Artillery: News & Discussion

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ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ks_sachin »

Srutayus wrote:Here is a Korean source:
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud= ... 46&mod=skb

The actual source is the Korean parliamentary inquiry in 2016 which can no doubt be found and read by those with ample time and knowledge of the Korean language.
The Korea Herald is a reputed paper and the reporter's email address is below the story.
It is no more or no less pubic than the reports about the Dhanush.

Gyan's post is obviously a plea to provide a level playing field to Indian systems. It need not be in the specific context of SPH systems, but for all promising that Indian systems whose potential was never realized and lost out to less capable imports such as the Nag, Arjun etc.

You may give a long leash to correct the faults in expensive imported systems cleared for induction, but please take the same or at least some effort to work with Indian developers.

Threats to ban posts that are not to ones liking in fits of pique brings little credit to the role of a forum administrator.
Fair enough on the source and would be interesting if someone could do a Korean translation. But the issue is one takes a figure from report without context and attribution.

Gyan's post could be a plea but he goes about it in a most abrasive manner. Coming from a forces background it grates.

On the contrary I believe that the moderators are lenient on posts that add little value. Its a tough job so a little bit of self policing before one posts would be good.
shaun
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

what ever might be the reasons , we just love imports . so people here will go to the extent of saying Dhanush lethal to its own troops and ignoring the shortcomings of a foreign gun which actually killed its own people . Double standard of highest order.
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ks_sachin »

shaun wrote:what ever might be the reasons , we just love imports . so people here will go to the extent of saying Dhanush lethal to its own troops and ignoring the shortcomings of a foreign gun which actually killed its own people . Double standard of highest order.
We are not ignoring anything.
Are you reading what we are saying or does the keyboard induce a Pavlovian reaction in you?
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Shaun, why would you say That? It's the Army that was backing the Dhanush? Do read and get informed.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

shaun wrote:what ever might be the reasons , we just love imports . so people here will go to the extent of saying Dhanush lethal to its own troops and ignoring the shortcomings of a foreign gun which actually killed its own people . Double standard of highest order.
incorrect sir, Dhanush induction is not shelved, just training trail stopped due to a failure, it will be rectified or a way to circumvent will be made. these trails are performed precisely to identify problems if any so that in real life shooting it does not occur. gaatit?

BTW 1700 malfunction could be anything from premature rubber bushing wear and tear to barrel burst. since only 2 major incidence reported as per KH i presume it must be the likes of hydrolic fluid leaks or dead battery
Gyan
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

I did not post the link, so people will do their own Googling and learn various issues not only about K9 but also Gun barrels in General. Thanks to Srutayus, Indranil and Shaun for noting the point I am making. I did not post further, as I would have said more things but in a bitter way that would not have been conductive to sane discussion. Ramana just two questions to you. Actual contract for how many Dhanush has been signed 12? 18? 114? 414?
What is present weight of ATAGS and why it's grown so much? It's not a technical question.

Hint:- Marut and Jaguar
shaun
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

ramana wrote:Shaun, why would you say That? It's the Army that was backing the Dhanush? Do read and get informed.
Sir , did I say Army ???? I told some people here and that includes people in the decision making having vested interest. Army will always fight with what they have. When our Generals are relegated 17th in seniority , you can very well guess where we are heading to. And we should stop looking , problems in foreign "maal" in isolation.
Last edited by shaun on 23 Aug 2017 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
niran
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

Gyan wrote:I did not post the link, so people will do their own Googling and learn various issues not only about K9 but also Gun barrels in General. Thanks to Srutayus, Indranil and Shaun for noting the point I am making. I did not post further, as I would have said more things but in a bitter way that would not have been conductive to sane discussion. Ramana just two questions to you. Actual contract for how many Dhanush has been signed 12? 18? 114? 414?
What is present weight of ATAGS and why it's grown so much? It's not a technical question.

Hint:- Marut and Jaguar
let me boast off me knowledge
118 first order
300 second order
1500 final target
Vidur
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vidur »

ramana wrote:Shaun, why would you say That? It's the Army that was backing the Dhanush? Do read and get informed.
Yes the army is indeed backing the Dhanush and the ministry is supportive. Trial process is well laid out. We do not induct any systems without trials. Lives are at stake. There are multiple checks (some would say too many) and approval authorities. Orders are given in a graded manner for all systems including imported ones.

I would again urge caution in conspiracy theories. There are interests highly inimical to national interests waiting for an opportunity to use our system against us. We have had several critics projects being derailed because of this. The media is free to write what they want but are not aleays very well informed or well intentioned and this can be used against the national interests.
deejay
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by deejay »

If orders are given in graded manner why not come up with a batch upgrade plan and issue out the plan in the beginning. Present ordering system leaves too many people asking what next?

I am sure the graded system has a defined philosophy but why not use it to make the future with timelines clearer rather than appear to be withholding further orders.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vidur »

deejay wrote:If orders are given in graded manner why not come up with a batch upgrade plan and issue out the plan in the beginning. Present ordering system leaves too many people asking what next?

I am sure the graded system has a defined philosophy but why not use it to make the future with timelines clearer rather than appear to be withholding further orders.
Because we don't know the batch plan at the start. It depends upon several factors. Primarily the financial approval. Financial approval has come after CCS and MOF approve and then has to be supported in the annual budget so that a contract can be signed. Often the budget is not enough for new projects as we are paying for old contracts. Govts change and hence priorities change. All these issues cannot be predicted. The second issue is that a weapon systems performance needs to evaluated in operating conditions to be sure that performance is as per tests. Otherwise there will be another flurry of media reports and questions asked. It is safer for all concerned to go this route. Safer professionally but whether it is safer for the nation I guess is moot.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vidur »

One solution is to overhaul the entire approval system and budgetary support process. For large capital purchases approve a multi year program and have a separate money bill passed for that. That is what many other democracies do. But then it can open another can of worms - politicians getting even more involved to push their pet projects because of various reasons. But I think we should explore this.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

deejay wrote:If orders are given in graded manner why not come up with a batch upgrade plan and issue out the plan in the beginning. Present ordering system leaves too many people asking what next?

I am sure the graded system has a defined philosophy but why not use it to make the future with timelines clearer rather than appear to be withholding further orders.
Dejaay Garu you of all people know a complex system will have teething problems which will need to be ironed out in subsequent production batches, IA has provided it intention in writing (and approved to boot) to acquire 1500 of Dhanush by 2024 that is just 6 and a half years away.
BTW ATAGS is under going vigorous testing.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Gyan You force me to put on my admin hat which I don't often

You post a scandalous news without references and want others to dig them by your own admission.
Then you drop dark hints. If you have some thing to say, then say it. No one has been after you.
Nor have you admitted being some deep state dark operator embedded in GOI.

So If you post one more cr*p you will be banned.
We are here to learn and not put back seat driving.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

the 1700 malfunctions over 500 units seems actually unnaturally low for a complex military system.
Gaur
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gaur »

ramana wrote:Gyan You force me to put on my admin hat which I don't often

<snip>
Nothing to be proud about. Hope mods become more active in improving quality.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Thanks for your feedback.

I don't put it on and intimidate posters as I participate in the discussion.

Posters are aware when I am not in admin mode.

Looks like you want a danda master.
Anyway what is your beef. I note you have been off mood lately.
Gaur
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gaur »

^^
Thanks for taking it constructively. No beef. Respect you as a poster. Would just be happy if posters think before posting unrehearsed opinions/emotional rants. Think "danda master" mode is required for that.

Anyways, last post from my side on this. Otherwise would have to report my own post for being OT. :D
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Singha wrote:the 1700 malfunctions over 500 units seems actually unnaturally low for a complex military system.
That is for nearly 1000 units over a period of 5 years. As we don't know what is included in the failures. It is impossible to comment on the severity of the same.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by hnair »

Vidur wrote: I would again urge caution in conspiracy theories. There are interests highly inimical to national interests waiting for an opportunity to use our system against us. We have had several critics projects being derailed because of this. The media is free to write what they want but are not aleays very well informed or well intentioned and this can be used against the national interests.
First, welcome Vidur! Good to see you around

Indian artillery is the only resort for a strike corps during first day of war, where CAS is not assured in a heavily contested airspace. It frees the airforce for one or two days to mop up the airspace over the enemy territory, because the strike corps can punch through and grab land, with the aid of the tube and rocket fire. In situations where everyone talks about biggest land grab in shortest time, it is nice to have large number of big tubes.

Currently the situation is subpar and that is no conspiracy theory territory. The second iteration of "nix the artillery domain" seem to be playing out The first one was Bofors + Denel, which put paid to any good artillery upgrade program by a good 20-30 years. Now we have the muzzle-brake mishap + SoKo mishap being highlighted prominently.

From recent news, it is almost like some higher power does not want Army's strike corps to get neither CAS nor indirect-fire support!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

X-Posted from the Armored Vehicles thread...
Marten wrote:Very interesting reading. The first one was what I had referenced earlier. However, while reading further down that list...
Present and Futuristic Trends in Weapon System: Arun Kumar Roy, P.H. Lankennavar, V.S. Ghadge
About The Authors

Arun Kumar Roy
Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pune India
Mr A.K. Roy has completed BSc Engg. (Mechanical) from MIT, Muzaffarpur and MTech (Thermal and Fluid Engg.) from IIT, Bombay. Presently he is Scientist E and heading Ordnance and Recoil System division of Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) at Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pune. He has been working for the design and development of armament system of tank and artillery gun. He has worked for the design and development of weapon systems of 120 mm MBT Arjun and 155 mm x 52 cal of ATAGS. He has published/presented more than 25 papers in journal/ symposium/conference.

P.H. Lankennavar
Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pune India
Mr P.H. Lankennavar has completed BE (Mechanical) from Gogte Institute of Technology under Karnataka University, Dharwad, in 1996. Presently working as Scientist in Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) division at Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pune. Since then he has been working for the design and development of armament stores for tank and artillery guns. Presently he is working for the design and development of weapon system for ATAGS gun.

V.S. Ghadge
Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pune India
Mr V.S. Ghadge is currently Scientist ‘G’ and Associate Director in Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pune. He was associated with the design and development, performance evaluation trials and integration of armament system of main battle tank MBT Arjun, a project of national importance. He is currently leading a team of scientists for design and development of 155 mm x 52 cal ordnance and recoil-system for ATAGS gun.
5. MUZZLE BRAKE
The muzzle brake is a mechanical device attached at the muzzle end of the barrel or an integral part of the barrel. The very purpose of the muzzle brake is to absorb some of the recoil impulse by deflecting propellant gases, and thereby reducing the force of recoil of the gun. Muzzle brake by its typical geometrical construction shares around 30 per cent - 45 per cent recoil energy. Thus around 55 per cent - 70 per cent recoil energy remains to be absorbed by the recoil system.
The muzzle brake causes imbalance in moments because of its location at an extreme end of the Barrel. The muzzle brake is either screwed or welded to muzzle end tip. The problem of imbalance of moments aggravates if calibre length of the gun is larger. It has to withstand high pressure gas flow. By diverting the gases to reverse direction the required purpose of reduction of thrust on the gun support system is achieved. Therefore, high strength to mass ratio is a major criterion in selecting material for muzzle brake Secondly, since it is fitted at the muzzle end tip, the outside diameter of the muzzle brake will approximately be around 2 to 2.5 times larger than the outside diameter of Barrel at muzzle end for its better performance. Types of Muzzle Brakes used in tank and artillery guns are shown in the following Fig. 10 and the study shows the free recoil velocity of a typical gun with various types of muzzle brake is as shown in Fig. 11.
Image

Also the heavy muzzle brake causes barrel droop in long barreled guns.

This adds to potential for side slap.

Very good paper to understand the issues.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

since russia and israel and usa are known to have deepest claws in our dilli billi complex and none of them are in the horse races, one can only surmise indigenous BIF+CBM monkeys + TSP + Cheen has a JV on this no-artillery-for-yindu thing

we gave the pakis a taste of bitter medicine with heavy artillery in late 90s.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vidur »

hnair wrote:
Vidur wrote: I would again urge caution in conspiracy theories. There are interests highly inimical to national interests waiting for an opportunity to use our system against us. We have had several critics projects being derailed because of this. The media is free to write what they want but are not aleays very well informed or well intentioned and this can be used against the national interests.
First, welcome Vidur! Good to see you around

Indian artillery is the only resort for a strike corps during first day of war, where CAS is not assured in a heavily contested airspace. It frees the airforce for one or two days to mop up the airspace over the enemy territory, because the strike corps can punch through and grab land, with the aid of the tube and rocket fire. In situations where everyone talks about biggest land grab in shortest time, it is nice to have large number of big tubes.

Currently the situation is subpar and that is no conspiracy theory territory. The second iteration of "nix the artillery domain" seem to be playing out The first one was Bofors + Denel, which put paid to any good artillery upgrade program by a good 20-30 years. Now we have the muzzle-brake mishap + SoKo mishap being highlighted prominently.

From recent news, it is almost like some higher power does not want Army's strike corps to get neither CAS nor indirect-fire support!
The conspiracy theory is the claim that the foreign acquisition was completed without adequate testing and hence is flawed, while the Indian acquisition is not being given a level playing field. This is the kind of argument used to derail acquisitions.

You make good points about the role of tube artillery cand it is not good that we haven't been able to put the procurement program on track despite several attempts especially since early 2000. Now finally some progress is being made in a few categories but even then it will take years before the gaps are filled. The requirement is huge. This shows the repercussions when critical programs are derailed.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vidur »

Singha wrote:since russia and israel and usa are known to have deepest claws in our dilli billi complex and none of them are in the horse races, one can only surmise indigenous BIF+CBM monkeys + TSP + Cheen has a JV on this no-artillery-for-yindu thing
What do these acronyms mean ?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

BIF break india forces.

CBM confidence building measures.

T S P terrorist state of pakistan.

Rest ought to be clear.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Yaas,"Dhanush will see the light of day",but perhaps it will finally arrive when I am about to see the "light going out" at the end of the "day"! Ever since BRF was founded,I've been watching the years slip by,forever waiting for the LCA like "Godot",the MMRCA,etc.,etc. I pity the 3 chiefs.The services will have to identify the leading candidates for the post of chief a decade earlier,as whatever decision eventually gets taken,the 3rd man/chief down the line will inherit his predecessor's efforts! During that decade,govts. may come,govts. may go. If you have a govt. like the UPA 1&2,the Dear Lord help India!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ks_sachin »

Philip wrote:Yaas,"Dhanush will see the light of day",but perhaps it will finally arrive when I am about to see the "light going out" at the end of the "day"! Ever since BRF was founded,I've been watching the years slip by,forever waiting for the LCA like "Godot",the MMRCA,etc.,etc. I pity the 3 chiefs.The services will have to identify the leading candidates for the post of chief a decade earlier,as whatever decision eventually gets taken,the 3rd man/chief down the line will inherit his predecessor's efforts! During that decade,govts. may come,govts. may go. If you have a govt. like the UPA 1&2,the Dear Lord help India!
Point being?
This is tiring.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

ramana wrote:Gyan You force me to put on my admin hat which I don't often

You post a scandalous news without references and want others to dig them by your own admission.
Then you drop dark hints. If you have some thing to say, then say it. No one has been after you.
Nor have you admitted being some deep state dark operator embedded in GOI.

So If you post one more cr*p you will be banned.
We are here to learn and not put back seat driving.
The information about K9 is widely and easily available. Hence cannot be termed as scandalous. Also as it is corroborated, it cannot be termed as crap. The facts are available in open forum, it's the interpretation that leads to dispute. I am not making any; out of the world claims; which are extra ordinary.

For instance, there was a problem in ofb heat treatment of tank barrels but why did same problem happen to "imported" barrels? We routinely accuse OFB of making crappy products but are imported products better? What's wrong in supporting domestic products? Dhanush has got "actual" production order of around Rs 200 crore rest is hope. While K9 and M777 has got production orders of Rs 5000 crores each.

Even earlier we had minor problems but I provided data to back up my statements, the last issue being penetration capability of T90 tank guns. I hope you are not taking it personally or something.

Anyway, I understand that you do not appreciate my conduct. I will avoid posting any further.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

ks_sachin wrote: Point being?
Buy Russian.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Image
ATAGS numbers
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Holy crap, this has to be the largest domestic purchase for the Indian army. Fingers crossed for successful completion of the project.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ Jingo khush hua :)
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

I wish the army could quickly test and induct the Kalyani 155mm howitzers also.

It may not be as advanced as the ATAGS, but it is apparently an internationally popular design, and can be quickly produced by Bharat Forge in India. We need a parallel source of guns while Dhanush is being sorted out and ATAGS is being developed.

It mitigates the risk somewhat. The numbers needed are so large that the OFB alone will never be able to supply them all in time.

All this talk about 'strategic partnership' etc has delayed for years the induction of solutions that were available within the country. :x
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kanson »

Those nos are for total towed artillery, i think. Not merely for ATAGS.

These nos reflect approved/sanctioned figures but actual requirement may go up a few times more, that's why Tata SED is in rejoicing mood.
Same goes for anti tank missile.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by V_Raman »

Why is Kalyani not getting any contract? Are they being ignored for some reason not understood?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Cybaru »

I don't think a contract has been given yet. This is just a marketing poster.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

The plan is to become an all 155mm for the plains artillery force.


Kakkaji, The Baba Kalyani version is the Austrian Voest model right?

If so this was the pre-Bofors gun-howitzer and upgraded to 52 calibers.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

ramana wrote:The plan is to become an all 155mm for the plains artillery force.


Kakkaji, The Baba Kalyani version is the Austrian Voest model right?

If so this was the pre-Bofors gun-howitzer and upgraded to 52 calibers.
Yes, but it is available now. Buy it at least to make up for attrition losses of the originally purchased Bofors gun.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

If India does not buy or induct other guns soon then rest assured during a war it will be these Kalyani artillery guns which will be manufactured and inducted in emergency conditions. Recall that they (Bharat Forge) working 24 X7 delivered tens of thousands of 155 MM Shells (import substitution) during the Kargil War.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by V_Raman »

even after the supply of 155mm shells, army has not bought the kalyani gun?!?! it looks like kalyani also has a 105mm light gun.

why is there no news of army trials etc, on these? are we missing something? is kalyani too desi for comfort of our elite?
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