Indian Military Helicopters

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Aug 2017 06:25

Shouldn't NUH order go straight to Naval Dhruv?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Aug 2017 08:01

Pratyush wrote:The IMRH is 5 years too late for this project. had it come in to being in 2011. The navy wuld be replacing the Sea king with an Indian solution.

Too bad.
..

We can still buy a few, say 32, off the shelf in a FMS deal until IMRH comes online. And it would surely be faster than a MRCA like tamasha.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2017 08:21

i wonder what the lightning conductor things on side of air intakes are...

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Aug 2017 09:53

I strongly hope and wish that NUH deal goes to LUH or ALH and GSQRs are not fixed against domestic products. Also I wonder whether policy will be laid down to absorb technology relating to engines, rotors, sonars, radars, transmission, etc etc or it will again be screw driver ToT

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Aug 2017 11:13

Sorry! Always keep getting the war date for L'wala mxd up!
The LUH that HAL unveiled should right from the start be envisioned as a multi-force helo.The experience with Dhruv/ALH shouldn't be repeated-no folding wing capability,etc. A pity the KA-226 is too small to undertake naval LUH duties. It means yet another type for the naval LUH req. The problem for HAL is that it has no naval prototype flying as of now and the IN would not want to be saddled with an experimental variant,preferring a helo in active service. For the larger ASW heklo,the NH-90 should fit the bill. Kamovs multi-role helos,which have performed well with the IN,have a problem on extra height needed for the hangars due to the contra-rotating rotors. 5.6m vs 5.2m for the NH-90 vs Sea King 5.13m Barring the Talwar class and the carriers,our other warships may not be able to accommodate them.

An old piece,but informative.Sadly,the Sikorsky deal was shot down not too long ago by the MOD/babudom over the single vendor/too costly reasons.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnavai/20150605.aspx

Naval Air: Why Indian Naval Helicopters Fade Away

June 5, 2015: The Indian Navy recently received the first two (of six) Ka-31 helicopters back from Russia where they were sent for refurbishment. India has, until recently, been buying its naval helicopters from Russia and ordered 14 Ka-31s between 2004 and 2005. These were equipped with a powerful radar underneath so they could be used to go aloft and provide a long range early warning radar for a task force containing an aircraft carrier. India also bought another version (the Ka-28) for non-radar naval duties. These have gotten the job done but not as well as their Western counterparts. So when the Indian Navy finally selected a new naval helicopter at the end of 2014 the one chosen was the American S-70. This comes after more of a decade of efforts to get the Indian Navy a new helicopter. India’s slow, corrupt and generally inept military procurement bureaucracy was responsible for most of the delays. A major part of the problem was that the procurement officials had been ordered to buy Indian if possible. Lately the search has become quite urgent because Indian badly needed new naval anti-submarine helicopters. The navy currently has about 40 anti-submarine helicopters all of them more than two decades old and in need of replacement. But the Indian procurement bureaucrats demanded an Indian designed and manufactured helicopter. That has not worked out. Back in 2010 the navy bought six of the Indian made Dhruvs for evaluation and did not like what they saw. The main complaints were lack of engine power and poor reliability. These were considered fatal flaws for helicopters operating off ships and used for SAR (search and rescue) and ASW (anti-submarine warfare) work.

The 5.5 ton Dhruv was in development for two decades before the first one was delivered in 2002. Over the next eight years nearly 80 were delivered, mostly to the Indian Army. But some foreign customers (Nepal and Myanmar) also took a few. A series of crashes indicated some basic design flaws, which the manufacturer insisted did not exist. The navy disagreed, even though the fleet was desperate to replace over three dozen of its elderly Sea King helicopters (a 1950s design, and the Indian Navy models are 20-35 years old) and a dozen KA-28s.

Another major competitor in the effort to provide new naval helicopters were newly built Ka-31a. These are upgrades of the Ka-28, which originally entered Russian service in 1982. The 12 ton Ka-28 is an anti-submarine aircraft, while the more recent Ka-31 is a much improved Ka-28 with a large radar (that is deployed underneath the helicopter once it is in the air), and acts as an early warning radar aircraft. The Ka-28/31 have a cruising speed of 205 kilometers an hour, and a top speed 270 kilometers an hour. Sorties for both helicopters average 3-4 hours. Both have a useful load of four tons (weapons and additional electronics). The Ka-28s and Ka-31s are export versions of the more lavishly equipped Ka-27, used by the Russian navy.

The Ka-28/31 do not have the finish, reliability or reputation of Western models, but cost a lot less, and still gets the job done. For that reason India is refurbishing ten of its Ka-28s. Meanwhile the seagoing sailors need more and better anti-sub helicopters and for too many years they were getting neither. This is all too common with the Indian Navy, but for seagoing sailors it’s something you never get used to.

Recently India ordered 16 new American S-70s. These will arrive just in time because there there are only six operational Ka-28s, not even enough to equip the new Indian aircraft carrier; Vikramaditya. The navy would like to buy 16 new anti-sub helicopters, preferably from a Western supplier. The procurement bureaucracy and parliament finally gave in.

PS:They gave in but recanted later!

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/defe ... 79059.html

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Aug 2017 16:42

Is IOC for LCH being given on 28th August? It seems so.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 24 Aug 2017 17:09

Desi combat chopper to begin production; Jaitley to inaugurate unit on Saturday

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/desi-co ... 208239.cms

BENGALURU: Nine months after the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) gave its in-principle approval for the procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the army at the cost of Rs 2,911 crore, defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is all set to begin production.
Official sources in HAL confirmed that Defence Minister Arun Jaitley will inaugurate the production line on Saturday. The choppers are being procured under the buy Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured (IDDM) category.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 24 Aug 2017 18:40

Any information available on what is the annual production capacity of this new line?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 24 Aug 2017 19:36

The Apaches have been having a torrid time in Israel in the past 2-3 months. Multiple crashes and subsequent groundings to check on the reasons.

SBajwa wrote:

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 24 Aug 2017 19:43

DrRatnadip wrote:Desi combat chopper to begin production; Jaitley to inaugurate unit on Saturday

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/desi-co ... 208239.cms

BENGALURU: Nine months after the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) gave its in-principle approval for the procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the army at the cost of Rs 2,911 crore, defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is all set to begin production.
Official sources in HAL confirmed that Defence Minister Arun Jaitley will inaugurate the production line on Saturday. The choppers are being procured under the buy Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured (IDDM) category.

Is the bold part correct ? I thought the order placed was for around 200 helis in total for kar and ia

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 24 Aug 2017 19:49

Trikaal wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote:Desi combat chopper to begin production; Jaitley to inaugurate unit on Saturday

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/desi-co ... 208239.cms

BENGALURU: Nine months after the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) gave its in-principle approval for the procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the army at the cost of Rs 2,911 crore, defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is all set to begin production.
Official sources in HAL confirmed that Defence Minister Arun Jaitley will inaugurate the production line on Saturday. The choppers are being procured under the buy Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured (IDDM) category.
Is the bold part correct ? I thought the order placed was for around 200 helis in total for kar and ia

Perhaps a typo, instead of 114 for the IA and 65 for the IAF. Or 15 per year.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2017 19:52

Manish_P wrote:The Apaches have been having a torrid time in Israel in the past 2-3 months. Multiple crashes and subsequent groundings to check on the reasons.

An Israeli AH-64 crashed a few days ago, killing one and injuring another. Prior to this the last AH-64 crash with their service that I can dig up is from 2006. Would love to see other crashes for this type with them in the last 2-3 months. There was a discovery of an aft rotor blade crack which grounded the fleet earlier this summer and it has now been determined that the crash this month was not attributable to that cause. I guess one advantage of the MODs long winded process of completing the acquisition program is that the AH-64E fleet has now accumulated a significant cumulative flight time (including thousands of hours deployed in combat situations in Afghanistan etc) where some of the differences between it and the earlier variants can be tested as far as durability is concerned.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 24 Aug 2017 19:53

DrRatnadip wrote:Desi combat chopper to begin production; Jaitley to inaugurate unit on Saturday

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/desi-co ... 208239.cms

From the above article

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 24 Aug 2017 19:59

Marten wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
Is the bold part correct ? I thought the order placed was for around 200 helis in total for kar and ia
Perhaps a typo, instead of 114 for the IA and 65 for the IAF. Or 15 per year.

If it is 15 per year then it means 12 years till this order is completed. I guess that makes more sense considering we are talking about HAL here

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 24 Aug 2017 20:07

brar_w wrote: An Israeli AH-64 crashed a few days ago, killing one and injuring another. Prior to this the last AH-64 crash with their service that I can dig up is from 2006. Would love to see other crashes for this type with them in the last 2-3 months. There was a discovery of an aft rotor blade crack which grounded the fleet earlier this summer and it has now been determined that the crash this month was not attributable to that cause. I guess one advantage of the MODs long winded process of completing the acquisition program is that the AH-64E fleet has now accumulated a significant cumulative flight time (including thousands of hours deployed in combat situations in Afghanistan etc) where some of the differences between it and the earlier variants can be tested as far as durability is concerned.

Quiet correct. The incident a week before this crash is stated to be an emergency landing, not a crash.

Link - Pilot killed, co-pilot injured as IDF chopper crashes in southern Israel

Training accident comes two months after entire Apache fleet was grounded over safety concerns, and a week after another helicopter made an emergency landing

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Aug 2017 22:34

Marten wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
Is the bold part correct ? I thought the order placed was for around 200 helis in total for kar and ia
Perhaps a typo, instead of 114 for the IA and 65 for the IAF. Or 15 per year.

It's not. HAL only has a firm order of 15 LCHs till now.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Aug 2017 22:36

Tender for 360 deg SAR Direction Finding (DF) Homer system for ALH

In order to meet the Ship-borne operations and Coastal Security roles (Maritime
Surveillance and Interdiction, Search & Rescue, Rappelling, Cargo & Personnel
Transportation, Pollution response, Casualty Evacuation and ASW role) helicopters are
required to be fitted with the 360 deg SAR Direction Finding (DF) Homer system to meet the
requirements of Direction Finding and Homing. The SAR DF Homer system should be light
weight, advanced in technology and easy to maintain. The helicopters in this role would
be operated in the saline environment by Indian Coast Guard & Indian Navy.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Aug 2017 22:40

Indranil wrote:6? How does it move the needle one way or the other?

Exposure to a platform that can fly in fog and night, hunt with radar and IR when other assets are blind.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Aug 2017 22:45

deejay wrote:
Singha wrote:russis have brought a bunch of heavily upgraded Mi8 to syria. they seem well armed and well protected with various devices.
The Mi 8 family was always combat capable. We have used them in this role in Kargil, eventually losing a Mi 17. The original Mi8 and then Mi 17 could carry 192, 57 mm rockets. The Mi 17 1Vs and V5s carry 80 mm rockets in lesser nos. They can be fitted with front guns, grenade launchers and also have CMDS. The newer Mi 17V5s can be configured with better avionics suite.

The bulk of MPDR bursting roles and SF ops are Mi 8/17XXX based with combat escorts from same family. "Dhruvs are also increasingly being used for these roles. Strike Corps operations alone have the Mi 35s etc for action as of now.

Re Deejay

Can you comment on survivability of Helos in modern battlefield scenario like Indo China or Indo Pak? Also is IAF looking at additional survivability aids like DIRCM, Towed decoys and Sat Comms? For instance, DIRCMs seem to becoming mainstream equipment but even our costly imported platforms do not seem to have this equipment.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Aug 2017 22:55

Marten wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
Is the bold part correct ? I thought the order placed was for around 200 helis in total for kar and ia
Perhaps a typo, instead of 114 for the IA and 65 for the IAF. Or 15 per year.

Correct only saar. 10 for IAF and 5 for IA. Thats the order so far. or rather proposal cleared by CCS. But the order for would go till the numbers you mentioned eventually.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 24 Aug 2017 23:15

HAL Rudra has an IDAS from Saab iirc.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2017 23:46

On the AH-64E there is an option to either go for the M-USIC from Elta, or the AN/AAQ-24 from Northrop Grumman. The US Army is addressing this issue through a Common Infrared Countermeasures program across its rotary wing fleet which includes the Apache. IOC is planned for 2019.

CIRCM is a type of Directional Infrared Counter Measures (DIRCM). Although complicated in practice, DIRCMs employ a simple concept using a Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) to detect an incoming threat. This information is relayed from the MAWS to a processor, which computes the missile's point in the sky relative to the aircraft carrying the DIRCM and then slews an integral laser towards the missile, dazzling its seeker.

The laser is not destructive and a similar effect can be achieved by shining an IR remote control into the lens of a digital camera. The challenge is more to detect the missile and direct the laser with sufficient accuracy to blind it.

Legacy systems have traditionally been limited to large aircraft. However, constantly shrinking processors and novel laser developments have opened the door to miniaturisation, enabling systems to be developed for smaller fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft and even unmanned aerial vehicles.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Aug 2017 23:50

Prasad wrote:HAL Rudra has an IDAS from Saab iirc.

IDAS type warning system would comprise most of the cost of any DIRCM. But active kill lasers are missing from SAAB system.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Aug 2017 23:57

Trikaal wrote:
Marten wrote: Perhaps a typo, instead of 114 for the IA and 65 for the IAF. Or 15 per year.
If it is 15 per year then it means 12 years till this order is completed. I guess that makes more sense considering we are talking about HAL here

Production is always the number of units that the purchasing agency can
1. Pay for asset with their budget.
2. Absorb - Both find and train new pilots and create support staff. Training includes writing new manuals, exploring new techniques and tactics. This takes a long time.
3. Create infrastructure for operations from key designated airfields.

Deejay can tell you more about all this.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Aug 2017 01:50

Trikaal wrote: If it is 15 per year then it means 12 years till this order is completed. I guess that makes more sense considering we are talking about HAL here

If you can't tell me within 24 hours why this is not trolling, you will receive a warning.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 25 Aug 2017 10:22

Gyan wrote:...
Re Deejay

Can you comment on survivability of Helos in modern battlefield scenario like Indo China or Indo Pak? Also is IAF looking at additional survivability aids like DIRCM, Towed decoys and Sat Comms? For instance, DIRCMs seem to becoming mainstream equipment but even our costly imported platforms do not seem to have this equipment.

Gyan Ji,

First, will you please explain costly imported platforms?

Helicopters have poor survivability in hostile airspace. Even small arms are dangerous. This is understood the world over. Their use in various roles will depend on a the nations will to take losses and importance of objective. The advantage of helicopters make them an attractive platform despite the issues with survivability.

Both on Indo-China and Indo-Pak theaters we have certain objectives which will be tasked to helicopters. These may or may not include LCH/Apaches and depending on the importance of the task, equipment will be selected and utilised. DIRCM etc are additional since we already have CMDS on our machines. Pros cons of DIRCM should be a staff task to evaluate. IAF as of now has very low technology integration in helicopters. Our helicopters are heavily utilised in peace time operations. We are flying through the life of a new machine in 15 years and utilising them under "life extension". The number of helicopters needed in India is very large and is further compounded by a very small fleet in the Indian Civil Market. Hence, focus is on nos and not tech which folks here are more focused on. If a tech is so important it will be developed / bought or may already be there and I do not know it.

The costliest helicopter we have imported so far is the Mi 26. We bought only 04 because of cost. The Mi 8/17s are brutally bare except the Mi 17 V5 which have some eqpt and an Air conditioner. GPS (Indian) system was integrated on our Mi 17s around 2000-2001. VOR/ILS were first seen on Mi 171Vs. In my view, the Dhruv has the best technology on helicopters we operate. The Mi 17 is also the most economical (acquisition cost of machine only) model for medium lift with combat capability and as of now we are still operating some of the first Mi 8s we bought (value for money!). Does not fit the bill of your costly import. However, there is an upgrade programme which you may have read about.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 187813.cms

BENGALURU: City based manufacturer and technological services provider in defence and paramilitary markets, Alpha Design Technologies Pvt. Ltd, today announced the signing of a $30 million contract with Elbit Systems for IAF'S MI-17 helicopter upgrade programme.

The contract was signed at Aero India 2017 on the third day of Asia's premier airshow at Yelahanka airbase here.

The programme involves upgrading of 90 Mi-17 helicopters and Alpha Design, as the major offset partner, will be manufacturing all key sub-units at its Bengaluru factory, the company said in a release.

It said its scope of work will involve manufacturing of key sub-units such as smart displays, new cockpit, transponder, Digital Voice Recorder (DVR), Missile Launch Detection Systems (MILDS), Cables and Brackets.

"The inking of this contract further reinforces our commitment towards providing the best defence technologies to our valiant forces. It is also an acknowledgement of our top-notch quality products and the immense expertise of our team," Alpha Design Technologies CMD Colonel H S Shankar said.

Alpha Design's MILDS is being indigenously manufactured by the company in technical collaboration, with Airbus, as part of DARE (DRDO)'s project for upgradation of helicopters.

Apache's will be the costliest helicopters imported along with Chinook. IAF has limited the buy to 22 which does not fulfill the IA reqmt. Hence IA is buying more.

In helicopters, IAF has only imported what we do not make. We made Chetak/Cheetah and flew them. We have Dhruv and we fly them. In fact the IAF had more Chetak / Cheetah units than Mi 17 units and now some of the Chetak/Cheetah units have converted to Dhruvs. Hopefully the last Mi 8s will be retired this year with the additional Mi 17 V5s that are being imported.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Aug 2017 15:37

Re Deejay

The conversation seems to have gone into unintended direction due to my use of term costly/imported. I meant to say that the Helo like Apache and aircraft platforms like C-130, C-17 are soo costly that their survivability becomes more important. While we have learnt hard lesson of Kargil but why are limiting ourselves to flares, when DIRCM etc are increasingly being adopted.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 25 Aug 2017 17:58

Gyan wrote:Re Deejay

The conversation seems to have gone into unintended direction due to my use of term costly/imported. I meant to say that the Helo like Apache and aircraft platforms like C-130, C-17 are soo costly that their survivability becomes more important. While we have learnt hard lesson of Kargil but why are limiting ourselves to flares, when DIRCM etc are increasingly being adopted.

This in bold is correct and I thought you meant Apache. Refer my earlier post where I said Apache is part of Strike Corps. The use of Strike Corps is in a situation where the objectives are primarily in enemy territory (very generic statement). The threat in such a theater will be exponentially higher than Kargil. To get the objectives of the mission we need super special equipment and men. Both of them are very expensive but that is why they were brought in the strike corps. In other words, the costs are high for high value objective in mostly an aggressive role. Any level of protection may fail in hot airspace, however, how much should be the basic protection without compromising on range/payload etc is something which is being constantly debated. As a pilot I would prefer the latest protection on-board but do the budgets allow all equipment? Is there a right mix or safety optimisation?

The C-130 and C-17 are more multi purpose so not exactly similar but with a little bit of 2+2 you will figure out that their usage is also planned for some tough ops. There was something IAF was practicing when the C130 crash happened. Those objectives are important enough to justify the cost.

DIRCM, if I know correctly, is installed by US on CH 53s, V 22, C17s and C130s. I am not aware if the DIRCM is part of the Apache.

And to go off on a tangent - I think IAF limited their Apache procurement to 22 despite IA wanting more precisely because of cost. Since IA needs more, the rest will be bought by the IA from IA budgets to complete the numbers (this is my opinion only).

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Aug 2017 18:25

deejay wrote:DIRCM, if I know correctly, is installed by US on CH 53s, V 22, C17s and C130s. I am not aware if the DIRCM is part of the Apache.

Deejay, the Common Infrared Countermeasures program (Jointly developed by the US Army and Deptt. of Navy) is addressing this area across many rotary craft lines including the AH-64 program. The program anticipates operational testing in 2019 time-frame with full rate production currently scheduled for December, 2019. Between the two services there are plans to acquire more than 1000 systems as upgrades to current and future rotary winged aircraft. In addition to CIRCM, Boeing has partnered with Elta to also offer its MUSIC (M) product for the Apache.

http://asc.army.mil/web/portfolio-item/ ... ure-circm/
http://elbitsystems.com/media/mini_music_2016.pdf

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Aug 2017 19:08

The primary cost of a DIRCM system lies in IR- UV warning systems to cue the lasers. As we are inducting IDAS etc, on large scale hence absense of extensive orders for DIRCM seem like an anomaly. Even Sat comms & towed decoys are relatively cheap survival equipment.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 25 Aug 2017 19:49

Indranil wrote:
Trikaal wrote: If it is 15 per year then it means 12 years till this order is completed. I guess that makes more sense considering we are talking about HAL here
If you can't tell me within 24 hours why this is not trolling, you will receive a warning.

What part did u construe as trolling ? Is the evidence not in yet on HAL's poor production record ? Is it wrong to call as u see it ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Aug 2017 20:10

Great new about the LCH serial production to begin! The low cost of the 180+ attack helos must be compared with the massive costs of Apaches too.

http://thestrategictimes.com/lch-hawk-i ... roduction/

LCH, Hawk-I to begin production
Posted on August 24, 2017 BluewulfPosted in Aerospace News, Airforce News, Indian Defence News

HAL’s Light Combat Helicopter with about 180 units on order for both IAF and Army, at the cost of Rs 2,911 crore, is all set to begin production.
*(This is just around 17 crores per bird,a mere $2.75M only?!) If true we could acquire 20 LCHs for the cost of just one Apache!!!

Official sources in HAL confirmed that Defence Minister Arun Jaitley will inaugurate the production line on Saturday. The choppers are being procured under the buy Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured (IDDM) category

“The raksha mantri (Jaitley) has confirmed his participation on Saturday and he will be launching the production facility at about 6pm on Saturday,” a source said.

The chopper has been designed by HAL’s Rotary Wing R&D and the basic version has already got the clearance from CEMILAC (Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification).

Besides LCH, Jaitley will also visit the Hawk hanger at HAL. HAL produced its 100th Hawk jet trainer aircraft with designation as Hawk-i (Hawk-India), which the PSU says is its “indigenous role change development programme to convert the jet trainer into a Combat-Ready platform.”

Hawk-i, HAL says, is capable of delivering precision munitions including air-to-ground and close combat weapons, self defence capabilities through electronic warfare (EW) systems, digital map generator among other features.

PS:Reg. the req. for CS for the IA,attack helos vs aircraft,here is an int. piece.
Turboprops — Rise of Cheap Air Power
http://thestrategictimes.com/turboprops ... air-power/

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Aug 2017 21:28

Trikaal wrote: If it is 15 per year then it means 12 years till this order is completed. I guess that makes more sense considering we are talking about HAL here

Trikaal wrote:
Indranil wrote: If you can't tell me within 24 hours why this is not trolling, you will receive a warning.
What part did u construe as trolling ? Is the evidence not in yet on HAL's poor production record ? Is it wrong to call as u see it ?

I read your message wrong as 15 helicopters in 12 years. Your taunt at the end did not help. None the less, you are off the hook.

By the way, while much of HAL requires criticism, its rotary department is truly worthy of praise. HAL currently manufactures 40 helicopters per year. They are ramping up to manufacture at least 1000 helis of five different kinds in the next ten years. That's 100 helicopters per year. This places them in a very elite club of heli manufacturers and designers in the world. And there product is quite good too. I was talking to a ALH pilot. He does not want HAL to make ALH any better. His words were, "It is excellent. Please don't touch it any more!" You just heard Deejay say that ALH is the best heli in the Indian armed forces. So while it is not wrong to call what you see, what you see could be wrong itself!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Aug 2017 21:38

With a plant being set up exclusively for the KA-226,HAL could hugely increase its production,esp. if the same plant could also manufacture the LUH when it fit for serial production.A third helo plant could still be set up elsewhere esp. in the south,closer to BLR since the Med. helo plus the naval req. for over 200 helos is also due to arrive in the near future.As Indra has said,HAL's helo division has been agreat success story.Now if only they could erase that ALH/Dhruv export reputation (Ecuador) with some more exports say to Vietnam....

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Aug 2017 22:06

The plant for the light helos is coming up. But the decision with the Ka-226 has not gone ahead beyond MoUs. It might become an MTA redux, i.e. an MoU to sign every time a Russian dignitary visits India, or an Indian dignitary visits Russia. I hears that the navy doesn't want the 226, but that's hearsay.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Aug 2017 22:09

My guess is that LCH procurement cost will be around USD 30 million per helicopter. Roughly half of Apache.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 25 Aug 2017 22:54

Indranil wrote:
I read your message wrong as 15 helicopters in 12 years. Your taunt at the end did not help. None the less, you are off the hook.

By the way, while much of HAL requires criticism, its rotary department is truly worthy of praise. HAL currently manufactures 40 helicopters per year. They are ramping up to manufacture at least 1000 helis of five different kinds in the next ten years. That's 100 helicopters per year. This places them in a very elite club of heli manufacturers and designers in the world. And there product is quite good too. I was talking to a ALH pilot. He does not want HAL to make ALH any better. His words were, "It is excellent. Please don't touch it any more!" You just heard Deejay say that ALH is the best heli in the Indian armed forces. So while it is not wrong to call what you see, what you see could be wrong itself!

I agree, HAL seems to have gotten it's act together wrt Dhruv(ALH) but we have to remember it took more than 15 years to reach that point(Dhruv production started in 2002 I think ) along the way there were mishaps and embarrassments. I just hope the lessons were learnt and the new copter will be produced much more smoothly and efficiently. Anyway this discussion seems to be getting off topic now. Btw, thanks for letting me 'off the hook'

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Aug 2017 23:11

Can someone answer an query for me.

If LCH has been designer for operating at HA, i.e. ability to fly with load, how can it not be almost as good as Apache on sea level?

I understand AH64 has the "third eye", however in pure load-outs wouldn't it able to carry as much as AH64?

Or LCH airframe cannot take loads similar to AH64?

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 25 Aug 2017 23:13

Cybaru wrote:
Production is always the number of units that the purchasing agency can
1. Pay for asset with their budget.
2. Absorb - Both find and train new pilots and create support staff. Training includes writing new manuals, exploring new techniques and tactics. This takes a long time.
3. Create infrastructure for operations from key designated airfields.

Deejay can tell you more about all this.

I fail to see your point here. Are u saying that we can only pay for 15 helis in total ? That doesn't seem right considering the size of budget and the big purchases we have lined up. If u mean that we can only afford to pay for 15 helis 'yearly' , then still a firm order for 180 can be given with payments as we receive them. My point was that when we initially had a desired requirement for 180 helis, why was a firm order for only 15 made? Slow follow-up orders for HAL means uncertainty which prevents them from investing properly in manufacturing.