LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kashi » 26 Nov 2017 19:56

Rafales being white elephants.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby TPFscopes » 26 Nov 2017 21:01

Hari Seldon wrote:India's multi-role fighter Tejas to be equipped with world's fastest cruise missile -'Brahmos Light' (Times now)

New Delhi: After the successful launch of the supersonic Brahmos cruise missile from the Sukhoi-30, ensuring a tactical advantage for the armed forces, work on 'BRAHMOS Light,' a lighter version of the missile that can be fired from the Tejas, the indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft that the Indian Air Force is acquiring, has begun.

The new version of the Brahmos will have a smaller engine. The warhead will be about the same but the weight of the missile will be considerably less. The lighter missile's range will be about the same: 300 km.

A senior defence official said it is "currently in the design stage, though initial consultations have been held." The missile is likely to be ready by 2019.

The Brahmos ('Brah' from Brahmaputra and 'Mos' from Moscow) is a missile jointly developed in the late Nineties.
Its speed makes interception difficult. As the Tejas is a lighter aircraft compared with to the Sukhoi-30 (about 1,000kg to 1,800 kg), a lighter missile becomes necessary. The IAF is looking at over 120 Tejas fighter aircraft in the future.

Not again!!!

AFAIK BrahMos-Lite is BrahMos-NG which will be almost 6m in length and 0.5m in dia.
Please someone elaborate me, Where this so called lite will be attached with LCA and what are the advantages to fit it on LCA mk1/mk1a...
BrahMos GLCM is 8.4m in length and 0.52 in dia. , compare both and get the prediction for BrahMos-NG
Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 26 Nov 2017 21:17

TPFscopes wrote:

Not again!!!

AFAIK BrahMos-Lite is BrahMos-NG which will be almost 6m in length and 0.5m in dia.
Please someone elaborate me, Where this so called lite will be attached with LCA and what are the advantages to fit it on LCA mk1/mk1a...
BrahMos GLCM is 8.4m in length and 0.52 in dia. , compare both and get the prediction for BrahMos-NG
Image


How big you think the 1200ltr EFTs of LCA are...? It can carry two of them at a time, on the inboard pylons.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby TPFscopes » 26 Nov 2017 22:14

JayS wrote:
TPFscopes wrote:Not again!!!

AFAIK BrahMos-Lite is BrahMos-NG which will be almost 6m in length and 0.5m in dia.
Please someone elaborate me, Where this so called lite will be attached with LCA and what are the advantages to fit it on LCA mk1/mk1a...
BrahMos GLCM is 8.4m in length and 0.52 in dia. , compare both and get the prediction for BrahMos-NG
Image


How big you think the 1200ltr EFTs of LCA are...? It can carry two of them at a time, on the inboard pylons.

Nice one!!
Now you are comparing 1200l of jet fuel with ~0.80kg/m^3 Density (~960kgs fuel) with a missile which will have 1200+kgs of weight. Even The empty fuel tank weighs nearly 100kgs.
let me elaborate:
fuel weight = 960kgs
Tank weight= ~100Kgs
Pylon Weight = 150Kgs
Total Weight = ~1210Kgs Which is almost equal to pylon strength

Missile Weight = 1200+Kgs (taking it as minimum) some sources are quoting it to be 1500Kgs.
Pylon Weight= 180+ Kgs
Total Weight = 1380+ Kgs Which is already more than the threshold strength.


2. Drop tanks are made to be Aerodynamically stable and release profile is totally different from Missile.
Image
For release profile goto 11 page of https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC%20con ... 0Final.pdf

3. Drop tanks are there to increase the combat radius it but with Missile it will reduced due to increase of drag.
LCA can carry 1380x2 + 800l EFT = 2760kgs + 890Kgs = 3650kgs which makes it overweight by 150kgs even when we are downplaying the expected weight of missile.
Along with this, burning of fuel makes it lighter through out its journey but missiles will not get lighter anywhere.which elaborated as lesser range.
Apart from this, you should have minimum air combat missile with you while heading towards your target, but that too will be unavailable.

Is there anything left..

Now, My question..
What is the use of Brahmos on a fighter which can carry it to max 200kms when its ground launched variant can tackle target without any threat?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Zynda » 26 Nov 2017 22:21

TPFscopes wrote:[
Total Weight = ~1210Kgs Which is almost equal to pylon strength

Edit: I found the pic which mentions weight rating of various hard points.

Image

To add what KaranM has mentioned...one scenario is that Tejas takes-off with a couple of NGs...does IFR & goes further and launches NG to cover a range/position which may not be possible by ground based launchers.

Also considering that LCA is already over designed from a structural POV, I'd assume there would be sufficient margins for qualification of a slightly heavier weapon system.
Last edited by Zynda on 26 Nov 2017 22:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Karan M » 26 Nov 2017 22:30

What is the use of Brahmos on a fighter which can carry it to max 200kms when its ground launched variant can tackle target without any threat?


The use is flexibility. A GLCM can't be easily moved 200 kms, but a fighter can quickly move to a new area and launch an attack.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 26 Nov 2017 22:55

TPFscopes wrote:
JayS wrote:
How big you think the 1200ltr EFTs of LCA are...? It can carry two of them at a time, on the inboard pylons.

Nice one!!
Now you are comparing 1200l of jet fuel with ~0.80kg/m^3 Density (~960kgs fuel) with a missile which will have 1200+kgs of weight. Even The empty fuel tank weighs nearly 100kgs.
let me elaborate:
fuel weight = 960kgs
Tank weight= ~100Kgs
Pylon Weight = 150Kgs
Total Weight = ~1210Kgs Which is almost equal to pylon strength

Missile Weight = 1200+Kgs (taking it as minimum) some sources are quoting it to be 1500Kgs.
Pylon Weight= 180+ Kgs
Total Weight = 1380+ Kgs Which is already more than the threshold strength.


2. Drop tanks are made to be Aerodynamically stable and release profile is totally different from Missile.
For release profile goto 11 page of https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC%20con ... 0Final.pdf

3. Drop tanks are there to increase the combat radius it but with Missile it will reduced due to increase of drag.
LCA can carry 1380x2 + 800l EFT = 2760kgs + 890Kgs = 3650kgs which makes it overweight by 150kgs even when we are downplaying the expected weight of missile.
Along with this, burning of fuel makes it lighter through out its journey but missiles will not get lighter anywhere.which elaborated as lesser range.
Apart from this, you should have minimum air combat missile with you while heading towards your target, but that too will be unavailable.

Is there anything left..

Now, My question..
What is the use of Brahmos on a fighter which can carry it to max 200kms when its ground launched variant can tackle target without any threat?


Density..? Really..? :-?

1. You didn't really tell me what are the dimensions of 1200ltr EFT. And how does that look vis-a-vis B-NG. BTW what was the store load capability of Su-30MKI's station between the intakes before it was modified for Brahmos-A..? I hope you get the point. :)
2. Is dropping empty drop tank same as dropping a 1.2ton missile..? Would a fully loaded EFT separate same way as the empty one..? :?:
3. How far is sufficient..? Is 200km hike in 300km range missile insignificant..? Why can't LCA has escort, when even the Brahmos loaded Su-30MKI itself will in all probability will be escorted by a buddy. (Karan already added a very good point about flexibility, the whole damn point of having so many permutations and combinations of weapons load is to have "Flexibility" in missile mission planning. Majority of time any fighter perhaps will not see most of them configurations loaded, then why take pain of doing all the integration work..? Its contingency planning).

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Suresh S » 26 Nov 2017 23:25

Before I forget a few things brought a smile on my face from shiv,s presentation in the yellseeA video.

"We the people"

"Chinese occupied Tibet"

"Traitorous Jaichands"

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SiddharthS » 27 Nov 2017 00:07

Kashi wrote:Rafales being white elephants.


Have much to say about that but will restrict myself.
Isn't it obvious, the thing costs €138.9 or $165.75 million - that is the price of three SU-30MKIs.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2017/11/ ... -cost.html

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2017 01:51

Hakeem,

I stand corrected. Somehow had no recollection of this event.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 27 Nov 2017 01:57

SiddharthS wrote:
Kashi wrote:Rafales being white elephants.


Have much to say about that but will restrict myself.
Isn't it obvious, the thing costs €138.9 or $165.75 million - that is the price of three SU-30MKIs.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2017/11/ ... -cost.html

This is Tejas thread. Please discuss costs of Rafale in that specific thread.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Khalsa » 27 Nov 2017 02:07

shiv wrote:My article in Swarajya

Who is trying to sabotage the Tejas



Nice one, Doctor.
Kudos and thanks for putting pen to the paper.

We need more of these.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 27 Nov 2017 02:28

The strike range of the Tejas is currently enough to take out almost any target of note in Pakistan and all important across the Line of Actual Control targets in China-occupied Tibet

Need more of this type of bluntness in the Indian media.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2017 04:14

JayS,

The priorities of ADA, only ADA knows. But actually at this point IAF and ADA have sat down and discussed what is required. Nobody is too worked up about FOC. No major changes are expected. They are just checking up test points, one after the other. I am told that the gun test is coming up shortly.

TPFscopes sahab,

I am with you that LCA should not be tasked to carry Brahmos-M when there are medium and heavy fighters in IAF. This is my biggest peave of the SEF procurement plan. If you make a light fighter are made to masquerade as MRCA, it looks good only on paper.

I don't know what is the weight of the Brahmos-M. But let's say the IB pylon can carry it (may be with some minimal strengthening). While carrying one Brahmos-M, Tejas can still carry 3525 ltrs of external fuel (1200 ltrs + 2*800 ltrs + 725 ltrs). While carrying 2 Brahmos-M, it can still carry 2325 ltrs of fuel externally. They have never done endurance tests on Tejas. But, with 2*1200ltrs+ 725 ltrs + LDP + 2 WVR missiles, it can easily do Bangalore to Jaisalmer (actually, with quite a bit of contingency fuel). Do you still think that Tejas with a Brahmos-M will only have a combat range of 200 kms?

But all that's on paper. I think we should wait for medium range cruise missiles with weight between 1000+-200 kgs.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 27 Nov 2017 05:24

sanjaykumar wrote:The strike range of the Tejas is currently enough to take out almost any target of note in Pakistan and all important across the Line of Actual Control targets in China-occupied Tibet

Need more of this type of bluntness in the Indian media.

MEA needs to grow a pair and put this on the table! COT is a game changer and unfortunately not one journalist in the Indian media have the b4lls to take such a courageous and patriotic stride!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 27 Nov 2017 05:34

Apologies for the OT:
For the journalists starting out, patriotism does not put dessert and wine on the table.
News houses and editorial boards, individuals have agendas.
Many journalists are pens for hire, news outlets push agendas - money makes ink flow and oils the press machines.

This will never stop - it happens in all nations. It happens more in Nations, where there is both democracy and absence of an organization that looks out for the defence labs and domestic products. AKA a marketing arm for DRDO, which promotes, markets DRDO and other Indian origin defence goods.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Nov 2017 05:44

Gagan wrote:Apologies for the OT:
For the journalists starting out, patriotism does not put dessert and wine on the table.
News houses and editorial boards, individuals have agendas.
Many journalists are pens for hire, news outlets push agendas - money makes ink flow and oils the press machines.

This will never stop - it happens in all nations. It happens more in Nations, where there is both democracy and absence of an organization that looks out for the defence labs and domestic products. AKA a marketing arm for DRDO, which promotes, markets DRDO and other Indian origin defence goods.

Having worked in the industry all the above are true. However there are nuances.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Nov 2017 05:46

Indranil wrote:Hakeem,

I stand corrected. Somehow had no recollection of this event.


It is understandable Indranil - what with a new little one at home! BTW how is the little one doing?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby brvarsh » 27 Nov 2017 06:17

The blog was a delight to read, not shying away from highlighting the shortcomings Tejas has which for all practical reasons take operational experience of years to fix. If there is a misrepresentation of facts then those elements in procurement and otherwise have to be identified and brought to books. But, above all the Ministry has to take a stance and fatness in HAL too need to be voluntarily retired.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 27 Nov 2017 07:00

One of the things that delay the FOC is called "Indeligence".

Indeligence: The genetic trait in Indians to raise issues/objections/suggestions for the sole purpose of asserting their "intelligence". Seen at almost every meeting where issues are discussed.

There are five parties who should sign off on each test point at each critical step of the test flight (from clearing for flight to accepting the results). All five of these being "Indians" and from different agencies means there is enough "Indeligence" to go around than pulav in a desi potluck.

Arguments vary from "Chhaapa nahin maara (stamp not marked)" to the infamous "Toe snag during ejection" problem. Net effect is another day delay (or month... or year... whatever)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 27 Nov 2017 07:05

A name was suggested by a friend as the source of the recent LCA article. A certain R. Pandit. Did I miss the name in all the articles that appeared? Or is this an "out of the blue" statement?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2017 08:36

ks_sachin wrote:
Indranil wrote:Hakeem,

I stand corrected. Somehow had no recollection of this event.


It is understandable Indranil - what with a new little one at home! BTW how is the little one doing?

Thank you for asking. He is a little over three weeks old now and actually not very fussy untill now. I am told that it will change shortly :-). He is progressively gaining strength and we are getting getting tired and weaker. One thing that has dawned on me through all this is how much of a greater parent a mother is. A provider can take breaks. A nurturer cannot.

Dileep wrote:One of the things that delay the FOC is called "Indeligence".

Indeligence: The genetic trait in Indians to raise issues/objections/suggestions for the sole purpose of asserting their "intelligence". Seen at almost every meeting where issues are discussed.

Funny that you say that. I was discussing this with a bunch of Bengali friends the other day. Seems to be very high in Bengal. Try getting permission to build a house there.

Sorry for the completely OT posts.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 27 Nov 2017 08:37

IR, get ready for no sleep...for the rest of your life :) The joys of parenthood.

My apologies for the OT post as well.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 27 Nov 2017 09:01

Indranil wrote: He is a little over three weeks old now and actually not very fussy untill now. I am told that it will change shortly :-)

Yes. Yes. Yes. They are much easier to manage after they are 19 years old. Should be out of shorts by then

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 27 Nov 2017 09:09

Dileep wrote:One of the things that delay the FOC is called "Indeligence".

Indeligence: The genetic trait in Indians to raise issues/objections/suggestions for the sole purpose of asserting their "intelligence". Seen at almost every meeting where issues are discussed.

There are five parties who should sign off on each test point at each critical step of the test flight (from clearing for flight to accepting the results). All five of these being "Indians" and from different agencies means there is enough "Indeligence" to go around than pulav in a desi potluck.

Arguments vary from "Chhaapa nahin maara (stamp not marked)" to the infamous "Toe snag during ejection" problem. Net effect is another day delay (or month... or year... whatever)


Well said Dileep Sir. All of us are Bhaskara, Chaanakya, Arjun and Kalidasa rolled into one. :D

@Indranil: Good to know the baby is doing fine. Behind all that effort of parenting is the greatest joy only a child can bring. Enjoy your Parenthood. :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Nov 2017 11:15

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote: He is a little over three weeks old now and actually not very fussy untill now. I am told that it will change shortly :-)

Yes. Yes. Yes. They are much easier to manage after they are 19 years old. Should be out of shorts by then

:shock: you must have some really nice 19 year olds, I'm having to pull my teeth trying to figure that age out.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 27 Nov 2017 12:05

Indranil wrote:JayS,

The priorities of ADA, only ADA knows. But actually at this point IAF and ADA have sat down and discussed what is required. Nobody is too worked up about FOC. No major changes are expected. They are just checking up test points, one after the other. I am told that the gun test is coming up shortly.



Surely IAF is still hung up with FOC if we take what HAL CMD says at face value - IAF has not given a go ahead for metal cutting of second batch of 20 jets still. I don't have to explain what does that mean to deliveries. Its rather surprising that the metal cutting for 20 FOC birds not started yet, precisely because no major changes are expected between IOC2 and FOC config. And here we keep bashing HAL for lackadaisical approach towards LCA production. No one gives so much ado to FOC because its just another milestone is continuously evolving platform and it doesn't stop production but this is India after all, here it does.

I was reading some history of Gripen yesterday. First Serial production fighter was already in final assembly stage when the total flights of flight testing programs stood at 6..! That's right 6. And that includes one landing accident of first prototype which wrote it off, only after 5 flights. The IFR probe was already inducted in 2002 in Swedish AF fighter, when the prototype to certify IFR was a whole 1 yr in future, it took first flight in 2003. Until then their AF simply carried the IFR without using it. The second Serial production jet crashed only after a handful of flights. All the weapons integration work went on well after the first batch of 30 jets were inducted. And as the jets were being inducted, Gripen still had some serious issues with its FCS. Nothing stopped the production or induction. In such scenario FOC is just a milestone. But in case of LCA its very important because its looks like its might end up delaying the deliveries, just as IOC 2 delayed deliveries of first 20 jets.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 27 Nov 2017 12:08

Dileep wrote:One of the things that delay the FOC is called "Indeligence".

Indeligence: The genetic trait in Indians to raise issues/objections/suggestions for the sole purpose of asserting their "intelligence". Seen at almost every meeting where issues are discussed.

There are five parties who should sign off on each test point at each critical step of the test flight (from clearing for flight to accepting the results). All five of these being "Indians" and from different agencies means there is enough "Indeligence" to go around than pulav in a desi potluck.

Arguments vary from "Chhaapa nahin maara (stamp not marked)" to the infamous "Toe snag during ejection" problem. Net effect is another day delay (or month... or year... whatever)


Well said. I don't know when we will learn pragmatism in complex programs such as Fighter jets. Its not like we couldn't do it. ISRO and DRDL has showed we can manage complex programs well. But that simply doesn't percolate to other areas. Whereas the joint governing committee should have expedited the progress, we still see the stake holders bitching about each other in public as if each of them were kept in dark about the status of the project.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 27 Nov 2017 12:55

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:JayS,

The priorities of ADA, only ADA knows. But actually at this point IAF and ADA have sat down and discussed what is required. Nobody is too worked up about FOC. No major changes are expected. They are just checking up test points, one after the other. I am told that the gun test is coming up shortly.



Surely IAF is still hung up with FOC if we take what HAL CMD says at face value - IAF has not given a go ahead for metal cutting of second batch of 20 jets still. I don't have to explain what does that mean to deliveries. Its rather surprising that the metal cutting for 20 FOC birds not started yet, precisely because no major changes are expected between IOC2 and FOC config. And here we keep bashing HAL for lackadaisical approach towards LCA production. No one gives so much ado to FOC because its just another milestone is continuously evolving platform and it doesn't stop production but this is India after all, here it does.

I was reading some history of Gripen yesterday. First Serial production fighter was already in final assembly stage when the total flights of flight testing programs stood at 6..! That's right 6. And that includes one landing accident of first prototype which wrote it off, only after 5 flights. The IFR probe was already inducted in 2002 in Swedish AF fighter, when the prototype to certify IFR was a whole 1 yr in future, it took first flight in 2003. Until then their AF simply carried the IFR without using it. The second Serial production jet crashed only after a handful of flights. All the weapons integration work went on well after the first batch of 30 jets were inducted. And as the jets were being inducted, Gripen still had some serious issues with its FCS. Nothing stopped the production or induction. In such scenario FOC is just a milestone. But in case of LCA its very important because its looks like its might end up delaying the deliveries, just as IOC 2 delayed deliveries of first 20 jets.


Indian forces are still new to this build your own where countries that have been doing for decades show the sort of support you describe through early induction and all that. Those countries are much more aware of R&D and production processes (i.e. lead times) as well as ROI for the manufactures (and country as a whole). But Indian forces still being used to browsing catalogue and importing wants everything at first go itself whether it makes economic sense or not is of no concern. The forces seem less inclined to be involved in long-running continuous R&D, IMO.

The forces also don't seem to care how their actions/decisions affect export prospects of indigenous products. Whereas you look at Gripen/Sweden or Rafale/France, F-16/USAF, etc, they talk up their products a lot and their manufacturers are obviously much better at marketing (both to their domestic clients and foreigners).

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2017 13:09

JayS wrote:I was reading some history of Gripen yesterday. First Serial production fighter was already in final assembly stage when the total flights of flight testing programs stood at 6..! That's right 6. And that includes one landing accident of first prototype which wrote it off, only after 5 flights. The IFR probe was already inducted in 2002 in Swedish AF fighter, when the prototype to certify IFR was a whole 1 yr in future, it took first flight in 2003. Until then their AF simply carried the IFR without using it. The second Serial production jet crashed only after a handful of flights. All the weapons integration work went on well after the first batch of 30 jets were inducted. And as the jets were being inducted, Gripen still had some serious issues with its FCS. Nothing stopped the production or induction. In such scenario FOC is just a milestone. But in case of LCA its very important because its looks like its might end up delaying the deliveries, just as IOC 2 delayed deliveries of first 20 jets.

Write an article Jay. I am not kidding.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Austin » 27 Nov 2017 13:13

Saab had tons of experience under its belt to go for production even though Gripen was under flight testing , They made Darken and Viggen before that and in 100's and had a relationship with their airforce for decades with indiginous AC , So they could take a calculated risk and started production.

That was not in our case so we were extra cautious and conservative in every thing including flight testing.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 27 Nov 2017 13:48

JayS wrote:...
Surely IAF is still hung up with FOC if we take what HAL CMD says at face value - IAF has not given a go ahead for metal cutting of second batch of 20 jets still. I don't have to explain what does that mean to deliveries. Its rather surprising that the metal cutting for 20 FOC birds not started yet, precisely because no major changes are expected between IOC2 and FOC config. And here we keep bashing HAL for lackadaisical approach towards LCA production. No one gives so much ado to FOC because its just another milestone is continuously evolving platform and it doesn't stop production but this is India after all, here it does.

...

From import lobby SEF MII point of view, the next 20 LCA FOC could be held up deliberately knowing that production will come to a halt and further delays will occur. This would be "artificial" manipulation of desperate arithmetic to pressure government to quickly approved import. The next lot is also held up because of Mk1A requirements and would also be along the same line of tactics being used. These parties know that if the LCA starts joining the AF in numbers and production increases beyond 16/year then their whole import SEF argument goes away. Some in GoI are already asking why not more LCA?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 27 Nov 2017 14:07

Srai are you implying that FOC of Tejas is being delayed for import of SE fighter aircraft?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 27 Nov 2017 14:20

JayS wrote:...
I was reading some history of Gripen yesterday. First Serial production fighter was already in final assembly stage when the total flights of flight testing programs stood at 6..! That's right 6. And that includes one landing accident of first prototype which wrote it off, only after 5 flights. The IFR probe was already inducted in 2002 in Swedish AF fighter, when the prototype to certify IFR was a whole 1 yr in future, it took first flight in 2003. Until then their AF simply carried the IFR without using it. The second Serial production jet crashed only after a handful of flights. All the weapons integration work went on well after the first batch of 30 jets were inducted. And as the jets were being inducted, Gripen still had some serious issues with its FCS. Nothing stopped the production or induction. In such scenario FOC is just a milestone. But in case of LCA its very important because its looks like its might end up delaying the deliveries, just as IOC 2 delayed deliveries of first 20 jets.


JayS, Sweden can take in paper planes and not worry a bit. Their Air Force is not really where we are. Perspectives decide a lot. FOC or not FOC but be happy with what we have is not for the IAF to decide. Someone else has to take the call.

No SE, MII, no Rafale, too many Su 30, IAF to fill up with Tejas without FOC. This is the sum total of last few years of my learning on BRF. I guess, we really are not talking of military readiness but using military to develop an industry only.

In the same time span, I have seen IAF on alert during Pathankot, Uri, Pampore, Surgical Strikes, Dokhlam and a few minor ones here and there. We cannot argue for a potent response on the 26/11 thread with impotent capabilities. Unless, it hurts your ego, it is our impotence in capabilities that we could not cross LOC in Kargil, did not do anything in 2002 despite a colossal build up, no strike on Pakistan post 26/11. It is also a sign of our frothing and anger that while we announce the surgical strike but wait a year to release any details.

Either you and I live in the same country or the way we view defence is poles apart. Defence of my nation is not a work for tomorrow. Capabilities when inducted and accepted must be available and proven. Else, a Naval Chief has cried hoarse for locally made batteries. There are many similar experiences of the Forces which cause a lot of decisions. It may butt hurt some of us, but better us than when the forces have to deliver.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 27 Nov 2017 14:51

Austin wrote:Saab had tons of experience under its belt to go for production even though Gripen was under flight testing , They made Darken and Viggen before that and in 100's and had a relationship with their airforce for decades with indiginous AC , So they could take a calculated risk and started production.

That was not in our case so we were extra cautious and conservative in every thing including flight testing.


Agreed and I don't blame anyone for what happened in first 20-25yr of LCA. But what about whatever happened post 2015 say..? But what about today..? Have we not had enough experience and learning by now..? I don't think IAF and HAL can say we do not have experience of developing products anymore. May not be as good as US entities but they do have decent experience now about systems design/integration through upgrades like DARIN, M2K, Su-30 to Su30MKI and LCA, various helis etc. Things like Brahmos integration also counts. I believe they have enough experience under their belt by now. I am rather disturbed by the HAL CMD's statement that until now the Trainer version SOP is not frozen (may be he is lying for all I know). Metal cutting has not started for FOC batch. 5 SP are already delivered 2 are eminent, so now 9 single seater of the first batch remaining. That will take a year. What after that..? By now trainers should be in sub-assembly stage and FOC batch should have been in component manufacturing stage.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 27 Nov 2017 15:16

^ Why can't the HAL order manufacture of components for FOC batch given that most components are already known and common. What about metal cutting. Why wait till tFOC. As far as IAF is concerned it has already requisitioned 83 Mk1As too. Only MOD has to get a contract signed for that.

For FOC, even the contract is signed and there is no ambiguity.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 27 Nov 2017 15:22

deejay wrote:
JayS wrote:...
I was reading some history of Gripen yesterday. First Serial production fighter was already in final assembly stage when the total flights of flight testing programs stood at 6..! That's right 6. And that includes one landing accident of first prototype which wrote it off, only after 5 flights. The IFR probe was already inducted in 2002 in Swedish AF fighter, when the prototype to certify IFR was a whole 1 yr in future, it took first flight in 2003. Until then their AF simply carried the IFR without using it. The second Serial production jet crashed only after a handful of flights. All the weapons integration work went on well after the first batch of 30 jets were inducted. And as the jets were being inducted, Gripen still had some serious issues with its FCS. Nothing stopped the production or induction. In such scenario FOC is just a milestone. But in case of LCA its very important because its looks like its might end up delaying the deliveries, just as IOC 2 delayed deliveries of first 20 jets.


JayS, Sweden can take in paper planes and not worry a bit. Their Air Force is not really where we are. Perspectives decide a lot. FOC or not FOC but be happy with what we have is not for the IAF to decide. Someone else has to take the call.

No SE, MII, no Rafale, too many Su 30, IAF to fill up with Tejas without FOC. This is the sum total of last few years of my learning on BRF. I guess, we really are not talking of military readiness but using military to develop an industry only.

In the same time span, I have seen IAF on alert during Pathankot, Uri, Pampore, Surgical Strikes, Dokhlam and a few minor ones here and there. We cannot argue for a potent response on the 26/11 thread with impotent capabilities. Unless, it hurts your ego, it is our impotence in capabilities that we could not cross LOC in Kargil, did not do anything in 2002 despite a colossal build up, no strike on Pakistan post 26/11. It is also a sign of our frothing and anger that while we announce the surgical strike but wait a year to release any details.

Either you and I live in the same country or the way we view defence is poles apart. Defence of my nation is not a work for tomorrow. Capabilities when inducted and accepted must be available and proven. Else, a Naval Chief has cried hoarse for locally made batteries. There are many similar experiences of the Forces which cause a lot of decisions. It may butt hurt some of us, but better us than when the forces have to deliver.


Bottom line is Sir, we both are on the same team. Our views, perspectives, knowledge level and expectations might be different (I know you are much senior to me in every respect) but I am pretty sure our end goals and intentions are exactly the same in this matter. I think you misunderstood me a little. I do not want untested or unreliable products pushed in service. Frankly, be it Swedish or Indians or any other country (apart from commie lunatics, jihadi pigs and some more such assorted a-holes) no sane citizen would want their soldiers to fight with unreliable and potentially hazardous weapons. Whatever may the perspective be. I will need more time than I have at hand right now to explain myself more. So I will defer the reply for later time.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 27 Nov 2017 15:41

HAL Took the entire risk of developing the trainers with no commitment from IAF, didn't they? So, what is the bigg deal of "metal cutting" for which there is clear commitment?

I think they are simply taking "advance bail" for future delays onlee.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 27 Nov 2017 15:42

^ @JayS I am pretty sure that you and I are on the same side. I am only trying to get in the Military perspective on looking at an acquisition. I maybe senior in some respects but I have little doubts on the knowledge and well thought off opinions you bring in and in those you are way senior to me. :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 27 Nov 2017 16:38

Singha wrote:loss of Tejas will not be just Tejas, but costly and long term avionics and weapons pkgs and their AMCs will all need to be imported to fit in with whatever the OEM has qualified.

no astra, astra bad bad, only amraam will do,
no saaw, SDB3 is much better
no garuda when you have a vast range of GBU with diamondbacks.
and indian EW or radar need not apply.
even the israelis were made to use the APG68v9 radar on F16I Sufa than their own 2032/2054

there are BILLIONS of $$ over 40 years at stake here. fortunes and careers could be made and unmade by pleasing the right people and toeing the right line.

Cheen air marshals must be roftl at the prospect of facing 150 imported F-solah in 2030 from the IAF (x) - so much for CNP metrics and playing the bigger game.

I am so disgusted will take vanvas from mil threads for a while and stick to L&M - atleast all everyone wants there is a good lay in the hay and none to my knowledge are import-pasand :lol:

8) Yes with you Singha. Time for vanvas myself :)


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