Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Mar 2018 08:58

Wait, has the 324 Tejas been confirmed besides the DRDO chuef, Christopher?

LCA MKIII

!!! Did I miss something in the past 24 hours?

I hope this is true! I don’t want to crash from this high!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Mar 2018 09:56

Sources added that the plan to acquire Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) under a different programme from the Russians has also been put on the back-burner as the planes are “abhorrently expensive” and that the Defence Minister will be visiting Russia soon to discuss the programme.

Tejas to take off; F-16, Gripen ‘grounded’
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... picks=true

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Mar 2018 09:57

we could buy 36 basic Pakfa like the chinese have purchased 36 Su35 and 'study' it properly ...whatever money and efforts IAF wanted to spend bringing the pakfa upto their liking is best expended on the AMCA.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Mar 2018 10:07

^^^ Wow! Nirmala is clearing the decks for the Tejas. I’m a believer this time. Very good!

Buy a few off the shelf for anything we might need and then study it. Focus of resources must be on the Tejas first and the AMCA later.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Mar 2018 10:13

Singha wrote:Tejas to take off; F-16, Gripen ‘grounded’
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... picks=true

“Tejas will be part of the Air Force. We are making provisions for Tejas Mark 2. They will be part of Air Force’s single-engine fighter jet requirement,” Sitharaman said at a select media briefing, adding that the government will throw its entire weight in developing variants of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

I think I hear crickets from BRF's import lobby. Don't worry guys, the shock will wear off

Why do these folks *NEVER* celebrate milestones in the Tejas program? Not a peep from a single one of them on the recent news of the 201 Tejas Mk2 variants or the Tejas hot refuelling or SP "first" flights. Not a single sound. F-16 and F-18 is all they talk about.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Mar 2018 10:31

I think its time for the import lobby to sit in the whine thread. We have spent a lot of time there.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Mar 2018 10:41

Rakesh wrote: Why do these folks *NEVER* celebrate milestones in the Tejas program? Not a peep from a single one of them on the recent news of the 201 Tejas Mk2 variants or the Tejas hot refuelling or SP "first" flights. Not a single sound. F-16 and F-18 is all they talk about.

Admiral, I think about the F-16 and F-18 too but only if it was a choice between more Russkie stuff (MiG-29/35) or Western gear. But who the hell is unhappy when the Tejas is finally approve for real? I don’t think there are any besides our local Natasha connoisseur.

No need to go witchhunting, Saar!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Mar 2018 10:44

chola wrote:Admiral, I think about the F-16 and F-18 too but only if it was a choice between more Russkie stuff (MiG-29/35) or Western gear. But who the hell is unhappy when the Tejas is finally approve for real? I don’t think there are any besides our local Natasha connoisseur.

No need to go witchhunting, Saar!

Saar, I am happy that you are celebrating. Because we had a robust discussion on the F-16 in the Single Engine thread. But at least you celebrate India's achievements. A few in here only criticize the program and did not even want the Mk2 to come.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Mar 2018 10:53

^^^ Yes, the F-16, our private sector and screwdrivergiri (western vs russki.) I enjoyed it — until I got banned for being too robust. LoL

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 05 Mar 2018 11:05

Rakesh wrote:
Singha wrote:Tejas to take off; F-16, Gripen ‘grounded’
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... picks=true

“Tejas will be part of the Air Force. We are making provisions for Tejas Mark 2. They will be part of Air Force’s single-engine fighter jet requirement,” Sitharaman said at a select media briefing, adding that the government will throw its entire weight in developing variants of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.
I think I hear crickets from BRF's import lobby. Don't worry guys, the shock will wear off

Why do these folks *NEVER* celebrate milestones in the Tejas program? Not a peep from a single one of them on the recent news of the 201 Tejas Mk2 variants or the Tejas hot refuelling or SP "first" flights. Not a single sound. F-16 and F-18 is all they talk about.

Admiral you are rubbing salt to wounds of naysayers. I can't say I don't get satisfaction out of it.

Though jingos don't get too many such opportunities, I would suggest, lets tone it down a bit. Let not spoil joy of Tejas spreading its Tej in every direction. Let it be a pure joy.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 05 Mar 2018 11:09

chola wrote:Wait, has the 324 Tejas been confirmed besides the DRDO chuef, Christopher?

LCA MKIII !!! Did I miss something in the past 24 hours?

I hope this is true! I don’t want to crash from this high!

Confirmed by RM, DRDO Chief and IAF Chief. Its doesn't get any more official. As such Indranil had given indications of LCA Mk2's approval quite a bit ahead of time. Also Tejas FB admin verified the same at that time. So we knew it was always coming.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Mar 2018 11:17

JayS wrote:Admiral you are rubbing salt to wounds of naysayers. I can't say I don't get satisfaction out of it. Though jingos don't get too many such opportunities, I would suggest, lets tone it down a bit. Let not spoil joy of Tejas spreading its Tej in every direction. Let it be a pure joy.

Saar, you are correct. I do need to tone it down, because I do not want to digress threads. No more from me. Sorry.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Mar 2018 11:21

JayS wrote:
chola wrote:Wait, has the 324 Tejas been confirmed besides the DRDO chuef, Christopher?

LCA MKIII !!! Did I miss something in the past 24 hours?

I hope this is true! I don’t want to crash from this high!
Confirmed by RM, DRDO Chief and IAF Chief. Its doesn't get any more official. As such Indranil had given indications of LCA Mk2's approval quite a bit ahead of time. Also Tejas FB admin verified the same at that time. So we knew it was always coming.

Yes, Singha ji’s link has fully convinced me!

When Defense Minister clears aside the firangi stuff and tells us that the GOI is throwing its entire weight behind the Tejas, it brings goosebumps.

“Tejas will be part of the Air Force. We are making provisions for Tejas Mark 2. They will be part of Air Force’s single-engine fighter jet requirement,” Sitharaman said at a select media briefing, adding that the government will throw its entire weight in developing variants of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

. . .

Given that the Air Force, facing a depletion in its squadron strength, is in dire need of fighter jets, Sitharaman said the government is “actively working with the Air Force to give them more aircraft.”

She also said the government is looking at giving a massive push to HAL to scale up the production of Tejas not just for the Air Force and the Navy but also to export it to countries that are interested in acquiring it.

. . .

“We want them to do it faster and increase their capacity. We are talking with HAL and seeing how Tejas can be scaled up under ‘Make In India’.”

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 05 Mar 2018 13:00

The DM said

They will be part of Air Force’s single-engine fighter jet requirement

I wonder what other parts are there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Mar 2018 17:03

"Shock and OW !!!" NS hs very carefully worded her statement."Tejas will be the IAF's single engined fighter..."In other words,to the friang OEMs,"thank you very much for your excellent audition test boys,but we've selected our desi filly!"

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 05 Mar 2018 17:48

I think hon RM's stance and the large order for Tejas Mk,1/2 shows the following:
1. Different planes for different roles - a big part of the LCA's delay was in trying to make everyone happy, and this was pushed both internally as a well-meaning but poorly thought out agenda, as well as by vested interests who knew that a one-size-fits-all solution was unviable and doomed to fail. Now realism has set in and of course we have a much better understanding of what can and cannot be accomplished by the Tejas (as well as by other SEFs, ergo the opening up of competition to multiple engines).
2. Dealing with the Tejas as a given. This is a strong message to the IAF - Tejas is going to be fielded in large numbers for many reasons, including for strategic independence, technology growth and economics; now IAF please figure out what else is needed for a strong defence/offence capability and let's talk.

Often, a sub-optimal decision which is taken is much better than hoping for an ideal solution which pleases all and not taking a decision.

prat.patel · Post by **prat.patel** » 05 Mar 2018 19:39

Some time back one of the senior members had remarked that NS is probably the best peace time RM we have ever had.
I think now - with her managing to have all the decks cleared for Tejas - she can be atoned as such!!

Kudos to DRDO as well as IAF chiefs to get the path set! This is indeed a momentous moment!

Jai Hind!!!

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 05 Mar 2018 19:56

TSP acquiring JF-17 in 100 numbers could be a factor in changing IAF minds on the need to induct a cheaper MII fighter in numbers.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Mar 2018 20:28

This is the best solution we jingos had been asking for decades. A big kudos to MP, NS, DRDO, for bringing things to where they are today. HAL has its job cut out for next 20-30 years. No time for them to rest on laurels.
I wonder what would dr kota or the initial test pilot would be feeling when even I get goosebumps after reading read this news for last 3 days again and again. If any journo is still lurking, it would be great to have the interviews of the old timers who toiled and gave their lives when everything and everyone was against them.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Mar 2018 20:35

Firstly, congratulations to team Tejas (and that includes many Rakshaks who have stood by domestic Aircraft for long and built-up the core support base) to have reached a stage where the Mk2 thread is moving faster than the Mk1 thread.

I am elated that there is possible 201 aircraft order for Tejas Mk2 from IAF. However, I remember me and some other gent/s posting couple of years ago that we will definitely see more than 200 Tejas in service. How and when will they come shall be laid out later.

Let me go out further - Even this number is not the final tally. In all probability we will see around 500+ Tejas aircraft (variants) enter IAF service over the aircraft lifetime. It is how the backbone forms. Also, the Su 30 or Rafale can never be this backbone.

Before I do the Lungi Dance, I would love to see the ASQRs for the Mk2 and some MoD official acceptance of this order. Till then I will wait. 2019 June will most likely have a new Defense Minister. Lets see he/she holds onto these policies. So far every change of DeMin has changed policies.

NS is a good DM but the DM's mettle will only be tested in a war and not just by procurement. In my books Y B Chavan and old George remain higher.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Mar 2018 20:43

A Deshmukh wrote:TSP acquiring JF-17 in 100 numbers could be a factor in changing IAF minds on the need to induct a cheaper MII fighter in numbers.

Why the need to bring external validation. The IAF for the last at least 10 years has been talking about owning IP of the platform and developing domestic capacity.

So why not accept Tejas numbers as just a reflection of that attitude. Along with the fact that the numbers required by IAF to preserve it fighting ability will require Tejas to be built in huge quantities.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Mar 2018 20:43

Good post deejay!

Ramana-ji had asked to start a thread on IAF roles and responsibilities. I was thinking you should start this because no one understands the issue better than you. See his post below (reproduced from the MRCA thread)....

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Deejay and Aviation minded mods,

We need a thread to understand and discuss IAF roles and responsibilities. Similar to the tactics thread.

We can then make sense of IAF quest for squadrons.

srin · Post by **srin** » 05 Mar 2018 20:56

Rakesh wrote:Good post deejay!

Ramana-ji had asked to start a thread on IAF roles and responsibilities. I was thinking you should start this because no one understands the issue better than you. See his post below (reproduced from the MRCA thread)....

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Deejay and Aviation minded mods,

We need a thread to understand and discuss IAF roles and responsibilities. Similar to the tactics thread.

We can then make sense of IAF quest for squadrons.

Saar, how many IAF threads are we going to have ? There is the Indian Air Force News and Discussion thread and then there is the Military Aviation thread (now relegated to second page) ...

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Mar 2018 20:57

Rakesh wrote:Good post deejay!

Ramana-ji had asked to start a thread on IAF roles and responsibilities. I was thinking you should start this because no one understands the issue better than you. See his post below (reproduced from the MRCA thread)....

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Deejay and Aviation minded mods,

We need a thread to understand and discuss IAF roles and responsibilities. Similar to the tactics thread.

We can then make sense of IAF quest for squadrons.

Admiral, I was hoping to reply to this. Was trying to find where it was posted. Since it is here, let me answer here.

Unlike the IA, IAF does not let out its knowledge to young guns. By the time one really understands the entire Ops plan of the IAF, one would at least be an Air Cmde from the fighter branch. I was no where there and I am from helicopters. It would be incorrect for me to then act like an SME. Akshay Sir has set high standards in the IA Tactics thread. Whatever we do let us not let those standards down.

A lot of what IAF uses as tactics is classified or I at least do not see open source literature of the IAF on this. Maybe no one taken the trouble and written about it.

We can look at Formations like Command, Wing, Squadron, Unit, Flight etc and also perhaps talk of tactics at Sqn level with 1v1, 2v1 etc and share open source material but anything deeper, the best resource the forum has is Abhibhushan Sir and not me. If he has time, we are in for the learning worth a lifetime.

Finally, presently I am in an inverse time warp where the distance travelled does not increase but the time vanishes into next day. Lucky 02 hrs break today. I do use my phone to keep up with the Tejas and Terroristan threads. So if you are keen on the thread, do start and I will chip in as time unwraps.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Mar 2018 22:14

Ok. I will start the thread and name it IAF Roles & Responsibilities and Doctrine

I will post all the high level documents that they have released. Lets study the subject systematically from top down. Looking at flights, squadrons etc is bottoms up approach.

Abhibhushan saar will guide us. Maybe this will educate some of the defence reporters.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 05 Mar 2018 22:20

Why Mk2 needs a bigger/taller vertical tail stabilizer? Because of increased length and weight or something to do with aerodynamics/drag/stability?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 05 Mar 2018 22:25

Even to maintain 324 LCA (16 SQ), one would need additional planes (unless the SQ number are less and the reserves built in) -attritional loses, some planes will be flogged more (mainly the two seaters) reacing end of life sooner than others, crashes, other write off...at least 20% more, that is additional 60 planes at least. I have a feeling, with indigenous solution (and less costly), we may go to 55 -65 SQ AF (for two front war). Half of that will be LCA and derivatives - some 600 planes

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Mar 2018 22:42

Katare wrote:Why Mk2 needs a bigger/taller vertical tail stabilizer? Because of increased length and weight or something to do with aerodynamics/drag/stability?

First leading to latter.
You answered it yourself.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 06 Mar 2018 00:05

Thx Ramana!

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 06 Mar 2018 01:23

With the additional 201 aircrafts on order books(sooner or later there will be confirmed orders) there should no longer be articles about falling squadron strengths. we should easily reach 38-40 squadrons.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Mar 2018 01:31

JayS wrote: Confirmed by RM, DRDO Chief and IAF Chief. Its doesn't get any more official. As such Indranil had given indications of LCA Mk2's approval quite a bit ahead of time. Also Tejas FB admin verified the same at that time. So we knew it was always coming.

Indeed, it is to Indranil's credit. He was the first to confirm that the Tejas Mk2 was on. Before that Dileep sir had indicated that the Mk2 was going nowhere. To me it was a no-brainer to go with the Mk2. the Mk1A was a filler till the Mk2 entered service.

What surprised me is how many on BRF seemed to think that the Mk2 didn't make much sense and how we needed to focus on the AMCA instead. The AMCA is quite far away, even after the TD build contract is signed, whereas the Mk2 being an iterative improvement on the Mk1A was the natural evolutionary progression and it gave the opportunity to incorporate all the learnings of the program that couldn't be done because the Tejas's dimensions and outer mould line was pretty much fixed 2 decades ago.

Nirmala Sitharaman and Ajit Doval have managed to look beyond the BS reasons that the import lobby have been offering as to why an import of a foreign single engine jet was the way to go. A lot of credit must go to the Def Min for this bold decision and also to the IAF for having supported this - as ACM Dhanoa had indicated many months ago that the IAF would go in for the Mk2.

I agree that one mustn't gloat. There is a lot of work to be done on the ground for this vision to be a reality. And one thing now- HAL, ADA and DRDO can no longer give any excuses about size of the order. The order size is now more than enough to justify private sector involvement in a big way. Time now to deliver. If they don't, they'd have let down the Defence Minister, the IAF and the nation. All eyes will be on them.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Mar 2018 02:21

OT but someone really need to start a thread on how to fight a two front war with China ( pak doesn't count..anyway after a few years) ..

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 06 Mar 2018 05:39

kit wrote:OT but someone really need to start a thread on how to fight a two front war with China ( pak doesn't count..anyway after a few years) ..

I believe there already is.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2018 05:39

Singha wrote:we could buy 36 basic Pakfa like the chinese have purchased 36 Su35 and 'study' it properly ...whatever money and efforts IAF wanted to spend bringing the pakfa upto their liking is best expended on the AMCA.

India is part of design group of PakFA.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Mar 2018 08:19

Indranil wrote:Great day!

Vivek K wrote:BRADMINS please add Lungi dance emoticon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can feel your happiness. You have fought tirelessly and have many scars and lash marks to show for it. Yes, we need a lungi icon!

Kudos to you IR.... Your inputs have kept the thread and hopes alive through dark days.

Of course, I still have a whine....

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 06 Mar 2018 13:57

Japan's Scraps Domestic Development of 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Jet
https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/japans- ... ghter-jet/

Has F-35 production cancelled a domestic industrial product ?
A lesson to learn here.

American F-16s killed the Lavi
American F35 may have killed this too.

However unlike Israel and Japan we are not that close to Amreeka.
We must have more domestic products and more control of our destiny.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Mar 2018 14:10

deleted

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Mar 2018 14:11

Khalsa wrote:
Japan's Scraps Domestic Development of 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Jet
https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/japans- ... ghter-jet/

Has F-35 production cancelled a domestic industrial product
A lesson to learn here.

American F-16s killed the Lavi
American F35 may have killed this too.

However unlike Israel and Japan we are not that close to Amreeka.
We must have more domestic products and more control of our destiny.

Expense and relatively cheaper F35 ..maybe they got some assurances on F22 as well ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Mar 2018 14:47

they should have continued on...while purchasing the f35b for their carriers.
buying US stuff generation after generation...despite having so much domestic tech.

i expect Soko to push on and do it, they do not give up so easily.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Mar 2018 18:27

Singha wrote:they should have continued on...while purchasing the f35b for their carriers.
buying US stuff generation after generation...despite having so much domestic tech.

i expect Soko to push on and do it, they do not give up so easily.

The US provides a nuclear security umbrella for Japan.. there is a definite give and take in that relationship.. Japan is not that free to make decisions unless they decide to strike out on their own with their own nukes