friendly observers like amrika and japan passing us punter dalal street tips , Cheen has two options

(a) police action, lathi charge like i outlined - very localized and containable fallout even if it heads south with our jawans brawling and hitting them with longer and well oiled lathis

(b) long range missile attack on the venue after staging a fake withdrawal to their camps - this might attract atleast one round of indian arty or air strike on their camp but is still containable and india will likely not open other fronts. sure a few dozen expendable border guards will perish but peking need not fear any mass unrest over that. with any luck news of casualties can be totally suppressed and passed off as avalanche death.

All this su-su type plan/action for what? What is India's objective? What is China objective?

Lets assume for a moment that these missiles are first rate and that is a big IF. Will firing some missiles killing some Indian troops at Dokala and some Chinese collateral achieve the Chinese objective?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 09 Aug 2017 13:39

schinnas wrote:I am grateful to China for making a big deal out of an issue where they are at fault. This is a lesson to our MEA and policy makers. We should have taken a much harder stance on Karakoram highway.

We should start demanding that China pull out of PoK and GB and dismantle Karakoram highway built on Indian territory without our permission. We should issue a statement every week advising caution to those near Karakoram highway that we retain right to dismantle it and giving ultimatums to Pakistan and China to comply.

Let Republic TV and other media call Cheeni leaders as liars and warn them to remove their invasive troops from Akshai Chin.

It is atrocious that the victim (India) is keeping quite while the at-fault thug (China) is crying wolf.

We mock the Chinese su-su farts on every available opportunity and yet we want to emulate them? Aren't most folks on this forum suggesting that the "all fart and no $hit" Chinese are making a fool of themselves? Frankly, I am a little puzzled.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 13:42

Isn't Indian army based in the near by Nathu La pass throughout the year? Along with satellite and electronic surveillance, doing another Kargil is not possible going forward. Indian army made a mistake once and paid a price for it with blood of its brave soldiers to retake the peaks. We will NEVER repeat the same mistake again.

When we can stay in Siachen with very precarious supply lines and much more difficult living conditions, Dolam plateau is much easier even in winter.

What I am worried about is the minor pinpricks that will inevitably result in when we are a guest at a friend's place for too long. We need to work out a win-win land swap with Bhutan so that Dolam plateau legally becomes Indian territory and then how long we stay there and how we stay there becomes lot more easier to manage. Bhutan also wouldn't want to be in the cross hairs of China and India and I expect would be positive towards a fair and reasonable land swap with India.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 13:49

pankajs wrote:We mock the Chinese su-su farts on every available opportunity and yet we want to emulate them? Aren't most folks on this forum suggesting that the "all fart and no $hit" Chinese are making a fool of themselves? Frankly, I am a little puzzled.


I am saying emulate them in their relentless pursuit of strategic interests. Not in hot air stuff. BTW, Cheen isn't all hot air in South China Sea. They are making hard real manoeuvres on the ground and on the water there.

CPEC passes through Indian territory. And we cannot allow it to happen. So far all we have done is voice some concerns. No hard language and no movement on the ground to block it. When we can send bulldozers to Bhutanese territory to block Chinese construction in a tri-junction area, why can't we do more aggressive and visible stance in GB and PoK? Why not lob few artillery shells on an empty bridge on Karakoram highway to send a message that no construction on Indian territory will be tolerated until a settlement is reached?

We are allowing CPEC to become a fait accompli on Indian soil. Chinese are willing to stick their neck out for a territory in a distant Bhutan which they covet, and which is not even Chinese territory. I cannot reconcile this.

India MUST be firm in taking back PoK and GB and ensuring that we will be ready to use force to stop any construction on the ground that is done without our permission. CPEC can go through Afghanistan and central Asian countries for all we care, but not through our territory in GB and Pak occupied Kashmir, unless its done with our explicit permission and after paying toll hafta to us.


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