'Make in India' Single engined fighter

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 29 Nov 2017 23:38

ShauryaT wrote: IOW: India gets to be a free rider (minimal sweat and blood on national defense - like Japan and by definition, not a nation that can wield its sovereignty in any meaningful way, banish all thoughts of being a great independent power. India will focus on economic power primarily - but even that only in collaboration with the west and strategic power will be forsaken, say for at least 50 years. Not condoning or condemning but asking, would such a formulation be acceptable to you?

OT, but not sure where else to answer this.
A higher budgetary allocation doesnt mean utilization, earlier arrangement was like nudge wink affair of finmil adultery between indian government. Quite a bit like the cost savings by AAP govt in Delhi.
Based on increased spending powers to forces and emergency purchases, I think the govt is focussing on first utilizing the allocated portions and stop the bloated allocations. This is also because no govt would want to step on a bofors like landmine and the second easiest way is follow the loops and hurdles in procurement policies (first being the one used by AKA)

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Nov 2017 01:04

Last Fort Worth built F-16 leaves LM factory

Lockheed Martin’s last F-16 produced at its Fort Worth, Texas facility rolled out the door on 14 November, marking the end of a 40-year era for the single-engined fighter.

The last Texas-made F-16 will fly with the Iraqi air force, but over the last four decades the fourth-generation fighter has flown with 28 customers around the globe, from the US Air Force and NASA, to Israel, Venezuela and Poland.

“The Fighting Falcon Nest,” as it affectionately referred to by Lockheed employees, is dwarfed by a F-35 production line that already stretches the length of several football fields.

The fifth-generation fighter line will eventually cannibalise the smaller F-16 facility, as Lockheed makes room for the F-35 production ramp up.

Lockheed will transition F-16 production to an existing facility in Greenville, South Carolina, where it’s also planning to assemble T-50 trainer jets pending the outcome of the US Air Force's T-X trainer recapitalisation contract.

Initial activities supporting the move to South Carolina are already underway, a Lockheed spokesman says.

With several potential international sales brewing, including a $2.78 billion deal for 19 F-16Vs for Bahrain, Lockheed expects to extend F-16 production beyond 2022.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Nov 2017 01:07

Fairly interesting video of how pilots experience G forces. This is on a Gripen C. Do watch...

This Video Shows A Gripen Test Pilot Flying The Jet’s Full Display Programme And Pulling 9g
https://theaviationist.com/2017/11/29/t ... pTXRrMG.99

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 30 Nov 2017 05:12

Kartik wrote:Last Fort Worth built F-16 leaves LM factory

Data Point 1: The fifth-generation fighter line will eventually cannibalise the smaller F-16 facility, as Lockheed makes room for the F-35 production ramp up.

Data Point 2: Lockheed will transition F-16 production to an existing facility in Greenville, South Carolina, where it’s also planning to assemble T-50 trainer jets pending the outcome of the US Air Force's T-X trainer recapitalisation contract.

Data Point 3: Initial activities supporting the move to South Carolina are already underway, a Lockheed spokesman says.

Data Point 4: With several potential international sales brewing, including a $2.78 billion deal for 19 F-16Vs for Bahrain, Lockheed expects to extend F-16 production beyond 2022.

Interesting isn't it ?
No mention of India's factory move
No mention of India becoming a customer like Bahrain.

Thanks Kartik.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Nov 2017 05:29

Rakesh wrote:Fairly interesting video of how pilots experience G forces. This is on a Gripen C. Do watch...

This Video Shows A Gripen Test Pilot Flying The Jet’s Full Display Programme And Pulling 9g
https://theaviationist.com/2017/11/29/t ... pTXRrMG.99

What I found most remarkable was its roll rate. If that video isn't speeded up, and I have the faintest suspicion that it was, looking at the pilot's hand movements adjusting something on the side of the HUD, it really has a very high roll rate.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Nov 2017 05:41

Very good observation Kartik. I noticed that after you mentioned it. The other thing I noticed that when he turns or goes up, I can barely see the control stick moving. I have been told that the the F-16 has a very rigid side stick, but I thought a centre control stick would have some play. Or perhaps I am imagining it.

Did you notice the white camera on the right rearview mirror @ 5:25? BTW, this is the pilot who flew the plane...

André Brännström - Saab Test Pilot
Bio --> https://corporalfrisk.com/2016/02/16/a- ... the-pilot/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Nov 2017 05:46

A side by side comparison of Tejas and Gripen at Aero India. No speed changes. Just superimposed videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoV-Xx3B8NM

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Nov 2017 07:50

Khalsa wrote:
Kartik wrote:Last Fort Worth built F-16 leaves LM factory

Interesting isn't it ?
No mention of India's factory move
No mention of India becoming a customer like Bahrain.

Thanks Kartik.

You noticed that too Khalsa-ji?

Perhaps it was an omission.

Check this out. I saw it a few hours earlier, but was hesitant to post it. But exact same story as above.

But then I saw this...perhaps a typo.

Lockheed Martin looking to scale up India operations
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/inf ... 976838.ece

The multi-billion dollar US firm, which has delivered a dozen C-130 cargo aircraft, is also keen to offer helicopters and F-35 aircraft to the Indian Air Force.

My gut tells me that LM might flip the F-16 for the F-35, with not even a FACO line. Fulfill the strategic requirement, alliance with Amreeka, Apple Pie and all that wonderful stuff. Also just direct orders delivered from Texas. And I don't think it will be 100+ aircraft. Probably 3 - 4 squadrons (54 - 72 aircrraft) at most. Going down this path, will also avoid India having to see the Amreekis whine and nag. Make it worthwhile for LM. Lump the order in with the S-70B helicopter (24 examples to start off with), some more C-130s and they will be happy.

The IAF's twin engine requirement - if one comes to fruition in this century - will likely be fulfilled by the Rafale onlee. Just a follow on purchase of 36 aircraft at minimum. In CKD/SKD kits out of the DRAL facility at Mihan.

Then there is the order for the 57 naval carrier borne, twin engine, fighters.

Where is the funds going to come for all this, I wonder?

Or even worse, what will suffer to make up the funds for these purchases?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Nov 2017 08:05

Rakesh wrote:The other thing I noticed that when he turns or goes up, I can barely see the control stick moving. I have been told that the the F-16 has a very rigid side stick, but I thought a centre control stick would have some play. Or perhaps I am imagining it.

https://corporalfrisk.com/2016/02/16/a- ... the-pilot/

Is this the reason?

The Gripen, like most modern fighters, is built so that the pilot doesn’t have to move his hands at any point during air combat maneuvers, with all necessary switches and controls being found on the throttle lever and control stick. Hard maneuvers are further simplified by the control systems, which automatically limits steering and throttle output based on the current load condition to make sure that the aircraft (or external stores) isn’t overstressed, allowing the pilot to pull the stick and lever as hard as he wants to, knowing that he won’t break anything.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 30 Nov 2017 15:40

If IAf adds 64 and IN 57 and if they work on a more powerful engine for naval version (m88+kavs) a dhirubhai assembly line is possible.

HAL may have to stretch that mki line for another few years for sure.. if PAKFA gets delayed/cancelled maybe they can repurpose nasik for mk1A.

Where is htt40 going to be made? Has the hawk line been taken apart or they still making em?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2017 20:47

Cybaru, I don't get this huge confidence in Indian private sector that people have.
Dhirubhai et al are happy with 15% (munafa) and a monopoly (License Quota Permit Raj).

And I know Dhirubhai rise quite intimately.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2017 20:49

Rakesh and Khalsa.

With several potential international sales brewing, including a $2.78 billion deal for 19 F-16Vs for Bahrain, Lockheed expects to extend F-16 production beyond 2022.

Think how much 114 F16s will cost for IAF at that rate.
And compare to how many Tejas Mk2?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Nov 2017 21:16

Ramana-ji: Kartik posted an excellent analysis a few months back on the Bahrain F-16V deal. I believe that number worked out to ~ $150 million each plane. I do not believe a potential Indian F-16 will be any cheaper. The Gripen will be even more expensive. Estimates for SEF acquisition range from the low $15 billion to a high $25 billion. Even if these numbers are wrong, neither plane - at a minimum of 100 aircraft - will come in cheaper than $10 billion.

Replying to your other post - in the LCA dhaaga - as that is an interesting observation you have made.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 30 Nov 2017 21:28

Rakesh wrote:Very good observation Kartik. I noticed that after you mentioned it. The other thing I noticed that when he turns or goes up, I can barely see the control stick moving. I have been told that the the F-16 has a very rigid side stick, but I thought a centre control stick would have some play. Or perhaps I am imagining it.

Did you notice the white camera on the right rearview mirror @ 5:25? BTW, this is the pilot who flew the plane...

André Brännström - Saab Test Pilot
Bio --> https://corporalfrisk.com/2016/02/16/a- ... the-pilot/

Stick movements are in only a few degrees. Like <10 IIRC. But I can give you more accurate figures for Gripen. Reason is under 9G its rather difficult to make movements so if you have something which can work with only wrist movements that's better. I think the concept of HOTAS originated precisely (or at least partly) due to this that you cannot move your arms under heavy G loads so better have all essential controls right in your hands.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Nov 2017 22:20

OK let me be the first to say it. People say such things about Indians and Indian stuff and let me say it about the Gripen. That G forces dial on the side is great drama but it looks fake. It is just the sort of fake effect on video to make people go ooh and aah..

Now I've said it...

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Dec 2017 01:22

ramana wrote:Rakesh and Khalsa.

With several potential international sales brewing, including a $2.78 billion deal for 19 F-16Vs for Bahrain, Lockheed expects to extend F-16 production beyond 2022.
Think how much 114 F16s will cost for IAF at that rate.
And compare to how many Tejas Mk2?

Good God. This madness has to stop somewhere.
Its almost 2020 and we are still not learning.
Lack of Planning on that side is not an emergency on my side.

We need our own aero ecosystem. To do that, we must protect our small investments today.
I will write more on the way forward with Rakesh in this thread.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Dec 2017 01:33

What really matters is where the bomb, PGM or AAM finally arrives-at its planned destination or off target.The system/platform is principally meant to deliver ordnance repeatedly upon the enemy at diverse locations and circumstances, avoiding being hit /downed in the process.Whether it shakes its behind or wiggles its t*ts in the bargain is immaterial and the most cost-effective solution should be pursued.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Dec 2017 04:44

Hate to say this on a forum where ppl come to worship shiny mijjiles, but guys, these things are pieces of metal and hydrocarbon and some glass and rubber. 9Gs means he had enough thrust to lean over to 80 degrees roll and not fall down. Burned a lot of fuel and fa*ted a lot. There is a good reason why pilot uniforms are overalls similar to toddlers' clothes with big room in the seat area.
Some perspective is good. The reason to spend $2.7B is to keep the other side from doing $270B of damage to our people and infrastructure. To do that we have to have our own manufacturing, not keep haemorrhaging dollars to this or that. Otherwise, they simply take our $$ and use that to develop the fancier systems to sell to our adversaries.

Cheaper to sell our c*appiest systems to our adversaries directly. At least then we can use their money to develop the better system to kill them.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Dec 2017 06:02

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji: Kartik posted an excellent analysis a few months back on the Bahrain F-16V deal. I believe that number worked out to ~ $150 million each plane. I do not believe a potential Indian F-16 will be any cheaper. The Gripen will be even more expensive. Estimates for SEF acquisition range from the low $15 billion to a high $25 billion. Even if these numbers are wrong, neither plane - at a minimum of 100 aircraft - will come in cheaper than $10 billion.

Replying to your other post - in the LCA dhaaga - as that is an interesting observation you have made.

$10 billion deal would be for 100 SEF "hanger queens"

If India wants them to fly and do something then the added costs will be much more.

How much more than fly-away unit costs ? That would depend on variables like how many base infrastructure, what servicibility rates desired for how many years, how much customization, how much ToT, how many units/year production rates, how many pilots and crew training and additional training infrastructure setup, how many new weapons and their quantities desired, etc.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Dec 2017 06:28

126 SEF deal will cost nothing short 20 Billion.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2017 11:36

So the Bahrain deal has been finally signed. 16 F-16Vs for $2.3 billion

Twitter link

#Bahrain signs a deal worth over $2.3 billion to purchase 16 new F-16 fighter jets for the #RBAF

That's $143.75 per jet. Details are not clear as to what all was included in this price.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Dec 2017 18:30

Wonder if F16 manufacturing line to India includes profit-sharing. Look at the Bahrain price: those planes are basically on lease to PAF for use against India with protection from Indian pre-emptive raids. Per unit price of an F-16 for USAF these days must be well under $60M, and that gives L-M a handsome profit. So this is 2.5x markup. BrarPostResponse (BPR) Stop-clock starts now: 18:30:30.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Dec 2017 18:40

Kartik wrote:So the Bahrain deal has been finally signed. 16 F-16Vs for $2.3 billion

Twitter link

#Bahrain signs a deal worth over $2.3 billion to purchase 16 new F-16 fighter jets for the #RBAF
That's $143.75 per jet. Details are not clear as to what all was included in this price.

As expected, it is up to half a billion USD lower (depending upon how much "over" 2.3 billion it is) than the FMS announcement which is typical of how they work. Likely contents besides the aircraft, initial spares and support (ME customers are known to require long term sustainment and support and don't build up local capacity as some others do) would be construction, USG and contractor long term support, USG training etc etc.

Per unit price of an F-16 for USAF these days must be well under $60M

USAF hasn't purchased F-16's since the early 2000s. Unit Fly Away costs (since USAF procures services, spares etc separately through long term sustainment contracts and pooled inventories) would depend upon production rates that create economies of scale. The final assembly line being set up in South Carolina is unlikely to deliver more than 8-10 aircraft a year which would likely put a standard USAF F-16V (new build) at around 70-80 million a pop or similar to an F-18E being produced at a slightly higher production rate. Single digit annual production is going to significantly add to the cost and it isn't economical to boost production rate in the absence of a backlog.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Dec 2017 01:59

India is a US defence partner on a par with NATO allies: Keith Webster
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 049_1.html

Read both the questions and the answers

Q. What about the category of “major non-NATO allies” (MNNA), which the US has designated Pakistan?
A. That status was unacceptable to India because there are 15-16 nations in that category, including Pakistan. We needed to do something unique for India, which is more than what we’ve done for Pakistan.

Q. Why would India accept that its designation is above Pakistan’s in the hierarchy of allies?
A. Because our actions will prove it. Look at the F-16, the Block 70 as we call it now. That is well above your neighbour’s F-16s. What we are proposing for India, reflects its status…I don’t believe Pakistan would be sold the F-16 Block 70.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Dec 2017 14:43

Lockheed Martin says F-16 orders flowing in

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 18 Dec 2017 18:53

Mod Note: This post belongs in the Kaveri thread, not in the Single Engine thread. I have moved it there.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Dec 2017 01:24

Austin wrote:Lockheed Martin says F-16 orders flowing in

Interesting article.
The piece of the about the Turks enjoying the benefits of turning a literal wheat field into a aerospace ecosystem in tantalising and invitational. Need to be checked with evidence in ground. Last I checked , the Turks still collaborated with Israelis in many upgrades etc.
And where is the Gen 5 fighter of the Turks ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Dec 2017 04:46

The slow death of SEF...I am Happy

For the defence sector, Make in India ended before it began
https://theprint.in/2017/12/22/for-the- ... -it-began/

The aim was to initiate the process of creating India’s very own Boeings and Lockheed Martins to compete in a global market. But as things stand, Indian companies that invested in the defence sector are on the verge of bankruptcy, with some even facing insolvency litigation.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2017 05:12

Yaaas, making moolah out of our combined misery....selling F-16s to both India and Pak.Old game.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Dec 2017 14:37

Here Here Admiral Rakesh.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2017 16:59

We chose to run before we could walk.Adm.Pereira quite rightly in hindsight, rejected the offer of a nuke sub by the Sovs. as we had yet to master building conv. boats and operating western conv. boats.He wanted us to have the best of both so that eventually we could design our own.

What the GOI/MOD should've done years ago, was to select suitable major desi cos. for the supply chain for spares,O&M , etc.Once these cos. defence subsidiaries assured of volume of orders were well established, they could then graduate to OEM status taking up the slack of the principal DPSUs.Folks are quite right in scepticism whether Adani, Reliance, Tatas whoever, without even manufacturing a paper plane will be able to do better than HAL with its decades of experience. In shipbuilding some pvt. yards like L&T have proven themselves both with ships and sub components and could easily build large warships and nuclear subs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Dec 2017 20:36

Khalsa wrote:Here Here Admiral Rakesh.

Never before have I seen a US organisation who is purposefully damaging the SEF deal...I am Happy

What that basically means is that Tata will do SQUAT beyond the F-16. Nothing. Zilch.

Information security pact needed for greater defence ties: USIBC official
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 121496.ece

U.S. defence companies will not be able to partner with the Indian private sector under the ambitious Strategic Partnership (SP) policy, unless New Delhi concludes an agreement for sharing classified agreement with the U.S. Government, a senior official in the US-India Business Council (USIBC) told The Hindu.

In September, USIBC in a letter to then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley raised the issue of having control over proprietary technologies as also standing guarantee for products build domestically by the local partner.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Dec 2017 22:30

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/944174460885594115 ---> Giving up on a larger Tejas variant similar to the Gripen NG is not an option in my opinion. Such a platform can provide the industrial pre-adaptation and scale necessary for LRUs and even sub-systems that can find their way onto the AMCA package.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Dec 2017 06:02

^^^
MiG-21 class “light” replacement -> LCA Mk.1 (sufficient as originally conceived)

Mirage-2000 class “medium” supplement/replacement -> LCA Mk.2 (make it with those specs as now required)

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Dec 2017 14:29

Philip wrote:We chose to run before we could walk.Adm.Pereira quite rightly in hindsight, rejected the offer of a nuke sub by the Sovs. as we had yet to master building conv. boats and operating western conv. boats.He wanted us to have the best of both so that eventually we could design our own.

What the GOI/MOD should've done years ago, was to select suitable major desi cos. for the supply chain for spares,O&M , etc.Once these cos. defence subsidiaries assured of volume of orders were well established, they could then graduate to OEM status taking up the slack of the principal DPSUs.Folks are quite right in scepticism whether Adani, Reliance, Tatas whoever, without even manufacturing a paper plane will be able to do better than HAL with its decades of experience. In shipbuilding some pvt. yards like L&T have proven themselves both with ships and sub components and could easily build large warships and nuclear subs.

And with the LCA we have walked and now started to run but you have nothing but negativity!!!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jan 2018 07:21

Lockheed Martin hires India hand Vivek Lall
https://www.stratpost.com/lockheed-mart ... ivek-lall/

When asked how he explained his productive run at Boeing and the company’s success in India, he once told this reporter, “The products speak for themselves. People like me can only screw it up.”

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Jan 2018 06:06

^^ He will screw it up. Inshallah.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Jan 2018 06:09

ks_sachin wrote: And with the LCA we have walked and now started to run but you have nothing but negativity!!!

But..but.. the enemy planes would be shooting lasers in 5 months time, when FOC is achieved and full rate production is given a go ahead. Tales you lose, heads I win.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Jan 2018 03:14

I hope this happens

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/950029992112439296 ---> Others are realizing that building the HAL Tejas in large numbers is the only realistic option to rebuild and/or enhance squadron strength and grow the domestic aerospace industry. It is also an admission that the single-engine tender will not really take off.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jan 2018 04:59

We already had the note that TEFs would be considered to make up depleting nos., not necessarily SEFs,MMRCA redux?!