LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2017 04:35

Ramana ji, yes for once somebody on the forum gets my angst!!

The USAF set up a special team to move from base to base to crosscheck EW gear serviceability. They will have similar processes for AAMs, PGMs etc.
Here, we have reports, decade after induction, that everything from Kh-31, to AA-12 to Harpy to Crystal Maze - didnt work or were duds.

How is this "non delayed world class import" any better than an Indian system which arrives late but works?

What is this magical belief that somehow services are tops in program management and have some secret sauce which the civilians dont have? A frustrated IAF guy told me how CAG comments on his staff not running BRDs optimally was unfair because the same guy pulls a double shift as base security or engineering crew. Now, the same way how is a fighter pilot who has spent his entire life in a cockpit or commanding those who do & at max running a base for a few years suddenly better than a civvie who lives and breathes his specific field whether engines or supply chain?

The same CAG which lambasts the Russians for giving us delayed TOT will also point out IAF took a huge amount of time (delayed) to set up basic infra for SAMs. Is it a coincidence then the improperly stored SAMs had higher than expected failure rates?

A revealing datapoint about IA Base workshops over T-55 Project Gulmohar showed they were every bit as inefficient metric wise as OFB in meeting projections. The reasons were the same - improper equipment, delayed spares from OEM and so forth.

What I want is something simple - the stuff the services already have should work! Get that fixed first, pure and straight, before harping on the next magic weapon that will arrive with more expensive parts and new headaches.

Even if Parrikar drove Su-30 serviceability up by having HAL and IAF order more parts etc, what was the IAF thinking when its existing frontline fighter did not have enough spares and YET they wanted a far more expensive program??

So, in which organization, if the organization is unwilling or incapable of affording its existing fleet of SUVs, does the planning side go and push for an expensive acquisition of luxury SUVs, far more expensive than the former?? How will they be able to field those numbers when the manufacturing country itself barely fields 40-50% serviceability?

I am sorry but this is crazy policy. The need of the hour was always to get Su-30 readiness up & for the rest of the IAF, rather than chase after a MMRCA or whatever.
That could have actually come later & if we had Su-30 serviceability at 80% (as versus 50%), the 30% jump on 272 airframes is 80 odd planes, i.e. 60% of a MMRCA order!!!

This could have been done at far lower cost & with much greater speed. Instead we have wasted time running after yet another import boondoggle, which the MOD, MOF and PMO (both new and old) have made into another fracas.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Nov 2017 04:42

+1 KaranM

Good summary of the ills that plagues the Indian MIC. It would seem India is in a 30-year rewind cycle in the name of MII.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2017 04:44

The Israelis upgrade their planes to the max. Even their F-35 purchase is silver bullet in numbers. This an AF which has a strong domestic aviation industry and literally free F-XX purchases, YET it optimizes its shekel and $ budgets. In India, we have literally a fraction of the PGM stocks smaller AFs have, a fraction of the airborne sensor coverage in AWACS, a fraction of the UAV or other basic items NATO AFs take for granted.. and we didnt even have proper serviceability for our frontline fighters.. in part because the MOF said it could not afford to run high-revenue and capex budgets.

And what does our AF do? It projects an even bigger capex budget (existing revenue shortfall will be magically fixed) and the MOD agrees (and we all know what that meant in the previous dispensation). Where will the budget for the next bunch of stuff come?

And the AF chooses one of the most expensive fighters the NATO AFs have, if not the most expensive. A fighter with a limited production run. Never exported, so everything will be more expensive to run, operate and upgrade.

And all this for a country which is clearly, per capita wise, much richer than NATO or otherwise & can hence afford such profligate expenditure.

And the fighter chosen is a 4.5 G platform, which nobody is sure will be able to manage the PRC's integrated IADS or 5G platforms. For that it will require force multipliers. Which incidentally IAF cannot afford, because .. there is no budget for them. The local ones available? IAF has only ordered some 2-3 of them, waiting for the "big ones", which are nowhere near available, because the Russians hiked up the price for the airframes (hey, India is rich, why should't they take a cut).

Truly bizarre.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Nov 2017 05:15

Karan: you should become Raksha Mantri or at least Deputy Raksha Mantri

And don’t forget, F-16 is just a small part of a big pie

Foolish are the folks who believe that the F-16 will be the mythical fairy - that with the wave of her wand - will magically transform India’s aviation industry from Zero to Hero.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2017 05:23

Karan,

Consider writing an article without bashing the forces but expressing your angst. I will find out an outlet.

I am writing one for LCA right now.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 15 Nov 2017 05:35

Indranil wrote:Karan,

Consider writing an article without bashing the forces but expressing your angst. I will find out an outlet.

I am writing one for LCA right now.

+1000 Thanks!

Can you all start coordinating efforts? Publish it on multiple sites?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Nov 2017 05:37

+1000

I echo Cybaru. Collaborate together. Expose & End the Hypocrisy!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Nov 2017 06:16

I want a clutch of articles
There are many angles.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 15 Nov 2017 06:17

A couple of members here have written for Swarajya, perhaps Swarajya will be willing to publish these view points.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 15 Nov 2017 06:38

ramana wrote:I want a clutch of articles
There are many angles.

Ramana - check your Yahoo account.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 15 Nov 2017 08:12

ramana wrote:Arunachalam and Rajiv Gandhi put the LCA program at the feet of US and it got kicked hard. When the LCA was conceptualized the whole game was to align with US aircraft industry and the program got hit by sanctions, delays, technology denial etc. The RLG, unstable aerodynamics, flight control laws, actuators all were US components. Even the flight control laws were proofed on F16 and got sanctioned in 1998.

Ramana, a different interpretation can be given to the facts you listed here. India was not so naive as some think ... The Indian government had not forgotten about the U.S.'s assassination of Prime Minister Shastri (1965), Dr. Homi Bhabha (1966), its threatened use of nuclear weapons on behalf of Pakistan in the 1971 war, and its involvement in Khalistani terrorism (1970's and 1980's). All of this would have been fresh in the mind of Indian leaders as the Tejas's design was conceptualized in the 1980's.

There was something else going on. All I'm going to say about this is that the Indian leaders involved were geopolitical geniuses. The Tejas program is on the verge of major success, after all. I think this "single-engined fighter" procurement will be canceled and the Tejas will receive a total order of 300-400+.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 09:04

Data point-01 (for my own information)
https://fightersweep.com/5053/length-av ... r-mission/
F-16

Actual Sortie: 1.0 – 1.8 hours. This is the fun part, but it’s still missionized. You’re not just goofing off.

Gripen: manufacturer's brochure
https://saab.com/globalassets/commercia ... ochure.pdf
This is for a patrol, not a combat sortie

In a typical air-to-air configuration for example, Gripen NG can patrol for over two hours.

Gripen Sortie rates/flying time
http://www.warfaresims.com/WarSimsWP/wp ... s_001a.jpg

Source article (good one)
http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=3262#9

As an example, assume a given Close Air Support (CAS) loadout allows a maximum of 3 Quick Turnaround sorties and 4 hours of total flying time. If the first sortie lasts more than two hours (say, 2.5 hrs), the aircraft will be ordered to step down after just one sortie flown because the next sortie is also estimated to last 2.5 hours. This would have brought the total airborne time to 5 hours which exceeds the four-hour limitation. If the aircraft lands after completing 2 sorties with 3 hours total airborne time, the aircraft will also be ordered to step down because the third and last sortie is estimated to last 1.5 hours. In this case the total airborne time would have become 4.5 hours. With these limitations in mind, if the player wants the aircraft to fly three sorties in a row, he must make sure that each takes less than one hour to fly. Once an aircraft steps down it will typically not be ready for at least six hours.

Here follows some examples of typical ready times and max airborne times for Quick Turnaround-capable loadouts:

A-10A Thunderbolt II and AV-8A/B/C Harrier/Harrier II Close Air Support (CAS) loadouts: maximum 3 sorties and 4 hours airborne time, 15 minute turnaround for simple loadouts, 30 minute turnaround for more complex loadouts (e.g. 2 vs 6 Maverick missiles).

Swedish Viggen and Gripen anti-invasion air-to-ground (CAS/BAI) and anti-ship loadouts: 3 sorties and 4 hours airborne time, 12 minute turnaround for simple loadouts, 20 minutes for complex.

Israeli CAS loadouts: 3 sorties and 4 hours airborne time, 15 minute turnaround.

Israeli strike loadouts: 2 sorties and 4 hours airborne time, 30 minute turnaround.

Israeli strike loadouts, Six-Day War, Operation Moked (airbase interdiction on day one): 5 sorties and 8 hours airborne time, 60 minute turnaround, 10 hours stand-down time.

Israeli strike loadouts, Six-Day War, Close Air Support (CAS): 5 sorties and 10 hours airborne time, 30 minute turnaround, 10 hours stand-down time.

Most other BAI/CAS loadouts, land-based aircraft: 2 sorties and 4 hours airborne time, 30 minute turnaround.

BAI/CAS loadouts, carrier-based aircraft: 2 sorties and 4 hours airborne time, 90 minute turnaround due to carrier launch & recovery cycles.

Air-to-air loadouts, land-based aircraft: 2 sorties and 5 hours airborne time, 30 min turnaround.

Air-to-air loadouts, carrier-based aircraft: 2 sorties and 5 hours airborne time, 90 min turnaround due to carrier launch & recover cycles.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2017 09:07

I have one request. When you write the article(s), be mindful of the organizations you are writing about. It's the Indian Armed Forces. ~~Probably~~, the most respected organizations in the country. Organizations whose men and women lie down their limbs and life for the country on a regular basis.

I am writing mine because I am hurt. It is like somebody elder in my family whom I really respect for their integrity willfully and knowingly hurt the toddler who is just beginning to stand up.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 09:27

I am going to do a video - and I am collecting data..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Nov 2017 09:41

One must also remember that after-sales service, warranties,spares, support, etc. as well as pricing are NOT negotiated by the services but by the MOD! Poorly negotiated agreements by techincally ignorant babus have plagued many acquisitions.Therefore it is not always the case that the services keep wanting new toys instead of maintaining their existing ones.

The case of Kilo sub batteries being cannibalised and the accident aboard a Kilo attributed to old batteries was an MOD dereliction of duty in not ordering spares despite repeated requests.A fine CNS had to resign instead.Fortunately he has been rehabilitated and is the new Lt.Gov. of the A&N islands where he formerly headed the ANC.

The media today has a report of a inter-party spat where the Cong. allege a potential scandal involving purchase of Rafales at exorbitant cost to benefit a certain corporate outfit.Figures have been given by a party spokesman claiming that there was a far lower unit price agreed upon during their regime than what we agreed to a yr. ago when the PM visited France and sealed the deal.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 15 Nov 2017 09:56

Kashi wrote:A couple of members here have written for Swarajya, perhaps Swarajya will be willing to publish these view points.

I have written for Swarajya. Their heart is in the right place and I believe they will publish well researched articles which can educate readers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 10:22

Rakesh wrote:Karan: Be wary of criticizing the IAF. The self appointed, moral police on BRF will jump on you! Air Marshals are allowed to trash local programs with nonsense claims, but those claims must never be questioned.

Karan M wrote: What is this magical belief that somehow services are tops in program management and have some secret sauce which the civilians dont have?

I would like to address these points in the light of this flurry of angst and fire under butts to write articles.

These are my views:

One of the most important things IMO in communication is not to piss off the guy whose views you oppose off by making insulting or funny comments. Once a relationship goes into that more the insulted guy will do exactly the same thing to the other chap.

This is not about BRF - but I will come to BRF also after I say this. I know for a fact that the IAF and HAL/DRDO got very personally insulting about each other. To used my own standards of propriety I will make the following two statements

1. I respect the IAF for their devotion to duty and the risks they take without break to defend the nation.
2. I respect the workers of PSUs/HAL and especially the new breed who have worked hard under trying circumstances to drag a kicking and resisting India into the arena of modern technology that is actually unavailable in the Indian private sector

That said the IAF has been scathing and insulting about HAL. At my age I have had more time and opportunity to read the history of the IAF in detail than most Air Force officers of my age and younger. I know for a fact (and it is on record, I can produce references) that the Air Force accepted dangerous crap when they accepted the Gnat and BAe too were economical with the truth because they wanted to sell to India. I can write about the MiG 21 as well here

But on the other side PSU/HAL and DRDO have been less than sympathetic to the IAF's complaints. The reasons are varied. When an accident occurs - the cause is unknown and for the IAF it really grates to hear the words "pilot error" as the conclusion. On the other hand the IAF has experience of fuel lines coming off because a clip was not replaced, or a loose nut/bolt in the engine - facts that can be clearly blamed on PSUs

Let me add my own perspective here. Both IAF and PSUs like HAL are government organizations and function like bureaucracies. But because people die on their job in the forces - there is marginally more discipline and more awareness that errors of servicing can cost lives and careers of those technicians/pilots responsible. I know for a fact that this has been absent or less than optimum in PSUs including HAL

To cut a long story short, both PSUs and the IAF can be blamed for things that I can list back 50 years. But if we want them to work together do not insult them. If we use the Air Force view to insult the PSU, the PSUs have a counter view that will make them less interested in actually addressing the IAFs issues and more interested in proving that they are right.

So, if BRFites are going to write articles - stop throwing blind insults at organizations that we do not belong to. Point out errors on both sides and help reconciliation.

If you got this far, thanks. I mean what I said . If you disagree - of course there is no need to even think about what I have written and I apologize for bothering you with my views.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Nov 2017 10:30

Doc Saáb appreciate your views but when we move out of BRF and publish we are responsible to back our views to a greater degree. If people have facts with them and are ready to stand by their logic, I think its best to call a spade a spade. Political correctness will get us nowhere.

I personally believe that a hornets nest has been stirred somehow. Probably because the NSA asked why not Tejas? Whatever it is the other side is having a free run. A counter from the Indian side needs to come.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 10:39

Long ago I had written an anecdote about a golf game I had with a retired Brigadier and a retired DRDO chap. The Brigadier and DRDO man seemed to be friends or at least acquaintances/golf partners. Throughout the game the DRDO man kept cracking jokes about the Brigadier.

If the the Brigadier happened to walk ahead to look for his ball the DRDO man said "Ah look at the Khaki - he is brave on the golf course - he advances before anyone else. But on the battlefield he will always stay at the back"

I thought word Khaki was particularly ironic. That is the way post independence Nehruvians looked at the army and that is what Pakis call their army when they blame the armies of "both nations" of wanting to wage war. But I digress . What I want to point out is that the forces and DRDO can get very personally insulting about each other. Long ago, when Wingco Suresh had to leave the Air Force he became the Flight safety director at HAL. After he died Gp Capt Kapil Bhargava told me that Suresh did a great deal to improve relations between HAL and the air force - which always came to a head when there had been an aircraft crash. Each entity (HAL/Air Force) would try to preserve their reputation and remain free of blame for the crash whose cause would naturally be unknown.

A blame game is the last thing that is needed. What is needed is understanding. Private players and exporters score over PSU/DRDO because they will always come across as friendly and forthcoming - although they always wash their hands off accidents

in that story about crashing Jaguars BAE had blamed the IAF. And when Su-30 ejection seats were firing off on their own - the Russians did not agree that there was a problem

By all means take sides - but do not mock or insult the other side. You will always find test pilots (Kapil Bhargava, AM Rajkumar and current LCA test pilots) seeing both sides. But it behooves us to be diplomatic if we are to be taken seriously. If it is for time pass and letting off steam - fine - but don't expect to be taken seriously.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 10:42

deejay wrote: A counter from the Indian side needs to come.

This is an interesting point.

So far I have video clips of CAS Arup Raha and ACM Dhanoa stating in public that they back the Tejas. Dhanoa said this on Oct 8th 2017

Now we have "unnamed sources" creating a flurry in the media. There is no reaction from Vayusena or MoD. This may be a storm in a teacup. It is important to be truthful, if not impartial.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Nov 2017 11:17

Avarachan wrote:The Tejas program is on the verge of major success, after all. I think this "single-engined fighter" procurement will be canceled and the Tejas will receive a total order of 300-400+.

If/When that happens, aapke mooh main ghee-shakkar, Sir. 300-400 kgs mithai from my side to BRF-ites

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Nov 2017 11:27

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 645362.cms
Just days after reports on the IAF giving a thumbs down to advanced versions of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Southern Command chief Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria, on Tuesday flew a 30-minutes solo mission on the indigenous fighter aircraft.

It looks like MoD news.. but the crappy title (ugh).

as if he was flying for the first time! the next para follows:

Bhadauria, who has more than 4,000 hours of flying experience has over 100 sorties of test flights on the Tejas aircraft.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Nov 2017 11:39

SaiK wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 645362.cms

It looks like MoD news.. but the crappy title (ugh).

SaiK Sir, welcome back.

And thank you for linking this article. Indeed it is MOD speaking. To me it seems Narad Muni is playing overtime.

BENGALURU: Just days after reports on the IAF giving a thumbs down to advanced versions of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Southern Command chief Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria, on Tuesday flew a 30-minutes solo mission on the indigenous fighter aircraft.

Bhadauria flying the aircraft, a ministry of defence (MoD) statement read: "Gave a fresh impetus to the induction and operationalization of the indigenous fighter jet."

"No 45 Squadron, "The Flying Daggers", the first squadron to be equipped with Tejas LCA in July last year, played hosts to the Air Marshal, an accomplished fighter pilot, who is also an experimental test pilot," the statement read.

Bhadauria, who has more than 4,000 hours of flying experience has over 100 sorties of test flights on the Tejas aircraft.
"Ever since he took over the reins of Southern Air Command, Bhadauria has been pushing both, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as designer and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as manufacturer of Tejas, for early operationalisation of this fleet," the statement added.

The Flying Daggers squadron, which is expected to move to its permanent location at Sulur, near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu next year, is presently involved in training of air and ground crew, formulation of procedures and realization of the operational potential of the aircraft.

"Apart from the much appreciated participation in the Republic Day Flypast in January this year and the Air Force Day Flypasts for the last two years, the squadron has also undertaken detachments at operational bases to test the weapon capability of his agile fighter aircraft," the statement read.

With the induction of an additional assembly line, HAL is all set to ramp-up the production rate in order to make good the promised delivery schedules, while designers at ADA are working on completing all activities pending towards the Final Operational Clearance, which will give the Tejas more teeth and fire power.

"Design activities on the improved version, Tejas Mk IA, are already underway. The heads of design and production agencies appreciated the flights by Air Mshl Bhadauria, which are seen as major gesture by the IAF to appreciate the efforts by the design and production agencies, as well as an affirmation of the continued support to this indigenous initiative," the MoD statement added.

Sorry quoted the above article linked by SaiK sir( https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 645362.cms) in full. Will remove if it is an infringement.

I do hope that instead of these politically correct interjections an open war on the 'cabal' is launched.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Nov 2017 11:48

dhanyavAdh deejay commodore saab. I'm only a flying off-saar. ToI reprint rights point to the same URL link. So, I don't know how you might want to construe that.

PS: legally you are good -

https://www.indiatimes.com/termsandcondition/
we can use complete text for non-commercial purposes, AND we have linked THE URL here. [assume: we are not republishing, but a discussion forum]

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Nov 2017 12:08

Karan M wrote: So, in which organization, if the organization is unwilling or incapable of affording its existing fleet of SUVs, does the planning side go and push for an expensive acquisition of luxury SUVs, far more expensive than the former?? How will they be able to field those numbers when the manufacturing country itself barely fields 40-50% serviceability?

crazy-wall stuff happens even in high places!

I am sorry but this is crazy policy. The need of the hour was always to get Su-30 readiness up & for the rest of the IAF, rather than chase after a MMRCA or whatever.
That could have actually come later & if we had Su-30 serviceability at 80% (as versus 50%), the 30% jump on 272 airframes is 80 odd planes, i.e. 60% of a MMRCA order!!!

This could have been done at far lower cost & with much greater speed. Instead, we have wasted time running after yet another import boondoggle, which the MOD, MOF and PMO (both new and old) have made into another fracas.

Exactly... IAF must focus on Su30 readiness, upgrades, and fixes. The 36 Rafale was pretty darn expensive affair! (la Bentley bentgayas and merc benz) whereas RAV4 and Outbacks get slammed as unfriendly (no luxury, sorry).

You have hit the nail right where it should hurt. If we are not getting those rebuttal articles out, then BRF efforts will go GDF way!

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 15 Nov 2017 12:21

Indranil wrote:I have one request. When you write the article(s), be mindful of the organizations you are writing about. It's the Indian Armed Forces. ~~Probably~~, the most respected organizations in the country. Organizations whose men and women lie down their limbs and life for the country on a regular basis.

I would also ask that members be respectful of the Indian government. There's a level of deep strategy occurring which many people are not aware of. For instance, it is probably not an accident that India will start exporting the Tejas only *after* its undersea nuclear deterrent has been operationalized. Think about that.

Many people simply do not understand how ruthless the world of geopolitics and the arms business is. For instance, one of the reasons Yugoslavia was destroyed in the 1990's was that its Novi Avion project (a single-engined version of the French Rafale) would have been competition for the F-16 C Block 50/52. Because Yugoslavia was broken up, the Novi Avion project was canceled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Avion

"The Weight of Chains" video trailer

India is attempting something incredibly dangerous: to enter the ranks of a top-tier military exporter (more so than China) and a genuinely independent world power (more so than Japan/Germany/Israel/UK). Just as in boxing, bobbing, ducking, and weaving are necessary.

Nonetheless, in my opinion, there's no need for the IAF to be nasty ... This gratuitous condescension damages morale and hurts India's image internationally. Also, Prime Minister Modi handled the sacking of Dr. Avinash Chander badly. That wasn't the way to treat a senior DRDO scientist.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Nov 2017 12:31

deejay wrote:
SaiK wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 645362.cms

It looks like MoD news.. but the crappy title (ugh).
SaiK Sir, welcome back.

And thank you for linking this article. Indeed it is MOD speaking. To me it seems Narad Muni is playing overtime.

To add to that, I picked up from twitter that AM Bhaduria was in fact LCA test pilot in initial days of LCA flight testing. Which probably explains his solo flight as well as a more appreciative look towards desi programs and candid opinion about IAF's past mistakes related to HF-24, that he expressed in the DIIA conclave recently.

This is precisely why I have always advocated more cross-pollination among various organisations. With increasing interaction, increasing appreciation for each others view points come. There are a lot of postings from AFs to the RnD establishment as of now. That needs to be hiked further, especially embedding and grooming certain individuals who have aptitude to be the bridge between User and developer right from the young edge. I suppose IN is on right path for this. IAF/IA needs to do more on technical side at least. They can perhaps hire engineering/management grads just for being engineers/managers working on development programs exclusively and then keep moving them between the user and developers organisations so that they get both perspectives from up close. DRDO/HAL on their side can depute their young ones to AFs for seeing user activity, their day to day operational activities for 6months/1 yr to start with and then few month every few years. A program can be worked out to move people around.

Rohit/tsarkar also have advocated multiple times, more interaction between the two sides. Simple things like taking LCA to various AF bases and giving joy-rides/demos to line pilots could win quite a bit of good will for LCA. Focusing more on training infrastructure and providing world class training experience to young incoming cadre would also boost their faith in desi programs/developers (e.g. HAL could have focussed better on IJT, like now they are doing on HTT40. Pilots trained on desi birds would obviously have more favourable outlook towards desi programs). Basically Soldiers should not be making opinions based on MSM crap, rather the RnD establishment should go out of their ways to try and give them first hand experience of systems being developed for them. Many things can be done. And the idea can be extended to bring in the third stake holder - MoD into this too. My thought are quite incoherent. But in essence, there needs to be feeling that all are on one team and that is Team India.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Nov 2017 12:34

Avarachan wrote:
Indranil wrote:I have one request. When you write the article(s), be mindful of the organizations you are writing about. It's the Indian Armed Forces. ~~Probably~~, the most respected organizations in the country. Organizations whose men and women lie down their limbs and life for the country on a regular basis.
I would also ask that members be respectful of the Indian government. There's a level of deep strategy occurring which many people are not aware of. For instance, it is probably not an accident that India will start exporting the Tejas only *after* its undersea nuclear deterrent has been operationalized. Think about that.

Many people simply do not understand how ruthless the world of geopolitics and the arms business is. For instance, one of the reasons Yugoslavia was destroyed in the 1990's was that its Novi Avion project (a single-engined version of the French Rafale) would have been competition for the F-16 C Block 50/52. Because Yugoslavia was broken up, the Novi Avion project was canceled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Avion

"The Weight of Chains" video trailer

India is attempting something incredibly dangerous: to enter the ranks of a top-tier military exporter (more so than China) and a genuinely independent world power (more so than Japan/Germany/Israel/UK). Just as in boxing, bobbing, ducking, and weaving are necessary.

This is a very interesting perspective you are bringing in. Yes we are up against something that keeps the current world order forced on the world.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 15 Nov 2017 12:40

^^ Nonetheless, in my opinion, there's no need for the IAF to be nasty ... This gratuitous condescension damages morale and hurts India's image internationally. Also, Prime Minister Modi handled the sacking of Dr. Avinash Chander badly. That wasn't the way to treat a senior DRDO scientist.

nash · Post by **nash** » 15 Nov 2017 14:21

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/11 ... metic.html

COLUMN: The Indian Air Force’s Tyranny Of Arithmetic

A good and balanced article to rebut IAF claims.

I think avenue like livefist can be one of the place where posters can put their article.

We need this kind of article in SM and MSM to bring more awareness about the whole scenario.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 14:28

deejay wrote:
I do hope that instead of these politically correct interjections an open war on the 'cabal' is launched.

I agree that there is a cabal and that open war is needed.

My question is: How do we know that the cabal is from the Air Force? Or that the Air Force in general is against it"

Assuming you are not hinting at some personal communication as tsarkarji did - I must point out that at this time all the information I have got is that some news portal echoed by Manu Pubby and Shiv Aroor and later everyone else stated that "Unnamed sources" within the Air Force had a presentation supposedly to RM.

_I_do_not_trust_the_media_

There can be only two possibilities to start with
1. There genuinely was an air force document with all those allegations about Tejas
2. There was no such document and the whole thing is fake, designed to create an atmosphere of distrust about the Tejas

Assuming there was such a document - it seems to me that there may be someone in the air force and/or government who is trying to sabotage the program. But does that mean the whole air force is against it officially? Arup Raha (last year), Dhanoa (this year) and Bhaduria - all have made staments that go against the gist of the fake allegations.

Is there any reason to blame the entire Air Force. In fact such a leak may seek to blame the entire air force when it is a "cabal". Naturally the cabal will not want to be discovered.

Assuming that the document is fake or forged - it only means that there are powerful people who seek to sabotage the Tejas program. Who might they be. They are obviously trying to implicate the air force and have connections with the media. It could be any one of a number of foreign manufacturers.

Once again blindly hitting out at the air force is exactly what they might be seeking. If I wanted to sabotage the Tejas I would claim that "someone else", say the air force, is against it. The tejas gets bad press any way and if the Air Force goes ahead and inducts it - this same campaign can be continued the minute the Tejas has one more delay or setback, no matter how minor it might be.

I say Attack the cabal. Speculate on who it might be. But do not jump to the conclusion that is is the air force. Three very senior air force people have not spoken of any change in the current or future plans for Tejas. If someone thinks it is the air force that is doing that - I would like to see the sort of proof offered. It has to be better than "My friend told me" or "Sources in the Air Force said..". After all unimpeachable sources in the air force like Dhanoa and Bhaduira have not said anything of the sort.

Recall that the navy, in rejecting the Tejas did it officially with Adm Lanba saying so. Not some "unnamed xyz" making presentation to abc and that being leaked

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 14:40

Data point -02
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-421182/

The first international deployment with the Tejas involved flying 970nm (1,800km) from Bengaluru to Jamnagar, before covering a further 650nm for a second refuelling stop in Muscat, Oman. The final leg was a 430nm transit to the show venue at Sakhir air base, near Manama.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Nov 2017 16:20

the so called statements from unnamed sources in IAF ( IF true) could well be Babus firing from IAF shoulders... I dont beleive IAF has the capacity/capability to override the Babus/Netas or arm twist the Babus/netas . Has anybody seen how senior Defence officers stand outside Babus doors !

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Nov 2017 16:28

shiv wrote:Data point -02
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-421182/
The first international deployment with the Tejas involved flying 970nm (1,800km) from Bengaluru to Jamnagar, before covering a further 650nm for a second refuelling stop in Muscat, Oman. The final leg was a 430nm transit to the show venue at Sakhir air base, near Manama.

A correction to the above data point - and I'm surprised Flight Global got it wrong.

The road and rail distance from Bangalore to Jamnagar is 1800 km because road & rail route has to go around the Gulf of Khambat/Cambay. The air route from Bangalore to Jamnagar has no such limitation and is actually ~ 1300 km/700 nm.

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Nov 2017 16:32

shiv wrote: Recall that the navy, in rejecting the Tejas did it officially with Adm Lanba saying so. Not some "unnamed xyz" making presentation to abc and that being leaked

This is what is required. Unfortunately "3 legged chetah" had hit LCA hard.

I guess all people want is IAF Chief putting it down clearly. It is as simple as

"We need to replace 400 jets. LCA alone cannot fulfill the numbers within the required time frame and GoI want to build a private supplier as well. So we want 200 LCA and 200 SE from another source".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 17:38

nam wrote: I guess all people want is IAF Chief putting it down clearly. It is as simple as

Last 2 IAF chiefs have not put it down. An IAF officer leaking documents to the contrary would be insubordination and liable for disciplinary action. I think service rules are pretty clear on that.

In the past I have heard: I name them all for the first time

"Latest Confusion in Aeronautics" - Wingco Suresh
"Khadi Gramodyog" - Nambiar
"Three Legged Cheetah - AM Bhatia (retired)

But two air chiefs and Bhaduria have made no such declarations

For these statements it is not clear to me that the program is under threat but it certainly continues to be under vicious attack.

Unless I am mistaken - we have gradually built up a narrative on BRF where the original report has grown from "media has access to a presentation" to "ppt presented to RM" to "Actually RM is trying to force IAF and IAF is hitting back. This is all pure speculation.

If we hit the wrong entity and reach fake conclusions we will not do the Tejas any good. We have to directly try and identify where these insinuations are coming from. In this latest episode it is definitely not an official air forces stand or a Defence Min stand. It is a media report citing "sources" in the air force.wtf?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 19:30

Who would gain the most from killing LCA. Let me state a few scenarios

[quote="Possible scenarios " "]1. The air force wants import, bribes and foreign trips and therefore prefers single engine import. It also happens to suit the exporters, SAAB and LM
or
2. The exporters, SAAB and LM have the most to gain. They gain whether they pay bribes or not. They gain whether IAF is import pasand or not.
or
3. A third party - say a competitor like Russia, or a malevolent party like China or Pakistan want to see maximum delay in India's build up and have provoked this story via cheap and easily bought Indian journalists.[/quote]

If the Air Force wants bribes - it is not easy. There may be some person embedded along with babus in defence ministry who may benefit. Problem is this time the money will be flowing along a different route. It will have to be a private partner and offsets. So private parties like Tatas or reliance could be involved in this sabotage. Even without bribing the Air Force officials and babus - private companies collaborating with SAAB/LM have much to gain from seeing the LCA die.

The overall conclusion that "the air force is sabotaging the deal" is as naive as believing Pakistan when they say that terrorist were wearing saffron bands. There are enough entities with the motivation to sabotage the Tejas

The fact that LM/Saab may be involved gains more credibility if one recalls that the SE decision was to be made at the "end of 2017". By creating a strong public and air force horror at the uselessness of Tejas - the two companies Saab and/or LM may be strengthening their negotiating position. That would be a smart move. Note By quoting figures like 59 minutes versus 6 hours - it sounds like a trap for HAL and MoD to deny and reveal possible classified information that could ruin the Tejas' chances

That is why I am against jumping at the obvious - the Air Force is being openly blamed. That could simply be a scapegoat, a cover for the real culprit.

By all means write articles but I think private firms have as much incentive to sabotage Tejas as anyone else.They will talk sweet words and not be as blunt as AF people and say 3 legged Cheetah. Then they will laugh all the way to the bank.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Nov 2017 20:06

shiv wrote:
The overall conclusion that "the air force is sabotaging the deal" is as naive as believing Pakistan when they say that terrorist were wearing saffron bands. There are enough entities with the motivation to sabotage the Tejas

....
That is why I am against jumping at the obvious - the Air Force is being openly blamed. That could simply be a scapegoat, a cover for the real culprit.

By all means write articles but I think private firms have as much incentive to sabotage Tejas as anyone else.They will talk sweet words and not be as blunt as AF people and say 3 legged Cheetah. Then they will laugh all the way to the bank.

Shiv, bowing to your knowledge and wisdom, I respectfully point to the folowing
a) IA's treatment of the Arjun - the Arjun beat the T-90 in IA's "rigged trials", yet the IA ordered a 1000 more T-90s and effectively killed the Arjun.
b) Recent corruption charge against the retd IAF chief shows that the forces are clearly susceptible to "influencers". (Yatha Raja, tatha Praja type conclusion from this is natural to be drawn)
c) The inglorious Marut saga which is the direction that the IAF HAS sent the LCA to.
d) Statements from IAF chief of no Plan B - points to single minded focus on imports
e) Calling imported aircraft proven - was the SU-30 even an existing aircraft when ordered? Was there a risk that the plans would not even materialize? How proven is the Rafale - one war and it is proven? How do you "prove" an aircraft - do test flights, weaponization trials not help prove the aircraft? What we have read in the open domain and learnt from BRF interactions with pilots/HAL at Air India expos is that the LCA is at least as good as the M2K if not better.

One of the air chiefs has called the LCA a 3 legged cheetah, one called it Mig-21++ and so on. This from an airforce which has lost hundreds of pilots in peacetime due to disruptions of its spare supply due to the collapse of a supplier nation. With that type of track record, the air force faces issues with finding and keeping the required number of pilots.

I have sit through and enjoyed the post 1971 airshows put up by the airforce at the Bareilly air force base but we should neither be overzealous patriots nor over-zealous apologists. Respectfully Sir, it is extremely naive not to know the character of our nation - we grow up in an environment where bribes are paid on a regular basis for government functionaries to perform their required duties.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2017 20:11

I just went for a tea break and the chaiwala suggested that it could be some MoD baboo/cabal who are most pissed off at RM dealing directly with IAF and could well have tried to interfere and sabotage. Both IAF and HAL can verify the truth of that report and find the source if need be. In the air force the person who does that will have his balls fried. Before going with flailing arms at the Air Force please consider how many people and entities might want to do this.

Of course the truth needs to come out and lies need to be shown up. But do show caution in the blame game lest you contribute exactly to the effect desired by the madarchods who are doing this. They are not stupid.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Nov 2017 20:15

End result - India exports its wealth and jobs abroad, remains low tech, during every war, RM goes with a begging bowl to buy even coffins for our fallen brave and we sit here worshiping the corrupt. I wonder who is stupid?