LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2017 06:35

Some un moderated tea shop talk at some village in Kerala:

Our company is starting an ASRAAM
No new program is moving in our company
The Chairman is trying to kill our division by diverting stuff to his favourite divisions. We are waiting for his exit in June onlee.
Our boss is useless onlee.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2017 07:11

nachiket wrote:
Indranil wrote:On schedule. By the way, the SPJ pod design has been completed by DARE. It has given put out a tender to manufacture 4 of these in 8 months from placement of order.

Good news. Can this pod be carried in place of the LDP or only on a regular pylon?

The plan is to carry them on a dual pylon along with an WVR on the outboard station.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2017 07:12

Dileep sahaab,

Really? That's news.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Dec 2017 07:25

Simple English translation for us lay men please?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2017 08:19

Aam khao miyaan, guthli kyon ginte ho? Somebody wants to build an ASRAAM in India.

At the other end, what would it take to change MRSAM to long range AWAC-killer?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 15 Dec 2017 08:47

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:I would like to know about SO-5 as that means the half assy line is operationalized.
I am assuming you mean SP-5? I would like to know as well. We need someone to compile & maintain a running list of SP aircraft that join No 45 Sqn and future squadrons. Good to know how the numbers are stacking up against production claims.

Sir, I had been maintaining a list and maybe you are looking for something like this.

No. 45 Squadron Indian Air Force (Flying Daggers)
First flight Dates for Tejas-LCA
SP1: 01 Oct 2014
SP2: 22 Mar 2016
SP3: 28 Sep 2016
SP4: 03 Mar 2017
SP6: 30 June 2017
SP7: 12 Dec 2017
SP5:
SP8:
SP9:
SP10:
SP11: targeted by 31-March-18.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2017 08:54

OK. Plain english: There is talk of ASRAAM integration. Not sure if that is already known, but it was new info for me.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Dec 2017 09:12

Indranil wrote:Aam khao miyaan, guthli kyon ginte ho? Somebody wants to build an ASRAAM in India.

At the other end, what would it take to change MRSAM to long range AWAC-killer?

Bhai jaan - Maaf karna, bilkul unpad hain, isi liye jaan to lein ki aam kha rahe hain ya pathar!! Great news.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Dec 2017 09:29

Dileep wrote:OK. Plain english: There is talk of ASRAAM integration. Not sure if that is already known, but it was new info for me.

Does this mean Python-5 not happening?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Dec 2017 10:11

This was predicted by Shiv Aroor in Sep.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09 ... fight.html

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 15 Dec 2017 10:13

srai wrote:
Dileep wrote:OK. Plain english: There is talk of ASRAAM integration. Not sure if that is already known, but it was new info for me.
Does this mean Python-5 not happening?

2 years for design, 1 for prototyping, 2 for internal testing, 2 for user testing and another year to set up production. The minimum time I can think of.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Dec 2017 10:40

Indranil wrote:On schedule. By the way, the SPJ pod design has been completed by DARE. It has given put out a tender to manufacture 4 of these in 8 months from placement of order.

I was under the impression that we would be buying SPJ from outside. Good we are having our own.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2017 10:47

Indranil, is it sure this is the LCA one not Su-30 one.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2017 11:07

Karan,

May be. But let's say it was for the Su-30, why wouldn't it work for the LCA, and vice versa. I was being happy that we could add it to any of our aircraft which needs it.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2017 11:11

Dileep sahaab,

I knew that Python-5 could go onto LCA only if either the aircraft or the missile changed. There is no way the aircraft will change now.

I was hoping that the modifications done for integration into JSF might make it feasible. Well time will tell.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Dec 2017 11:38

So Tejas would have ASRAAM and R-73 as WVR missile for years ahead and Python-5 is out of game ?

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 15 Dec 2017 11:43

What will be base of Tejas after Sulur ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Dec 2017 11:55

ashishvikas wrote:Sir, I had been maintaining a list and maybe you are looking for something like this.

Excellent!!! And good job compiling this. Please continue maintaining this for all at BRF.

Of this list, how many of the SPs are flying with No 45 Sqn?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Dec 2017 12:04

Kersi wrote:What will be base of Tejas after Sulur ?

The second squadron (No 18 Flying Bullets) could very well be at Sulur onlee. Like Lohegaon AFS for the Rambha (Su-30MKI) and Rambha-lite (Su-30K), Sulur AFS could serve as a model for future airbases that house the Tejas.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Dec 2017 12:11

Vivek K wrote:
Indranil wrote:Ramana sir and Rakesh,
SP-5 should join before Christmas.

By April of next year, IAF should have 10 LCAs.
Admiral - now can we have that mithai?

Mithai distribution now when Kaveri flies!

I am already regretting typing this.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2017 13:01

Indranil wrote:Karan,

May be. But let's say it was for the Su-30, why wouldn't it work for the LCA, and vice versa. I was being happy that we could add it to any of our aircraft which needs it.

Su-30 pod will be heavy ERP with high power transmitters & adapted to the requirements and timing of the Bars system.
LCA pod will be lighter & needs be adapted to the radar & RWR on the LCA.

IMHO, HAL will want radar, SPJ & RWR from same place for LCA Mk1A.

The pod, if not clearly marked as LCA, is likely for the Su-30 (my guess).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2017 13:07

Also, the issue is not that DARE can put together a SPJ - its the algorithms and software plus hardware reliability that all need to be in place.
DARE is currently flying a SPJ suite on a LCA prototype.
Its flying the heavier duty D-29 suite on the MiG-29 Upgrade.
Its been sanctioned the EW program for DARIN-3 Jaguars and the Su-30 EW.
For Su-30 it also has the Digital RWR DR-118 in development.

So technically, Indian RWR+SPJ can be mixed and matched with imported radar. However, whether it has worked out in practise is another thing altogether. It hasn't so far for the Su-30, hence the new SPJ + RWR program.

Scared of CAG, DARE and IAF did not even complete the EW fit on the MiG-27 Upgrade. If they had we would be much farther along.

So far, we don't have any confirmation that any of these advanced programs have entered operational use. The farthest along (likely), is the composite Indo-Israeli system (DRDO ESM + Israeli MAWS etc hardware + US antennae) on AEW&CS. It has been developed fastest (using OTS hardware for some systems) and is in extended trials for a while now.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 15 Dec 2017 13:14

Karan, can you do a radar update please - across all programs and services ? Any good news anywhere ?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2017 13:24

Indranil wrote:Dileep sahaab,

I knew that Python-5 could go onto LCA only if either the aircraft or the missile changed. There is no way the aircraft will change now.

I was hoping that the modifications done for integration into JSF might make it feasible. Well time will tell.

The last I heard, the solution for Python-5 was made already, so it will be there. ASRAAM is new news to me.

The attitude is, if it can be done, why not? We can mix, match, use whatever lying around etc na? There are missiles used by other platforms, including those are retired. Use them onlee. It is our plane onlee.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 Dec 2017 15:38

Rakesh wrote:

Kartik wrote:A poster on another forum mentioned that SP-8 too is likely to have its first flight by the end of December. Once handed over to No.45 squadron, they'll be at half strength.

Khalsa, the IAF has identified No.18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets', Flying Officer Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon's squadron, as the next Tejas squadron. An honor. Activities to start the squadron formation tasks should start next year, since No.45 squadron would have received all its jets by March 2019.

Many thanks Admiral & Kartik.
Yes an honor indeed for Sekhon's squadron.
I am sure there is a lot of legacy here for the Gnat squadron going to the Tejas.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 15 Dec 2017 17:49

So would the 18 squadron also carry out the exploitation study like 45 squadron has been doing since raising?? I ask because the 45 sqn was earlier operating the MiG 21Bis while the last aircraft that 18 sqn operated was the MiG 27M.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Dec 2017 18:06

Not necessarily. No 45 sqn is very much like No 20 Sqn, when it was raised with the first Rambha sqn in 2002 at Lohegaon AFS, Pune. No 20 was tasked with creating an operational doctrine and SOPs for the Rambha. There is a video on youtube of No 20 Sqn doing this. I will find it and post it. In the same manner, No 45 Sqn is doing the same. All teething issues (normal with a new bird - extra precautions will be taken because it is OUR bird - cannot afford the risk - naysayers and foreign vendors are waiting like ravening wolves to pounce when something goes wrong) are being dealt with in Bangalore onlee before moving to Sulur. From there, future Tejas sqns will adopt that model.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 15 Dec 2017 18:21

Many thanks, Admiral saare!! I asked because the 18 sqn was numberplated recently so if the squadron is reconstituted with some of its previous members, they would have the knowledge of ground attack straight off.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Dec 2017 18:54

You are welcome Bala-ji.

This is the video I am referring to about No 20 Sqn tasked with creating an operational doctrine & SOPs for the Rambha.

Listen from 4:25 p.m. onwards --->

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 15 Dec 2017 20:05

Dileep wrote:
Indranil wrote:Dileep sahaab,

I knew that Python-5 could go onto LCA only if either the aircraft or the missile changed. There is no way the aircraft will change now.

I was hoping that the modifications done for integration into JSF might make it feasible. Well time will tell.
The last I heard, the solution for Python-5 was made already, so it will be there. ASRAAM is new news to me.

The attitude is, if it can be done, why not? We can mix, match, use whatever lying around etc na? There are missiles used by other platforms, including those are retired. Use them onlee. It is our plane onlee.

Sir, is this going to be a prerequisite for FOC ?

And any similar talk on ASTRA integration ?

Also, wanted to know are they thinking of integrating both on 2032+AESA OR AESA only ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Dec 2017 20:49

Would like to look at Tejas and Su-30 together, would be some contrast.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Dec 2017 22:01

Dileep wrote:OK. Plain english: There is talk of ASRAAM integration. Not sure if that is already known, but it was new info for me.

Why does one platform need to carry 3 damned ccms?

Vivek K wrote:
Indranil wrote:Aam khao miyaan, guthli kyon ginte ho? Somebody wants to build an ASRAAM in India.
Bhai jaan - Maaf karna, bilkul unpad hain, isi liye jaan to lein ki aam kha rahe hain ya pathar!! Great news.

What makes this such good news?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 15 Dec 2017 22:24

Cain Marko wrote:
Dileep wrote:OK. Plain english: There is talk of ASRAAM integration. Not sure if that is already known, but it was new info for me.
Why does one platform need to carry 3 damned ccms?

Vivek K wrote: Bhai jaan - Maaf karna, bilkul unpad hain, isi liye jaan to lein ki aam kha rahe hain ya pathar!! Great news.
What makes this such good news?

So you can tap into any countries stores by way of emergency purchase if we ever have to go to war. If there is war with China, we will likely not be able to get Russian supplies. Similarly, if we go to war with Pakistan, its likely that at least some western supplies will be cut off.

Tejas may be the only platform in India that would still be able to bring the fight to the enemy in the face of an embargo by either the Eastern or the Western camp.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 15 Dec 2017 22:38

^^Nitpicking: sudeep you are assuming the two entities China and pak are independent. What if there is a two front war. That further increases the need of stock tejas spares

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 16 Dec 2017 00:12

Amazing video Hakim ji! But Wing Commander Rathore says something that is the procurement mafia (and pimps') nightmare. He stresses the importance of tactics stating that we cannot buy new or upgrade all the time. But we can defeat the enemy with better tactics.

That was the USAF's experience when faced with the Japanese "zero" fighters. The Zero turned tighter than the allied fighters (P-40, P-47 etc.) and so tactics evolved where they learnt to turn the fight towards their strengths - faster climb rates.

So I say, cancel the Rafale, buy more LCAs, add refuellers and AWACS. The LCA will rule the skies in such an environment.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Dec 2017 00:21

Dileep wrote:OK. Plain english: There is talk of ASRAAM integration. Not sure if that is already known, but it was new info for me.

Livefist mentioned it, stating that the ASRAAM may take the place of the Python V.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Dec 2017 00:41

Can the ASRAAM be integrated with the DASH HMCS?

It's lighter than the R-73 with around the same dimensions, so no problem carrying it on the LCA's outermost pylons. This is what happens when you own everything about the platform. We can decide to integrate almost any weapon available with the IAF on it as long as there is no weight/size limitation and are not hamstrung with issues like the Python-5 integration.

SiddharthS · Post by **SiddharthS** » 16 Dec 2017 00:43

This two-front war narrative must be retired. India is facing something even much more alarming: multi-front insecurity. China is usurping all the countries surrounding India by way of military and economic assistance. To counter this strategy , Tejas MK1a and other military hardware has to find its place in almost all of India's and few of china's neighbours.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Dec 2017 00:48

Thakur_B wrote:
srai wrote: Does this mean Python-5 not happening?
2 years for design, 1 for prototyping, 2 for internal testing, 2 for user testing and another year to set up production. The minimum time I can think of.

and less than one hour for some vested interest lobby in dilli to kill the entire project.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 16 Dec 2017 03:49

Question about the Tejas, do the wings function as fuel tanks or all the fuel is carried in fuselage tanks?