Indian Military Helicopters

[Indranil]

To get to an ALH class heli in its first go, this much should be expected. If you have not read about some of its technologies yet, you should. They are truly world-class and in some cases world-beating (and I say this bereft of any nationalism). The Germans experimented the very best of technologies and left when the experiments turned difficult. HAL was left with either taking them to fruition or leaving the project. Kudos to them, that they laboured on.

By the way, they are getting pressure refueling capability next. The front tank will be pressure refueled while the middle and rear tanks will feed off the front tank through gravity.

I would love to see them come up with plain and sea-level specific version though. Compromise some of the hover efficiency for higher top speed, payload and range below 3000 ft. Obviously, such a version can't lift 200 kgs at 20,000 feet. But that is not required of CG's or IN's helis.

[Cybaru]

Trikaal,

Yeah, the production line reflects how many a year the forces are interested in acquiring and can absorb. You are complaining about how things are at the moment, which is not optimal, but that's how it is.

[Indranil]

Can someone answer an query for me.

If LCH has been designer for operating at HA, i.e. ability to fly with load, how can it not be almost as good as Apache on sea level?

I understand AH64 has the "third eye", however in pure load-outs wouldn't it able to carry as much as AH64?

Or LCH airframe cannot take loads similar to AH64?

AH64 can't take loads similar to the LCH at high altitude. LCH can't take loads similar to AH64 at low altitudes.

[nam]

AH64 can't take loads similar to the LCH at high altitude. LCH can't take loads similar to AH64 at low altitudes.

Is it because of restriction on airframe? it has to designed as light as possible for HA, so the airframe cannot tolerate more load? Or because AH64 has a more powerful engine?
Or the wings are not designed for AH64 kind of load? CoG issues?

[Cybaru]

Lower power engines in LCH compared to AH64E and the platform optimized for High altitude. It isn't designed to carry the loads AH-64E is designed for.

[Trikaal]

To get to an ALH class heli in its first go, this much should be expected. If you have not read about some of its technologies yet, you should. They are truly world-class and in some cases world-beating (and I say this bereft of any nationalism). The Germans experimented the very best of technologies and left when the experiments turned difficult. HAL was left with either taking them to fruition or leaving the project. Kudos to them, that they laboured on.

By the way, they are getting pressure refueling capability next. The front tank will be pressure refueled while the middle and rear tanks will feed off the front tank through gravity.

I would love to see them come up with plain and sea-level specific version though. Compromise some of the hover efficiency for higher top speed, payload and range below 3000 ft. Obviously, such a version can't lift 200 kgs at 20,000 feet. But that is not required of CG's or IN's helis.

Yes, I think they are doing that in imrh(or atleast imrh naval version). Hopefully, that program gets accelerated as it seems already a little late.

[Trikaal]

Trikaal,

Yeah, the production line reflects how many a year the forces are interested in acquiring and can absorb. You are complaining about how things are at the moment, which is not optimal, but that's how it is.

I am complaining about total order size, not production and absorption rate. Everyone knows we need the helis so orders should be given ASAP rather than dilly dallying. I am afraid there is russian pressure to buy their helis and not induct too much indigenous maal.

[Cybaru]

I am complaining about total order size, not production and absorption rate. Everyone knows we need the helis so orders should be given ASAP rather than dilly dallying. I am afraid there is russian pressure to buy their helis and not induct too much indigenous maal.

Sir you complained about HAL not executing properly if I read what you wrote right.

"If it is 15 per year then it means 12 years till this order is completed. I guess that makes more sense considering we are talking about HAL here "

[Trikaal]

Sir you complained about HAL not executing properly if I read what you wrote right.

Cybaru sir, true, but that was after someone speculated that the order is still 180, the yearly rate might be 15. But originally, my beef was with the low order book. Which is the actual case, 15 is not the yearly rate, it is the total order size. You can confirm it by seeing the order value .

[Indranil]

AH64 can't take loads similar to the LCH at high altitude. LCH can't take loads similar to AH64 at low altitudes.

Is it because of restriction on airframe? it has to designed as light as possible for HA, so the airframe cannot tolerate more load? Or because AH64 has a more powerful engine?
Or the wings are not designed for AH64 kind of load? CoG issues?

It is not a restriction on either of them. The AH-64 is a heavy gunship while LCH is not. So the payload of AH-64 is greater at lower altitudes. Additionally LCH was designed for higher altitudes. At those hot an high conditions, you need a very high efficiency lift system. In terms of helis, it means low disk loading. Because LCH goes for this, it pays for it in top speed at low altitudes. And because AH-64 doesn't have such a low disk loading and weight to power ratio, it cannot hover at altitudes that LCH can. It is a compromise. This is what I had written about ALH/LCH performance after listening to Pillai sir's interview.

Vivek, some calibration points for LCH high altitude performance.

The LCH fills in an important gap for intercepting and engaging UAV
Wg Cdr (retd) Unni Pillai, Chief Test Pilot (Rotary Wing) HAL

1. The LCH can carry a full load of weapons till 14,000 feet which is unmatched anywhere in the world. Essentially, the LCH can fly at heights of 4.5 km with a full weapons load.

2. The speed of LCH is 280 kmph and Dhruv is around 240 kmph. Because of its sleek design, you can maintain the speed and climb at faster rate.

3. Dhruv takes 6.5 minutes to climb to 20,000 feet. In the summer at Leh, there is the Khardungla Pass which is at 20,000 feet. When you take off from Leh, all the helicopters whether they are Cheetah, Mi-8/Mi-17, they start orbiting over the town of Leh to gain height and once they have reached the necessary altitude only then do they cross the pass. In Dhruv and LCH, you just have to take-off and turn, the helicopter rockets upwards then you have to level out.

4. Rudra has a top speed of 210 kmph, the LCH is able to achieve 280 kmph with all the external stores.

Because, there is no other helicopter in the world which can do what the LCH can do at Kargil or Siachen heights, India had to develop this version first. But now time has come to optimize a version for the plains, unless IA/IAF want all helis to be interchangeable.

[manjgu]

could the Apache be used in CI roles in kashmir , elsewhere.... with all FLIR, TI optics... the vids on youtube look pretty impressive !!! no more hiding in foliage, forests.

[deWalker]

Hi Indranil,

That link (Wg Cdr Pillais article) is dead, it appears to me.

Question for you: you mention Dhruv top speed of 240 kmph and Rudra top speed of 210 kmph: is it the weapons load + armor that slows it down, or something else? I ask because they are the same basic vehicle.

Thanks

Diwakar

[Indranil]

Raghuk can elaborate more. Fully loaded, I don't know if they both have any significant difference. But Rudra does have a higher empty weight so top speed and rate of climb suffer. The utility Mk3 climbs at 740 mtrs per sec, whereas the Rudra can climb at 670. Additionally, the external appendages don't help Rudra in terms of drag.

[morem]

surely you mean meters per minute ?

[Indranil]

Yes

[Manish_Sharma]

To get to an ALH class heli in its first go, this much should be expected. If you have not read about some of its technologies yet, you should. They are truly world-class and in some cases world-beating.....

Could you point to a site or link for this?

TIA

[Manish_Sharma]

To get to an ALH class heli in its first go, this much should be expected. If you have not read about some of its technologies yet, you should. They are truly world-class and in some cases world-beating.....

Could you point to a site or link for this?

TIA

[srin]

Hi Indranil,

That link (Wg Cdr Pillais article) is dead, it appears to me.

It is dead, but it is also archived on different site. Here it is, for your reading pleasure: https://archive.is/iIfS9

PS: When you see a dead link, search the url in gugul. simple onlee.

[Indranil]

To get to an ALH class heli in its first go, this much should be expected. If you have not read about some of its technologies yet, you should. They are truly world-class and in some cases world-beating.....

Could you point to a site or link for this?

TIA

I have never read it in one place. You can start from here.

WE all should be very proud of Dhruv. It is really a great product.

[Trikaal]

ALH/Rudra/LCH is very good inside it's niche, high altitude combat and recon but not very effective in CAS role. It is time HAL started work on a gunship for the army. Something comparable to Apache, hind Mi24 or Kamov Black Shark in terms of the amount of steel it can pump out.

[pankajs]

I have never read it in one place. You can start from here.

WE all should be very proud of Dhruv. It is really a great product.

Lessons Learnt
<snip>
13. No Time Gaps Between LSPs and Production ALHs. Ten Limited Series Production (LSP) ALHs rolled out during 2001-03. The decision to go in for the LSPs was good in itself, as this enabled the dedicated use of 10 ALHs by the operators solely in their respective op environment. Whereas the prototypes are used in a strictly regulated flight testing regime in a protected factory environment, the use of the 10 LSPs in the field by the operators revealed different issues that required remedial action. Even in hindsight it is very obvious these issues may not have come to light in its entirety in the prototypes and the decision for having LSP aircraft was sound. However, instead of having a deliberate pause after the LSPs to fix the issues revealed by the LSPs usage, the regular production line itself was commenced in 2002-03. The imperatives of this decision (which included acquiescence of the Services and approval of MoD) are not known. This decision caused the various niggles found in the LSPs to be passed on the first batches of production aircraft also, which then had to be subsequently retro-modified to correct the problems.

The first 15 appear to be LSPs. LSP appears to be a separate order from the main production lot.
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1725141

“The IOC is expected any time now and the first limited series production (LSP) copter should be coming out by 2018.” says Dr Kumar. He said the production drawings for LSP have been finalised.

[Indranil]

ALH/Rudra/LCH is very good inside it's niche, high altitude combat and recon but not very effective in CAS role.

Why?

It is time HAL started work on a gunship for the army.

Seriously?!!! What is the LCH then?

Something comparable to Apache, hind Mi24 or Kamov Black Shark in terms of the amount of steel it can pump out.

It will come after IMRH.

[shaun]

ALH/Rudra/LCH is very good inside it's niche, high altitude combat and recon but not very effective in CAS role.

Why?

It is time HAL started work on a gunship for the army.

Seriously?!!! What is the LCH then?

Something comparable to Apache, hind Mi24 or Kamov Black Shark in terms of the amount of steel it can pump out.

It will come after IMRH.

@Trikaal...why even bother to scribble fancy dream of yours ??!!

[Trikaal]

ALH/Rudra/LCH is very good inside it's niche, high altitude combat and recon but not very effective in CAS role.

Why?

It is time HAL started work on a gunship for the army.

Seriously?!!! What is the LCH then?

Something comparable to Apache, hind Mi24 or Kamov Black Shark in terms of the amount of steel it can pump out.

It will come after IMRH.

LCH is for high altitude warfare, kargil like situations. It does have a lot of versatility and can be used in low altitudes too, but for cas for armed columns, u need behemoths like Apache and black shark to rain down hell. I am not dissing LCH here, it is a very promising machine and outperforms everyone in its niche role, but it is not designed to carry nearly as much armaments as these others.

[Trikaal]

@Trikaal...why even bother to scribble fancy dream of yours ??!!

@shaun why ever not ? Isn't that exactly what discussion forums are for ? Scribble away ur fancy dreams and then watch others tear them down with scissors of reality

[Indranil]

Why?

Seriously?!!! What is the LCH then?

It will come after IMRH.

LCH is for high altitude warfare, kargil like situations. It does have a lot of versatility and can be used in low altitudes too, but for cas for armed columns, u need behemoths like Apache and black shark to rain down hell. I am not dissing LCH here, it is a very promising machine and outperforms everyone in its niche role, but it is not designed to carry nearly as much armaments as these others.

Payloads are the least of LCH's problems. It can carry 1000 kg of payload in the plains. And at the current acquisition and maintenance costs, you can get multiple LCH's per Apache/Black shark. So, for the same price, you could most likely drop more lead using the LCH.

That argument is fallacious. The Apache is bought a little out of ego (IAF vs IA turf war), a bit our of geo-politics and a bit for its electronics especially the longbow radar.

[deejay]

...
That argument is fallacious. The Apache is bought a little out of ego (IAF vs IA turf war), a bit our of geo-politics and a bit for its electronics especially the longbow radar.

Even this argument is fallacious.

[Rakesh]

Army should focus on attack choppers' privatisation
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 250211.cms

[deWalker]

It is dead, but it is also archived on different site. Here it is, for your reading pleasure: https://archive.is/iIfS9

PS: When you see a dead link, search the url in gugul. simple onlee.

Thanks for the link! Will google for it in the future.

Diwakar

[Trikaal]

Payloads are the least of LCH's problems. It can carry 1000 kg of payload in the plains. And at the current acquisition and maintenance costs, you can get multiple LCH's per Apache/Black shark. So, for the same price, you could most likely drop more lead using the LCH.

That's like saying 2 Tejas are equal to 1 rafale. Quantity doesn't always make up for quality. We need a dedicated heavy attack helicopter. LCH cannot fulfill that role.

[uddu]

^^^Where's the lack of quality wrt LCH? Quality wise it's better than Apache's. Regarding Heavy attack chopper, that could be next variant of LCH.

[pankajs]

Anyone can throw in a statement like "x is an inferior option compared to y". Where it the data to back it? Has anyone done any cost benefit analysis to reach the conclusion?

[Cybaru]

LCH is for high altitude warfare, kargil like situations. It does have a lot of versatility and can be used in low altitudes too, but for cas for armed columns, u need behemoths like Apache and black shark to rain down hell. I am not dissing LCH here, it is a very promising machine and outperforms everyone in its niche role, but it is not designed to carry nearly as much armaments as these others.

Whats your expertise or basis for making such a claim?

[pankajs]

The onus of providing the data rests with the one making the statement / claim. That should be the first principles to have any meaningful discussion.

Secondly we should ask for source else we will get 400 percent data wonlee.

Something like " rain down hell" is not data. We make it easy for folks to shoot and scoot.

[JayS]

Why?

Seriously?!!! What is the LCH then?

It will come after IMRH.

LCH is for high altitude warfare, kargil like situations. It does have a lot of versatility and can be used in low altitudes too, but for cas for armed columns, u need behemoths like Apache and black shark to rain down hell. I am not dissing LCH here, it is a very promising machine and outperforms everyone in its niche role, but it is not designed to carry nearly as much armaments as these others.

You are simply comparing apples vs oranges and saying 'Apples are better' because you like apples better than oranges. Two different machines, designed with different scenarios and requirements in mind. LCH has lot of commonality with Dhruv and Rudra. It was much low risk path to make a medium a LCH with existing capabilities. Also it suited well for the capability gap which we could not have filled by imports anyhow, high altitude warfare. If IA/IAF need heavy gunships in large numbers, they can ask HAL to make one.

"Rain down hell" looks good in Rambo movies and in brochures. Real life is often more nuanced.

[Aditya_V]

Is there any Publically available source on the Orders for ALH Dhruv and how many have been delivered including for CG Navy and Airforce plus BSF, Nepal, Maldives etc., total orders for LCH LUH etc.

[shiv]

LCH is for high altitude warfare, kargil like situations. It does have a lot of versatility and can be used in low altitudes too, but for cas for armed columns, u need behemoths like Apache and black shark to rain down hell. I am not dissing LCH here, it is a very promising machine and outperforms everyone in its niche role, but it is not designed to carry nearly as much armaments as these others.

Why is a big heavy helo needed for armour when Syria shows that men with RPGs can take out tanks? Even Apache is not going to loiter around a tank column shouting "mine is bigger". It will shoot from a safe distance. So will LCH.

Here is a comparison of A 10 Gatling and a salvo of rockets from Mi 35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuLnnVDld-M

[Singha]

iraqi Mi28N destroyed a group of around 60 vehicles and 180 jihadis trying to flee Tal afar 2 days ago

grainy gun camera video excerpt

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/vi ... -tal-afar/

[pankajs]

Is there any Publically available source on the Orders for ALH Dhruv and how many have been delivered including for CG Navy and Airforce plus BSF, Nepal, Maldives etc., total orders for LCH LUH etc.

Not sure but yesterday while scanning for news of LCH cam across an item where the HAL is supposed to have said that they will be done with all pending orders of Dhruv by 2018.

[Trikaal]

You are simply comparing apples vs oranges and saying 'Apples are better' because you like apples better than oranges. Two different machines, designed with different scenarios and requirements in mind. LCH has lot of commonality with Dhruv and Rudra. It was much low risk path to make a medium a LCH with existing capabilities. Also it suited well for the capability gap which we could not have filled by imports anyhow, high altitude warfare. If IA/IAF need heavy gunships in large numbers, they can ask HAL to make one.

"Rain down hell" looks good in Rambo movies and in brochures. Real life is often more nuanced.

That is exactly what I am not doing !!! Did u not read my comment ? I said india has apples and is trying to use apples in scenarios where we need oranges, while buying a few oranges from outside. We need to be building our own brand of oranges.
Apples- LCH
Oranges-Apache
I agree with you on making LCH was a smart decision. Not contesting that. All I am saying is that now that LCH is ready, we need to focus on a heavy attack indigenous copter instead of trying to fit LCH into that role. If we start development soon, we won't be dependent on imports in orange category in future.