Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[Kersi]

Well given our past experiences 1965 and 1971, Pathankot 25km from the border comes with very little reaction time to defend and always has been subject to special attention by PAF, Kangra Airport 55KM from Pathankot can be used as offensive operations in the same theatre, especially to cover Islamabad Peshawer, Chamb Jourian sector etc.

Chandigarh, Ambala et al are good 200KM away from Pathankot.

Amritsar air base is less than 30 km from IB. Pathankot AFB is less than 60 km. Thus spake Aunty Wikimapia

[Aditya_V]

PathanKot AFB is less than 25Km from IB

[ramana]

But I see the future more automated and less seat of pants. That said - the sad Mi 17 accident shows that no computer may be able to prevent some incidents and developing pilot skills to react to dire emergencies is important. Let me once again remark that unlike forum myths where it is assumed that "war is stressful for pilots" and flying is otherwise an easy joyride - that is simply not true. Flying itself induces a lot of physical and mental stresses and a war situation increases the workload.

These three will be pioneers in IAF.

[Austin]

How IAF airman fell victim to Pakistani honeytrap

[JayS]

How IAF airman fell victim to Pakistani honeytrap

Reading the article its seems the guy was clearly was in it for money. How is this a honeytrap..?

[Rakesh]

Moved to IAF History Thread....

[ramana]

Shouldn't this be in the IAF history thread?

[Rakesh]

Good point, I will move this there and delete my post.

[brar_w]

India informs US it’s ready to buy ISTAR aircraft from Raytheon

NEW DELHI ― India has made an official request to purchase two ISTAR aircraft under a government-to-government deal. The move comes within a month of U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis’ visit to India.

A formal letter of request was sent to the U.S. Defense Department earlier this month expressing intent to procure two intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance aircraft via the Foreign Military Sales program, a Ministry of Defense official said.

“This is a priority program, as many of the [Indian Air Force’s] surveillance programs have been delayed,” the MoD official said.

The ISTAR aircraft is a critical requirement and will be operated by the Air Force, the official noted, adding that the deal is estimated to cost $1 billion.

ISTAR aircraft will be supplied by Raytheon of the U.S. on a Gulfstream platform.The MoD also constituted a joint committee comprising of scientists from the Defence Research and Development Organization, officials from the Air Force, and MoD officials. The aircraft acquisition is expected to be expedited. The committee will finalize the mission software and critical equipment for the ISTAR aircraft.

Raytheon has provided a classified briefing on the ISTAR aircraft program to related agencies in India. Raytheon executives in India were unavailable for comment.

[Rakesh]

U.S. to extend C-17 offer to India
https://www.stratpost.com/u-s-extend-c-17-offer-india/

Why do things take forever to sign? Why?

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/saurabhjoshi/status ... 4837583872 --> 2nd Sqn of MiG-29 upgraded aircraft will be established this Air Force Day - ACM Dhanoa

[Rakesh]

Best wishes & compliments of IDS to all the Air Warriors on the 85th Anniversary of the Air Force & Air Force Day.
https://twitter.com/hq_ids_india/status ... 7462299648

[Karthik S]

U.S. to extend C-17 offer to India
https://www.stratpost.com/u-s-extend-c-17-offer-india/

Why do things take forever to sign? Why?

That too after applying political pressure.

[JayS]

^^ I think we need to privatize the Government itself...

[Vips]

IAF flags concerns about Fifth Generation Fighter deal.

[Prem]

[ramana]

I have a question.
First Pratt and Whitney complains its engines get worn out in Indian weather conditions.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Indust ... 9.ece/amp/

What exactly?

Pratt & Whitney has informed the Directorate General of Civil Aviation that Indian climatic conditions are primarily responsible for snags encountered in its engines fitted in Airbus A320 new engine option planes.

The American aircraft engine manufacturer has said that weather conditions unique to India such as high humidity, heat and saltiness due to the ocean were causing problems to A320neo plane engines, sources said.

“We saw some early distress on our PW1100G-JM engine combustor panels, primarily in the challenging environment of India. Modifications were implemented mid-last year and improvements are on track to be introduced by the end of this year,” Pratt & Whitney sources told The Hindu.


‘Traffic disruptions’

The Pratt & Whitney engines on Airbus’ fuel-efficient A320neo planes have encountered issues in two components — the combustor chamber lining and the No. 3 bearing seal — that start to wear out sooner than expected. The engines need to be replaced much earlier than in the normal replacement cycle. This has led to some air traffic disruptions as low-cost carriers IndiGo and GoAir using A320neo planes with Pratt & Whitney engines continue to face snags. The airlines had complained about the slow pace of engine replacements.

GoAir had said last week that of its six A320neo planes, one was grounded. IndiGo’s five planes are parked at present due to lack of engine spares. IndiGo has 141 A320s, of which 24 are A320 neos. IndiGo has signed a contract with Pratt & Whitney for the first 150 planes out of 430 A320 neo planes on order.

Although the A320neo fitted with P&W engines has faced problems globally too, sources said the premature degradation of the engine’s combustor chamber lining is a unique glitch faced in India due to its climate.

The engine maker is now building an improved design to replace all the engines for all airlines, sources said. “Since March, new engines and overhauled engines have incorporated improvements that have enhanced the engine’s durability. We have increased spare engine deliveries as well as overhauled engine returns with this improved design which should help to stabilise the current fleet,” sources in P&W said.

Does the IAF face similar engine wear issues for the numerous airplanes they have some of which have US made engines?

What exactly is the issue for the combustor and the bearing seals? Excess humidity with salt exposure causing corrosion?

Indranil can you research this corrosion issue that P&W faced? Are there papers published on this?

[shiv]

Does the IAF face similar engine wear issues for the numerous airplanes they have some of which have US made engines?

What exactly is the issue for the combustor and the bearing seals? Excess humidity with salt exposure causing corrosion?

Indranil can you research this corrosion issue that P&W faced? Are there papers published on this?

Ramana yes - I have heard about "Indian atmospheric conditions" in the past. This was in the context of engine manufacturers initially blaming the IAF for improper usage and trying to weasel away - but gradually it became clear that Indian conditions were different. The main fallout was in terms of what parts to inspect and what frequency to inspect them at.

Acknowledging that it is atmospheric conditions and not brown monkey pilots who do not know how to fly (a comment that I still see on my YouTube channel) is a step forward. I had mentioned long ago about Wingco Suresh telling me about extremely clear dust free skies over Europe and the USA where objects were visible 10 km away, compared to India where the visibility was much less due to haze and particulate matter.

[Indranil]

Yes. Nothing new.

[Kartik]

https://twitter.com/saurabhjoshi/status/915830134837583872 --> 2nd Sqn of MiG-29 upgraded aircraft will be established this Air Force Day - ACM Dhanoa

As per Angad Singh, that will be No.47 'Black Archers'

[Rakesh]

Awesome. Thanks Kartik. Was No 28 'First Supersonics' the numero uno squadron to be established with upgraded MiG-29s?

[Rakesh]

India informs US it’s ready to buy ISTAR aircraft from Raytheon

IAI loses out to Raytheon on Indian ISTAR deal
http://www.aviationpros.com/news/123754 ... istar-deal

India has handed a major blow to Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) (TASE: ARSP.B1) unit ELTA, which had been hoping to win a $1 billion deal to sell two ISTAR (intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition, and reconnaissance) aircraft. IAI had been strong in the running to win the deal after receiving a restricted global request for information from the US government for the acquisition of ISTAR-capable aircraft in 2013. Thales of France, Raytheon and Boeing of the US, and the UK's BAE Systems also received the request. The Indian government has now awarded the procurement to Raytheon.

Defense industry sources had seen IAI as having a major chance of winning the deal due to IAI's strong presence in India. In recent years, IAI has won three major deals from the Indian government: Barak 8 naval defense missiles in two deals worth $2 billion last April and three Phalcon AWACS aircraft worth $1.1 billion in a deal completed in 2010. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's ground breaking visit to Israel in July, several months after the Barak 8 deal was signed, was seen as a further sign that the two Asian powers were forming much closer defense ties. Modi had then declared the opening of a path of partnership with Israel and that India places great importance on Israel's advanced technology.

ELTA had been offering India an ISTAR aircraft similar to the Israel Air Force's Nachshon, which is based on a Gulfstream 550 platform -- the executive jet produced in the US but adapted for ISTAR missions by ELTA. In addition to the Israel Air Force, ELTA has also sold such aircraft to Singapore, according to foreign media reports. According to "US Defense News," India officially asked the Pentagon to go ahead with the Raytheon procurement in early October following the visit of US Defense Secretary Jim Mattis to New Delhi. The visit was designed to strengthen military cooperation between India and the US. In 2016, Barack Obama's final year in office, the US granted India the status of "major defense partner" in an effort to iron out bureaucratic obstacles to future US-India defense deals.

[Karan M]

The US has the best kit in the arena, and two aircraft is a useful, niche capability. I would likely assume the IAF has asked CABS to start working on something similar as well. Once economy picks up, more such ISTAR aircraft may enter the IAF as well.

[pkudva]

I certainly wish this gets concluded soon.

However Indian Bureaucracy is so busy in only pushing the files. I do not know who monitors the Projects & who is held accountable for delay in the conclusion of contracts, Delay in delivery, commissioning & allotment of necessary resources.

Till date other than MP, We have not seen any other RM who has taken interest in each and every Project & has shared his personal vies in every Project. This is what we want where in every meetings Minister should be accountable & put his thoughts for strategic Projects along with PMO.

The Present Dispensation has Ltd Time & India has lot of hopes in the NDA Gvt & we must be hopeful that critical Contracts get concluded soon....to the list of many!!!

[Philip]

http://defenceupdate.in/india-vs-china- ... ng-border/

India Vs China- India steps up arms by approving bomb shelters along border
BY DEFENCEUPDATE · SEPTEMBER 23, 2017

A proposal awaiting government approval since 2015 was strongly backed by the prime minister’s office in the aftermath of the recent border tensions with China.

The Indian government has cleared a proposal for constructing next-generation hardened shelters for aircraft of the Indian Air Force deployed at the eastern and northeastern airfields that border China. The hangars are designed by the state-owned Defense Research and Development Organization.

The Indian Defense Ministry will initially release $150 million of the total estimated cost of $750 million for the proposed shelters, which can withstand missiles and bombs of up to 2,000 pounds.

The proposed shelters would dot forward areas including Leh, Ladakh and the northeastern states and would also cover the newly built advanced landing grounds — Tuting, Mechuka, Along, Passighat, Vijaynagar, and Ziro — along with the India-China border.

Last year, a parliamentary panel on defense raised concerns over the lack of availability of hardened shelters for frontline aircraft such as the Su-30MKI. “The IAF is already short of planes, and worse than that is, hardened shelters are not available for even the limited number of aircraft that is available with the service…The committee desires that there should not be any delay in execution, as such delays have become a common feature of all the projects,” the committee warned in 2016.

The Indian Air Force has already built new weapon storage areas and labs in large numbers in all the forward bases.

It constructed 16 shelters for Su-30 aircraft between 2004 and 2007 capable of withstanding 1,000-pound explosives.

[Thakur_B]

$1billion sounds too low for JSTARS kind of aircraft, it seems to be more in line with Sentinels that RAF had. IAF should also try to buy Sentinels that UK can't decide whether to keep or ditch.

[brar_w]

Of course it is not a JSTARS - The fundamental difference being that it is a "collector" while the JSTARS is the "Collector" and "Analyzer" of the data. The JSTARS-Recap, even with the USAF is only at an RFP submission stage and the two radars are at a prototype stage. The capability Raytheon has presented to multiple customers is based on its work on the UK Sentinels and is just about as advanced a capability a US OEM can market without requiring hundreds of millions to billions of $ to develop something from scratch. JSTARS-Recap has to go through source selection, technology development/EMD, Developmental testing, Operational testing and then IOC/FOC. That is not compatible with the requirements the MOD/IAF handed over to bidders years ago for this program.

Sentinels that UK can't decide whether to keep or ditch.

What does UK MOD budgets and dollars have to do with the IAF and its acquisition plans? The UK can at this very stage also not afford MPA (until early 2020s). Does this mean the IN should not have acquired P-8s? The UK may well decide to mate the AAS on some of its P-8s and re-gain the ASTOR capability if they end up retiring their fleet. A changing budgetary environment is getting them to think about priorities, and with their effort in Afghanistan winding down this is a legitimate area for them to consider downsizing if they have to choose between something they need less in the short-medium term vs something that they may need to modernize quickly.

Unlike the UK, India does not have the liberty to pick and choose which ground campaigns to get involved in and which to pass over since the main strategic threats share a very larger border and aren't separated like is the case with the UK.

$1billion sounds too low for JSTARS kind of aircraft

For ISTAR aircraft based on a business jet it sounds about right. A lot has happened on the electronics side of the industry since the Sentinels were delivered to the UK so expect a lower cost overall for the Dual Mode AESA radar, and other high tech. electronic components.

[Viv S]

What does UK MOD budgets and dollars have to do with the IAF and its acquisition plans? The UK can at this very stage also not afford MPA (until early 2020s). Does this mean the IN should not have acquired P-8s?

I believe Thakur_B was saying was that if the UK decides to retire its Sentinels, India ought to be looking to buy them up. It wasn't a criticism of the IAF's existing plans or what Raytheon's offering.

[Manish_P]

Wish him Good luck in his endevaour

Ace fighter pilot spins a dream for northeast

In his heydays he soared in the sky, broke the sound barrier with impunity and led the first batch of Sukhoi 30s from Russia a couple of decades earlier. Today, he is out to help his state reach the heights in the field of industrialisation.

Meet Group Captain (retired) Mohonto Panging, who since leaving the Air Force, set up a textile factory two years back in Arunachal Pradesh's Pasighat. On November 3, chief minister Pema Khandu will inaugurate his apparel and garment unit, the biggest textile unit in the industrially backward state.

"If you want to be independent, you have to build your own product. This applies to the defence sector as well. Northeast people have always looked down upon the idea of doing business. We have to change this mindset. Everything used in northeast is imported from outside," Panging told TOI.

[Gaur]

20 Air Force Planes To Land On Agra Expressway Tomorrow In Special Drill
According to PRO, Defence (Central Command), Gargi Malik Sinha, the IAF will conduct the aircraft touchdown exercise on the Agra Expressway near Bangarmau in Unnao district.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/lucknow-agra-expressway-to-be-closed-tomorrow-as-indian-air-force-iaf-plans-touchdown-exercise-invol-1765694

"It is for the first time that any transport aircraft will land and then take off (on the highway). The AN-32 are meant for humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. The aircraft can bring a large amount of relief material and can also help in evacuating people," Ms Sinha said.

In all, 20 aircraft including AN-32 transport and fighter planes like Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Sukhoi 30 MKI will take part in the exercise, she said.

[brar_w]

What does UK MOD budgets and dollars have to do with the IAF and its acquisition plans? The UK can at this very stage also not afford MPA (until early 2020s). Does this mean the IN should not have acquired P-8s?

I believe Thakur_B was saying was that if the UK decides to retire its Sentinels, India ought to be looking to buy them up. It wasn't a criticism of the IAF's existing plans or what Raytheon's offering.

Ah. This is what you get when you post something w/o coffee. Anyhow, I guess it would depend upon a number of factors, starting with whether the UK has taken a final decision, or what those timelines look like, and what specifications the Indian MOD request called for. Quite a lot has happened in the electronics department since those aircraft were delivered and/or upgraded so one would have to know the features and capabilities that Raytheon has included as part of its bid to the MOD from both an industrial participation perspective but also a purely capability perspective since it would have been tailored to MOD requirements.

UK puts Sentinel retirement on temporary hold ; Jane's Defence Weekly; September-2016



A six-month reprieve appears to have been granted to put off the retirement of a UK Royal Air Force (RAF) Raytheon Sentinel R1 airborne stand-off radar aircraft.

A senior UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) source revealed the reprieve to IHS Jane's on 6 September, saying the ministry was "considering a decision on the longer-term retention of the Sentinel fleet, including further extension[s]".

RAF chiefs had offered to retire one of the service's five Sentinels this September and to withdraw the remaining four aircraft in 2021 as part of the service's contribution to some GBP11 billion (USD15 billion) in savings to free up money to purchase new capabilities.

Last November's UK Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) did not identify a replacement for the Sentinel, leading to fears a capability gap could emerge until a new wide-area overland surveillance systems could be selected and brought into service.

Speaking at the Farnborough International Airshow in July, Air Commodore Dean Andrew, commander of the RAF's ISTAR Force, revealed he was lobbying to reverse the plans to retire a Sentinel platform, which he said would reduce the wider R1 fleet's ability to collect intelligence in operational theatres, including in Syria and Iraq. He described the Sentinel as "the prime minister's go-to aircraft" in time of crisis.

It now seems these plans for the Sentinel retirement are being re-assessed and the early work to find a replacement has started.

The MoD source said the "future of the fifth [Sentinel] aircraft remains under consideration for both the short and long term. It is likely that it will be retained until the end of the financial year [at the end of March 2017] to provide time for a decision on longer-term plans".

It is getting clear that short of a Global Hawk purchase the UK are likely to look to introduce this capability into their P-8s over time and may well be willing to let go of it for a period of time just as they did with their MPA capability. The AAS is not yet cleared for export, but if and when the JSTARS recap kicks off and is in advanced development the previous gen. AAS could well be opened up for export to them. Given that Raytheon's Archimedes is said to have 90% architecture commonality with the AAS (likely AAS with a GaN upgrade and better processing) it wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine the UK and even some other P-8 customers looking into its older cousin once it is opened up for export regardless of which radar the USAF chooses.

[Ashokk]

[Varoon Shekhar]

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 920705.ece

Sounds good- an entire Sukhoi engine manufactured from the material stage, by HAL.

[Gagan]

OT for this dhaga, but posting this here because it is related:


Most Realistic Air Combat Fighter Game [Amazing Realism - PC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwK4oKIKrts

[Karthik S]

Flankers get shot down in that video.

[Gagan]

FA-18 Fs
One can see deployment of Chaff/Flares, Helmet mounted sight in use by the WSO for targeting IR guided missiles against Su-27 or Su-30Ks. One Su-27 does a pugachev maneuver to get behind their plane

The plane is in communication with the AWACS and when it is in hitting ground targets, it appears that they are in voice communication with some ground troops?
They deploy AGM-65? to take out radar sites, then the WSO lases targets for other planes.

[K_Rohit]

Were these upgraded Mirages (based on nose cone)? and what missiles was one of them carrying?

[Karthik S]

The planes don't touch down initially, come very close to touching down but pull up. Is that to ascertain whether they can touch down or not?

[Chinmay]

Were these upgraded Mirages (based on nose cone)? and what missiles was one of them carrying?

Based on the photos by Angad Singh, they looked like upgraded Mirages. Apparently they were carrying MICAs as well as Remora ECM pods.

[kit]

I have a question.
First Pratt and Whitney complains its engines get worn out in Indian weather conditions.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Indust ... 9.ece/amp/

What exactly?

Pratt & Whitney has informed the Directorate General of Civil Aviation that Indian climatic conditions are primarily responsible for snags encountered in its engines fitted in Airbus A320 new engine option planes.

The American aircraft engine manufacturer has said that weather conditions unique to India such as high humidity, heat and saltiness due to the ocean were causing problems to A320neo plane engines, sources said.

“We saw some early distress on our PW1100G-JM engine combustor panels, primarily in the challenging environment of India. Modifications were implemented mid-last year and improvements are on track to be introduced by the end of this year,” Pratt & Whitney sources told The Hindu.


‘Traffic disruptions’

The Pratt & Whitney engines on Airbus’ fuel-efficient A320neo planes have encountered issues in two components — the combustor chamber lining and the No. 3 bearing seal — that start to wear out sooner than expected. The engines need to be replaced much earlier than in the normal replacement cycle. This has led to some air traffic disruptions as low-cost carriers IndiGo and GoAir using A320neo planes with Pratt & Whitney engines continue to face snags. The airlines had complained about the slow pace of engine replacements.

GoAir had said last week that of its six A320neo planes, one was grounded. IndiGo’s five planes are parked at present due to lack of engine spares. IndiGo has 141 A320s, of which 24 are A320 neos. IndiGo has signed a contract with Pratt & Whitney for the first 150 planes out of 430 A320 neo planes on order.

Although the A320neo fitted with P&W engines has faced problems globally too, sources said the premature degradation of the engine’s combustor chamber lining is a unique glitch faced in India due to its climate.

The engine maker is now building an improved design to replace all the engines for all airlines, sources said. “Since March, new engines and overhauled engines have incorporated improvements that have enhanced the engine’s durability. We have increased spare engine deliveries as well as overhauled engine returns with this improved design which should help to stabilise the current fleet,” sources in P&W said.

Does the IAF face similar engine wear issues for the numerous airplanes they have some of which have US made engines?

What exactly is the issue for the combustor and the bearing seals? Excess humidity with salt exposure causing corrosion?

Indranil can you research this corrosion issue that P&W faced? Are there papers published on this?

serously .. this is just an example of an answer when you really dont know whats going on Mr Pratt & Whitney