'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Jan 2018 06:03

Anyone who followed this thread from Oct 2016 (when the thread started), it was evident that this deal would not address the squadron shortage anytime in the near future. That would defeat the entire purpose of this deal. This SEF competition is a farce, with zero value to India. The folks on BRF who argued for this, are now surprisingly silent. There were some in particular who insisted that the F-16 (and F-18) was definitely coming

And they made up a lot of conjecture to prove their point. Refer back to this thread and you will see - global supply chain, jet engine technology, jobs for Indians, Dragon Fire, etc. And every point has been soundly trounced.

A lot has happened since Oct 2016, especially with Tejas. And it has been largely positive for the Tejas, with the exception of that fake news article on the bird. Social media and the 24 hour news cycle has largely helped the Tejas cause. The IAF is slowly, but surely, walking up to the idea that SEF will take a LONG time to come to fruition. Time is not a luxury that the IAF has. The IAF has also realized that the Tejas is the *SINGLE* engine bird that is available right now.

Delay in the SEF is also delivering in other areas. The news reports of the revival of the Jaguar re-engine program, another Tejas line investment (in the tune of ~ Rs 1300 crore = $200 million USD), the first step in the confirmed order of the 83 Mk1As, the possible (still need official confirmation) revival of Mk2 development are steps in the right direction. The Super Sukhoi upgrade, the MiG-29 upgrade, the Mirage 2000 (stalled for now) upgrade are also all good developments as well. SEF may still happen, but it will follow all the MoD procedures and take its own sweet time. And at that point, SEF will likely be pointless.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 08 Jan 2018 06:33

Amen!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2018 09:04

Something is cooking in SEF.
Vikram Lall has been appointed F16 Sales V.P.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 08 Jan 2018 17:49

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 415320.cms

The Trump administration is nearing completion of a new "Buy American" plan that calls for US military attaches and diplomats to help drum up billions of dollars more in business overseas for the American weapons industry, going beyond the assistance they currently provide, US officials said.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Jan 2018 03:16

ramana wrote:Something is cooking in SEF.
Vikram Lall has been appointed F16 Sales V.P.

Ramana Sir don't say things like. With our propensity to shoot ourselves in the foot I get depressed.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Jan 2018 06:58

The Father of All Fighters
http://www.indialegallive.com/commercia ... ters-41914

It does not matter whether an air force has a Rafale, an F-16, Sukhois, the Swedish Gripen, the Eurofighter or a Mirage. None of these fighters can even come close to the F-35 whose weapon system can find targets 2,000 km away.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 09 Jan 2018 07:07

Rakesh wrote:The Father of All Fighters
http://www.indialegallive.com/commercia ... ters-41914

It does not matter whether an air force has a Rafale, an F-16, Sukhois, the Swedish Gripen, the Eurofighter or a Mirage. None of these fighters can even come close to the F-35 whose weapon system can find targets 2,000 km away.

vohra ji is fond of writing comedy on TOIlet. Seems to be a rich brat who was employed because of his dad had some big connections with TOI guys. Does not seem to be smart with any political views so is basically harmless

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jan 2018 06:08

India's Air Prowess May Dip by 2025 as Govt Drags feet on Fighter Jet Deals
http://www.news18.com/news/india/indias ... 18443.html

f India purchases around five squadrons of either the American or Swedish single-engine fighter, it may well be on the way to achieving a 42-squadron air force. However, sources at Lockheed Martin suggest that the deal may not go down any time soon as the government continues to drag its feet.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jan 2018 07:48

Rakesh wrote:India's Air Prowess May Dip by 2025 as Govt Drags feet on Fighter Jet Deals
http://www.news18.com/news/india/indias ... 18443.html

f India purchases around five squadrons of either the American or Swedish single-engine fighter, it may well be on the way to achieving a 42-squadron air force. However, sources at Lockheed Martin suggest that the deal may not go down any time soon as the government continues to drag its feet.

Another scare mongering tactic. The IAF will have at least 35 squadrons (or more likely 38 sqdns depending on how many per sqdn are allocated) in 2025 with current acquisitions of LCA (6 sqdn + possibly more), Rafale (2 sqdn + 2 more likely) and Su-30 MKI (13-14 sqdn inducted/under production + 2 more likely) and retirements of all of its MiG-21/27. Plus, its existing "medium" fighters (Jaguar (5-6 sqdn), MiG-29 (3 sqdn) and Mirage-2000 (2-3 sqdn)) are all undergoing MLU. No need for SEF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Jan 2018 07:50

Rakesh wrote:India's Air Prowess May Dip by 2025 as Govt Drags feet on Fighter Jet Deals
http://www.news18.com/news/india/indias ... 18443.html

f India purchases around five squadrons of either the American or Swedish single-engine fighter, it may well be on the way to achieving a 42-squadron air force. However, sources at Lockheed Martin suggest that the deal may not go down any time soon as the government continues to drag its feet.

News 18 aka Anbani Mouth Peace , Sources in Lock Mart is paid news by them , Scare Mongering tactics

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jan 2018 08:34

IMO, MMRCA/SEF/TEF should have been called "600km-800km combat radius" fighter acquisition program since that is what it is really. Below 600km radius LCA Mk.1/A is there and above 800km radius Su-30MKI is there. I don’t see any other unique identifier.

Besides, if it’s really desperate times then more Su-30MKI (higher range) and LCA (lower range) would do the job until some more advance alternate platform comes along many years down the line. Why keep yourself in a starvation mode when there is food in front of you? It may not be 5-star quality (you can save up for once-in-a-while treat) but will at least keep you full

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2018 11:35

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:Something is cooking in SEF.
Vikram Lall has been appointed F16 Sales V.P.
Ramana Sir don't say things like. With our propensity to shoot ourselves in the foot I get depressed.

Right on dot bokwas articles are coming.
They know LCA and MK2 will be good. So now push for F35.

Deejay had predicted this.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 12 Jan 2018 18:18

I think time is coming to rename this thread to LCA MK2 thread.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2018 18:51

maybe we can buy F52's like Norway?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Jan 2018 20:10

A prudent way could be to engage the import lobby in the great Indian Bureaucratic process while keep working on LCA MK2 with full pace.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jan 2018 00:16

^^^ I like that idea!!!

‘America First’ & ‘Make in India’ won’t align perfectly, but co-op will grow: New US envoy
https://theprint.in/2018/01/11/america- ... -us-envoy/

Ambassador Kenneth I. Juster lays out several areas for enhanced Indo-US cooperation, hopes to announce fighter jet and helicopter deals next year.

So "hoping" to announce deal in 2019. This from the new US Ambassador to India.

How long for the factory, once the deal is "hopefully" signed in 2019?
How long for the first F-Solahs to arrive, once the deal is "hopefully" signed in 2019?
Can the IAF wait for that long?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jan 2018 00:21

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/951885999897919488 --> By 2025, the IAF will have in its ORBAT, at the least, 265+ Su-30 MKI (past crashes taken into account) + 60+ Mig-29 + 45+ Mirage 2000 + 125 Jaguar + 100+ Tejas + 36 Rafale i.e 631 plus combat jets. With adequate stocks of PGMs + force multipliers + IADS.

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Jan 2018 04:13

i suppose the Tejas will continue its double digit rate production pa, hopefully a private company can join in and do full scale assemblies and thus a third line ., but even then there will be *some* requirement for a piecemeal single fighter procurement ..

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Jan 2018 04:15

Rakesh wrote:SEF may still happen, but it will follow all the MoD procedures and take its own sweet time. And at that point, SEF will likely be pointless.

i beg to differ sir ! .. just count the numbers upto 10 years .. the IAF will still need more .. its a mess but then !!

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Jan 2018 07:45

kit wrote:i suppose the Tejas will continue its double digit rate production pa, hopefully a private company can join in and do full scale assemblies and thus a third line ., but even then there will be *some* requirement for a piecemeal single fighter procurement ..

Where are the LCA orders beyond current ones (20+20+83)? Given enough orders, additional private assembly lines will come up along with more Tier-1 sub-assembly lines.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jan 2018 09:54

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:SEF may still happen, but it will follow all the MoD procedures and take its own sweet time. And at that point, SEF will likely be pointless.
i beg to differ sir ! .. just count the numbers upto 10 years .. the IAF will still need more .. its a mess but then !!

Before I reply, please do not quote an entire post with just one line. Since you responded to the point I made in my original post (which is bolded), I am removing the rest.

I am not denying the IAF needs more fighters. What I am challenging is this notion that the F-16 or the Gripen brings any value to the nation or to the customer, i.e the IAF. It does not kit. All this talk of creating jobs, tech transfer is nonsense. Opening a screwdrivergiri line - for either aircraft - will not even dent the unemployment rate in India. With the tech transfer - since we are not getting the crown jewels from the radar or engine, what is the tech transfer? Can you tell me?

The only foreign fighter I am in favour of inducting is the Rafale. The IAF already bought 36 birds. It only makes sense to capitalize on that investment and go in for a repeat order of 36 - 44 more birds. It checks off every box that the IAF needs. 80 Rafales + 40 Su-30s (as announced by the Chief on IAF Day 2017) = 120 aircraft. Six short of the original 126 order. The Rafale can also be inducted way quicker than either SEF fighter.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 Jan 2018 05:56

Did Indranil not mention that LCA Mk2 and AMCA are almost signed off.
I am sure the SEF is dead.
We just don't want to say it before we dangle the big GE engine order carrot in front of the yanks.

As Admiral Rakesh says.
Fill that gap with another two squadrons of Rafales.
Go hard on the LCA Mk2 and AMCA front.

If AMCA stutters or is slow progress then compensate with F-18s from the Navy.
Unsure if we are ordering or building F-18s.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Jan 2018 06:06

^^^
Basic rule of thumb for licensed fighter aircraft production is orders must be more than 100 units.

On the other hand indigenous platforms are expected to be in production for far less confirmed orders.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jan 2018 12:02

If AMCA stutters and it will be 10- 15 yrs from now when we will know,for the IN the SH will be an ancient antique outclassed by even new Chin fighters.The best firang buy would be the JSF from yanqui stables instead , other than whatever might emerge from the Russian stables like a maritime SU-50.The Europeans have nothing in their basket or bush except the Rafale-M costing as much as a JSF.

The key point is what are we going to do in the interim 15 years when Chinese J-20 stealth fighters are being tested in Tibet as of now? Can we wait for even a decade before possessing our own stealth fighters? It's why we must seal the FGFA deal asap and have 2 sqd. of the base variant in service by around 2023-2025.The AMCA when it comes a decade later post 2030, is meant to replace our med.sized aircraft like the M2Ks,MIG-29s and Jags.The last type probably being the first to retire as with the upgrades, the M2Ks and 29s are supposed to have added at least 15-20 yrs. of extra service.Jag upgrades for such an old type may allow them to soldier on until 2030.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2018 20:38

Proposal for F-35 to Indian: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625#p2246310

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jan 2018 20:49

So much F-35s not coming

Eventually, LM will drop the F-16 completely and offer the F-35. The very fact that Vivek Lall has offered the F-35 is because the F-16 has met with poor response in the IAF. LM has seen the writing on the wall.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Jan 2018 21:06

Any proposal (worth the paper its printed on) to build F-35's in India or any other country must come from the GOTUS and generally is followed up by a few classified briefings on the capability and industrial participation.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jan 2018 21:08

Could not agree more. That is what will likely happen. The F-16 has met with tepid response in the IAF.

And this is going to take time. And with the quagmire the Trump Administration is currently in, this will take a long time. Today marks the first year of the Trump Administration. Three more years to go....

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jan 2018 21:25

And the best part about this...this gives enough time for Tejas production to ramp up (which is already well on its way).

I remember when this thread started in Oct 2016. The outlook was not that rosy for the Tejas or Donald Trump. How the tables have turned.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2018 21:28

Lall-mullah ke haseen sapne

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 20 Jan 2018 21:43

F 35 offer has been doing rounds for quite some time. Confuses situation on SEF enough to delay any decision and thus help Tejas.

But it should be left at that. No formal interest or presentations to IAF or anybody. F35 shall mean end of any aerospace dreams being built around Tejas or AMCA. Let's recall, F35 has replaced F22 and shall do the same to AMCA, let alone Tejas or Mk2.

India is the Blue Ocean for US fighter sales. When ever we buy, we buy in 100s, more than any other imported airforce in the world. And we don't have a single fighter of US origin.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jan 2018 22:14

They are still hawking the f-16 not f-35, it's just a case of DDMites.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jan 2018 23:16

Abhik, LM can hawk the F-Solah all they want. They will get no where with F-Solah.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Jan 2018 00:56

Read the article again. Vivek Lall is simply hawking the F-16 Block 70, by dangling the carrot of the F-35 even closer to the IAF and MoD's face. And that is nothing new. LM was talking about commonality with the F-35 and the F-16 Block 70 being the 'logical' path to the F-35 even earlier. It's nothing new actually.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Jan 2018 01:48

Kartik wrote:Read the article again. Vivek Lall is simply hawking the F-16 Block 70, by dangling the carrot of the F-35 even closer to the IAF and MoD's face. And that is nothing new. LM was talking about commonality with the F-35 and the F-16 Block 70 being the 'logical' path to the F-35 even earlier. It's nothing new actually.

Might be a very stupid question to ask, but can't we get AN/APG radars for tejas.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Jan 2018 02:29

I believe Northrop Grumman was not invited to participate in the Tejas AESA program. Raytheon was invited but I doubt they could offer anything to negate the cost and schedule advantage enjoyed by Israel or the offset advantage enjoyed by Thales.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2018 03:26

Arjun Not right to ask such questions. Do you think US would offer such gear?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jan 2018 03:48

It is a question of maturity program that needs to kick in for Uttam project. We don't need any radar assistance. Our terrain, avoidance, clutters and operating environment is totally different from American or Russian ones. Israeli ones come close but not close enough. We should not or stupid enough to beg anyone on this. kick few butts if need be to rev up the program.

Engine tech is more important than stealth at this point in time. We have an inherent capability in designing stealth airframes. The focus should be on GTRE and Kaveri maturity program, and not JSF or even AMCA/FGPA. Ignore and focus on Tejas Mk2 along with Kaveri 100kN, 125kN, and a 150kN version in parallel after K10 passes tests in a more funded, re-orged GTRE, and agile plan. It must get energize and nothing else is important in the SEF domain.

Kick all firangs and their lovers' butts

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Jan 2018 04:08

ramana wrote:Arjun Not right to ask such questions. Do you think US would offer such gear?

Sir, the intent was not to support the import of a shiny American stuff, but more to understand pros and cons of it.
Brar warrior and SaiK have provided very good answers from technical and practical PoV. I had few other stuff (e.g., any help that Uttam may get from this) but that would make me an import lover or supporter of indirectly killing our "homegrown" program. That's not the intent.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Jan 2018 04:11

SaiK wrote: Our terrain, avoidance, clutters and operating environment is totally different from American or Russian ones. Israeli ones come close but not close enough.

Thanks sir, and agree with all your points. On a related note, wouldn't Sweeter than honey brothers face this problem, esp with their F16s which require 2 Sukhois to counter?

Or is it that the next best option to them is JF17 followed by Al Burraq and stones