Project 75I - It Begins

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Manish_P
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Manish_P » 26 Oct 2017 15:21

Philip wrote:It performed a few tricks and a public demo of its capabilities where even western journos were invited aboard an RU warship to watch the missile launches from two Kilos!

Had it been an RU -NATO spat you can bet your last euro that the RU subs would have never been seen on the surface.This was a demo to the global community of the capabilities of the RU navy.They did the biz and Kilos played an important part in the conflict.There are zilch NATO conv. subs that have the 2000+ land attack capabilities of the Kilo.They do not even have the 300km range of MTCR range restricted Klubs that we possess which one is sure in swift time will have their range similarly extended now that the MTCR does not apply to
us.


You could be right. Although it would seemed more likely if they had invited journos/service folk from allies/prospective clients (maybe they did?!). Maybe they didn't want to risk spooking the US and allied ships or they just wanted to minimise the range of acoustics/signals data which would be exposed.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby JTull » 26 Oct 2017 18:12

Probably OT, but why the difference in range by a factor of 10 between the Klubs on our Kilos compared to those launched by RN's Krasnodar?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 27 Oct 2017 12:13

When we acquired the Klubs,we were not MTCR members.Now that we're aboard,both BMos and Klub should be increased in range.BMos already being tuned to reach ranges from 600-900km! Klub into Kalibir,no idea whether there are some key differences within the missile's frame reg. propulsion,etc.

All subs have a spl. silent running mode,which is rarely if ever exposed in an environment where there are other warships and subs prowling around. In fact,spl. noisemakers to disguise/camouflage the actual signature of the sub are used in peacetime. Actual sonar performance too never revealed . Like a game of poker,sometimes it is better to lose with a winning hand,not to expose yourself to your rival!



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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 29 Oct 2017 02:43




Wouldn’t bother with that. That’s that “my take”stuff where anyone can come up with fanciful wishful thinking. Most of the time it’s in English that doesn’t make sense. I would think the site would have an editor go through it before they post it on the site.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 29 Oct 2017 08:27

Military equipment acquisition by India also has a strategic relationship angle. With Russia under increasing influence of China (China may even have compete control of its foreign policy in the future) and the trust factor with Uncle Sam not being there, India will need to ensure it has the French support (and Veto if it comes to that). We have to remember how France was the only country who stood by us after the 1998 Buddha smile.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 29 Oct 2017 08:45

Some tie ago I had asked why Scorpean sub not be fitted with LiON batteries.

Just stumbled on the http://defense-update.com/20170909_6tbattery.html Lithium Juice for Combat Vehicles.

I am sure that this tech can be adapted in the shape of the classic Exide battery, used on Indian Subs.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 29 Oct 2017 09:45

France made it clear no N-sub tech for us. It is trying to palm off inferior conv. subs that OZ will get.In any case for N-subs and N subs,We appear to have made a deal with Ru.An Indian naval team will be embedded to learn the ropes of N-sub building and later use it back home building our SSN class which is likely to share common features with the latest RU subs.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 29 Oct 2017 10:13

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/923948433253187586 ---> As far as Project 75I is concerned, an Indian SSK design with successively improved 'flights' may be the way forward.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/924222401197490182 ---> The time to set up an empowered Defence Technology Commission is here.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/923945782964756480 ---> India and Japan have to move towards some kind of modern day 'armed neutrality' w.r.t to China to begin with.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/923946806131679233 ---> This needs to be followed up with a proper mutual assistance treaty.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/923946806131679233 ---> It is time to take the groundwork laid by Netaji to its logical conclusion.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 29 Oct 2017 10:17

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/923947447566475269 ---> Japan's counter-OBOR (One Belt, One Road) proposition needs to be examined carefully. But it must fully reflect Indian strategic sensitivities.

Japan to propose strategic dialogue with US, India and Australia: Report
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ar ... 277784.cms

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 29 Oct 2017 13:51

I think that the SSNs will have a greater desi input rather than the 75-Is,taking their cue from the Arihant class.Designing and building smaller subs with greater automation more diff.I know of one co.making a key component for a certain prog.Was happily surprised that it was doing so.It is only after decades of designing and building subs that one can refine the design knowing exactly what materials are best,their sizes,etc.,for components , for a particular design.I recently posted the revolutionary non-acoustic sensors that Ru has developed to detect wakes,radioactivity,chemicals,etc. that subs leave in their trail.Then comes weaponry,decoys ,commn.systems,etc. NHPP scopes,combat systems,rescue pods,acoustic tiles,..the list is endless.Not to mention engines and miniaturised N-plants.

We however should start with building sev. mini subs and research subs to test specialised eqpt.,missile launch systems,propulsion/AIP systems independently of subs meant for the IN's operations.It a requires money but read the latest open statement by a Chin admiral on their naval development programmes for the future,incl. a med. 8000t N-sub,new DDGs,etc.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 29 Oct 2017 16:18

The SAAB A-26 looks to be highly optimized and designed towards only one goal in mind and that is shallow water operation.
The most useful real estate of a sub, the nose where you would want to put a big sonar, A-26 has a hole for dropping frog men. It also has hot bunking unlike scorpene which has seperate bunks. Overall designed for short duration ops.
Considering no working models expecting it to be eliminated early in competition.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 29 Oct 2017 20:06

When did the French say no to helping with the SSN? Haven’t read any reports to that effect.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2017 04:52

There was a report some time ago.Neither is there much interest from our side as our N-sub roadmap is heavily weighted to the "east".Ru Akulas, ATV sub tech., have much in common.An IN team is to travel to Ru to experience building an Akula for us and later SSNs back home.

There is an outside chance of more conv. boats but there are two distinct liabilities.First the leaks about the Scorpenes.It makes little sense to build more.The IN reportedly isn't interested but MDL wants more future sub orders.Secondly the French assurance to OZ that they would "never provide India with the same or superior sub tech " as a guarantee in winning the huge OZ sub contest.
The Germans and Russians are the front-runners.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 30 Oct 2017 13:59

If 3 more scorpenes are built at MDL with desi AIP and adding some MKI masala, it would be having a different signature. It would be painful to see yard idle after 2021. U209 redux.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srai » 30 Oct 2017 21:08

arvin wrote:If 3 more scorpenes are built at MDL with desi AIP and adding some MKI masala, it would be having a different signature. It would be painful to see yard idle after 2021. U209 redux.


Programs lack continuity. What is the point of obtaining so called "ToT" and training people, but then letting their skills and investment wither away? Total waste of money.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 30 Oct 2017 21:29

Didnt see this news dated 24 oct posted here. Added later..Austin already posted link.

https://theprint.in/2017/10/24/first-sc ... -on-order/

Some interesting snippets...

“The Kalvari has both a torpedo and a missile. We have fired the SM 39 and it was very successful on target, exactly as planned. We also have fired the torpedo, which is in service with the Indian Navy,


However, the older SUT torpedoes that are in service with India’s Shishumar-class submarines have been integrated into the Scorpene fleet.


“The Navy said that it needed new features to be integrated into the Scorpene. So we have made a proposal and have presented the Super Scorpene to the Navy and they are happy. Now, MDL will make a formal offer to the Navy,” Buisson said.


So there is hope MDL lines will be active post 2021.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 03 Nov 2017 13:17

First the Scorpene leaks and now the stealing by NoKo of SoKo's German sub details,apart from much else! Does this then give a killer blow to the German U-boat attempt to win the P-75I order? The SCorpene secrets are now in the open market.NoKo,a bumchum of Pak would be very happy...(for a fat fee of course!) to sell the same to the Pakis who would dearly love to get their hands on them as we still operate U-209s which the SoKo navy uses along with later U-boat versions.

X-posted from the Korean td.
North Korean hackers steal warship and submarine blueprints from South Korean shipyard in latest military cyber-theft carried out by Kim Jong-un's regime
Despotic regime thought to have hacked into South's Daewoo Shipbuilding firm

Kyung Dae-soo of the Liberty Korea Party said warship blueprints likely stolen
North Korea routinely accused of cyber attacks but has previously denied them
Daewoo said it was unaware of the issue until yesterday and is now investigating
By Iain Burns For Mailonline
PUBLISHED: 08:24 GMT, 1 November 2017 |
South Korea is 'almost 100 per cent certain' that North Korean hackers have stolen the blueprints for their warships and submarines.

The despotic regime is thought to have taken the documents after hacking into Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co Ltd's database in April last year.

North Korea has often been implicated in cyber attacks in South Korea and elsewhere but Pyongyang has either ignored or denied accusations of hacking.

Daewoo Shipbuilding, which was hacked, has built several South Korean warships, including an Aegis-class vessel and submarines/ Pictured: South Korean navy vessels sailing in the East Sea in September exercises +3

North Korea has often been implicated in cyber attacks in South Korea and elsewhere but Pyongyang has either ignored or denied accusations of hacking. Pictured: North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un celebrates a rocket test in September +3
North Korea has often been implicated in cyber attacks in South Korea and elsewhere but Pyongyang has either ignored or denied accusations of hacking. Pictured: North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un celebrates a rocket test in September

'We are almost 100 per cent certain that North Korean hackers were behind the hacking and stole the company's sensitive documents,' Kyung Dae-soo of the main opposition Liberty Korea Party said yesterday.

Daewoo Shipbuilding has built several South Korean warships, including an Aegis-class vessel and submarines. It was most likely North Korea had obtained blueprints for these, he said.

*(Ha!ha!.NoKo can now sell the sub designs to Taiwan in exchange for billions which it needs! It may also be "kaput" for German U-boats trying toi win our P-75I contest.) :rotfl:

About 40,000 documents are believed to have been taken.

Earlier this month, a different South Korean lawmaker said North Korean hackers had stolen a large number of classified military documents, including South Korea-US wartime operational plans.

The Daewoo hacking was discovered by a division under South Korea's Ministry of Defence in charge of investigating cases of cybercrime, said Kyung, who received a briefing on the investigation.

How sensitive and classified the seized documents were was not known as that was not disclosed by the investigative team, he added.

British authorities said last week they believed North Korea was behind the 'WannaCry' ransomware attack (pictured) in May that disrupted businesses and government services worldwide, including the National Health Service in England

A spokeswoman for Daewoo Shipbuilding said she was unaware of the issue until early yesterday and the company was in the process of confirming the details of Kyung's remarks.

The investigative team came to the conclusion North Korea had hacked Daewoo Shipbuilding because the hacking method was very similar to other attacks that North Korea was thought to be behind, Kyung said.

Hackers in North Korea are believed to have been responsible for a recent cyber heist in Taiwan - the latest in a string of hacks targeting the global SWIFT messaging system.

British authorities said last week they believed North Korea was behind the 'WannaCry' ransomware attack in May that disrupted businesses and government services worldwide, including the National Health Service in England.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4xLuL2m8j
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Nov 2017 13:40

Has this been posted before was not aware of this

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/scorpene-submarines-to-get-indian-aip-modules/article19700162.ece

Even as the Navy gets ready to induct its first conventional submarine in almost two decades, sources have confirmed that a decision has been reached on an expensive and time consuming process to install Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) modules on the six new Scorpene submarines to be inducted over the next few years.


All six Scorpenes will get an Indian AIP. It will be installed by the Original Equipment Manufacturer, Naval Group,” a Navy source confirmed.


The first Scorpene submarine Kulvari has completed all trials and is ready for induction either by this month-end or early next month. It would go for a normal refit after six years, in 2023.

The DRDO has assured that the system will be fully ready by then for integration, the source added.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 03 Nov 2017 14:00

Yes,this was posted recently.AIP systems during first refits though,10 yrs down the line.P-75Is to also come with the desi AIP system.However,we don't have any spare subs for installing this system for trials.We'll have to fit it aboard a barge,etc. for actual tests UW,but it an't replicate a real sub operating at 300M+ depths. The IN must demand extra moolah for experimental subs just as many other navies do,or keep the retiring subs for the same purpose. Mini-midget subs can be built for specialist purposes too,to try out sonars,weapons,etc.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kersi » 03 Nov 2017 15:14

Philip wrote:Yes,this was posted recently.AIP systems during first refits though,10 yrs down the line.P-75Is to also come with the desi AIP system.However,we don't have any spare subs for installing this system for trials.We'll have to fit it aboard a barge,etc. for actual tests UW,but it an't replicate a real sub operating at 300M+ depths. The IN must demand extra moolah for experimental subs just as many other navies do,or keep the retiring subs for the same purpose. Mini-midget subs can be built for specialist purposes too,to try out sonars,weapons,etc.


On of the old Foxtrot class, maybe INS Vela, was used for the trials of the Pachendriya system

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby uddu » 03 Nov 2017 18:02

Once Scorpene subs enter service old subs will be decommissioned. We could use those.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Nov 2017 19:35

^^^Noko hackers:

"In others, researchers believe they are now physically stationed in countries like India, where nearly one-fifth of Pyongyang’s cyberattacks now originate."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/15/worl ... -sony.html

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby sum » 03 Nov 2017 19:39

Noko embassy?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 03 Nov 2017 22:08

uddu wrote:Once Scorpene subs enter service old subs will be decommissioned. We could use those.


Its my guess kilos are not constructed modularly unlike scorpenes. Also its double hull. So cutting open a kilo to put a plug would be tricky. They could have used sindhu rakshak for this but even they might have felt its unsuitable for this.
It wont serve any purpose putting it on a sub thats not its intended recipient. Better have a follow on Scorpene order of 3 to 6 and put those plugs there.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cosmo_R » 04 Nov 2017 04:37

sum wrote:Noko embassy?


Everywhere but it seems. We love Nokos as 'students'

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 04 Nov 2017 05:14

Naval Group prepares partnerships to support India’s next-generation submarines
http://www.janes.com/article/75414/nava ... submarines

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 04 Nov 2017 13:58

Kilos take only 2+ yrs to build.Adding a plug is no problem.We should be designing and building our own small research subs and given our poor numbers keep the older subs for reg.,war reserves ,subs that can protect our principal bases and ports from enemy attack,sending the newer more capable subs in offensive patrols.NoKo is supposed to have 70 subs of vintage design but v.useful in its waters.One was thought to have sunk a
SoKo ASW corvette a few years ago.Iran too is building at a good rate small subs of indigenous design which could make life v.difficult for shipping transiting the Persian Gulf.

A fleet of a dozen small subs of less than 1000t ,highly automated with small crews ,armed with std. weaponry,with a 30-40 day patrol period could make life v.difficult for anything trying to ingress into the IOR.UW versions of the LCA.These subs could be .modular in design along with the P-75I concept.The Amur/Lada had sev. sizes available to suit a client.However this is one opportunity where a desi design could appear now that we have a DRDO AiP system too.

We need large numbers of subs from 2020 onwards with at least 2 conv. subs every yr. and one N-sub joining the fleet every year.Including the 6 Scorpenes it would give us approx 30 subs by 2030,plus a few Arihant and Akula subs which may be with us before 2020 with the prospect of all U-boats and Kilos retired by 2030 .A few of the Kilos acquired last and upgraded if in decent condition,may be in the reserves/trg. squad.That would give us around 12 N-subs and 20+ conv./AIP boats.
The 6 Scorpenes would then be starting their first refit with addition of AIP plugs.

The small mini-subs are extras apart from the above,which could be off-loaded to the pvt. sector with two yards building 6 each at the rate of 1-2 yr.These yards could also be tasked with building UUVs which will also be read. in large numbers for long endurance surveillance missions and covert ops in enemy waters,some launched from the mother sub.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 04 Nov 2017 16:19

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/923947447566475269 ---> Japan's counter-OBOR (One Belt, One Road) proposition needs to be examined carefully. But it must fully reflect Indian strategic sensitivities.

Japan to propose strategic dialogue with US, India and Australia: Report
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ar ... 277784.cms


They need a defence pact till they develop nuclear weapons. Japan is one of those original warlocks wearing a pacifist mask., now waking up! Good for India.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 04 Nov 2017 16:20

sum wrote:Noko embassy?


could be independent contractors as well.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 04 Nov 2017 17:55

all of the euro SSK designs are originally designed for the shallow waters, short missions and littoral conditions of the Med and Baltic. no lipstick can hide that.

the collins class was the first attempt post ww2 at a really long endurance SSK and it needed lots of american assistance to be a effective combat platform.

the soryu is the only other living sample of that concept.

pity we are stuck with the euros instead of doing something on our own or a soryu derived class.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 04 Nov 2017 17:59

First the sons of Nippon have to amend their constitution
so that they can go to war anywhere in the globe again.This will cause much anxiety in countries that suffered under imperial Japan....esp. China.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 05 Nov 2017 16:33

In the LCA thread there was a discussion on the 1 mtr plug for mk2 and how the entire certification cycle will have to be re visited.
So applying the same logic here wouldnt the scorpene have to do the same if the proposed AIP upgrade plug after 6 years is being planned. Wouldnt it effect all the tactics developed around the current version.
The propulsion motor would have been selected for the current weight of 1800 ton. A big AIP plug will have severe speed penalties.
Also 6 years is too early for a refit i feel. French are trying to sell us a Rozgaar scheme with this upgrade I think. Next upgrade they might sell i think will be a plug for brahmos. So what do we have here? P75I. What extra will the on going tender bring on the table.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 05 Nov 2017 17:44

Scorpenes are passe.Pak has been operating Agosta -90B subs with MESMA AIP for ages.Their details have all been leaked too.The project is so late and when the last one arrives,will be almost a decade late.Far superior subs would've entered the market by then,plus the exorbitant costs for non-AIP Scorpenes-twice that of a Kilo-2 which can fire 1t00km Kalibir missiles while a Svorpene can only fire 100-00km Exocets makes it ridiculous to buy or manufacture more when the
import content still remains high.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Nov 2017 10:43

Singha wrote:all of the euro SSK designs are originally designed for the shallow waters, short missions and littoral conditions of the Med and Baltic. no lipstick can hide that.

the collins class was the first attempt post ww2 at a really long endurance SSK and it needed lots of american assistance to be a effective combat platform.

the soryu is the only other living sample of that concept.

pity we are stuck with the euros instead of doing something on our own or a soryu derived class.


But thats exactly the type of waters in Arabian sea(where the water is shallow upto 120-150KM off the coast especially in places like Karachi, Gwadar, Mumbai (200km) and Gujarat coast) where we need our SSK's to operate, we should build SSN's for patrolling the and meeting the Blue water objectives .

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2017 11:54

Soryu the non-nuclear man's N-boat. Designed for Pacific water ops.Requires long range,endurance,etc. Our conv.AIP boats req. patrols for not more than 45-60 days max. even 60 days in a small conv. AIP boat would be very taxing for the crew.larger N-boats have luxuries-some of them like larger living spaces,gyms,spas,and the massive Typhoon SSBN even had a swimming pool! 90 days is std. for an N-boat.Our Conv. boats should possess UUVs for
surveillance and penetrating coastal defences of the enemy,with lesser chances of detection being the size of torpedoes.They could also detect minefields sown by the enemy off his principal ports/bases.The IN should have as said earlier a large number of conv. boats,min-subs too,which can saturate the approaches/chokepoints of the IOR on a permanent basis to monitor all enemy/extra-regional subs and warships entering and exiting the IOR. Our longer-legged AIP boats and N-subs should be tasked with ICS ops so that they can destroy PLAN forces even before they attempt t enter the IOR.Even the sinking of just one Chin warship or sub in the ICS would give China the heebie-jeebies.They would think dozens of times before attempting to send in a CBG into the IOR.While such an eventuality may happen in peacetime to "show the flag",a great risk during wartime.Within a few years,IAF MKIs too will be equipped with 500+KM air-launched BMos.The test of the std. air-launched BMos-A version is to happen shortly.Based in the ANC and with refuelling,they could spell havoc for the PLAN's surface fleet in the ICS too.This is why we should remove the gloves off the iron fists when dealing with our littoral neighbours who have ambitions of providing the Chins with base facilities on their territory in the IOR.The Maldives being prime example,where the riot act needs to be read out to the current despotic regime.We should dust the files of Op Cactus-said before as it may have to come to that if the maldives are serious about providing China a military base on one or more of their atolls.The paid off the moolah due to GMR with Chin money.We should've done something similar with respect to SL's China debt and kept them out of the island and replacing them squatting on their former "colonies."

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2017 06:43

Possibly the first publicly released picture of the inside of India’s 1st Scorpéne Class INS Kalvari? (From @Livefist via @IndianDiplomacy - Official Twitter Account of India's Ministry of External Affairs).

https://twitter.com/indiandiplomacy/sta ... 1060255744

Image

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 12 Nov 2017 04:47

https://twitter.com/subnut/status/929282031632052224 --> French interested in SSNs for India when media reports 2nd Akula for IN.Perhaps this explains recent media "news" (today denied by another media source) that USN officers visited SSN Chakra.

https://twitter.com/subnut/status/929304325557383170 --> This same French Yard has also built SSBNs for FN & Scorpene conventional subs for Chilean & Malaysian Navies. So France cud also be showing its capabilities for proposed $10 bn IN Project 75(I) conventional subs.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 12 Nov 2017 08:51

The major problem for the French is exorbitant cost.Their CV subs for OZ is going to cost them $1B+ each,actually the entire prod. for 12 will cost the around $40B (OZ$?) and a small SSN at least 2-3 times as much.The lease of the Chakra for 10 years was just $700M! These Fr. Barracuda subs will also be non-BMos capable. How they're going to even us provide with tech equal to or superior to what OZ is getting,after guaranteeing them superior tech to what India will get ,is another major issue.

The French also do not operate large N-subs which can carry a large loadout of LRCMs,etc.Ru Akula and the follow on series to come can carry munitions upwards of 40.


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