Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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chetak
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2018 16:08

JTull wrote:This kind of personal attack shows what's wrong with this forum. He's expressed his opinion and you've a different opinion. Move on!


It is not a matter of different opinions.

Its an established tradition of how ceremonial moments are recorded for posterity. Unit histories are carefully recorded and documented.

This is how ceremonial photographs are taken in every single unit of the forces as well as the para military forces. They always have been taken like this and the age old established practice continues to this day.

why would anyone comment on the established traditions of the forces?? and to what end??

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 01 Feb 2018 16:34

chetak wrote:
prabhug wrote:Sir I am seeing it as a reminiscent of the colonial past. chetak, i am not saying about caste.I am see the equality and the self respect of human beings.This hierarchical approach may not attract people to do these services.I think these services are becoming more technical we would expect more skilled people to come in.We talk about SDRE in this forum and chetak comment hints me if we realy do mean that. I hear stories how american ground crew takes responsibility in owning the aircraft. I don't see any movement towards such a efficient and transparent approach.
A simple gesture can go a long way.


I would have thought that the idiom "a closed mouth gathers no feet" would have been the best way for you to go, but you seem very keen on tilting at windmills.

What makes you think that an Indian Forces ground crew don't take responsibility for their aircraft??

You know nothing about the camaraderie, the loyalty and the fierce community spirit inherent in any forces unit. A mere chair cannot disrupt it as you so fondly imagine. Neither the SDRE men nor the SDRE officers are that weak of character.

you seem to think that a mere chair is indicative of some deep seated malaise that ONLY you have miraculously been able to decipher and I for one do definitely see your needless comment as anything but innocent, especially when others have pointed out the fallaciousness of your thought process.

What is not transparent for you?? Don't you think that it takes skill to keep these old warhorses flying, day after day??

BTW, I was not "hinting" at anything. I was telling you to your face that you are wrong.

Are you one of those commies who want to see the Indian Armed forces attired in lungi and chappals, wielding lathis so that a truly egalitarian society, all bum chummy can be established to soothe your non colonial mindset?? chewing pan and spitting a red stream in a non colonial fashion, during ceremonial parades??

Didn't the republic day parade or the president's ceremonial mounted bodyguards strike you as a truly colonial ?? Some Army units were maybe raised over two centuries ago. They have proud traditions and age old customs that they still honour. It's not something that you would even begin to understand.

and finally, sorry to disappoint you so badly, but the forces anywhere in the world are deeply hierarchical and that is precisely what makes them tick.

With your mindset, it's no wonder that you and others of your ilk did not join up.

May we know when you passed out of JNU/Jhadavpur Univ/AMU/Jamia millia??

I agree with the whole post except the last line. You showed prabhug a nice mirror and then showed that you are not much different when it came to other institutions.

Our current DM is from JNU.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Feb 2018 16:57

And JNU is the hotbed of anti national sentiment. Nice one Chetak.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Feb 2018 16:58

chetak wrote:
prabhug wrote:Sir I am seeing it as a reminiscent of the colonial past. chetak, i am not saying about caste.I am see the equality and the self respect of human beings.This hierarchical approach may not attract people to do these services.I think these services are becoming more technical we would expect more skilled people to come in.We talk about SDRE in this forum and chetak comment hints me if we realy do mean that. I hear stories how american ground crew takes responsibility in owning the aircraft. I don't see any movement towards such a efficient and transparent approach.
A simple gesture can go a long way.


I would have thought that the idiom "a closed mouth gathers no feet" would have been the best way for you to go, but you seem very keen on tilting at windmills.

What makes you think that an Indian Forces ground crew don't take responsibility for their aircraft??

You know nothing about the camaraderie, the loyalty and the fierce community spirit inherent in any forces unit. A mere chair cannot disrupt it as you so fondly imagine. Neither the SDRE men nor the SDRE officers are that weak of character.

you seem to think that a mere chair is indicative of some deep seated malaise that ONLY you have miraculously been able to decipher and I for one do definitely see your needless comment as anything but innocent, especially when others have pointed out the fallaciousness of your thought process.

What is not transparent for you?? Don't you think that it takes skill to keep these old warhorses flying, day after day??

BTW, I was not "hinting" at anything. I was telling you to your face that you are wrong.

Are you one of those commies who want to see the Indian Armed forces attired in lungi and chappals, wielding lathis so that a truly egalitarian society, all bum chummy can be established to soothe your non colonial mindset?? chewing pan and spitting a red stream in a non colonial fashion, during ceremonial parades??

Didn't the republic day parade or the president's ceremonial mounted bodyguards strike you as a truly colonial ?? Some Army units were maybe raised over two centuries ago. They have proud traditions and age old customs that they still honour. It's not something that you would even begin to understand.

and finally, sorry to disappoint you so badly, but the forces anywhere in the world are deeply hierarchical and that is precisely what makes them tick.

With your mindset, it's no wonder that you and others of your ilk did not join up.

May we know when you passed out of JNU/Jhadavpur Univ/AMU/Jamia millia??


+ 108

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 01 Feb 2018 17:56

chetak wrote:
JTull wrote:This kind of personal attack shows what's wrong with this forum. He's expressed his opinion and you've a different opinion. Move on!


It is not a matter of different opinions.

Its an established tradition of how ceremonial moments are recorded for posterity. Unit histories are carefully recorded and documented.

This is how ceremonial photographs are taken in every single unit of the forces as well as the para military forces. They always have been taken like this and the age old established practice continues to this day.

why would anyone comment on the established traditions of the forces?? and to what end??


So, in your "opinion", if there's as an established tradition and you agree with it, then no one else has a right to question it.

chetak
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2018 21:08

JTull wrote:
chetak wrote:
It is not a matter of different opinions.

Its an established tradition of how ceremonial moments are recorded for posterity. Unit histories are carefully recorded and documented.

This is how ceremonial photographs are taken in every single unit of the forces as well as the para military forces. They always have been taken like this and the age old established practice continues to this day.

why would anyone comment on the established traditions of the forces?? and to what end??


So, in your "opinion", if there's as an established tradition and you agree with it, then no one else has a right to question it.


In my "opinion", anyone who starts out by saying that he is not from the forces has no business to make frivolous comments about them.

Especially, the sly kind that has been made with unwarranted references to "colonial" practices. Such comments are patronizing and offensive.

No armed service in the world is a democracy. Any bleeding heart liberal joker can have his/her own "opinion" on this matter. It doesn't change a damn thing.

Armed services, they are all extremely rigid hierarchies, with an established method of enforcing legal order and discipline and if such appointed authority is crossed, the very same hierarchy is constitutionally empowered to act accordingly and justice, as it were, is visited swiftly and devastatingly on the unfortunate. Many fundamental rights and some constitutional privileges, afforded to civilians as a matter of routine, is legally not available to this group of individuals.

That is the serving Air Chief in the picture and a modicum of decorum is the least that is expected. The continued perseverance of the sticking to the point when others have also suggested that it was unwarranted is indicative of a deeper malaise under the guise of "opinion" etc.

And, that Sir, that is my "opinion".

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2018 21:32

Indranil wrote:
chetak wrote:
I would have thought that the idiom "a closed mouth gathers no feet" would have been the best way for you to go, but you seem very keen on tilting at windmills.

What makes you think that an Indian Forces ground crew don't take responsibility for their aircraft??

You know nothing about the camaraderie, the loyalty and the fierce community spirit inherent in any forces unit. A mere chair cannot disrupt it as you so fondly imagine. Neither the SDRE men nor the SDRE officers are that weak of character.

you seem to think that a mere chair is indicative of some deep seated malaise that ONLY you have miraculously been able to decipher and I for one do definitely see your needless comment as anything but innocent, especially when others have pointed out the fallaciousness of your thought process.

What is not transparent for you?? Don't you think that it takes skill to keep these old warhorses flying, day after day??

BTW, I was not "hinting" at anything. I was telling you to your face that you are wrong.

Are you one of those commies who want to see the Indian Armed forces attired in lungi and chappals, wielding lathis so that a truly egalitarian society, all bum chummy can be established to soothe your non colonial mindset?? chewing pan and spitting a red stream in a non colonial fashion, during ceremonial parades??

Didn't the republic day parade or the president's ceremonial mounted bodyguards strike you as a truly colonial ?? Some Army units were maybe raised over two centuries ago. They have proud traditions and age old customs that they still honour. It's not something that you would even begin to understand.

and finally, sorry to disappoint you so badly, but the forces anywhere in the world are deeply hierarchical and that is precisely what makes them tick.

With your mindset, it's no wonder that you and others of your ilk did not join up.

May we know when you passed out of JNU/Jhadavpur Univ/AMU/Jamia millia??



I agree with the whole post except the last line. You showed prabhug a nice mirror and then showed that you are not much different when it came to other institutions.

Our current DM is from JNU.


Yes, indeed. Much obliged that you have pointed this out.

Our current DM is from JNU and you would be the first to agree that she is very very far removed from the usual JNU "product" available on public view.

It takes a very strong mind to rise above the filth in such publicly funded septic tanks, where pakis and terrorists roam free.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 01 Feb 2018 22:12

Narrating an incident about a different force from a different time. During WW II, an American general (Marshal?? Eisenhower??) refused a podium to address the troops/take a salute as he was 'merely their leader' but not a different class of person and because in a democracy, every human being has the same intrinsic value. I am trying to dig up this entire anecdote but unable to right now..

Point is, that in a democratic society with egalitarian aspirations, such questions will be asked. Making such an observation in itself is neither an 'attack' on the forces nor an attempt to undermine authority.. It has happened before in other countries and its natural that it will happen in ours too. Unfortunately, such questions have been raised in the past in bad faith by commies and communal/casteist elements such as the Sachhar committee therefore the harsh reaction is also understandable.

We will all do well to remember that our most effective generals were not spit and polish English hierarchical types, rather sons of the soil.. Hanut Singh, Sagat Singh, Harbaksh Singh.. the list goes on.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 01 Feb 2018 22:36

This is all completely OT - but after absorbing the equality shequality stuff in the UK I returned to find that in India - a ward boy or orderly expects a type of behaviour from a doctor. They "show respect" and in a particular way and if I try to do equal shequal stuff I embarrass them and cramp their style. There is a certain idea of propriety in India that we cannot borrow from the west. Whether anyone knows it or not there are certain modes of behaviour in India that must be respected. By allowing certain classes to give you "respect" you are also giving "respect" to their way of behaving rather than forcing some alien ideas of equa-shequa

Too much weshtern hawa while looking at Indian images - mainly from "converted Indians". One must absorb and join Indian culture - not force your ideas on them like gora saab teaching the unwashed. I need to find a great article from Lt Gen Panag about this. Will find and post in an appropriate place.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 01 Feb 2018 23:01

True.. Cultural practices everywhere are unique and have evolved over a unique history. There is no 'one true' way.

Having said that, there is a tendency in general society to give respect based on how Western/English one is rather than the actual results achieved. This general tendency can also be observed in the forces from time to time.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby prabhug » 01 Feb 2018 23:18

Thanks for the comments.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Feb 2018 23:22

sudeepj wrote:Narrating an incident about a different force from a different time. During WW II, an American general (Marshal?? Eisenhower??) refused a podium to address the troops/take a salute as he was 'merely their leader' but not a different class of person and because in a democracy, every human being has the same intrinsic value. I am trying to dig up this entire anecdote but unable to right now..

Point is, that in a democratic society with egalitarian aspirations, such questions will be asked. Making such an observation in itself is neither an 'attack' on the forces nor an attempt to undermine authority.. It has happened before in other countries and its natural that it will happen in ours too. Unfortunately, such questions have been raised in the past in bad faith by commies and communal/casteist elements such as the Sachhar committee therefore the harsh reaction is also understandable.

We will all do well to remember that our most effective generals were not spit and polish English hierarchical types, rather sons of the soil.. Hanut Singh, Sagat Singh, Harbaksh Singh.. the list goes on.


Spit and polish is discipline and drill which builds character. All these greats you mentioned yet followed traditions which are hard won by blood. They would would be deeply hurt to see the uninformed discussion here. Not to say some traditions can’t be be changed and they have. but yeah first and foremost point as Chetak says is do have some clue what you are talking about.

One Indian ancient tradition is karma yoga and nishkam karma - earn the right to comment by first doing karma. Learn discipline , curb ego, surrender to guru and don’t give gyan when you have none.

We allow far too much nonsense on BR and this will stop. No more discussion on this. Anybody who violates this will see me coming down heavily.

chetak
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2018 23:41

sudeepj wrote:Narrating an incident about a different force from a different time. During WW II, an American general (Marshal?? Eisenhower??) refused a podium to address the troops/take a salute as he was 'merely their leader' but not a different class of person and because in a democracy, every human being has the same intrinsic value. I am trying to dig up this entire anecdote but unable to right now..

Point is, that in a democratic society with egalitarian aspirations, such questions will be asked. Making such an observation in itself is neither an 'attack' on the forces nor an attempt to undermine authority.. It has happened before in other countries and its natural that it will happen in ours too. Unfortunately, such questions have been raised in the past in bad faith by commies and communal/casteist elements such as the Sachhar committee therefore the harsh reaction is also understandable.

We will all do well to remember that our most effective generals were not spit and polish English hierarchical types, rather sons of the soil.. Hanut Singh, Sagat Singh, Harbaksh Singh.. the list goes on.


All generals, the world over and India being no exception, always are and have to be "hierarchical types" because there is no other type of general. They are a part of the hierarchical system.

Hanut Singh, Sagat Singh, Harbaksh Singh et al were also spit and polish, as hierarchical as they come. Yes, personally they led ascetic lives but spit & polish, age old traditions, deeply embedded core values and rigid discipline was never ever missing from their lives.

Do not mistake spit & polish, age old traditions, deeply embedded core values and rigid discipline as mere pomp and show, meant only for public display. It is an inherent part of life in the forces. Not to be mocked at or dismissed lightly as colonial hangovers.

Egalitarian aspirations are not encouraged in any armed forces, anywhere in the world. Are the chinese or russian armies filled with people who have egalitarian aspirations?? They may surface from time to time even in china or russia but such dolts are either shot or court martialed and kicked out, if they are lucky.

The exercise of command in any armed force is neither democratic nor can it accommodate egalitarian aspirations. If a commander says "fire" and the rest of the paltan with egalitarian aspirations says "Hang on, mate. Lets vote on this because, as per our egalitarian aspirations we each have a say in the matter"

Yes, you are partly right but you did not mention our most beloved one of all: Sam Manekshaw.

He was also the very epitome of an Indian Army Officer, a model that was often imitated but never equaled.

He was all spit & polish, a pucca hangover from the colonial days, traditional to the core, devoted to his men and his men would have unhesitatingly followed him into the very bowels of hell if he has asked them to.

More importantly, his supreme confidence unnerved many a vindictive politician and his due pay and allowances were withheld for no reason, only to be released to him on his deathbed during his final days. No politician attended his funeral.

and yet, they gave the bharat ratna to tax evading, favor seeking, advertisement opportunity hunting "parliamentarian" like amcchi tendulkar who does not even bother to attend parliament.

And there is no doubt that amcchi tendulkar sees himself as a son of the soil.
Last edited by chetak on 01 Feb 2018 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby negi » 01 Feb 2018 23:41

The reverence to traditions when combined with complete understanding of their origin and their relevance to this day makes for a very very compelling argument ; however when people get hung up on traditions without being able to establish a link between them and the land ,people or culture they start sounding akin to folks from certain faith where everything is worthy of being upheld . A classic example is the use of St George's Cross to this day by the IN . There is simply no tradition worthy of being upheld here :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2018 23:58

negi wrote:The reverence to traditions when combined with complete understanding of their origin and their relevance to this day makes for a very very compelling argument ; however when people get hung up on traditions without being able to establish a link between them and the land ,people or culture they start sounding akin to folks from certain faith where everything is worthy of being upheld . A classic example is the use of St George's Cross to this day by the IN . There is simply no tradition worthy of being upheld here :)


It is the INDIAN NAVAL ENSIGN, period.

It's no more the st georges cross because it has been absorbed into our Indian naval traditions and values. We also have fish on fridays too, another RN tradition, care to ask why?? Our messes have only Asian fried rice and never chinese fried rice. :)

only the INDIAN NAVAL ENSIGN flies high with this crest emblazoned on every IN ship

शं नो वरुणः (Sanskrit)

Sham No Varunaḥ (IAST)

May the Lord of the Water be auspicious unto us (English)

Image

and the men are looked after in an inherited and perfectly working RN tradition and this system that was passed down from the RN and has worked wonders for us in man management. AFAIK, this system is not used in our sister services though they may have inherited traditions of their own from the brits.

Don't ever change what is not broke. Each and everyone in the forces has deep linkages to our culture, people and civilization traditions. No one other would ever wear the uniform.
Last edited by chetak on 02 Feb 2018 00:06, edited 1 time in total.

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Feb 2018 00:01

negi wrote:The reverence to traditions when combined with complete understanding of their origin and their relevance to this day makes for a very very compelling argument ; however when people get hung up on traditions without being able to establish a link between them and the land ,people or culture they start sounding akin to folks from certain faith where everything is worthy of being upheld . A classic example is the use of St George's Cross to this day by the IN . There is simply no tradition worthy of being upheld here :)


Negi its Nam, Namak, Nishan. The nishan must always be respected because it is the embodiment of lives laid down for it. Read this and you will understand.

http://defencelover.in/subedar-major-ta ... on-nishan/

But can the nishan be changed to remove something which is alien to us. There are certain insignia of inafntry regts that could be changed but that should also be approached with respect and great humility. It is left to the regt, probably the only democratic process in army and they have decided against it. We sanskritsied a lot of the latin mottos. Ubique is now Sarvatra. So a lot has been done already. Gen Bhagat changed a few things as well in the centre.

Ramana sir and I are working on researching Indian regt history to beyond colonial era ie to the state forces so that we can extend the regt histories back to Rana Sanga, Rana Pratap, Shivaji etc.

Now no more on this gents

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Feb 2018 00:05

chetak wrote:
negi wrote:The reverence to traditions when combined with complete understanding of their origin and their relevance to this day makes for a very very compelling argument ; however when people get hung up on traditions without being able to establish a link between them and the land ,people or culture they start sounding akin to folks from certain faith where everything is worthy of being upheld . A classic example is the use of St George's Cross to this day by the IN . There is simply no tradition worthy of being upheld here :)


It is the INDIAN NAVAL ENSIGN, period.

It's no more the st georges cross because it has been absorbed into our Indian naval traditions and values. We also have fish on fridays too, another RN tradition, care to ask why?? Our messes have only Asian fried rice and never chinese fried rice. :)

only the INDIAN NAVAL ENSIGN flies high with this crest emblazoned on every IN ship

शं नो वरुणः (Sanskrit)

Sham No Varunaḥ (IAST)

May the Lord of the Water be auspicious unto us (English)

Image

and the men are looked after in an inherited and perfectly working RN tradition and this system that was passed down from the RN and it has worked wonders for us. AFAIK, this system is not used in our sister services though they may have inherited traditions of their own from the brits.


Sir you are a naval officer ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 02 Feb 2018 00:08

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
chetak wrote:
It is the INDIAN NAVAL ENSIGN, period.

It's no more the st georges cross because it has been absorbed into our Indian naval traditions and values. We also have fish on fridays too, another RN tradition, care to ask why?? Our messes have only Asian fried rice and never chinese fried rice. :)

only the INDIAN NAVAL ENSIGN flies high with this crest emblazoned on every IN ship

शं नो वरुणः (Sanskrit)

Sham No Varunaḥ (IAST)

May the Lord of the Water be auspicious unto us (English)

Image

and the men are looked after in an inherited and perfectly working RN tradition and this system that was passed down from the RN and it has worked wonders for us. AFAIK, this system is not used in our sister services though they may have inherited traditions of their own from the brits.


Sir you are a naval officer ?


what do you think?? :) Posting, as I am, on the Air force thread!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Feb 2018 00:10

Yes sir you are :-)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Feb 2018 00:13

Pls check Navy thread

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Feb 2018 00:21

When Subedar Major Taught NDA Cadets a Good Lesson About Nishan
By
Raghav Gakhar -
November 21, 2017
0
18305

NDA Cadets from the early to mid eighties will remember the imposing frame of SM Darbara Singh. During the rehearsal for the Passing out Parade in 1985, the cadets were in a particularly rebellious mood. The noise did not die down even when the Nishan (Presidential Colours awarded to NDA) was brought into the QM fort, and this was a serious matter indeed, for the Nishan is held in high esteem by the cadet community.

The insult to the Nishan did not go down well with Subedar Major Darbara Singh. With his measured steps he stepped up to the podium and with a voice heavy with anger and gruff with emotions, he asked the cadets to lend him their ears.
Mules carrying ammunition over a mountain pass during 1962 War.

Subedar Major Darbara Singh “Cadets, I have served in the Indian Army for 23 years. I have seen the 1962 operations, the 1965 and 1971 wars as a combatant. The Nishan that you have not acknowledged today, stands for me and countless others who have taken up the profession of arms and given their youth and lives for the honour of being given an opportunity to salute the Nishan, as the symbol of the supreme sacrifice made by our martyrs.

I will tell you a story that might indicate to you the feelings that we soldiers have for the Nishan. The SM drew a deep breath and continued, In this very academy we have a hut of remembrance,where the names of all the former alumni of this institution who have fallen in action are inscribed on the wall, I have been in this academy for the past three years and I have been able to enter that hut only once.

Because written on the wall is one name, Lt Palta of the 4th Battalion the Sikh regiment.

During the 1962 China War, my Paltan was posted in the Tawang sector. I was deployed right on the border, and my section commander was the same Lt Palta whose name is there on the wall in the hut of remembrance.

On the fateful day of 15 Nov 1962, the Chinese attacked our post and we were told to fight back to the last man, last bullet. Lt Palta was personally leading the fight back. It was a harrowing time, we were outnumbered, out gunned and desperately short of ammunition.

Yet we soldiered on , because Lt Palta did not know any other way.

Sometime during the night. Lt Palta was hit in the face by a mortar, the explosion severed his head from his body and the headless body was thrown on me. The enemy overran the post as soon as the officer was dead and I, 17 years old with 11 months of service, fighting a bloody skirmish with the enemy and out of ammunition, was hiding under the dead body of my section commander.

The blood from Lt Palta’s body soaked my beard and chest and the enemy, thinking that I was dead, did not bother to even take me as a POW. Through the night I lay there, in the tattered remains of my post, freezing in the Himalayan cold.

All my comrades dead, and the dead body of that heroic officer shielding me. It took me three days to wash off the blood from my face, but in my mind, the blood of Lt Palta is still there, warm and caking slowly.

I will carry this blood to my funeral pyre.” The SM’s voice became gruffer with verbalized emotion, “When I entered the hut of remembrance the first time, I saw Lt Palta’s name and picture on the wall.

In an instance I was transported back in time to 1962 and felt his cold stiff body on top of mine and his blood congealing on my face. Till date I haven’t been able to enter the hut again.

” Cadets, its for officers like these that the academy has been given the Nishan. It has been won by the blood of ex NDAofficers and it stands for all that is good and pure in these horrible times; I will not permit you to insult the Nishan and Lt Palta as long as I have breath.”

So saying the SM stepped off the dais and strode out of the QM fort in fragile silence. The silence of the QM fort was shattered only by the echoing word of of command of the parade commander some eight minutes later, ordering the passing out parade to coil its sinuous way out of the QM fort in to the drill square.

The Nishan is nothing but a piece of cloth for those who see it as such, but for Subedar Major Darbara Singh of the Ninth Battalion of the Sikh Regiment of the Indian Army, and countless others like him, it stood for Lt Palta and a cold winter night when a young Lieutenant died trying to protect and lead his men in to battle and to supreme honour.

It stood for a quintessential Indian army officer, who, even when dead, continued to shield a young frightened soldier who was out of ammunition and at the end of his wits.

A breed of officers who gave these grizzled old men the self-esteem and sense of honour, of belonging to a family, of mattering, of esprit-de-corps, and in the end, a way of life. And that, in my opinion is true leadership.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 02 Feb 2018 08:57

Shiv Aroor comes up with a scoop of the decade! :-D

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/02 ... craft.html

Codenamed SWiFT, short for stealth wing flying testbed, the aircraft is a technology demonstrator being designed and built in collaboration with the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a government military laboratory in Bengaluru. While the white model is used as a shaping test platform, the black fabricated metal clone of the SWiFT undergoes wind tunnel testing at IIT-K’s in-house facility. And no, these models aren’t just for show.

Top sources associated with the project have confirmed to Livefist that by the end of this year, a prototype SWiFT will be fitted with a Russian NPO Saturn 36MT turbofan engine (which currently powers the Nirbhay cruise missile) and launched on its first flight during the 2018-19 financial year. It will be the first major step in India’s effort to wield an stealthy unmanned aircraft built to fire precision weapons at designated targets in unfriendly airspace.

In the broadest sense, the Ghatak is intended to be an aircraft launched covertly near or over hostile territory, evading enemy sensors by virtue of its stealth, and destroying identified targets with air-to-ground weapons. In a broader sense, such stealth could also be used to gather electronic intelligence or covertly conduct airborne surveillance. Primarily though, the Ghatak is simply being developed as an unmanned bomber (A temporary working title even identified it as the Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle or IUSAV).

In every conceivable sense, the SWiFT getting airborne will constitute a flight into the unknown — for the research team leading the effort at IIT-K, the clutch of government military laboratories under the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) that ‘handle’ the project, and not least, the Indian Air Force that will be its primary operator.


This is a great step forward in the model that is attempted. So far, the IITs were kept at arms length from weapons development. Now that universities, research funding and markets are brought together, I think this project has a good chance of seeing success.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Feb 2018 10:06

at the institute end they need strong phd candidates and a pipeline of such to drive and continue the work as a inter-dept group in each area. it all depends on the quality of the group doing it. to some extent our univs are lagging inter-disciplinary joint projects as profs hang out with their own dept and students.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby negi » 02 Feb 2018 10:29

LoL ; fish on Fridays is hardly any tradition Indians ate fish long before that ; such comparisons are highly superficial and in fact irelevant . I don’t expect any logical response to St. George’s Cross nonsense for none exists :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 02 Feb 2018 10:33

sudeepj wrote:Shiv Aroor comes up with a scoop of the decade! :-D

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/02 ... craft.html

Codenamed SWiFT, short for stealth wing flying testbed, the aircraft is a technology demonstrator being designed and built in collaboration with the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a government military laboratory in Bengaluru. While the white model is used as a shaping test platform, the black fabricated metal clone of the SWiFT undergoes wind tunnel testing at IIT-K’s in-house facility. And no, these models aren’t just for show.

Top sources associated with the project have confirmed to Livefist that by the end of this year, a prototype SWiFT will be fitted with a Russian NPO Saturn 36MT turbofan engine (which currently powers the Nirbhay cruise missile) and launched on its first flight during the 2018-19 financial year. It will be the first major step in India’s effort to wield an stealthy unmanned aircraft built to fire precision weapons at designated targets in unfriendly airspace.


“One this is certain. We have to build and prove the Ghatak. It is the future. We have started well. And we will get there. Failure is not an option,” Dr. Christopher says.


Godspeed

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 02 Feb 2018 20:10

negi wrote:LoL ; fish on Fridays is hardly any tradition Indians ate fish long before that ; such comparisons are highly superficial and in fact irelevant . I don’t expect any logical response to St. George’s Cross nonsense for none exists :)

I had given a detailed explanation in 2014 and earlier on this same forum, but selective amnesia is common among forum members here just like Suresh Kalmadi's dementia when investigated post CWG scam.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby putnanja » 02 Feb 2018 20:33

Unfortunately, ADE doesn't have a good track record of completing any project. Lakshya was the only one that sucessfully made it to induction.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 02 Feb 2018 22:27

putnanja wrote:Unfortunately, ADE doesn't have a good track record of completing any project. Lakshya was the only one that sucessfully made it to induction.


Unfortunately true. The only thing that is missing here is a private sector partner for this project. Perhaps TASL or Anil Ambanis venture or Brahmos Aerospace should step in here and take the responsibility of productionizing the research work and also putting up some part of the risked money.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2018 23:06

The "St.George's Cross", naval ensign was changed some time ago, as a sop to "decolonisation" by pressure groups.However the IN found that they could not identify it easily esp. in poor light unlike the old ensign.They then realised that there was a practical reason for adopting that design.

Secondly the "Cross" is a symbol long predating Christianity.In Sumerian times in their astronomical
science it represented the mysterious "12th planet " Nibiru, known as the planet of the "crossing", due to its orbit that is once in several thousands of years and
" crosses" our planetary system always bringing some form of cosmic catastrophe.

You find the cross even in ancient Indian temples and mythology.It could represent the sun/swastika.In fact I conceived of a naval ensign based upon the swastika , adding arms to the St.G cross,but the flag is not square but a rectangle and the swastika would be elongated and not a pure swastika.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 03 Feb 2018 01:46

CAN WE STOP THIS DISCUSSION OF HIERARCHY/COLONIAL LINKAGES IN OUR FORCES NOW.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 09 Feb 2018 18:05

IAF officer who leaked info to ISI for sex chats arrested.

The Delhi Police arrested Group Captain Arun Marwaha on Thursday on charges of passing on details of secret IAF documents to Pakistani spy agency ISI.

DCP (special cell) Pramod Khushwah has confirmed the arrest. Marwaha, 51, was allegedly using his smartphone to click pictures of classified documents pertaining to combat exercises at the IAF headquarters and then sending them across via WhatsApp.

The Group Captain had been detained by the Indian Air Force for investigation on January 31 after his activities were found suspicious.

Sources said Marwah had been honey-trapped online by the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence) through two Facebook accounts in mid-December. ISI operatives were masquerading as models through these profiles. After being lured through seductive conversations for a week or so, he was enticed to share information pertaining to IAF exercises.

While police remained tight-lipped, sources confirmed to TOI that Marwaha was produced before the court of Deepak Sehrawat at Patiala House and taken on five days of police remand by the special cell. He is being interrogated at the cell's headquarters in Lodhi Colony. It is also being probed if he had any accomplices.

The cops now aim to identify the Pakistani handlers and gather more details about the shared documents.

An FIR has been filed under sections 3 and 5 of the Officials Secrets Act on the complaint by a senior IAF official. Marwaha's phone has been seized and sent for forensic examination. He has confessed to have had access to many secret documents and plans due to his posting at the air HQs.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 09 Feb 2018 18:13

^^^ WTH?! For just hex chats? Not even an actual romp between the sheets with a honey trap?

This Marwaha idiot was gotten cheap.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 09 Feb 2018 18:48

chola wrote:^^^ WTH?! For just hex chats? Not even an actual romp between the sheets with a honey trap?

This Marwaha idiot was gotten cheap.


:rotfl:

ISI agents must be damn good chatters :D

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 09 Feb 2018 22:18

Tharki uncle.. I think the only solution is to hand out official hardened phones which must be the only phones used by officers and jawans. This will allow tracking of use, stop hacking/phishing of personal phones of high ranking officers and also restrain unauthorized copying such as what was done by tharki uncle.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2018 23:19

Group Captain Arun Marwah

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 10 Feb 2018 00:13

sudeepj wrote:Tharki uncle.. I think the only solution is to hand out official hardened phones which must be the only phones used by officers and jawans. This will allow tracking of use, stop hacking/phishing of personal phones of high ranking officers and also restrain unauthorized copying such as what was done by tharki uncle.



LOL. Tharki uncle. Hilariously on point, Sudeep ji!

They need to add “ISI hexy chat handlers” to the list of things on a tharki uncle’s cellphone.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vasu raya » 10 Feb 2018 07:01

They should have an internal help line to report these things, instead of having counter intel find out ...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 10 Feb 2018 12:25

While everyone love salicious gossip, honeytraps are far more complex.

It may be your wife or sister or daughter's friend asking what you do for a living or son's friend saying F-16 radar better than Tejas and the trapped person blurting out the real range and features to correct the other.

Similarly officers stay away from wife and family and in Open Days at bases or Industry Conferences if a PYT befriends and asks personal information and then says,"I don't believe you're a paratrooper" followed by "When did you last jump?" Followed by "What else happened at the exercise where you jumped?" Followed by "Did Tejas drop LGB?" while pretending to be emotionally distressed ("my husband drinks & beats me") that strongly appeals to people to "rescue" them.

If a PYT on the street screams "help", then 20 boys around would rush to help.

In Engineering Colleges, girls date boys with motorcycles to drive them around and run errands while later marrying an older guy who's settled rather than a struggling batchmate while giving a standard dumping answer,"I didn't see/perceive you in "that" sense". The bike boys are honeytrapped.

I noticed an interesting phenomenon on the streets of Delhi, Bombay, Bangalore, Hyderabad & Chennai or even Cupertino when out for office lunches.

If there is a busy road with cars driving fast, and a guy tries to cross it, the motorists actually accelerate and brake at the last moment while cursing the guy. In some cases, they actually nudge/hit the guy.

If a girl crosses a busy road, the motorist brakes well in advance and stops to ogle the girl. Especially if the girl is a power dressed corporate.

You may observe this phenomenon wherever pedestrians are crossing the street or your own behaviour when you're are driving yourselves and a man, woman or sexy woman suddenly comes in front of you. Especially in roads in front of malls.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 10 Feb 2018 13:12

Come on Tsarkar sir! Human inclination and sophistication of honeytrap aside, when you are taking pictures of classified files that you should not have access to and sending it across, you know what you are doing. He has brought shame to his family, force, and nation.

Others, take your gossip and name calling elsewhere. There is no place for gossip on subjects like this on this forum. Report what is happening and keep your opinions to yourself. Be warned.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 10 Feb 2018 19:48

Indranil wrote:Come on Tsarkar sir! Human inclination and sophistication of honeytrap aside, when you are taking pictures of classified files that you should not have access to and sending it across, you know what you are doing. He has brought shame to his family, force, and nation.

Of course, his actions are treasonous - the service has filed a case under OSA and he himself has completely confessed to it. He should have been wary instead of letting his defences down.

All I was against is the moral policing - it can happen to anyone. Like the motorist who curses a guy who suddenly comes on the road in front of him while ogling if the pedestrian was a woman.

In the corporate world, I know people who've been fired with severe legal action for just speaking to their wives or friends about confidential work they're doing.


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