Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

manjgu
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 31 Aug 2017 18:26

a) but runways are the weakest link in a air base in terms of ease of destruction and benefit ( cost effective). thats a motor assisted munition..durandal i think.. time delayed bomblets are also dropped to impede air operations. i am not sure with the current air defence tech. how easy it is for planes to overfly the runway ?? !! has to be something standoff... b) PAF bases have multiple runways .. Sarghodha being one of them. any reason for that. I think on the indian side..its usually a single runway??

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Aug 2017 18:37

P-II airforce version has specifically developed Runway busting Ammunition, these and Brahmos First need to go in before the Air launched PGM are dropped in Numbers to take down the Key PAF bases.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2017 19:36

Pakis i think used part of the american aid since the 60s (when they first got on gravy train via CENTO) to build a lot of infra.
the americans provided all the expertise needed to build the bases to house squadrons of their own if needed (should the soviets make a move via iran or afghanistan)

only maybe in 2000s have we started spending a bit of coin on similar infra ... but the std of bases is widely variable ... the big ones in the west are ok, the ones in the east are generally quite poor in comparison and maybe only after 2010 when 1st line sukhois were setting up were investments made.

on top of this many of our key bases are shared with civilian side and suffer from land limitations that preclude expansion or additional runways, hence the brave tactics like operating from taxiways (if needed) that are sub optimal which our fighter pilots practice.

we and most aspire to ape the khan but forget the biggest lesson that khan can teach - build the solid large scale infra first . compared to a $100 mil fighter, construction is really cheap in india - labour ,steel, concrete we have mountains of it but are somehow under the thumb of the cretins in the MOD who need to sign off and authorize even civil works in army cantonments they never venture into or give a crap about.

the pakis also have a cheen clone of the durandal called "hafr" but such tactics need overflying the runway. sending a gliding munition from 20km away is far more survivable but it will need a sensor to home in on the runway unlike a a.c overflying the runway and releasing a dumb durandal. cost, complexity all go up with sensor fused gliders. the next level is powered ones like AASM, and the AGM154 JSOW, Popeye .... finally the really long range missiles like SLAM, JASSM, powered JSOW, taurus, scalp, brahmos-A ...

these 3 tiers of weapons , supported by unpowered unwinged LGBs & dumb bombs in safer airspace form the 4 levels of the cost pyramid

for those who can afford heavy bombers the 5th tier are the JASSM ER, KH101, KH58 which fly for 1000+ km

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2017 19:54

tier1 - "unguided" (CCIP) direct attack iron bombs mk82-84, OFAB, durandals, BLU - overfly target
tier2 - guided "small fin" unpowered JDAM , paveway, spice, griffin,KAB , GBU- max 20km range
tier3 - wing kits unpowered - mjoelnir, wcmd, garuda, diamondback mods , SDB- maybe 20-40km
tier4 - powered medium range - AASM, JSOW, popeye, KH31, KH59, KH58 - 100km ? garudamma too.
tier5 - powered long range - taurus, scalp, slam, jassam, brahmosA - 300-500km
tier6 - powered ER - jassm er, kh101, zircon - 1000+ km

on top of that think tactical ballistic missiles like pralay, ws3, prithvi , Tochka , iskander, atacms and cruise like brahmos, thawks, naval scalp, kalibr ... the koreans and taiwanese have also developed their own mainly for ships.

I would say only usa and russia have a fullish spectrum of weapons covering all tiers in some quantity. and only usa has the numbers for a sustained stand up fight.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 31 Aug 2017 19:59

The JASSM ER actually shares the same footprint with the shorter range JASSM, and a similar amount can be carried by the same tactical platforms such as the F-16.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2017 20:03

range, cost and complexity define the tiers. the slam for instance is a compact weapon vs the ponderous kh59.

india seems to have abandoned tier2 - the traditional LGB after the failure of the trials (excessive wobble and roll).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 31 Aug 2017 20:39

shiv wrote: But then how do you send accurate PGMs at hundreds of targets - some of which will be decoys and some not seen at all? Getting airfields is easier. Missiles may be best for known radar and SAM sites.


By satellite surveillance in peace time. Revisit times of Indian surveillance assets is X days. I am willing to bet, every picture of these airbases will be pored over by qualified people at every pass to monitor whats going on. If GPS coordinates are known, its a simple matter of feeding them in to the standoff weapon of choice. If our planes/missiles do a pre-emptive strike, I am willing to bet PAF wont be able to generate sorties reaching 4 digits.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 31 Aug 2017 20:48

Jamwal, The wax is used as binder for the RDX. Its benign and stable. This combination was used since WWII. Also note its the booster charge to set off the main charge. The main charge is Torpex-4B which is UK formulation for high heat blast. Was developed for underwater blasts.

KarthikS, Those pictures are from Desert Storm the first US Persian gulf war. The Hardened Air Shelters (HAS) are destroyed by the I-2000 bomb which got a GBU name later on. The HAS were built by European contractors to NATO standards. The I-2000 is basically a stretched armored piercing shell which penetrates and then blows up inside.

US designers rely on kinetic or momentum effect rather than shaped charge like Brimstone. One person told me the genesis is in the 450 kg Advanced Penetration Weapon (APW). They found it didn't do much damage to HAS but was great for runways. ON HAS it could bounce off or pancake i.e. become a chapatti due to buckling load. A 2000 lb had enough momentum to go thorough before it buckles.


Prasad, Thanks for the two pictures. The cut way a has two pipes from the middle going to the nose and the tail. Basically that is the arming trail. For penetrating targets the fuze will be in the tail and a dummy plug installed in the nose. All the rest will have nose fuze. Next expect more sophisticated fuzes rather than the mechanical ones which could have deficiencies. The bomb filling is 192/500 i.e. ~40% This gives it more frangibility and breaks up into lethal fragments. I will check the HSLD explosive ratio too. The I-2000 is much less as it depends on strong case.

Shiv, Once DRDO started developing the 1000 kg bomb I felt the doctrine was changing. Lets see the specs of that one.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 31 Aug 2017 21:22

Wow

HSLD spec:
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/in ... -bombs.jsp

The HSLD 450 HSLD has Explosive filling of 210 kg for total weight of 450 kg.

EF ratio is 210/450 is ~47% i.e HSLD has higher explosive filling of DENTEX vs Torpex-4B for GP 500

Lets compare Dentex to Torpex-4B
The simplest measure is velocity of detonation. Other complex measures are brisance etc.



TORPEX:


Torpex is one of the explosives developed during this war to be used mainly in under-water ordnance. The original Torpex (Torpex 1) was a mixture of 45% RDX, 37% TNT, 18% Aluminum powder (1% wax added). Torpex 2, which is now being used, is 42% RDX, 40% TNT, 18% Aluminum powder (1% wax added). It is used in mine, torpedo warheads, and depth bombs. Torpex is more sensitive than TNT; its bullet impact and drop test sensitivities are of the same order as those of tetryl. It is quite stable in stowage though it produce gas causing pressure in the case. It is insensitive enough to stand all normal handling. Its melting point is low enough for it to be cast loaded. Its velocity of detonation is 24,000 ft/sec at a density of 1.72. It is 141% as powerful as TNT. Its Laboratory Impact Value is 53. Its Bullet Impact Value is 48. Its color is slate grey




Dentex

HE filling of the bomb is Dentex (RDX/TNT/Aluminium) So looks like DENTEX is similar to Torpex being an Aluminium filled RDX/TNT mixture. Most likely has some stabilizers to allow processing

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 31 Aug 2017 22:03

We also have the 120kg SAAW under development for air-field tasks. Successfully tested too, last year I think. No recent word of status though.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 31 Aug 2017 23:37

hnair wrote:
sas wrote:
Image
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Intricate plumbing points to liquid motor. Looks like a prithvi.


Looks like a PII target. The two engines are similar, including the regenerative cooling (or turbopump exhaust?) manifold ring around the nozzle
Image


Yes that's coolant intake manifold from turbo pump at the divergent portion of the nozzle.

Either Fuel or Oxidizer is used as coolant, but whichever has high specific heat capacity (Cp) and high thermal conductivity (k) gets used as coolant. In majority of the cases it's fuel.

In case of Prithvi's LP motor it uses hypergolic propellant. Fuel is Isomeric Xylidine+Triethylamine and oxidizer is Red Fuming Nitric (RFNA).
Here is the OFB link to Prithvi's hypergolic propellant -->> http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/ex/4.htm

In Prithvi, oxidizer RFNA is almost 70% Nitric acid (HNO3), which has a Cp and k values of 2000J/kg.K and 0.29W/m.K respectively and fuels Xylidine+Triethylamine, not able to get their exact Cp and k values, but it is likely that the net values of Cp and k for fuel composition is likely to exceed Cp and k values of oxidizer RFNA. Hence it's safe to assume that 50%Xylidine+50%Triethylamine compositions is used as regenerative coolant. Cp and k values can be obtained from this link -->> http://webserver.dmt.upm.es/~isidoro/dat1/eLIQ.pdf

Prithvi's liquid motor design was based on USSR's Isayev design bureau's S2.711 LP motor. Isayev's LP motor designs always employed hypergolic propellant of German composition named "TONKA" -->> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonka_(fuel)

Isayev S2.711V2 picture
Image
^^^ Left side pic shows milled grooves run along the entire length of the nozzle up to head end plate, these milled grooves are used as coolant channels for distributing regenerative coolant from intake manifold up to head end plate. Right side is a cross-section of same LP motor.

Prithvi's LP motor based on Isayev's design
Image
^^^ In case of Prithvi's LP motors it doesn't have any milled grooves as coolant channels, instead it employs a blanket surface covering over the exterior wall of the nozzle and regenerative coolant is passed between them from intake manifold. Here coolant covering the exterior surface of the nozzle up to head end dish acts as an adiabatic wall, absorbing all the heat from nozzle surface and CC.
Last edited by sas on 01 Sep 2017 00:58, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 31 Aug 2017 23:43

Image

^^^^^^
Looks like those perforations are from bearing shrapnel.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2017 23:44

i read on brf long ago that flankers have a complex cooling system that uses fuel flows to cool like above.
do all fighters use such technique? most seem to have bleed air for exhaust cooling.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby VinodTK » 31 Aug 2017 23:59

IAF postpones trial series of Astra BVR Missile due to bad weather
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has postponed the trial series of visual range air-to-air Astra missile due to bad weather on Thursday.{I thought Astra was BVR}

The missile was initially scheduled to be fired from Abdul Kalam island test range, an island off the coast of Odisha on Wednesday.

The trial series will decide if the missile can be inducted into the armed forces by the end of 2017.

According to defence sources, the missile developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would be fired from Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft targeting an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV).

The tests are aimed at validating the seeker of the missile. In other words, Astra series will assist missiles to track and locate targets.

The seeker has been fitted with weapon systems and is being put on trial for the second time.

The first successful trial of the missile was conducted in December 2016.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 01 Sep 2017 00:07

Singha wrote:i read on brf long ago that flankers have a complex cooling system that uses fuel flows to cool like above.
do all fighters use such technique? most seem to have bleed air for exhaust cooling.


For avionics it's mostly bleed air.In some cases liquid coolants are used. Aircraft engines are both liquid and air cooled. Engine exhaust it's mostly heatsink tiles or ablative cooling. Solid rocket nozzles it's ablative cooling.

Unlike aircrafts, in LP motors, designers choice for an effective coolant is limited. One has to simply opt between fuel or oxidizer based on their Density, Specific heat capacity and Thermal conductivity.

For aircraft's, designers choice of coolant and pumping system can be employed.
Last edited by sas on 01 Sep 2017 22:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 01 Sep 2017 01:30

Sas,
Can you compare the Prithvi engine to the SA-2 Guideline engine?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 01 Sep 2017 09:31

Surprise, Surprise.

MPATGM is going to sport TVC.

A jet vane thrust vector control (JVTVC) system is being developed for MPATGM. Four pure tungsten jet vanes are assembled to shroud and kept in the nozzle exhaust at 900 to each other. By tilting jet vanes w.r.t. to nozzle exhaust flow direction, a force normal to jet vane is produced. The jet vane assembly is made by in-situ moulding of jet vane, sleeve and actuator pins together with Glass Filled Phenol Formaldehyde (GFPF).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 01 Sep 2017 10:57

Indranil wrote:Surprise, Surprise.

MPATGM is going to sport TVC.

A jet vane thrust vector control (JVTVC) system is being developed for MPATGM. Four pure tungsten jet vanes are assembled to shroud and kept in the nozzle exhaust at 900 to each other. By tilting jet vanes w.r.t. to nozzle exhaust flow direction, a force normal to jet vane is produced. The jet vane assembly is made by in-situ moulding of jet vane, sleeve and actuator pins together with Glass Filled Phenol Formaldehyde (GFPF).


Wow. Is this one NAG based or a new design..?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 01 Sep 2017 13:23

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:Surprise, Surprise.

MPATGM is going to sport TVC.



Wow. Is this one NAG based or a new design..?


Nag man portable.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 01 Sep 2017 14:02

All this is fine but where are the design drawing of the beauty. We want to see it fly.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 01 Sep 2017 14:51

Thakur_B wrote:
JayS wrote:
Wow. Is this one NAG based or a new design..?


Nag man portable.


Mango questions.

- Can this NAG manpad be used against helis, out of the box or may be with slight mods..? Or would it need redesign..?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 01 Sep 2017 17:14

Shatrujeet page in FB has a video of a Turkish Cobra heli being broken into 2 by a Kurdish launched Igla.

Do watch it

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jamwal » 01 Sep 2017 19:57

Thanks sas and ramana saars
Sum ji
Kindly post links

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudhan » 01 Sep 2017 20:26

VinodTK wrote:IAF postpones trial series of Astra BVR Missile due to bad weather
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has postponed the trial series of visual range air-to-air Astra missile due to bad weather on Thursday.{I thought Astra was BVR}


DDM at play.

Multiple articles pointed out that the currently planned tests use indigenous seekers. That's great news!

Wonder if its specs are better than the agat seeker it replaces.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 01 Sep 2017 21:32

jamwal wrote:Thanks sas and ramana saars
Sum ji
Kindly post links

Sorry could not post initially since on mobile.

Anyways, found that the video is on youtube also:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jamwal » 01 Sep 2017 22:45

:shock:
Amazing. Pilots probably didn't even knew what hit them

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 01 Sep 2017 22:49

ramana wrote:Sas,
Can you compare the Prithvi engine to the SA-2 Guideline engine?


Sir, In a day or two, I can collate all the required data on Prithvi's LP motor vs SA2's S2.711.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 01 Sep 2017 22:56

/ot. Am I the only one who noticed the similarity of the spoken numerals in the video to Hindu numerals.. Some sounded like Sanskrit numerals.. Shasht, Sapt.. :-)

Would a MAWS+flares have helped the chopper in this case?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Sep 2017 23:11

Hopefully all our helicopters have self protection flares and lasers so they don't suffer similarly

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 01 Sep 2017 23:32

Don't these choppers have missile warning system? I saw few videos of Russian helis going down in similar way, the pilot didn't seem to take any evasive action to dodge missile or deploy flares and chaff.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby fanne » 02 Sep 2017 01:15

missile warning against Infra red system

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2017 07:19

sum wrote:
Anyways, found that the video is on youtube also:


The guy says "Asht" for "eight". Definite Sanskrit derived, but OT

The missile takes 5 seconds to hit the helo - no time to react. It was at close range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 02 Sep 2017 08:14

Actually entire counting from 1 to 10 sounded hindi to me.


No wonder our Mi17s were useless once stingers came into play in kargil

Also who supplied Iglas to the kurds? Even in our worst proxy war days, SAMs never came into play in Kashmir or NE

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 02 Sep 2017 10:16

Captured during gulf war? From Iraqi stocks perhaps.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jamwal » 02 Sep 2017 10:17

Arabic numerals are directly derved from Indian, so there will be similarities.

It seems like that the missile has a fair amount of recoil too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2017 10:33

potentially there are black markets in eastern europe. or maybe cheeni clones sold on cash and carry basis by red princes.
syrian army stocks could have fallen into black market when govt retreated from east and armouries looted by the 'rebels' and YPGJ. PKK vets are known to be helping the YPGJ in raqqa.

there are other videos too but none so clear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-q2GlPnwq0

here a chinook gets taken out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-q2GlPnwq0

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Sep 2017 11:23

jamwal wrote:Arabic numerals are directly derved from Indian, so there will be similarities.

It seems like that the missile has a fair amount of recoil too.


The Numerals the Kurd said were much closer than arabs, like 4 he said as CHar. Arab numerals generally Wahab, Seth, Talata, Araba, Humsa.......

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2017 11:33

sum wrote:No wonder our Mi17s were useless once stingers came into play in kargil


Not really Mi-17 continued it high altitude attack inspite of Stingers and Anza , At high altitude narrow space IAF fighter with its speed had difficulty hitting targets compared to choppers with slower speed , The only reason they managed to shoot one of our Mi-17 is because the Flares did not work , the pilot knew he was under attack but flares jammed and did not work.

But there is no substitute to MAWS/Flares/IR Jammers and RF Self Defence jammers on all IAF Choppers Fighter and Transport aircraft .....without it its only pilot intuition or hunch that makes him believe he is under attack and fires flares randomly ...... one could easily loose a million dollar aircraft to a 100 thousand dollars Manpads ......... I have been saying this for quite long

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2017 13:18

https://www.omniglot.com/language/numbers/persian.htm
Numeral Transliteration (Persian) فارسى
۰ sefr صفر 0
۱ yek یک 1
۲ do دو 2
۳ seh سه 3
۴ chahaar چهار 4
۵ panj پنج 5
۶ shesh شش 6
۷ haft هفت 7
۸ hasht هشت 8
۹ noh نه 9
۱۰ dah ده 10
۱۱ yazdah یازده 11
۱۲ davaazdah دوازده 12
۱۳ sizdah سیزده 13
۱۴ chahaardah چهارده 14
۱۵ poonzdah پانزده 15
۱۶ shoonzdah شانزده 16
۱۷ hivdah هفده 17
۱۸ hijdah هجده 18
۱۹ noonzdah نوزده 19
۲۰ bist بیست 20

there are sounds which are very different too like 3, 13, 17, 18, 19

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2017 13:19

kurds are not arabic. they are more closer to the persian-turkic anatolian belt which was fought over for centuries by greece, persia, ottomans etc. there are kurds in syria, turkey, iraq, iran and possible georgia and azerbaijan also.

i would imagine sanskrit, hindi, urdu, farsi have some strong ancient links ?


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