Artillery: News & Discussion

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sanjayc
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by sanjayc »

Defence ministry retires 13 babus for non-performance

Group-A officers from Ordnance Factory Service asked to leave; the move is part of larger plan to cut the flab.
The defence ministry has forcibly retired a set of bureaucrats for non-performance, after a detailed screening process found them unfit to continue in government service. The strong step — the first to be taken at such a scale by the ministry — will see 13 babus from the Indian Ordnance Factories Service (IOFS) retire early.

The ministry said that the government officers have been retired “in public interest due to their overall unsatisfactory performance”. The retirement is part of a larger government policy to cut the flab and punish officers found unfit for duty to open up vacancies for younger staff.

While there were instances in the past, of junior level bureaucrats and officials getting compulsory retirement, this is for the first time that the government has effected a mass retirement of Group-A service officers, who were selected through a rigorous central screening process is unusual.

The Ordnance Factory Board, which still makes most of the ammunition being used by the armed forces, has come under criticism by audit bodies as well as the military for non-performance, inferior quality of production and repeated failure to meet timelines. The IOFS service leads the 39 ordnance factories that employ close to one lakh employees across the nation.

As reported, in a set of new reforms, described as the biggest post-independence, over 57,000 Army personnel are being redeployed from non-core duties like postal service and military farms to combat-oriented duties.

The restructuring includes shutting down of military farms, optimising signal units and reforming the National Cadet Corps (NCC) and will be completed by 2019.

The reforms to cut down flab are the first stage in larger plans to improve the “teeth to tail ratio” — the number of personnel in active combat role in relation to support units that facilitate the frontline.
http://theprint.in/2017/08/31/defence-m ... rformance/
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

Who is this nam guy man , breath of fresh air nice and clear thoughts . Mian did you go to LMU ?
ashishvikas
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ashishvikas »

Snag dogging Indian howitzer seen in original Bofors too

NAGPUR: Preliminary findings of the probe into the muzzle hit, a malfunction which has been dogging the Dhanush, Indian version of Bofors howitzers, say the incident was due to defect in the shell. During both test fires in May and July, a shell hit the gun's muzzle.

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/nagpur/s ... 298344.cms
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

ashishvikas wrote:Snag dogging Indian howitzer seen in original Bofors too

NAGPUR: Preliminary findings of the probe into the muzzle hit, a malfunction which has been dogging the Dhanush, Indian version of Bofors howitzers, say the incident was due to defect in the shell. During both test fires in May and July, a shell hit the gun's muzzle.

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/nagpur/s ... 298344.cms
So what was the defect that has persisted so long since the Bofors gun?

Could you please post the full text as it could have lots of details.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Not to blow my trumpet but I too concluded fro open sources that it was the shell and not the gun !!!

viewtopic.php?p=2190821#p2190821
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Two good news stories

BAE, BEML, GCF OFB tie up to mtg M777 155mm 52 cal gun. MOU being signed

https://twitter.com/shishiraryaTOI/stat ... 2744590337

CBI crack fake Chinese bearings for Dhanush case.

https://twitter.com/shishiraryaTOI/stat ... 4534416386

Best part they have signed with OEM to get bearings for Dhanush.

Now that the shell is the issue, soon expect Dhanush production.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ Wait ? M777ER ? no way.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote: CBI crack fake Chinese bearings for Dhanush case.

https://twitter.com/shishiraryaTOI/stat ... 4534416386

Best part they have signed with OEM to get bearings for Dhanush.

Now that the shell is the issue, soon expect Dhanush production.
Chinese bearings vs german
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RepARd6db7c
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

If the fh77 had this issue. Then does it mean that identification of a identical problem in dhanush. Will mean that it is cleared for production

Or I'm jumping to completely unwarranted conclusion.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JayS »

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Wait ? M777ER ? no way.
May be DDM at work. Looks like 45cal version contract only, under Off-set. Has the ER version even cleared for production...?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Ashokk »

ramana wrote:
CBI crack fake Chinese bearings for Dhanush case.

https://twitter.com/shishiraryaTOI/stat ... 4534416386

Best part they have signed with OEM to get bearings for Dhanush.

Now that the shell is the issue, soon expect Dhanush production.
I wonder what kind of background checks OFB does. CRB Antriebstechnik, the company which supplied the chinese bearings, states this on its website - „Buying slewing bearings in Germany at prices from China without losing a certain quality standard.” That was the basic idea of the company founder Liuzhao Cai many years ago.
This should have raised red flags straight away.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

ramana wrote:Not to blow my trumpet but I too concluded fro open sources that it was the shell and not the gun !!!

viewtopic.php?p=2190821#p2190821
Indeed a very accurate forecast. Paucity of time prevented me from congratulating you then itself.

To add my meager bits to an excellent analysis -

1. Whenever a new gun is developed, new ammunition needs to be developed as well. Using ammunition designed for older systems does not leverage newer capabilities, and sometimes may present safety hazards (shell getting armed spinning inside the longer barrel itself). Driving Bands can be of materials better than copper. ArmenT gave an excellent description of matching ammunition to firearm in Small Arms thread - it applies to artillery too.

2. Ammunition manufacturing, transport and storage is abysmal in Ordnance Factories and Indian Army Central Ordnance Depots or for that matter every service. We use WW2 or even older vintage storage created by the British for their colonial wars around the subcontinent. Pakistan is much better in this respect having modern US designed and built facilities that US planned to the use for themselves in the cold war. We realized after Su-30MKI induction on the need to modernize airfields and started the MAFI project after Su-30MKI degraded being exposed to elements unable to fit pens built for MiG-21s. The US C-130 & C-17 projects came with modernization of Hindon AFS.

3. We have still not grasped the system concept. The artillery gun is part of larger system comprising surveillance, target acquisition, engineering, ammunition, logistics, and the rest of the components of the system need to be developed/upgraded as well.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

ramana wrote:BAE, BEML, GCF OFB tie up to mtg M777 155mm 52 cal gun. MOU being signed https://twitter.com/shishiraryaTOI/stat ... 2744590337
Thakur_B wrote:^^ Wait ? M777ER ? no way.
JayS wrote:May be DDM at work. Looks like 45cal version contract only, under Off-set. Has the ER version even cleared for production...?
That is not good news. From the link itself,
Nagpur: After supplying the M777 ultralight howitzers to the Indian Army, multinational weapons maker BAE Systems will now be tying up with the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to make 155x52mm artillery guns. The OFB, which has already developed the Indian 155x45mm guns based on the Bofors howitzers, will make a superior version with BAE.

The first batch of the M777 guns was recently delivered to the Army from the US. Due to its light weight, it can be shifted easily and even transported by helicopter. Now BAE, OFB, and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) plan to together make the 155x52 calibre of guns.

The OFB has at present made Dhanush — the indigenous 155x45 mm howitzer with a higher range than the original Bofors. The new gun being planned to be made along with BAE Systems will have a superior range than even Dhanush, on account of the higher calibre.
This propaganda masterpiece with content provided by BAe Marketing weaves M777 with 155x52 gun.

BAe M777 is made by erstwhile Vickers in UK and thereafter development moved to US for 52 caliber version.

BAe also purchased Bofors that sold us FH-77B02 39 caliber artillery. Thereafter Bofors made a FH-77B05 52 caliber artillery that is used on wheeled Archer system and whose APU mounted version was offered via Mahindra in 2010 for IA towed howitzer tender.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/united_ ... es_uk.html
The FH 77B05 L52 is a further development of the successful FH 77B02 L39 howitzer system. The system meets or supersedes all requirements for a modern, towed artillery system, which is made possible through a number of improvements. The BAE Systems FH77 B05 is bidding for the Indian Army requirement for towed 52cal 155mm howitzers. The new upgraded howitzer, FH77 B05, has all round greater performance including increased range over the 39cal FH77 B02. It is intended that Defence Land Systems India would have a significant and increasing role in the production of FH77 B05, toward the intended goal of Defence Land Systems India becoming an artillery centre of excellence in India. The FH77 B05 meets and exceeds specifications in the Indian environment (winter and summer) and has already been proven in earlier trials in India. The FH77 B05 will be manufactured and marketed in India by Defense Land Systems India, BAE's joint venture with Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. One of the most important attributes of the Field Howitzer 77B05 is the high rate of fire, i.e. its ability to fire a great number of rounds in a specified time, and MRSI (Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact). The FH77 B05 has been optimized and tested to be used in extreme weather conditions, including the desert and higher altitudes.
Now with Dhanush developed and ATAGS well in development, BAe has tied up with OFB to sell FH-77B05 52 caliber artillery.

Bad news for ATAGS if this offer is taken up.

Lastly, refer bold part of quote, B05 has undergone the winter & summer trials with no orders :D for the benefit of those alleging foreign systems not tested rigourously.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Exactly. By the way, please check your PM.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JayS »

tsarkar wrote:Bad news for ATAGS if this offer is taken up.
Hm. If what you say is correct, the question then comes to my mind is, why GOI is allowing this partnership with BAe to happen for 52cal gun..? Since OFB is not an autonomous body, this could not have been done without the approval of MoD/GOI. We already are making ATAGS and BF is embarked on making M777-like ultra-light howitzer which can be ER-ed when ready. So we have two good options coming up in normal as well as possible ULH category. If GOI is fully concentrated on desi option, it absolutely makes zero sense to push OFB to go for another partnership. And being OFB, its particularly dangerous option, as we know the lobbying of OFB vs Pvt can derail any well-meaning program easily. Is GOI looking to bring more options or vested interests in MoD trying to derail ATAGS..?? :-?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

^^
ATAGS represents a significant threat to OFB, so its capitalizing on its FH-77B02/Dhanush/FH-77B05 business. Will save it the pain of developing a 52 caliber version from scratch.

For GoI/MoD, it serves the noble purpose of bringing one more option on the table.

For politician approving the MoU, its a carrot to BAe using which they can extract at the very least donation to their political party immediately.

For bureaucrat, he is able to stay relevant by spinning around. Or a study tour abroad at the least.

Given the alignment below, it gives any politician significant leverage. The returns are huge and the right corporation would be happy making the right investment.

DRDO + Tata + Kalyani - ATAGS
Tata - Denel
Kalyani - Austrian towed
Kalyani - Soltam wheeled
Mahindra - BAe USA
OFB - BAe Sweden
Punj Lloyd - Singapore Technology Kinetics
L&T - Samsung Techwin
BEML - Czech/Slovak Zuzana/Himalaya

And as Ajai rightly pointed out in case of Akash, any new manufacturer (Akash, ATAGS) must amortize tooling and other capex costs, so would be expensive

Any existing production line (M777, K-9) would've already amortized those costs and would be cheaper.

Sometimes I wonder its a miracle when something happens right in our country, given the sheer weight of vested interests.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by deejay »

Indranil wrote:^^^ Exactly. By the way, please check your PM.
Check forum feedback thread please.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

Same here, Indranil.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Folks

Read the TOI artticle about the Bofors 155/52 gun carefully. It is a mounted gun, not a towed one that they are offering, hence not in competition with ATAGS.

In this mounted gun the gun designer will be BAE/ Bofors, gun manufacturer will be OFB, and the vehicle will be TATRA supplied by BEML.

This one will compete against mounted guns from L&T, Tata and others.

I am surprised BAE did not go with Mahindra on this one.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Has BEML indegenised any components in Yarra or is it mostly Czech with screwdriver giri
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

Skd kit assembly
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

Snag dogging Indian howitzer seen in original Bofors too

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 298344.cms

data accessed by TOI shows that as many as 40 incidents of muzzle hit have been reported even in the original Swedish Bofors. This took place after the Army had inducted the gun. The findings into these incidents blamed the shell for the malfunction.

Data shows that the incident is also seen in guns of other makes, apart from 155mm howitzers like Bofors and Dhanush. Even in the 130mm guns with the Army, as many as 60 cases of muzzle hit have been reported.
So, what is still under data-coverup is what type/size/make/quality of shells that failed in almost all of these failures? For obvious reasons, they don't want to put that out in public. We have to dig that data now
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JayS »

Kakkaji wrote:Folks

Read the TOI artticle about the Bofors 155/52 gun carefully. It is a mounted gun, not a towed one that they are offering, hence not in competition with ATAGS.

In this mounted gun the gun designer will be BAE/ Bofors, gun manufacturer will be OFB, and the vehicle will be TATRA supplied by BEML.

This one will compete against mounted guns from L&T, Tata and others.

I am surprised BAE did not go with Mahindra on this one.
Indeeed. Thanks for pointing out. It was very odd if it were a towed gun.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

I hope rather than this Tatra stuff it gets mounted on a TATA truck, I think after the learnings from Pinaka etc, we can develop Fire control Radar etc. This Tatra Truck plus Bofors is anther import with Back to back billing from DPSU.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

while there is mention of soft recoil systems for 105mm guns, so far nobody mentioned that on the 155mm guns, even from such a long list...
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Indranil wrote:^^^ Exactly. By the way, please check your PM.
How do I reply to PM? My email ID is [email protected]
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

tsarkar, Naval guns are usually 55 calibers i.e. long barrel

Have there been no cases of barrel burst in naval guns or the gunnery doesn't get as intense as shore artillery?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

ramana wrote:tsarkar, Naval guns are usually 55 calibers i.e. long barrel

Have there been no cases of barrel burst in naval guns or the gunnery doesn't get as intense as shore artillery?
Naval guns burst too, however, most of the time and gun and ammunition are matched to each other, and since there is no weight constraint on ships vis-a-vis land systems, they have a whole lot of safeties and automation built in described in detail here.

http://www.baesystems.com/en/download-e ... 687963.pdf

Since number of guns are less (approx 50 guns in whole of IN) vis-a-vis 1000's of land guns, the ammunition manufacture is in small batches with better production automation & QC unlike commodity production with cost cutting measures in high use land guns.

http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/dat ... /lc/13.htm

OFB OTO 76/62 ammunition
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Thanks. Besides IN 76/62 is cartridge system
About 3". Not much chance for ballotting.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ashthor »

vasu raya
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

Thanks for the 101,

originally posted by Singha this 105mm doesn't have a muzzle brake and relies on soft recoil,
http://www.mandusgroup.com/artillery_so ... _105mm.php

perhaps can accomodate imperfect ammunition which is more expensive to fix considering older stocks than developing new tech, then those bimodular charges shownoff recently are smokeless?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Muzzle brake is not the cause of the shell strike.
Besides muzzle brake helps reduce recoil by about a third.
Rest gets absorbed by the recoil system.

Without muzzle brake the recoil system for 155mm becomes huge.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ashishvikas »

World-record 'gun salute' to incoming defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi Sep 05, 2017

http://wap.business-standard.com/articl ... 024_1.html
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Shankk »

ashishvikas wrote:World-record 'gun salute' to incoming defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi Sep 05, 2017

http://wap.business-standard.com/articl ... 024_1.html
Some interesting nuggets from above article.
The 155-millimetre, 52-calibre gun-howitzer fired three shells out to a world-record distance of 47.2 kilometres from the gun position. This was achieved using special, long-range ammunition called “high explosive – base bleed” (HE – BB). In comparison, 155-millimetre, 52-calibre guns in service worldwide fire this ammunition to maximum ranges of 40-45 kilometres.
Earlier, on Saturday, the same gun had broken another record by firing “high explosive – boat tail” (HE – BT) ammunition to a range of 37.2 kilometres.
The secret of the ATAGS longer range is its larger chamber – 25 litres, compared to 23 litres in most 155-millimetre guns like the French Nexter and Israeli Elbit guns the military has evaluated. A larger chamber packs in more high explosive propellant, which shoots out the warhead further.

The need to cater for this higher “shock of firing” makes the ATAGS a heavier gun. It weighs in at 17-18 tonnes, while comparable guns worldwide weigh 14-15 tonnes.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Arjun syndrome kicking in.

Is the extra 2 to 3 tonnes acceptable to Indian Army om the march?

Is 2 km range worth the extra weight?

And the 2t litre chamber consumes more charge. Does it add to logistics trail?

To me the gun looks like a fortress gun.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Record breaking stuff from the ATAGS team. AoA !!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

well the cat is out of bag now...4 tons heavier tauba tauba ... no titanium tauba tauba .. extra charges needed tauba tauba

i can see the shadows of import hawks swooping in with talons up

someone will right away demand a weight reducion of 3t while keeping the chamber.

from link above- the vast sum of money just in capex and then in opex over 30 yrs ensure none but Namo can save ATAGS from the hawks talons. its just too ripe a plate of meat for lutyens hawks not to pounce on
After the gun successfully completes development and firing trials, the army is likely to procure at least 2,000 ATAGS. At an estimated Rs 15 crore apiece, that will result in Rs 30,000 crore in business for the production eco-system, benefiting a large number of private defence firms.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

however Ramana, the extra cost of the 25 liter chamber charges over 23 liter might be minimal over the higher cost of base bleed / RAP shells over vanilla shells. thats a suitable soln for saving money.
http://www.pmulcahy.com/ammunition/howitzer_rounds.html
155mm NATO WP ERFB-BB: Weight: 45.4 kg; Price: $1115 (S/R)
155mm NATO WP RAP: Weight: 49.15 kg; Price: $1090 (C/S)
155mm NATO ERFB-BB HE: Weight: 47.77 kg; Price: $715 (S/R)
155mm NATO HE: Weight: 43.88 kg; Price: $440 (C/S)

cost is 2x or 3x lower for non-BB/RAP shells. charges are likely very cheap in comparison.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

for those who speak of GPS guided smart shells, the excalibur started off at $150,000 *each* and may have dropped to around $40,000 now.

for that money we can buy 100 basic shells and flatten a whole village on the side.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Singha wrote:for those who speak of GPS guided smart shells, the excalibur started off at $150,000 *each* and may have dropped to around $40,000 now.

for that money we can buy 100 basic shells and flatten a whole village on the side.

True, but some times a single shell hitting in the first salvo has a greater impact than a whole battery firing for hrs and scoring just a single hit.
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