Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Dec 2017 14:40

This is the system used in K4
Front end tractor motor
Or nose pull like pulling a bull with a nose ring
https://youtu.be/TSn6_p8DTww

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Dec 2017 14:44

And this
https://youtu.be/7tn3szmlvxU

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Dec 2017 15:00

Basically there is still a gas generator but the nose ring creates a cavitation bubble coat allowing speedier ejection and traction above the surface. You can see the main motor kicking off later

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Dec 2017 15:22

To quote from fas.org wrt the D-19 launch system
missile is suspended in the launch tube from a special control mounted in the nose cone, with a reference ring at the top of the tube functioning as the launch support. The dry launch from the tube is accomplished with a gas generator located on the bottom of the tube in a cavity of the first stage engine nozzle. During lift-off special solid-propellant charges create a gas bubble around the missile considerably reducing hydrodynamic resistance. Ignition of the first stage engine occurs after leaving the tube.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Dec 2017 18:37

The nose ring is to create a cavitation bubble within which the missile travels. Many missile launches have failed because water entered the exhaust vent below the missile.

The gas generator is very interesting itself. It is an explosive charge, that vapourizes the water around converting it into steam in an instant. This pushes the missile out of the launch tube.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Dec 2017 19:25

The details of this is available as the D-19 launch system which was used in the R-39 missile (from globalsecurity.org)

The missile is suspended in the launch tube from a special control mounted in the nose cone, with a reference ring at the top of the tube functioning as the launch support. In the launch tubes [literally "mine"] of submarine the rocket is in a suspended state, relying on the launching platform (carrier ring), located in the upper part of the tube. The ARSS ensures the amortization of rocket, hermetic sealing the cavity of mine and safety of rocket for the submarine, it allows the submerged submarine rocket carrier from the tube to the significant depth opened by cover. All load-bearing elements of rocket, necessary with its operation on the ground environment and aboard the ship, with exception of middle supporting skirt, are placed on the ARSS and housing of rear compartment, jettisoned in the initial phase of flight after the output of rocket from the water.

The dry launch from the tube is accomplished with a gas generator located on the bottom of the tube in a cavity of the first stage engine nozzle. Missile takeoff is achieved from "dry" tube with the aid of the solid-propellant gas generator, placed on the bottom of mine in the engine nozzle of first stage. During lift-off special solid-propellant charges create a gas bubble around the missile considerably reducing hydrodynamic resistance. At the moment of launch a special solid-propellant grain, located on the ARSS, create the gas current protection in the form of cavity, which decreases the hydrodynamic loads on the rocket. Command to the starting of first-stage engine will be given at the moment of the output of rocket from the tube. Ignition of the first stage engine occurs after leaving the tube. With start of the first-stage engine after exiting from the water the rocket for the purpose of providing safety of submarine takes away to the side. Starting system in flight is removed by special engines from the rocket and also it takes away to the side.

Flight control during the active leg of the first stage is attained by injecting gases from the combustion chamber of the sustainer into the nozzle through 8 symmetrically located injection valves. The engines of the second and third stage used gimbaled nozzles for guidance. Instrument compartment with the cupola is located in the nose section of rocket. It is joined with the housing of the post-boost control system - PBCS - [literally "step of breeding"] with the aid of a flanged joint. Together they form the divided head part. Instrument compartment consists of two airtight, divided by intermediate bottom sections: it cut off three-stage gyrostabilizer with the astroing-sight device, closed with the expendable in flight cupola, and cut off control-system equipment, located on the amortization frame. The PBCS is butted with the instrument compartment, in it combat blocks are placed. The two-mode liquid engine installation of MIRVing and separable third-stage engine is installed on the housing of the post-boost control system.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Dec 2017 10:36

Any news of K-4 test ? Eagerly waiting for the test

la.khan · Post by **la.khan** » 17 Dec 2017 14:11

Work to integrate Brahmos on 40 Sukhoi aircraft begins

The work to integrate the Brahmos missile on 40 Sukhoi combat aircraft has begun. A timeline for the project is being set, official sources said without elaborating. it is learnt that the project is expected to be completed by 2020.

The fleet of 40 Sukhoi jet will undergo structural modifications at the state-run aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for integration of the missile on them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Dec 2017 20:03

Any news about the on and off "Surya", said to be the real deal?

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 17 Dec 2017 21:44

Anyone has news of the SLBM test ?

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 17 Dec 2017 22:41

Philip wrote:Any news about the on and off "Surya", said to be the real deal?

Some Countries do not acknowledge it like Arihant until it's time to reveal poker hand and surprise the enemy. Even enemies knows about it which is why they try to poke India to reveal the hand. I will not be surprised if India have a program of development of battlefield nukes too. This is what mature democracies do. Chinese may never know capabilities of American state that is why they are using the proxies like NoKo as scapegoat to find out what it might be to fight a full might to American state and try to mould themselves when it comes to annexing Taiwan if it ever has to.

kit · Post by **kit** » 18 Dec 2017 02:01

ashish raval wrote:
Philip wrote:Any news about the on and off "Surya", said to be the real deal?
Some Countries do not acknowledge it like Arihant until it's time to reveal poker hand and surprise the enemy. Even enemies knows about it which is why they try to poke India to reveal the hand. I will not be surprised if India have a program of development of battlefield nukes too. This is what mature democracies do. Chinese may never know capabilities of American state that is why they are using the proxies like NoKo as scapegoat to find out what it might be to fight a full might to American state and try to mould themselves when it comes to annexing Taiwan if it ever has to.

i very well think india has working designs for sub kiloton "tactical " warheads ..( and use it despite the professed full fledged all out response to a pakistani adventure ). when the time comes the dialup megaton mirvs as well ..for china

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 18 Dec 2017 09:18

kit wrote:
i very well think india has working designs for sub kiloton "tactical " warheads ..( and use it despite the professed full fledged all out response to a pakistani adventure ). when the time comes the dialup megaton mirvs as well ..for china

we tested sub kiloton weapons in P2?!! How else tactical weapons are different

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 18 Dec 2017 20:04

prasannasimha wrote:Anyone has news of the SLBM test ?

No news, but can they maintain complete secrecy ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Dec 2017 03:27

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942738486582317057 -- > Possibly the first *official* mention of DRDO's Standoff Anti-Tank (SANT) missile, an extended range version of the HELINA (10-12 km), possibly with a new seeker.

Very little info from the DRDO website on SANT --> https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vi ... icro=19971

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Dec 2017 03:29

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942735045634093056 --> In 2017, India conducted flight trials for the following home-grown air launched weapons:

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Dec 2017 03:30

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942734253032214534 ---> IAF completed integration of Textron Defense CBU-105 sensor fuzed weapon on its Jaguars in September 2017.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Dec 2017 03:44

Glide Bomb SAAW: Guided weapon’s success proof of DRDO prowess in developing indigenous capability
http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... ty/978209/

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) recently successfully tested the guided bomb which is capable of destroying airstrips. The weapon has been under development by the state-owned agency in collaboration with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Research Centre Imarat (RCI). To be inducted soon into the Armed Forces, the lightweight Glide Bomb, SAAW (Smart Anti Airfield Weapon) is capable of engaging ground targets with high precision up to a range of 100 kms, and can be launched from SU-30 aircraft. The indigenous lightweight high precision guided bomb is being touted as a world-class weapon system. Director General, Missiles and Strategic System, DRDO, G Satheesh Reddy described it as “a significant milestone in the indigenous capability to develop guided bombs”. The guided bomb, successfully tested from IAF aircraft at Integrated Test Range (ITR), Odisha and guided through precision navigation system, reached the targets at greater than 70 km range, with high accuracy. A total of three tests with different release conditions and ranges were conducted and all were successful.

According to DRDO, conventional 1000 lb class of aircraft bombs offer more drag, thereby adversely attesting the operational efficiency of modern high speed aircraft. Keeping this in view, DRDO has designed and developed high speed low drag (HSLD) bombs suitable for carriage and release by modern aircraft. These bombs are effective against ground targets like railway yards /bridges, major installations, bunkers, runways and hardened targets. Earlier this year, IAF had also successfully tested 500-kg precision guided HSLD bomb in Rajasthan. Developed by the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), General Purpose Bomb ‘PGHSLD-500’ underwent flight trials released from Su-30MKI at Air Force Station, Jodhpur, fitted on a hard point and was released from an altitude of 5 km to validate its separation performance and to estimate stability. During the carriage trials, the aircraft touched the carriage limits of 0.85 at 150 m altitude and completed 6.5 ‘g’ and full roll manoeuvres. The bomb can be carried on various in-service aircraft like Jaguar, MiG and other advanced combat aircraft of the IAF.

Scheduled to be ready in seven years, the next-generation airborne early warning and control system (AWACS), with a 360-degree scan and angle of coverage as against 200-km range, is being developed by the DRDO. It would also double up as an air-to-air refueller following a request by the IAF, according to DRDO, making India the second country in the world after Israel to develop such a system. The Airbus A-330, a medium to long-range wide-body twin-engine jet, which emerged as the single bidder for the tender floated by India, is expected to be the platform for the next generation AWACS systems, which will double up as mid-air refuellers. Today, the indigenous 240-degree angle of Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) built by the DRDO on the Brazilian Embraer-145 modified jet for the IAF is already in service. The new system being developed by DRDO would have AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars with 360-degree capability, which can detect incoming aerial threats like hostile fighters, drones and cruise missiles from 400 km away. The IAF is already using the Israeli Phalcon AWACS on the Russian IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft—though it is a fuel guzzler—to detect aerial threats from jets or missiles even from targets 400 km away.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 03:44

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942734253032214534 ---> IAF completed integration of Textron Defense CBU-105 sensor fuzed weapon on its Jaguars in September 2017.

That was one long integration process -- 5-years from the time the IAF started receiving them on Nov 02 2012. The request to buy was made in 2008.

Flash! Textron Begins CBU-105 Weapon Deliveries To India

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2017 04:33

srai, More likely linked to the DARIN III upgrade for the Jaguars.
The IOC was in Nov 2016. Hence the integration test in Sep 2017.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Dec 2017 08:57

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942734253032214534 ---> IAF completed integration of Textron Defense CBU-105 sensor fuzed weapon on its Jaguars in September 2017.

The risk faced by an aircraft delivering this munition, requiring overflying a target is the same or greater than the risk of using unguided rockets which allow the aircraft to turn away before overflying a defended target. I say this is the context of an earlier discussion where it was claimed that unguided rockets have become obsolete or will soon become obsolete. No more so than CBU-105

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 19 Dec 2017 09:26

shiv wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942734253032214534 ---> IAF completed integration of Textron Defense CBU-105 sensor fuzed weapon on its Jaguars in September 2017.

The risk faced by an aircraft delivering this munition, requiring overflying a target is the same or greater than the risk of using unguided rockets which allow the aircraft to turn away before overflying a defended target. I say this is the context of an earlier discussion where it was claimed that unguided rockets have become obsolete or will soon become obsolete. No more so than CBU-105

saar, isnt CBU 105 be delivered at a greater height?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2017 09:52

i have read of B52 releasing from 40,000 feet in OIF.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Dec 2017 09:56

ArjunPandit wrote: saar, isnt CBU 105 be delivered at a greater height?

So much the better for early detection of intruding aircraft. It is still a gravity bomb and not a stand-off weapon.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 10:06

shiv wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942734253032214534 ---> IAF completed integration of Textron Defense CBU-105 sensor fuzed weapon on its Jaguars in September 2017.

The risk faced by an aircraft delivering this munition, requiring overflying a target is the same or greater than the risk of using unguided rockets which allow the aircraft to turn away before overflying a defended target. I say this is the context of an earlier discussion where it was claimed that unguided rockets have become obsolete or will soon become obsolete. No more so than CBU-105

It's the new integrations that will tell how important rockets are on fixed wings platforms

Are we going to see IAF's Jaguars, Mirage-2000s, LCAs, MiG-29s, Su-30MKI and Rafales doing rocket attacks in the future?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Dec 2017 10:50

The problem with rockets is pilot has to keep the aircraft at relatively low level in Man pad/ AAA territory, dodging AAA and hoping Mapads are deflected, flying fast close to the ground, acquire targets visually and within those fraction of seconds aim and fire and hope he scores a hit.

Some equivalent of AGM 65/AASM/CBG 105 these days should the job a bit better

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 19 Dec 2017 11:51

srai wrote:...
It's the new integrations that will tell how important rockets are on fixed wings platforms Are we going to see IAF's Jaguars, Mirage-2000s, LCAs, MiG-29s, Su-30MKI and Rafales doing rocket attacks in the future?

Yes, if required.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 13:19

Does the IAF hold rockets/rocket pods for its Jaguar, Mirage-2000, and MiG-29 fleet? They have been in service for 30-years, but I don't recall seeing photos of them carrying and firing rockets. Are pilots actively trained on these platforms to fire rockets?

How about for Su-30MKI? LCA hasn't been integrated with rockets yet (not required for FOC). Same with Rafales (around 10-15-years in service with FrAF no rocket integrated yet).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Dec 2017 15:41

Aditya_V wrote:The problem with rockets is pilot has to keep the aircraft at relatively low level in Man pad/ AAA territory, dodging AAA and hoping Mapads are deflected, flying fast close to the ground, acquire targets visually and within those fraction of seconds aim and fire and hope he scores a hit.

Some equivalent of AGM 65/AASM/CBG 105 these days should the job a bit better

That is why they practice practice and practice. They are not in it for fun. Lots of things may "do the job better" but let us not get carried away by stories. Even in the gulf war - only 10% (or something like that) of US munitions were smart - the rest were dumb. Cost, availability and ease of production in large quantities matters.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Dec 2017 15:58

srai wrote:
shiv wrote:
The risk faced by an aircraft delivering this munition, requiring overflying a target is the same or greater than the risk of using unguided rockets which allow the aircraft to turn away before overflying a defended target. I say this is the context of an earlier discussion where it was claimed that unguided rockets have become obsolete or will soon become obsolete. No more so than CBU-105
It's the new integrations that will tell how important rockets are on fixed wings platforms Are we going to see IAF's Jaguars, Mirage-2000s, LCAs, MiG-29s, Su-30MKI and Rafales doing rocket attacks in the future?

MiG 29 no
Jaguar yes
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... s.jpg.html
From my old Geocities page - an image that I had scanned from Vayu

Su 30 MKI the capability exists
Image - not Indian
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... hdfzqk.jpg

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 16:07

^^^
Good find of an old photo of the IAF Jaguar IM. Still using rockets?

There are also old photos from Dassault testing rockets on Mirage-2000 like the one you found for Su-27/30. But wanted to see if that capability exists in the IAF for those platforms and if pilots are trained for it actively.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Dec 2017 16:08

To armcahir marshals:

If you were commanding a squadron of aircraft - be they MiG 21, or Tejas or Jaguar and in the middle of conflict you were reasonably confident of air superiority in a particular zone and had to allot the task of sending a couple of fighters flying into the rear areas behind the enemy's front line to take out targets of opportunity - they may be trucks, ammunition dumps, fuel dumps, trains or anything that showed itself - what munitions would the planes be loaded with?

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 16:10

^^^
Take a look at Vayu Shakti videos

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 19 Dec 2017 17:15

shiv wrote:
srai wrote: It's the new integrations that will tell how important rockets are on fixed wings platforms Are we going to see IAF's Jaguars, Mirage-2000s, LCAs, MiG-29s, Su-30MKI and Rafales doing rocket attacks in the future?
MiG 29 no
Jaguar yes
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... s.jpg.html
From my old Geocities page - an image that I had scanned from Vayu

Su 30 MKI the capability exists
Image - not Indian
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... hdfzqk.jpg

That's a Sea Eagle

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 19 Dec 2017 17:16

srai wrote:^^^
Good find of an old photo of the IAF Jaguar IM. Still using rockets?

There are also old photos from Dassault testing rockets on Mirage-2000 like the one you found for Su-27/30. But wanted to see if that capability exists in the IAF for those platforms and if pilots are trained for it actively.

IAF also used / uses S 24 rockets on the MiG 27, one under each wing

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 19 Dec 2017 17:20

shiv wrote:To armcahir marshals:

If you were commanding a squadron of aircraft - be they MiG 21, or Tejas or Jaguar and in the middle of conflict you were reasonably confident of air superiority in a particular zone and had to allot the task of sending a couple of fighters flying into the rear areas behind the enemy's front line to take out targets of opportunity - they may be trucks, ammunition dumps, fuel dumps, trains or anything that showed itself - what munitions would the planes be loaded with?

Admiral Kapil and myself will fly a Tigermoth or a HT 2 and drop hand grenades. If I have air superiority, why waste the flying hours on a high performance high maintainence fighter ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 17:22

Kersi wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Good find of an old photo of the IAF Jaguar IM. Still using rockets?

There are also old photos from Dassault testing rockets on Mirage-2000 like the one you found for Su-27/30. But wanted to see if that capability exists in the IAF for those platforms and if pilots are trained for it actively.
IAF also used / uses S 24 rockets on the MiG 27, one under each wing

MiG-21 and MiG-27 are retiring soon. Want to know about the ones that will remain and the ones that are coming in.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 19 Dec 2017 17:22

Kersi wrote:
That's a Sea Eagle

Note the portside outer pylon

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 19 Dec 2017 17:24

sudhan wrote:
Kersi wrote:
That's a Sea Eagle
Note the portside outer pylon

AAhhhhhhaaa You got me !!!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 19 Dec 2017 17:35

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942738486582317057 -- > Possibly the first *official* mention of DRDO's Standoff Anti-Tank (SANT) missile, an extended range version of the HELINA (10-12 km), possibly with a new seeker.

Very little info from the DRDO website on SANT --> https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vi ... icro=19971

Nice to hear something about SANT. Are we planning to put it on our fighters as well..?