Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 17:53

Old news but has good details.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Dec 2017 19:17

If a test target can be set up with heat signature from another tank, I take dummies can be set during war using this method!

Or a method to fool incoming ATGM. in some way.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Dec 2017 19:18

nam wrote:If a test target can be set up with heat signature from another tank, I take dummies can be set during war using this method!

Or a method to fool incoming ATGM. in some way.

If the dummies do not move forward with advancing enemy tanks no one will worry about them. Better motorize them

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Dec 2017 20:16

shiv wrote:From my old Geocities page - an image that I had scanned from Vayu

Is your geocities page still around? Prior to Rupak's IAF page in 1996....I believe you had the first IAF picture gallery anywhere on the internet. If it is still there, can you please show me the link? I would love to visit for nostalgia purposes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Dec 2017 20:37

Rakesh wrote:
shiv wrote:From my old Geocities page - an image that I had scanned from Vayu
Is your geocities page still around? Prior to Rupak's IAF page in 1996....I believe you had the first IAF picture gallery anywhere on the internet. If it is still there, can you please show me the link? I would love to visit for nostalgia purposes.

Rakesh it turns out that my page ended up being preserved by a site called "oocities"
http://www.oocities.org/hotsprings/2839/aircraft.html

The link to BR still works...

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Dec 2017 21:18

After the air launched Brahmos, can they manage to put a booster on the CBU-105 for increasing the standoff range? US talks about flying pylons that slightly increase the range of the existing AAMs implying no modifications to the payload itself

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2017 21:32

cost and complexity increases more the range and the launch a/c can no longer have a direct view of the target.

you are talking of the JSOW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154_J ... off_Weapon

AGM-154B (anti-armor)
The warhead for the AGM-154B is the BLU-108/B from the Air Force's Sensor Fuzed Weapon (SFW) program. The JSOW B was to carry six BLU-108/B submunitions. Each submunition releases four projectiles (total of 24 per weapon) that use infrared sensors to detect targets. When a submunition detects that it is aligned with a target, it fires, creating an explosively formed penetrator capable of defeating vehicle armor.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2017 21:37

we need 2 things - the chassis itself - garuda, garudamma and saaw are already in IOC.

the weapon - the IIR or MMW fused warhead - perhaps Nag project can provide this tech through domestic seekers which have to be low cost for wide use.

khan has families of delivery chassis, families of sensors and families of warheads and can cobble together a mix and match soln quite fast.

also they have proven aircraft to weapon data link.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2017 21:48

DRDO has its own sensor fuzed weapon (SFW) akin to those deployed by CBU-105. Might not be working well enough that IAF had to import these US made weapons. Its like an anti-tank grenade with shaped charge. The Pinaka also was to deploy them in one version.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2017 21:57

JayS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/942738486582317057 -- > Possibly the first *official* mention of DRDO's Standoff Anti-Tank (SANT) missile, an extended range version of the HELINA (10-12 km), possibly with a new seeker.

Very little info from the DRDO website on SANT --> https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vi ... icro=19971
Nice to hear something about SANT. Are we planning to put it on our fighters as well..?

JayS,

Nag is barely clearing ground trials. The HELINA is to arm the anti tank helicopters. This SANT is same genre.

Now to ask aircraft to be armed with a helicopter weapon is under kill and puts the aircraft in harms way.

Only anti-tank aircraft weapon I recall is the Maverick by the UASF which has a 125 lb warhead and can take out bridge pylons too.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Dec 2017 22:06

shiv wrote:
nam wrote:If a test target can be set up with heat signature from another tank, I take dummies can be set during war using this method!

Or a method to fool incoming ATGM. in some way.
If the dummies do not move forward with advancing enemy tanks no one will worry about them. Better motorize them

Ofcourse, remote controlled vehicles/ UGV.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2017 22:13

Shiv, The Jaguars were armed with a British cluster bomb called BL-755 for use against tanks.
I think DRDO tried to copy it and it didn't work. Ved Shenag used to complain of this effort.

Maybe the CBU-105 are replacements for the BL-755.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755

Note the radar altimeter fuze to ensure dispersal at height rather than suicidal flights like in Desert Storm.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 19 Dec 2017 22:20

I think Brimstone is a missile which is designed specifically for anti-tank operations from fast moving fliers.

Brimstone WIKI

India has made a request for information about integrating Brimstone on their Sukhoi Su-30MKI fleet.

Operational range:
Brimstone I:
20+ km (12+ mi) from fixed wing, 12 km (7.5 mi) from rotor wing

Brimstone II:
60+ km (37+ mi) from fixed wing, 40+ km (25+ mi) from rotor wing[3][N 1]

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2017 22:28

IDRW with its warning notice:

http://idrw.org/india-sheds-light-on-ne ... velopment/

Looks like captive flight trials for SANT just reported today.
range 15-20 km.
Radar sensor.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2017 22:31

ramana wrote:
JayS wrote:
Nice to hear something about SANT. Are we planning to put it on our fighters as well..?

JayS,

Nag is barely clearing ground trials. The HELINA is to arm the anti tank helicopters. This SANT is same genre.

Now to ask aircraft to be armed with a helicopter weapon is under kill and puts the aircraft in harms way.

Only anti-tank aircraft weapon I recall is the Maverick by the UASF which has a 125 lb warhead and can take out bridge pylons too.

MBDA Brimstone

Brimstone I:
20+ km (12+ mi) from fixed wing, 12 km (7.5 mi) from rotor wing

Brimstone II:
60+ km (37+ mi) from fixed wing, 40+ km (25+ mi) from rotor wing

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 20 Dec 2017 00:53

shiv wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: saar, isnt CBU 105 be delivered at a greater height?
So much the better for early detection of intruding aircraft. It is still a gravity bomb and not a stand-off weapon.

Thanks for pointing that out

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Dec 2017 09:45

nam wrote:
shiv wrote:
If the dummies do not move forward with advancing enemy tanks no one will worry about them. Better motorize them
Ofcourse, remote controlled vehicles/ UGV.

So the opposing army will have to look after the logistics requirements of their dummies also. That would be an advantage for us..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Dec 2017 09:46

ramana wrote:Shiv, The Jaguars were armed with a British cluster bomb called BL-755 for use against tanks.
I think DRDO tried to copy it and it didn't work. Ved Shenag used to complain of this effort.

Maybe the CBU-105 are replacements for the BL-755.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755

Note the radar altimeter fuze to ensure dispersal at height rather than suicidal flights like in Desert Storm.

I have a video of Jaguars dropping BL 755
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oegPHTyWA

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2017 10:41

This is a BRIMSTONE equivalent first reported on BR by me several years back. I had cited a public reference by an IDSA paper for the same.
This likely uses the MMW sensor development for Nag & an extended propulsion + datalink system developed for the HELINA.

ramana wrote:Shiv, The Jaguars were armed with a British cluster bomb called BL-755 for use against tanks.
I think DRDO tried to copy it and it didn't work. Ved Shenag used to complain of this effort.

Maybe the CBU-105 are replacements for the BL-755.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755

Note the radar altimeter fuze to ensure dispersal at height rather than suicidal flights like in Desert Storm.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Dec 2017 10:48

ramana wrote:Shiv, The Jaguars were armed with a British cluster bomb called BL-755 for use against tanks.
I think DRDO tried to copy it and it didn't work. Ved Shenag used to complain of this effort.

Maybe the CBU-105 are replacements for the BL-755.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755

Note the radar altimeter fuze to ensure dispersal at height rather than suicidal flights like in Desert Storm.

ramana as per kookal the radar altimeter height setting is dependent on the area required for dispersal. More dispersed targets - greater area - higher altitude setting.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 20 Dec 2017 12:21

ramana wrote:
JayS wrote:
Nice to hear something about SANT. Are we planning to put it on our fighters as well..?

JayS,

Nag is barely clearing ground trials. The HELINA is to arm the anti tank helicopters. This SANT is same genre.

Now to ask aircraft to be armed with a helicopter weapon is under kill and puts the aircraft in harms way.

Only anti-tank aircraft weapon I recall is the Maverick by the UASF which has a 125 lb warhead and can take out bridge pylons too.

Brimstone

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Dec 2017 12:39

ramana wrote:
JayS,

Nag is barely clearing ground trials. The HELINA is to arm the anti tank helicopters. This SANT is same genre.

Now to ask aircraft to be armed with a helicopter weapon is under kill and puts the aircraft in harms way.

Only anti-tank aircraft weapon I recall is the Maverick by the UASF which has a 125 lb warhead and can take out bridge pylons too.

It may start as a heli based platform but a precise cheap missile with low cep has many uses. They will end up getting laser guidance eventually and will end up on all platforms including Hawks/htt40 etc...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2017 12:49

has the brimstone which looks impressive in the 3-round rack been used in anger so far?

at 175,000 GPP per round near 300k $$, 2 crore, it is a expensive missile when the Khalid/Zarrar types probably cost that amt each.

to me it seems we should look to adapt (new motor, new seeker) a powered chassis like saaw to this role than run after gori chamri flesh yet again.

we need to evolve a family of chassis x seeker x warhead and derive economy of scale in design, use, manufacture than these bespoke gori chamri weapons again and again which does nothing but provide service manuals and a gora "eggspert" has to fly in to troubleshoot any serious issue

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Dec 2017 14:12

ramana wrote:
JayS wrote:
Nice to hear something about SANT. Are we planning to put it on our fighters as well..?

JayS,

Nag is barely clearing ground trials. The HELINA is to arm the anti tank helicopters. This SANT is same genre.

Now to ask aircraft to be armed with a helicopter weapon is under kill and puts the aircraft in harms way.

Only anti-tank aircraft weapon I recall is the Maverick by the UASF which has a 125 lb warhead and can take out bridge pylons too.

I suppose others have already stated what I would have replied. I had Brimstone in my mind while asking whether we already have a stated plan of integrating ATGM on aircrafts or not.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Dec 2017 18:25

Singha wrote:has the brimstone which looks impressive in the 3-round rack been used in anger so far?

at 175,000 GPP per round near 300k $$, 2 crore, it is a expensive missile when the Khalid/Zarrar types probably cost that amt each.

to me it seems we should look to adapt (new motor, new seeker) a powered chassis like saaw to this role than run after gori chamri flesh yet again.

we need to evolve a family of chassis x seeker x warhead and derive economy of scale in design, use, manufacture than these bespoke gori chamri weapons again and again which does nothing but provide service manuals and a gora "eggspert" has to fly in to troubleshoot any serious issue

RAF in Libya fired Brimstones.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 20 Dec 2017 18:42

JayS, it seems like India had requested MBDA to explore the possibility of integrating Brimstone on Su-30 platform. Possibly went no where due to obvious reasons. IIRC, there were chirps from DRDO about extending the range of Helina to something akin Brimstone-1 for anti-armour operations from aircraft.

IRDW link does mention that there is a possibility of integrating SANT on fast movers as well.

India sheds light on new Air Launched Anti-Tank Missile Development

SANT Missile will have multi-platform launch capability and can be launched from Attack Helicopters, HALE-Class Drones and might also be integrated with Strike aircrafts to provide high-precision guided tactical air-to-ground capabilities to carry out anti-armour roles so that it can be used to take out Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) and Armoured Personnel Vehicles.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Dec 2017 18:45

Wishlist: DRDO should make a air launched Nirbhay mini . It is 1.5 tonne, 1100 range at the moment. A 700kg, mini version with 500-600 KM, same engine would be good.

You could load 5-6 of them on SU-30. Launching at height could give some additional range as well. 600KM is the range around where most of the Chini log nodes will be located. The idea is to carry higher numbers.

Being smaller, they can produced in larger numbers, reducing the cost as well.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Dec 2017 20:55

ramana wrote:Shiv, The Jaguars were armed with a British cluster bomb called BL-755 for use against tanks.

BL-755 was manufactured by OFB and they used to have a product page as well.

As per this -
http://slideplayer.com/slide/7676422/

IAF uses BL-755, a Spanish one called BME-330 in MiG-21, 23, 27 & Jaguar and Belouga on Mirage 2000

BL-755 used by MiG-27 http://sainiksamachar.nic.in/englisharc ... -08/D5.jpg
BL-755 used by Jaguar https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/pho ... id=1301017
http://images.indianexpress.com/2017/09 ... .jpg?w=759
Belouga used by Mirage 2000 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... e.jpg.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2017 07:05

IAF Mirage dropping Belouga - but fake explosion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox9KmY5I4pQ

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 21 Dec 2017 15:06

Saurav Jha - Expect a round of QRSAM trials very soon. This program is weaving its way towards productionization. The pace of all-up testing has increased across the board for @DRDO_India missile development programmes.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/943762406500483072

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Dec 2017 15:53

I hope this time it is with the ground radar and full C3I set.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Dec 2017 19:26

Zynda wrote:JayS, it seems like India had requested MBDA to explore the possibility of integrating Brimstone on Su-30 platform. Possibly went no where due to obvious reasons. IIRC, there were chirps from DRDO about extending the range of Helina to something akin Brimstone-1 for anti-armour operations from aircraft.

IRDW link does mention that there is a possibility of integrating SANT on fast movers as well.

India sheds light on new Air Launched Anti-Tank Missile Development

SANT Missile will have multi-platform launch capability and can be launched from Attack Helicopters, HALE-Class Drones and might also be integrated with Strike aircrafts to provide high-precision guided tactical air-to-ground capabilities to carry out anti-armour roles so that it can be used to take out Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) and Armoured Personnel Vehicles.

When launched from Fighter from higher altitude, Helina itself will have significant boost in range without mods. I think the main challenge would be guidance. If it can be a reliable LOAL, fire and forget weapon at say 15-20km range, it should be rather easy to put it on fighter without much technological efforts.

Not sure what kind of sensor SANT has. If its better than NAG/Helina, even better.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Dec 2017 19:56

SANT is being launched from Mi-35 and is stated to have higher than HELINA range, so its likely a larger missile and from fast aircraft, its range will increase substantially (just like Brimstone).

The issue is to have an all-weather seeker that can reliably discriminate targets at the range and pick them out of clutter.

I suspect SANT has a MMW seeker originally developed as part of the Nag program.

http://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saura ... 48587.html

Satheesh Reddy: On the RF seeker front, we have quite a few developments taking place. We have developed a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker that is being produced by private industry. This MMW seeker is capable of both lock-on-after-launch(LOAL) and lock-on-before-launch(LOBL) configurations.

And

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techno ... 707196.ece

So its been several years since then and I suspect the MMW seeker is fairly mature and is being used for SANT and other programs.

The Hindu

Seeker successfully flight-tested in Nag
Y. Mallikarjun
HYDERABAD, December 12, 2011 02:48 IST
Updated: July 29, 2016 15:25 IST
The mmW seeker was developed by scientists of Research Centre Imarat

In a breakthrough in indigenous seeker technology for missiles, an RF (radio frequency) seeker was successfully flight-tested in anti-tank Nag missile in the Army ranges at Ahmednagar in Rajasthan on Sunday.

While the scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation had so far developed Imaging Infra-red (IIR) seeker, this was the first time that a millimetric Wave (mmW) seeker, having all-weather capability, was tried for a 2,000 metre range in a successful mission.

Chief Controller R& D, (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, Avinash Chander, told The Hindu: “this is a breakthrough for seeker capability in the country.” This would provide solutions for applications in surface-to-air missiles, air-to-air missiles, anti-tank missiles and air-to-surface missiles. It would also provide the technology base for changing to dual-mode seeker in future.

Its all about building blocks:

Propulsion experience - HELINA
Datalinks - HELINA/Astra
Compact FOG - Astra
Fusing - Akash/Astra
Tandem warhead - Nag
Trajectory shaping for top attack - Nag

The key thing of interest now is what will Mi-35 use for long range acquisition for launching SANT.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Dec 2017 02:44

Great News!!!!

India to seek supply of radars, missiles by 2018
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... XJVfJ.html

By Shishir Gupta, 21 Dec 2017

India is all set to take a big stride in exports of arms and equipment with the defence ministry in the process of tying up with Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Myanmar and Armenia for supply of radars, helicopters and missiles, and tank upgradation by 2018. South Block sources confirmed deepening of military ties with these countries with high-level delegations interacting with defence ministry and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) units in Bengaluru this month. For the first time, Saudi Arabia is sending 10 of its nationals for training to become officers at the National Defence Academy (NDA) next year.

The proposed tie-ups assume significance as India is the largest importer of arms in the world but figures nowhere in the list of global arms exporters. Government sources confirmed that two joint committee meetings have already taken place with Riyadh as the latter is interested in a joint venture to manufacture weapons and equipment in Saudi Arabia.

It is understood that the UAE has also shown interest in purchasing DRDO-developed Astra 70-kilometer range air- to-air missile for its Mirage fighters. The beyond visual range missile has been successfully tested by the Indian Air Force on its Su-30 MKI fighter jet and will be soon integrated for test firing on its Mirage 2000 jets. While Myanmar wants India to upgrade its T-72 main battle tanks, which the former had purchased from Ukraine, Jordan is interested in buying the Kamov 226 T multi-utility helicopter to be built under India-Russia collaboration. Jordan is also looking at the possibility of buying other hardware manufactured by the DRDO. On its part, Armenia is interested in purchasing DRDO- manufactured radars for battle-field theatre and long-distance artillery ammunition from India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2017 03:03

Shisihr Gupta English challenged?

The body of the article says Govt wants to export and he writes seeks supply!

the to is wrongly places.

Headline could say 'India seeks to supply....

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 22 Dec 2017 10:49

ramana wrote:Shisihr Gupta English challenged?

The body of the article says Govt wants to export and he writes seeks supply!

the to is wrongly places.

Headline could say 'India seeks to supply....

tells the kind of crowd goes into journalism or the amount of time/review at their disposal. That said, sir spare his poor english. At least he's not traitor like rajat bandit

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Dec 2017 11:55

Karan M wrote:
Its all about building blocks:.

Exactly.

Karan M wrote: The key thing of interest now is what will Mi-35 use for long range acquisition for launching SANT.

How far typically a Fighter radar can see in A2G mode, for good enough quality for giving initial guidance for ATGMs..?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2017 12:18

It all depends on how big the radar is, the power output, the quality of the antenna (gain), the signal processing.

Bars sanitized figures for range against ground targets:

Air to Surface mode:
Range of detection:
- railway bridge: 80. 120 km .;
- a group of tanks: 40..50 km;
- Destroyer: 80. 120 km;
- aircraft carrier: 250 km.

But note, to attack point targets you need proper resolution against ground targets as well. The Bars resolution is anywhere between 5 to 10 meters, or even 20. Not really great for small point targets. 10 mtrs is ok for say tanks and the like. But if you are talking small vehicles probably not. Ideally you'd like great resolution to avoid wasting missiles and picking out targets which can be fed into the weapons system.

The EL/M-2032 will be better than Bars here, but its range is likely substantially lower as well (Jaguar sized nose/power output for instance).

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 22 Dec 2017 18:23

Hemant Rout - #BREAKING: India successfully test fires next-generation Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile (QRSAM) from a defence base off #Odisha coast. The homegrown canister-based high-speed #missile can deceive enemy radars making it difficult to be detected. @NewIndianXpress

https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 7066341376

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Dec 2017 18:26

this entire xRSAM(x=Q, L, M) has become so confusing nowadays