Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2017 15:07

>>At this point, we need creative solutions that can ensure H&D of China
>>China would retain its H&D intact

that is a recipe for disaster. retaining its H&D and undies intact after every intrusion is the reason why 100s of intrusions and creeping takeover has happened over the last couple decades.

on the contrary they must lose H&D on this one for our own and bhutan's safety, sure they will be bitter and malicious over it, but arent they already to Nth degree by propping up TSP, proliferation n weapons and missiles ? nobody has done more than china to hurt india .

the time has come to bell the cat one way or another.

they can leave doklam like this . we do not need to spend cycles on making the enemy feel better about losing. we need to spend all time on how to bring hurt to these land grabbers and nibblers.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 10 Aug 2017 15:13

schinnas wrote:
Singha wrote:

How this would benefit India? This will increase Chinese insecurity on its eastern front leaving it less likely for chinese misadventure on its western theatre.

We can have the leash on the dogs throat incase of a unified Korea. Let US bomb NoKo to bits. We will encircle china and stop its expansion...

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 10 Aug 2017 15:14

I cant access Rikaze. Can we check and see whether there is hectic activity in that region of Tibet

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 10 Aug 2017 15:31

Oh absolutely, after all the sh!t they have given us these past 2 months and after all the salami slicing over the decades, them returning with their H&D intact is out of the question.

Once this has passed (war or otherwise), we have to start unmasking the "Peaceful Rise of China" nonsense, at every single opportunity we have. We have to portray the Chinese threat for what it actually is, and start bringing over foreign governments, regimes and bureaucracies to our view of the world.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2017 15:54

a noko convetional strike on soko and japan in exchange for US B2 strike, would be the domino that sets events in motion...events that will be very positive for us, incl TSP losing its nuclear test range

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 10 Aug 2017 16:43

Like China is reluctant for war, America is reluctant for war. They both want to win without war. It's su-su strategy.

Intimidation and threat can win war.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 10 Aug 2017 16:44

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Probably air combat might be witnessed with IAF conducting first strike on large scale troop mobilization on Chinese sides which when the cross the seven bridges will endager India's security and we might strike first ...
If this happens then it will be first time Bharatvarsh firing first bullet and taking initiative in any war , we will have crossed a big mental block as a collective consciousness. NaMo - Rawat - Doval are the perfect ones to do it.

Why do we forget 1971, Goa liberation and other interventions.The Gandhi/Nehruvian(Gandhuvian) thoughts of ahinsa have influenced us so much that we are simply forgetting the facts. That may be a different debate, but there is no point for even first slap to come on any cheek.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Aug 2017 16:59

The current IAF chief is a Kargil veteran. He would relish another mountain fight.

Talk about having the right man at the right time!

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 10 Aug 2017 17:08

Some info regarding the 33 corps move.

Meanwhile, the Indian Army has preponed their annual two-week exercise – Operational Alert, popularly called Op Alert, for 33 Corps overlooking the Sikkim’s border to acclimatise themselves with their likely area of operation.

The acclimatisation happens in two stages: Stage-1 acclimatisation which is conducted over six days, post which troops can operate up to 11,800 feet and Stage-2 acclimatisation another four days, post which soldiers can operated up to 14,700 feet.

http://zeenews.india.com/india/doklam-s ... 31679.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2017 17:10

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/opin ... eft-region

susan rice spreading usual lies about how to deal with Noko

vnms · Post by **vnms** » 10 Aug 2017 17:12

Arjun Saar, those areas are and have been Bharatvarsh.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2017 17:17

al masdar news::
BEIRUT, LEBANON (12:10 P.M.) – According to North Korean state media, the Korean People’s Army (KPA) are making preparations for the launch of four ballistic missile towards US territory.

North Korean state media said that, with the permission of supreme leader Kim Jong-un, the KPA would live-fire four Hwasong-12 intermediate range ballistic missiles (IRBM) towards Guam island (a US territory in the Pacific) and that these missiles would land within about 30 to 40 kilometers of its coast. Furthermore, it was clarified that the plans to conduct such an operation could be concluded by around “mid-August”.

In the event that such action is carried out, the missiles are expected to fly over Japan to a total distance of almost 3,400 kilometers. Flight time is estimated at just short of eighteen minutes.

The island of Guam has major US military infrastructures present on it including airbases which house US Air Force strategic bombers.

Most US politicians, military figures and geopolitical analysts have concluded that North Korea would probably be wiped off the map and its current government destroyed in the event actual hostilities are triggered between Pyongyang and Washington.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2017 17:18

Enqyoob saar would be delighted to get this news.

has been sulking since his new djinntech post launch air to air jammer was been countered by Noko

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 10 Aug 2017 17:27

Why India cannot back off now.
http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/GXIc4NL ... ign=buffer

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 10 Aug 2017 18:13

schinnas wrote:At this point, we need creative solutions that can ensure H&D of China while also addressing the core concerns of India and Bhutan and avoid a conflict, which has potential to escalate. It can also be a net positive for Bhutan.

China enters into a deal with Bhutan to get an equivalent area in north east bhutan that is already disputed by Bhutan and withdraws its claim to Dolam plateau in a grand gesture towards its smaller neighbor. Additionally, for all the trouble caused to Bhutan, China provides interest free loan of $5B aid to Bhutan to improve its infrastructure and tourism industry. With this, China gives up any additional claims to Bhutanese territory and concludes a full boundary agreement. Bhutan and India praise China's mature behavior fetting a great power and it is repeatedly shown to Aam Chens in Chinese media to save its H&D. Bhutan is happy to resolve its boundary issue and get out of cross hairs between two big neighbors and has a large aid money to use for economic development.

Bhutan give Dholam plateau to India in exchange for equivalent land towards its east. This can be done quietly after a few months and may go unreported in Chinese media.

India is happy to get soverign control over strategically important territory.

Bhutan is happy to resolve all its boundary issues with China. Of all the 3 areas contested by China, it gives only one small part and concludes the deal.

China would retain its H&D intact and make peace in an area it cannot militarily wrest control of. It lives to focus its energies on the disputes over CPEC, Aksai Chin and Tawang.

Two points.
- To sacrifice our national security to save somebody's H&D is big mistake. We have done this before and got slapped on face and endangered our national security for future generations. Read about China getting UNSC veto,1962,A.Hind, pearl string and giving nukes to Bakis. All this ti
me there was no reaction from us. They claimed and took what they wanted.
- Chinese do not beleive any treaty. They store them all. They use the treaty which is useful to them. Some time McMohan line is good but some time not. They recognized Sikkem as part of India. And our leader are happy. WTF. They will come with new map tomorrow. And everything starts again. All they respect is "real presence of boots on ground".

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Aug 2017 18:19

IIRC, Even on Sikkim their endorsement was indirect and while in return our stand on Tibet was explicit.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Aug 2017 19:17

schinnas wrote:At this point, we need creative solutions that can ensure H&D of China

What on earth for ?? They need precisely the opposite - step away with realization that the nibble-and-grab approach no longer works, and neither does jumping up and down yelling like a chimpanzee at us.

You don't offer the other side a fig leaf of respectability if you want long term gains. You underline the changed dynamic in the harshest possible way.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2017 19:25

well they got what they wanted

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 10 Aug 2017 19:30

vnms wrote:Arjun Saar, those areas are and have been Bharatvarsh.

Did i say that Tibet, Doklam are not areas, unless we start thinking in expansionist mindset, we would be needled and our territory would be nibbled. While not going all the way like chola, but we should really start treating these chinese like we do to pakis. Come and get some. Our national discourse should start calling china as our biggest enemy like GF.
Every generation needs a challenge, this generation has not seen the wars the sacrifices required to carve out a nation. Reading the examples quoted earlier about grandparents making sweaters, and people keeping fast('65) is what we need. While not a war, but we need to capitalize this. THis is where I feel NaMo could have gone further.
Just so that you know recent positioning of THAAD missiles in SoKo resulted in decrease in sales of Korean cars.
If we want to be amongst big boys, we gotta act like one.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 10 Aug 2017 19:55

Singha wrote:a noko convetional strike on soko and japan in exchange for US B2 strike, would be the domino that sets events in motion...events that will be very positive for us, incl TSP losing its nuclear test range

If Trump stays true to his character, there will be no US attack on NoKo, no provocation, no causus belli, no pretext. Trump doesn't care about H&D, face-saving etc.

So any speculation on Chinese action in Doklam should exclude the effect of US-NoKo conflict.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Aug 2017 20:59

There is no need to preserve China's H&D.
They are truant and need to be slapped around and put in place

Our CONgress I governments were trying to preserve Pakistan's H&D for 60 odd years, did that help reform their behaviour? 3 years of Modi and Pak Pitai at the LOC has helped more than 65 years of appeasement.

China has to be taught a hard lesson in respecting India's boundaries and other nations boundaries.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 10 Aug 2017 21:22

KLNMurthy wrote:If Trump stays true to his character, there will be no US attack on NoKo, no provocation, no causus belli, no pretext. Trump doesn't care about H&D, face-saving etc.

So any speculation on Chinese action in Doklam should exclude the effect of US-NoKo conflict.

Cant be sure about it. Trump can act non-linearly and can scale up the rhetoric and decibel level very quickly. Besides, KJU has farted loudly on Trumps face (loved the way Philip put it. LOL). Trump does portray the classic white guy behavior at times and can show his ego sometime.

He has a huge arsenal at his command and lets face it - the guys who are manning it cant refuse Trump to not have his way once in a while.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Aug 2017 21:43

Why are we discussing Korea and American response to NoKo provocation in this thread?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Aug 2017 22:21

Oh steppes-shepherd
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1060748.shtml?
Read that. Even a hint of a boycott and the op eds start pouring out in gobar times. If a boycott got any serious traction, they'd get really worried..

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 10 Aug 2017 22:29

As a backup plan, can we build a highway that passes through BD, connecting WB and the north east.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Aug 2017 22:30

pankajs wrote:IIRC, Even on Sikkim their endorsement was indirect and while in return our stand on Tibet was explicit.

Yes, true.

China recognized,though only implicitly, that Sikkim was part of India as the Border Trade Agreement signed during the visit of Vajpayee allowed "Changgu of Sikkim State" and "Renqinggang of the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR)"as trade venues for the border trade. The Chinese side did not explicitly recognize Sikkim’s status with India and in fact the Chinese spokesman said that it was “an enduring issue left over from history”.

On the other hand, Vajpayee said, "The Indian side recognizes that the Tibet Autonomous Region is an integral part of the People's Republic of China".

During Wen Jiabao's visit to New Delhi in return, he simply said that Sikkim was no longer an issue in bilateral relations.

Of late, China has started wavering on Sikkim.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 10 Aug 2017 22:35

by G Sarkar
Great. Back in 1962, I was 8 years old, but could read Bengali newspapers and kept up with the war. We were living in Rourkela. I do remember my father's Punjabi co-worker's mother who was about 70 years old that time. She was knitting woolen pullovers for the Jawans who were not adequately clothed. She showed me her work. The Indian military told her what color the sweaters should be and the number (size) on the knitting needles. She went out and purchased wool according to specifications. She told me that she was going to knits as long as she had fingers. She had also vowed never to buy Chinese, gaddars as she called them. I must have been impressed as I still remember so many years later. Personal boycott of Chinese made products have happened before, and it will happen again if war starts. I have no doubt about it.
Gautam

My mother did it in 1962, 1965 and 1971. She knitted over 50 sweaters for jawans. They had a club in Karnal, Haryana where everyday women would get together for few hours., knit, cooked non perishable food (mathi, shakar para, etc) and donate!

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 10 Aug 2017 22:38

#ChinaVsJinping : Secrets behind Dragon’s Sabre Rattling

In today’s China, awfully omnipotent and omnipresent President Xi Jinping is calling shots on all major domestic, international, diplomatic, defence, and security and Communist Party matters. His aura and power which he wields in hand have placed him on the list of strongest Chinese leader in the Communists China’s history next to Mao. Jinping’s reach across power circle and governance has made him an invincible figure.

Obviously, his dominance in all spheres of public life as General Secretary of Communist Party, President of Government of China and Chairman of the Central Military Commission, Jinping’s hunger and grudge for long lasting power is becoming enviable to many in CPC and Chinese Military.

In this piece, we will take a look at the ostentatious anti-corruption campaign which Jinping is running through Secretary General‎ Yang Xiaochao of powerful Central Commission for Discipline Inspection. The said campaign has prosecuted and convicted many military officers and Communist leaders in last few years.

The piece is worth a read. Goes on to list out the number of senior military and political leaders neutralized by Xi Jinping a part of his anti 'corruption' drive.

Which brings me to a question .. What is the current level of faith he has in the CMC?

That there is no face saving way out for Xi is a given. Without a fight he loses face for sure. Might he be tempted to take a gamble and precipitate a clash in the vain hope that it just might end up in a victory for the PLA, or atleast something that can be sold as a victory to the masses?

Alternatively, Xi's goose is in any case cooked. Would a military setback also dent the relative power of the CMC Generals and help soften the blow for Xi?

Hope above thoughts make some sense to the learned folks here.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 10 Aug 2017 22:42

Guys, Maj Gen Bakshi just now said in a program that there are pathan militias across BD's norther border, that'll help the Chinese to take the railway track that passes through Siliguri corridor from the south.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Aug 2017 23:10

laughable at best ...

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 10 Aug 2017 23:19

kancha wrote:#ChinaVsJinping : Secrets behind Dragon’s Sabre Rattling

In today’s China, awfully omnipotent and omnipresent President Xi Jinping is calling shots on all major domestic, international, diplomatic, defence, and security and Communist Party matters. His aura and power which he wields in hand have placed him on the list of strongest Chinese leader in the Communists China’s history next to Mao. Jinping’s reach across power circle and governance has made him an invincible figure.

Obviously, his dominance in all spheres of public life as General Secretary of Communist Party, President of Government of China and Chairman of the Central Military Commission, Jinping’s hunger and grudge for long lasting power is becoming enviable to many in CPC and Chinese Military.

In this piece, we will take a look at the ostentatious anti-corruption campaign which Jinping is running through Secretary General‎ Yang Xiaochao of powerful Central Commission for Discipline Inspection. The said campaign has prosecuted and convicted many military officers and Communist leaders in last few years.
The piece is worth a read. Goes on to list out the number of senior military and political leaders neutralized by Xi Jinping a part of his anti 'corruption' drive.

Which brings me to a question .. What is the current level of faith he has in the CMC?

That there is no face saving way out for Xi is a given. Without a fight he loses face for sure. Might he be tempted to take a gamble and precipitate a clash in the vain hope that it just might end up in a victory for the PLA, or atleast something that can be sold as a victory to the masses?

Alternatively, Xi's goose is in any case cooked. Would a military setback also dent the relative power of the CMC Generals and help soften the blow for Xi?

Hope above thoughts make some sense to the learned folks here.

If that report is correct, then it's logical for Eleven to keep the issue boiling till the CPC politburo meeting naa? That's what is called politics. When there's uncertainty, it's advantage Eleven.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 10 Aug 2017 23:31

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/india-c ... 009147.cms

India, China continue to militarily reinforce positions but no evacuation of border villages yet

NEW DELHI: India and China continue to militarily reinforce their positions with the almost two-month long troop standoff in Doklam showing little signs of de-escalation, even as the Army on Thursday denied it had ordered evacuation of some villages near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction.
Government sources said there has been "some build-up" in terms of additional troops and tanks as well as artillery and air defence units in the Tibet Military District by the People's Liberation Army (PLA), but there is "no major or unusual mobilization" towards the Line of Actual Control as yet to send alarm bells clanging in the Indian security establishment.
Any major PLA mobilization towards our border will be detected since it will take around a week. Our well-acclimatized troops, backed by artillery, rockets and other heavy-calibre weapons, are currently deployed in the 'no war, no peace' mode. They are ready to respond quickly if required," said a source.
Diplomatic channels, however, are also being used in a bid to diffuse the tense faceoff in the Bhutanese territory of Doklam, which erupted after Indian soldiers pro-actively blocked an attempt by the PLA to build a motorable road towards the tri-junction in mid-June. "There is likely to be a border personnel meeting at Nathu La on Friday," said another source.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Aug 2017 23:37

Singha wrote:the forbidding road leading back from tawang to the Se La pass

it could be much straightened and improved with proper civil works imo
https://earth.google.com/web/@27.507080 ... 613068t,0r

The plan is to build a 2 lane tunnel under the pass. ~ 7-8 kms long tunnel
Then another fairly long tunnel to have an all weather connectivity to Tawang.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Aug 2017 23:38

There is little hope .. Xi cannot withdraw till Peoples Congress is over even if he has good intentions. But I doubt *good intention* part. A bully does not change unless he receives a trashing.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Aug 2017 23:41

Karthik S wrote:As a backup plan, can we build a highway that passes through BD, connecting WB and the north east.

Bangladesh is planning several
From Chittagong to Mizoram
Widening another set of roads across bangladesh with new bridges to deal with traffic from near Kolkata to NE states is being talked about

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Aug 2017 00:04

Just look at the vast expanse of Tibet, that China illegally captured. Not even 3% of it is occupied.
Why does China want Doklam or Aksai Chin or other areas?

Its not like these ares are rich in diamonds or oil.

This is plain old crass haramigiri and bullying by the chinese.
The more one accomodates these tiny bullies, the more exaggerated their claims will be

China needs to be harrassed 24x7 along the entire breadth of the Indo-tibetean border.
A policy similar to Pakistan Pitai has to be implemented for China. Military teams with sufficient fire power as back up, and special mandrain speaking propagandoo teams which will intrude into Tibet, pain slogans on the rocks, plant Tibetean and Indian Flags etc etc all along the border is needed.
If China retaliates, they should get a big bamboo up their musharraf. They have really really long supply lines and will eternally remain vulnerable

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Aug 2017 00:12

The next intruding cheeni team should be pulled into indian territory, instead of scuffling with them at the border
They will be super careful in the future

Those who have intruded, must be kept as guests aor a few days, while the Foreign Minister can talk hindi-chini bhai bahi statements from Dilli

PLA soldiers need to be given the oppertunity to learn some Indian values too

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Aug 2017 00:40

Gagan wrote:The next intruding cheeni team should be pulled into indian territory, instead of scuffling with them at the border
They will be super careful in the future

Those who have intruded, must be kept as guests aor a few days, while the Foreign Minister can talk hindi-chini bhai bahi statements from Dilli

PLA soldiers need to be given the oppertunity to learn some Indian values too

Boss . . careful for what you wish for .. that exactly could happen !!

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Aug 2017 01:17

Gagan wrote:The next intruding cheeni team should be pulled into indian territory, instead of scuffling with them at the border
They will be super careful in the future

Those who have intruded, must be kept as guests aor a few days, while the Foreign Minister can talk hindi-chini bhai bahi statements from Dilli

PLA soldiers need to be given the oppertunity to learn some Indian values too

Or launch a counter intrusion and deploy a large force behind the lot and cut off their line of communication. The Chinis can sit on their instrusion as much they want ...without food or water.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 11 Aug 2017 01:47

A war might actually not be a bad thing as compared to moving back 100 mts. If China targets only the Dolam area saying Chinese territory than India can also target the same area saying Bhutanese territory. During the war we should ensure a large amount of shelling into the region to ensure the existing road constructed and the area is completely decimated. While we don't have a MOAB type do we have something close that will convert the Dolam Plateau into Dolam Crater?