Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

[shiv]

I think there is too much ignorance about what happened at Doklam. Apart from odd patrols India has stayed firmly out of Doklam. Sat images do not show any Indian tracks. Satellite images show that the Chinese had been stomping around the plateau for many years - but last year they suddenly decided to extend a pukka road in a direction that would take them into Indian territory. If you look carefully at the topography you can see that. The idea that they would not enter Indian territory but would stay in Bhutan is difficult to believe given that the road can only have entered India. Indian troops then crossed over into the Bhutan side (just a few meters away) and stopped the road building.

And yes - while the Chinese have now put up permanent positions in Doklam they are going no further with the road and have actually tried to build up defensive positions in case India (or Bhutan ) attacks - with trenches and all.

We never went to protect Bhutan. We were protecting our interests. If we imagine that we tried to protect Bhutan - that is bullshit because satellite images show clear Chinese tracks for a decade. We knew they were coming and going into Bhuta's Doklam for a decade or more. We were seeing the Chinese just meters away - but in Bhutan. The Chinese were stopped only when the umbrella they were swinging came too close to the tip of our nose. Despite trespassin into Bhutan Chinese tracks invariably stopped short of the Indian border. Both India and the Chinese knew damn well exactly where the border was.

So the Chinese now have a permanent presence in Doklam where they were previously only part-time visitors? Good. Let them experience the harsh winters and high altitude sickness with no hope of any low altitude evacuation for 100s of Km. That tells me where the Communist Party cadre guiding the army will be staying. This is a fuking border with a hostile China nearby. Expecting that they will never have soldiers or posts there or shedding tears if they do is one of the most stupid things I have heard. Howling "Ohhh the Chinese are there now. Ammmaaaaa!" is completely unnecessary and idiotic. No one seems to recall that Indian soldiers have sat there 24x7 for years waiting for the Chinese to come. They finally came. So what? Were we hoping that they would not come? Is that idiotic or is that idiotic? Come off this caterwauling folks. Relations with China won't be a cake walk and howling and observing Indian version of Muharram by whipping ourselves every time something happens is pointless.

Pls see explanatory video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y15iiyIbIus

[pankajs]

Old habits die hard. One must make allowance ..

[shiv]

Video - current positions in Doklam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y15iiyIbIus

[VinodTK]

Video - current positions in Doklam

As usual a very good vidio Shiv

[TKiran]

dr subhash kapila
dr subhash kapila
@drsubhashkapila
·

China today fixated on two enemies namely India & United States. hile China dare not attack United States, it is India that China will be soon tempted to attck India in a limited war--short ad swift. BEWARE

[nam]

China can wish for a short & limited war.

What if India decide to make it a longer and larger war?

[nam]

And yes - while the Chinese have now put up permanent positions in Doklam they are going no further with the road and have actually tried to build up defensive positions in case India (or Bhutan ) attacks - with trenches and all.

This is something everyone needs to take notice.

An "invading army" does not build trenches on it's side!

[SSridhar]

India-China bilateral trade hits historic high of $84.44 billion in 2017 - PTI

The India-China bilateral trade reached $84.44 billion last year, an historic high notwithstanding bilateral tensions over a host of issues including the Doklam standoff.

A rare novelty of the bilateral trade otherwise dominated by the Chinese exports was about 40 per cent increase of Indian exports to China in 2017 totalling to $16.34 billion, data of the Chinese General Administration of Customs accessed by PTI here [Beijing] showed.

The bilateral trade in 2017 rose by 18.63 per cent year-on-year to reach $84.44 billion. It is regarded as a landmark as the volume of bilateral trade for the first time touched $80 billion, well above the $71.18 billion registered last year.

The trade touched historic high despite bilateral tensions over a number of issues including the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, China blocking India's efforts to bring about a UN ban on Jaish-e-Mohammad leader Masood Azhar, Beijing blocking India's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) as well as the longest military standoff at Doklam lasting 73 days.

The bilateral trade stagnated around $70 billion for several years despite the leaders of both the countries setting $100 billion as target for 2015.

Though it is still about $20 billion short, officials on both sides expect trade and Chinese investments in India to pick up further this year as both the governments are trying to scale down tensions and step-up the normalisation process.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to visit China in June this year to take part in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) summit in Qingdao. Reciprocal visits by Chinese leaders too were expected to take place this year.

There were also expectations that the new commerce minister of China to be named later this week in government reshuffle was expected to visit India in the coming weeks for talks to improve bilateral trade.

While the bilateral trade reached a new landmark, the trade deficit too continues to remain high at $51.75 billion - registering a growth of 8.55 per cent year-on-year in 2017.

According to India's trade figures, the deficit had crossed $52 billion last year. India has been pressing China to open the IT and Pharmaceutical sectors for Indian firms to reduce the massive trade deficit.

As per the Chinese trade data, India's exports to China increased by 39.11 per cent year-on-year to $16.34 billion last year. India's imports from China increased by 14.59 per cent to $68.10 billion.

India has emerged as the seventh largest export destination for Chinese products, and the 24th largest exporter to China.

Significantly, diamonds along with copper, iron ore, organic chemicals and cotton yarn contributed to the increase Indian exports to China.

India's exports of diamonds grew 4.93 per cent totalling to $2.59 billion. India was the second largest exporter of diamonds to China with a market share of 33.06 per cent after South Africa.

Also, Indian exports of copper registered a significant increase of 115.78 per cent to reach $2.15 billion.

India's cotton including yarn and woven fabric exports to China showed an increase of 1.86 per cent to reach $1.30 billion. India was the second largest exporter of cotton to China with 15.04 per cent market share last year.

India's exports of Zinc to China showed a sharp increase of 802 per cent to reach $240 million.

China's exports on the other hand were dominated by electrical machinery and equipment registering an increase of 28.23 percent to $21.77 billion.

India was the largest destination for China's fertilizers exports registering 16.98 per cent of its total fertilizers worth $1.03 billion to India.

India was also the largest export destination for Chinese Antibiotics - with exports worth $783 million taking place in 2017.

Chinse exports were also led by organic chemicals, worth $6.56 billion in 2017.

[chola]

And yes - while the Chinese have now put up permanent positions in Doklam they are going no further with the road and have actually tried to build up defensive positions in case India (or Bhutan ) attacks - with trenches and all.

This is something everyone needs to take notice.

An "invading army" does not build trenches on it's side!

We need to STOP making Cheen out to be this TFTA warrior nation like the Germans.

Cheen is even more of a Short Rice Eating race than we are. They have not fought a hot war for decades and we spend our time worrying about an attack.

In fact we should welcome an attack (if not simply attack them directly.) Not only do we hold all advantages in numbers and quality along the entire border, the PLA have not shown any ability to fight in the recent past including having a whole battalion bugger off from a ragtag group of rebels in South Sudan.

[rsingh]

And yes - while the Chinese have now put up permanent positions in Doklam they are going no further with the road and have actually tried to build up defensive positions in case India (or Bhutan ) attacks - with trenches and all.

This is something everyone needs to take notice.

An "invading army" does not build trenches on it's side!

Not all the quotes are quotable. Have you heard about trench warfare betwen allied forces and Germans at Ypers?

[nam]

This is something everyone needs to take notice.

An "invading army" does not build trenches on it's side!

Not all the quotes are quotable. Have you heard about trench warfare betwen allied forces and Germans at Ypers?

You applying WW1 warfare to 21 century?

If the Chinese intend to attack, they will not be sitting in the trenches. If we make an assumption that these trenches are part of some sort of grand plan, we will not attack them head off. Will just cut them off through North Sikkim.

Chinis are welcome to apply WW1 style trench warfare, we will apply maneuver warfare.

[Hari Seldon]

Jared Genser Verified account @JaredGenser 1h1 hour ago

#China paid hundreds of students $20 each to line streets of DC and wave Chinese flags during #Xi State Visit. #PaidNationalism

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chi ... ist-party/

[chola]

We should have attacked them at Doklam when those SOBs gave us every reason to annihilate them. I said this over and over again.

At the start of Doklam, they only had THREE brigades to our 10 Divisions. And only EIGHT fighters in Tibet.

Now they are building up and they are building up on disputed territory that Bhutan could do nothing about and which we would do nothing about.

We still have overwhelming advantages but it will be harder now. War at the time of Doka La would have been a slam dunk. It would have pit around 230,000 jawans in 10 divisions against 21,000 chinis in three brigades with negligible PLAAF air support. It was a missed opportunity.

We not only lost the chance at an epic re-ordering of Asia with a war but we left Bhutan to dry. They will eventually turn because of this.

https://theprint.in/opinion/china-dokla ... 39851/amp/

With India having been taught a lesson, and Chinese control of Tibet secure, by 2017 the Chinese had only three brigades left.

...
China appears to have quadrupled its permanently based fighters from 8 to 32 at four airbases.
...

When India has 10 divisions in Eastern Command, equal to the pre-1962 War division count, the addition of an extra brigade in Tibet makes no difference. What it signifies is that China will not vacate Doklam, now absorbed as part of China’s salami-slicing strategy.

...

China’s real point in its buildup is to pull Bhutan away from India by saying “India cannot protect you, only we can”. Intelligence suggests the Bhutanese have understood the point. Any changes in Bhutan’s geopolitical alignment will come slowly, but they will come

[yensoy]

The Chinese Road through Bhutan now comes to around 17 Meters away from Indian posts, we have heavily upgraded our infra and so have they. The Chinese now definitely have built lots of stuff in Bhutan. They seem to have occupied 20 Sq Km of Bhutan,

Question is a) How do we confront them when Bhutan itself does not seem to want to take them. So far there is no road south to the Torsa Chu.

The Chinese gambit is very clear.

1. Occupy some random part of Bhutan, come face to face with India.
2. Let Indian and Western media go apeshit and make a big deal about Bhutan losing land & honour to China.
3. Convey through backchannel to Bhutan that they would like to settle the border; however with the caveat that they establish relations with China directly.
4. Once relations are established, Bhutan is out of Indian "protection" or orbit; shock & awe Bhutanese royalty/administration the Chinese way - hospitality, trips, money etc.

End game - add Bhutan into the string of pearls.

Cost - a little low-risk belligerence, giving up a frozen plateau that never belonged to you, a couple of hundred million dollars of "aid"

Indeed a great plan, which is why we need to keep a lid on our emotions, and remind Bhutan gently that their "Gross National Happiness" will soon become "Gross National Misery" if they try messing around with status quo.

[Singha]

the difference is sinic proxies like north korea and TSP are heavily armed, with massive military and nuclear weapons.

SAARC if ever they were dharmically inclined are lightly armed flyweights in terms of mil/economy/clout/population....

the concept of soft peaceful buffer state went out of window the moment cheen made inroads into nepal....that warning bell rang 20 years ago!!

we continued to bury heads in sand and believed bhutan would be left along, but the hungry dragon is always looking to make inroads....

we need to have a soko/japan type military treaty in place and indian divisions based in bhutan....this would both secure the flanks of Tawang and threaten then entire chumbi valley and impose a cost on china

it is still not too late but we must act on those lines now

bhutan must be a protectorate of india if it has to survive in our orbit

[Singha]

^^ such a treaty negotiated in private but suddenly signed in thimphu would also be a resounding slap on the dragons face

bhutan are a good people, good country. but the clash between the tiger and dragon has reached their door and they can no longer live in isolation....

[SSridhar]

U.S., China battle it out for dominance in technology - Cecilia Kang, Alan Rappeport NYTimes

As the U.S. and China look to protect their national security needs and economic interests, the fight between the two financial superpowers is increasingly focused on a single area: technology.

The clash erupted in public on Tuesday after the U.S. government, citing national security concerns, called for a full investigation into a hostile bid to buy the American chip stalwart Qualcomm — a review that is often a death knell for a corporate deal.

The proposed acquisition by the Singapore-based Broadcom would have been the largest deal in technology history. But a government panel said the takeover could weaken Qualcomm and give its Chinese rivals an advantage. “China would likely compete robustly to fill any void left by Qualcomm as a result of this hostile takeover,” a U.S. Treasury official wrote in a letter calling for a review of the deal.

The fight over technology is redefining the rules of engagement in an era when national security and economic power are closely intertwined.

Ambitions under Xi

China, under President Xi Jinping, has launched an ambitious plan to dominate mobile technology, supercomputers, artificial intelligence and other cutting-edge industries. Beijing wants to build its own technology champions and is encouraging companies to acquire the engineering, expertise and intellectual property from big rivals in the United States and elsewhere.

The aggressive push has set off alarms in Washington.

The secretive panel that is reviewing the Qualcomm deal, the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, or CFIUS, has taken on a central role in the resistance to Chinese investment. The panel, which is led by the Treasury Department and made up of representatives from multiple agencies, has the authority to block foreign acquisitions of U.S. companies for national security reasons; it has effectively killed several acquisitions linked to Chinese buyers over the past year.

Stalling corporate deals

Broadcom said it was cooperating with CFIUS, saying it was “making the combined company a global leader in critical 5G and other technologies”. Qualcomm, in an earlier statement, said the review was a “very serious matter”.

In most cases, the panel weighs in after a deal is announced. With Qualcomm, CFIUS is taking a proactive role and investigating before an acquisition agreement has even been signed.

CFIUS has stymied several deals in the past year.

MoneyGram, the money transfer company, and Ant Financial, the Chinese electronics payment company, called off their merger in January, citing regulatory concerns of CFIUS. If the deal had gone through, Ant Financial would have had access to reams of financial data, which could have created security problems.

Last year, the White House blocked a Chinese-backed investor from buying Lattice Semiconductor, which is a supplier to the U.S. government. China Venture Capital Fund Corp., which was part of the investment group, is owned by state-backed entities.

Technology companies are stuck in the middle of the fight between the United States and China. While there are concerns about Chinese encroachment, the industry also recognises that such deals are the price for entry to the world’s second-largest economy.

[SSridhar]

China pushing to be more active in region, global diplomacy - PTI, Economic Times

China wants an eight-nation group it and Russia have dominated for its two-decade existence to be more active in regional and global diplomacy and will push to facilitate that at the group's next summit, foreign minister Wang Yi said {One reason for this move, apart from of course giving itself a legitimate fig-leaf to intervene in regional affairs, is to shackle India's hands} today.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation has a "bounden duty to maintain peace and stability in our region and beyond," Wang told reporters at a news conference held on the fringes of the ceremonial legislature's annual meeting.

He said China would work with the other members to help the group "meet international expectations, take a clearer stand on major international and regional issues and play a more active role in regional cooperation and global economic governance."

China will host the SCO summit in the port of Qingdao in June. The group also includes Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, India and Pakistan, and China has sought to use it to ensure security along its Central Asian border, for example, by holding joint anti-terrorism exercises.

In international affairs, however, it has been a relative lightweight, and the new emphasis announced by Wang is in keeping with a Chinese push to broaden its global footprint with mega-projects such as the trillion-dollar Belt and Road infrastructure initiative.

Wang also emphasised what he called the key role played in China's more pro-active foreign policy by President Xi Jinping, who is likely to remain leader indefinitely after the legislature lifts presidential term limits.

"Since 2012, President Xi Jinping has been the chief architect of China's major country diplomacy. He was personally involved in the planning and conduct of head of state diplomacy, which by world acclaim has been brilliant," Wang said.

Xi has visited 57 countries and received a more than 110 foreign heads of state, Wang said, citing Xi's "leadership and charisma." Those visits and meetings that "go a long way toward deepening the world's understanding of China, enhancing China's profile and influence, and facilitating the solution of many global problems," he said.

On the Korean Peninsula, Wang claimed success for China's proposal for a "dual suspension" of North Korean nuclear activities in return for a suspension of South Korea-US war games.

"This proves that China's proposal of suspension for suspension was the right prescription for the problem and created basic conditions for the improvement of inter-Korean relations," Wang said.

Pyongyang's security concerns should be addressed in return for a pledge to denuclearise, he said.

Wang also indicated he expects more countries would cut formal ties with Taiwan, which China claims as its territory. China has been steadily increasing political, diplomatic and economic pressure on Taiwan to force President Tsai Ing-wen to endorse its contention that the self-governing island democracy is a part of China.

"To establish diplomatic relations with the government of the People's Republic of China that is the sole legal government to represent all China and conduct normal cooperation is apparently a right choice that conforms to the tide of times," Wang said.

[Prasad]

^^ such a treaty negotiated in private but suddenly signed in thimphu would also be a resounding slap on the dragons face

bhutan are a good people, good country. but the clash between the tiger and dragon has reached their door and they can no longer live in isolation....

There is already enough pressure within Bhutan on the govt to open up proper relations with PRC due to tourism pressure. Tour operators and the like salivate at the prospect of more money when PRC can bring in tourists by the 747-loads. Much like Maldives. PRC stopped all its tour operators from sending tourists to SoKo at the height of their disagreement last year. Its big bucks for a small country like Bhutan.

[SSridhar]

NPC 2018: China's resolve to protect peace, stability in South China Sea unshakeable, says Wang Yi - Straits Times

China's resolve to protect peace and stability in the South China Sea is unshakeable, Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Thursday (March .

"China's position is firm and consistent," said Mr Wang.

Speaking on the sidelines of an annual meeting of China's parliament, Mr Wang said some outside forces were trying to muddy the waters in the disputed region.

China follows a responsible approach to the South China Sea issue, taking into account interests of the Chinese people, historical facts, regional peace and the international rule of law, he added.

China has repeatedly accused countries outside the region - generally a reference to the United States and Japan - of trying to provoke trouble in the South China Sea while China and its neighbours are trying to resolve the matter through diplomacy.

[shiv]

End game - add Bhutan into the string of pearls.

We give up independent thought when we use existing clichés and rhetorical constructs like "string of pearls" without applying thought or further probing. String of pearls is an overused expression among writers of "strategic articles" who simply copy paste from earlier articles, the lay media and we the public. I am of course in the process of making a little explanatory video of this "string of pearls" and it is high time we stopped using this idiotic expression that ranks right up there with "Aryan invasion" and "Islamophobia" in putting us in a position of disadvantage and fear - merely by the use of language rather than reality.

When the expression "string of pearls" was first used it was coined by a fellow called Booz (apparently) - and China farted loudly enough for people to think that China would have a string of bases, allies and friends starting from Sihanoukville in Cambodia, to the Kra isthmus canal via Thailand, Coco Island, Sittwe, Hambantota, Maldives and Gwadar. The idea is designed to cause diarrhoea among Indians and great respect for China among westerners.

In actual fact it is of zero practical use for the Chinese in peacetime and no use in war. Every single one of those pearls is either totally fictitious, yet to develop, unusable as a base, or development is far less than was promised with the Chinese propensity for farting loudly at Indians who stand in attitude of supplication with palms upward, musharraf downward - ready to collapse, trembling with fear at every fart from China. This needs to change.

China is growing. So is India. The US is beginning to show self - doubt and Europe is receding. The game will never be static but blind dhoti shivering and attribution of great victories to China and constant self flagellation is unnecessary. At every juncture we must recall that if China has relaations with any nation - so do we - be it Burma, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Afghanistan, Seychelles or Vietnam. The idea that a given nation will blindly go to the "other side" is naive and simplistic. We will have both diplomatic victories and defeats. May I digress for a bit to point out that Gwadar is inoperational as far as CPEC goes but slothful lazy inefficient corrupt useless loser India has a working port in Eyeran

[nam]

We are not a threat to any of these smaller nation, nor we plan to occupy them. Morever in another 10 years we could be a 5 trillion economy.

Why would these nation want to be on "Chinese orbit" and take on a country with 5 trillion economy? For no apparent reason, they will be crushed in a fight between two large and powerful countries. They know a 5 trillion India can cause lot of damage, even if the entire PLA is stationed in their country.

It is not like choosing between Pak & India.

[panduranghari]

U.S., China battle it out for dominance in technology - Cecilia Kang, Alan Rappeport NYTimes
]

http://www.businessinsider.com/japans-e ... 013-1?IR=T
Do check the link for multiple images of Japanese takeover of USA.

[A Deshmukh]

The so-called pearls also gives us juicy indefensible war-time targets.
we just need to do some extra work - tracking each and every asset moving in and out, which we can easily do with our satellites and planes/UAVs/sonars. I am sure, we are already noting down their magnetic and sonar signatures.

[shiv]

The so-called pearls also gives us juicy indefensible war-time targets.

Not just war. There is nothing there for peacetime for the PLAN - apart perhaps from a radar/listening post in Coco. Operated by the Burmese. Sittwe has nothing - but nearby Kyaukpyu has a deep water port for Chinese tankers and a refinery. It is not clear whether a pipeline has been completed via Burma into China - but the much touted development has not taken place and the plan is in dispute with local opposition - apart from better India-Burma relations.

Hambantota has some development but is a dead port. And the Chinese navy will not get it anyway.

Gwadar too is a dead port and there is nothing for the PLAN and the much touted plans for Gwadar are not progressing.

If you recall discussions on BRF the general trend has been to curse India and Indian inefficiency over Chabahar port and a wide-eyed open mouthed awe at what the Chinese are doing in Gwadar. What are they doing? Nothing much as far as I can tell.

There is nothing in the Maldives currently but we psych ourselves out by saying "Oh the Chinese build stuff lightning fast". Oh yeah? Check out promises made for Gwadar and Kyaukpyu and where its all going. The Chinese make big promises and when the money does not start coming in they simply drop the project priority.

We have got accustomed to browning our pants first, crying next and not thinking at all. Our "strategists" simply get interns to research from existing articles and copy paste the same old shit. No one wants to review and reassess. Everyone sits pretty in his think tank and spouts the same old crap. Even the so called "respected" strategists - some of who are now losing all respect from me because they are showing themselves to be dumbasses.

[Philip]

China's global footprint is simply staggerkng.A trillion earmarked for Africa in general and billions for S.Am and elsewhere.It has ovef 430 thinktanks, some v. highly rated and hundreds of Confucious Centres, its Brit. Council, Alliance Francaise ,Goethe Inst. , models.More people worldwide ard learning Chinese than all the rest put together!
The speed with which it is also implementing its infra projects is amazing.

Let's face it.The current attitudd of the Indian establishment is simply unable to deal with the Chinese juggernaut.We are so timid even with gambits like Chahbahar , worried about Uncle Sam, that we are being left decades behind the Chin imperialist global advance, something never before seen from the east since the invasion of Europe by Genghiz Khan.This time the invasion by Emperor Xi Gins, is an economic war, ousting western and US interests , sweeping them aside like flyswatting.It is so successful that a piddly tyrant in Male shows India the upturned finger becoz he has strong Chin backing.

India seems to have no strategy in dealing with the Chiese threat as our land-locked mindset and Paki- oriented foreign policy has stunted our efforts.Our recent foreign outreach campaign led by PM Modi is very laudable, but in the follow up, by babudom, does it smack of more style than substance? A simple comparison will bear this out.

Meanwhile back in " Mother India" , rival Indian fringe elements are going to war over desecration of statues of their idelogical icons.At this rate, China need not fear India.It simply has to sail past India in the IOR , drive past POK and Pak to Gwadar and wave goodbye to our netas and babus and warring populace.The Great Game oc the 21st century appears already lost!

[ArjunPandit]

^^i am getting some facebook ads on fb to invest in Gwadar port commercial plots or something like that for $100K. There is an investor's summit organized by chinese in nyc penn station sometime soon (was too bored to look it). If I had that much money to spare I would have certainly given baloch independence movement. WIll try to upload screenshots on the weekend.
My sense is chinese dont want to be the only loser, but want to involve other americans so that the govt is not completely inimical to the cpec/obor/bri whatever its name is.

[pankajs]

There was a time when Unkill's "global footprint is simply staggering" ... oops ... it still is.

If Influence, once established does not go away, then why fear, Unkill is here. After all our jingos don't fear an American base in IOR do they?
OTOH, if influence waxes and wane, then this Chinese influence too shall pass one day. So why fear?

[shiv]

^^
True - the US has done so much "bad stuff" against us - but we still follow them and use their language and their idioms and their views to cuss China. We think like children caught between 2 adults with no independent thought - simply following the one adult whom we think is mummy - the west. China is no bunny, but neither is the US. We have strike our own path but the thought cannot arise when our inputs come from the west in Engllsh language media.

[shiv]

We are so timid even with gambits like Chahbahar , worried about Uncle Sam, that we are being left decades behind the Chin imperialist global advance,

As I see it - you are saying that we are worried about the west (US) and that we should worry about China. But the US are as big or bigger than China in being the local bu$tards so being wary of them is a sensible thing to do. Methinks we worry too much about China and too little about the US. We have to play a balancing act. Neither really means well. Bashing ourselves as you have done is completely pointless - like beating one's breast in inconsolable grief.

[pankajs]

This is for beepul who have hire than Himalayas and deepel than Oceanic faith in the rise of Xina.

I swear I did not go looking for any news on China. This just popped up in my news stream just as I was about to switch off for the day.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-0 ... 025452.htm
Xinhua Headlines: China champions peace, development, will not replace U.S.

On whether China posed a challenge to the United States, Wang was clear. Brushing off such anxieties, he said China had "no need or intention of replacing the United States" in its international role, and that it was "fundamentally wrong" for anyone to say that China would replace America's role in the world.

See ...

If you trust Xina then Unkill is and will remain the top dong worldwide.
If you trust Unkill then your IOR with an American base is safe for you.

This is exactly what I was suggesting a few posts back ...

[Avtar Singh]

Can we include all this crying and hysteria about chinese aircraft carriers in the Indian Ocean.

They should be considered an opportunity not a threat.... Is there not some supposed very wise (sarcasm) chinese saying about this, every crisis opportunity blah blah

In a conflict at the borders apart from long range missiles India cannot hit the suburbs of Beijing.. I posit that sinking an aircraft carrier is the equivalent of being able to bomb the suburbs of a major city.
The loss will hurt deeply.

String of chinese t#rds and chinese aircraft carriers should all be welcomed and India should gear up to hammer them all in the event of conflict.

Build up the indigenous military production to accomplish the above.

[Peregrine]

Indian elephant, Chinese dragon must dance together: Chinese foreign minister

BEIJING: China and India should shed their mental inhibitions and manage differences to enhance bilateral ties, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Thursday and insisted that even the Himalayas cannot stop the two countries from friendly exchanges if there is political trust.

Wang's remarks on Sino-India relations came during his annual press conference on the sidelines of the ongoing parliamentary session.

Asked how China views relations with India this year after turbulence in ties in 2017 due to a number of issues including the Dokalam standoff, Wang said, "Despite some tests and difficulties, the China-India relationship continues to grow".

Bilateral ties were affected by a number of issues last year, including the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, China blocking efforts at the UN to list Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammed chief Masood Azhar as a global terrorist as well as India's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group.

Troops of India and China were locked in a 73-day-long standoff in Dokalam. The standoff ended on August 28 after the Chinese military stopped road building close to the strategic Chicken Neck corridor in an area claimed by Bhutan.

Wang, however, said the two countries must shed mental inhibitions, manage differences and meet each other half way.

"China is upholding its rights and legitimate interests and taking care to preserve the relationship with India," he said.

"Chinese and Indian leaders have developed a strategic vision for the future of our relations. The Chinese dragon and Indian elephant must not fight each other but dance with each other," he said.

"If China and India are united, one plus one will become eleven instead of two," he said.

Wang said the international situation is experiencing its biggest change in a century and China and India must do everything to emphasise this and support each other and avoid mutual suspicion and attrition.

He said mutual trust is the most precious commodity in the China-India relations

"With political trust, not even the Himalayas can stop us from friendly exchanges. Without it, not even level land can bring us together," he said.

"A shared understanding far outstrip our differences. Our common interests far outweigh our frictions. China is willing and ready to inherit and take forward our traditional friendship and be a friend and partner of Indian people.

"I hope the two sides will be free from mental inhibitions and meet each other halfway. Let us replace suspicion with trust, manage differences with dialogue and build a future with cooperation," he said.

Wang reacted strongly to a question whether the Indo-Pacific strategy being furthered by India, the US, Japan and Australia will affect China's Belt and Road Initiative (BRI).

He said there was "no shortage of headline grabbing ideas" but they were "like the foam on the sea" that "gets attention but will soon dissipate".

Contrary to claims made by some academics and media outlets that the strategy is aimed at containing China, the four countries have made it clear that it targets no one, Wang said.

"I hope they mean what they say," he said.

"Let us not forget the BRI has received the support of over 100 countries. Nowadays stroking a new Cold War is out of sync with the times and inciting confrontation will find no market," he said.

Touted as Chinese President Xi Jinping's ambitious project, the BRI focuses on improving connectivity and cooperation among Asian countries, Africa, China and Europe.

The BRI also includes the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) which India opposed as it goes through Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

Cheers

[ashish raval]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 221055.cms

Looks like quad is already giving some heartburn. I think quad should commit to 25 ships each with smaller nations to commit 5-10 ships each Indo Pacific region with 100s of ships dotting around.

[Philip]

The US is not nibbling at our borders and like pirates grabbing islands in the ICS.It has also made huge inroads in establishing bases in IOR littoral nations using the debt trap strategy which will pose a major mil threat to India.

The US on the other hand retained its base at DG, arguably a threat to India, but the CW has ended a long time ago and the US has not in the IOR expanded its mil footprint, in fact has attempted to withdraw its forces from the troublespots, but have yet to eliminate the enemy, jihadis of various colours incl.ISIS and the remnants of Al Q.

Our timidity at not dealing with China at least economically, where the trade gap is around $60B(!),
and not using our milforce to back up our diplomacy is smacking of the defeatist mentality that saw India succumb to foreign invasion centuries ago, and just to remind one, it happened through the maritime route when the Europeans sailed to India and subjugated us for 500 years.

[kit]

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... g-its-time
Bloomberg View has as a columnist James Stavridis, the former four-star admiral who was the supreme allied commander of NATO forces, and he wrote a long column on the pluses and minuses of this latest decision, for China and the U.S. One thing he predicted was that if we have an "Emperor Xi," that this will give China some short-term, asymmetric advantages vis-a-vis the U.S. For example, it’s an assuredness of consistency of policy, as opposed to democracies which change leaders and change policies and kind of whipsaw back and forth. Also, in China, the same people who are planning the ambitious strategic plans today can carry them out over the decades ahead.

[kit]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 221055.cms

Looks like quad is already giving some heartburn. I think quad should commit to 25 ships each with smaller nations to commit 5-10 ships each Indo Pacific region with 100s of ships dotting around.

Australia is the wild card in the quad

[SSridhar]

. . . After all our jingos don't fear an American base in IOR do they? . . .

Not true because that is facetious. We feared it once. We used to express that frequently and vociferously. We feared even the VOA setting up a station in Ceylon.

Things are changed now. We have a deep military-to-military relationship with the US. We have increasingly complex Malabar, Shatrujeet, Yudh Abhyas & Vajra Prahar exercises annually, apart from taking part in Red Flag. We share intel. We buy frontline military stuff and the US has no curbs selling anything to us either. We have LEMOA and other two are on the way. We are strategic defence partners. We have come a long way . . . It is irrelevant whether such a relationship is good or bad for India.

OTOH, if influence waxes and wane, then this Chinese influence too shall pass one day. So why fear?

That's a philosophical excuse strutted out by lazy, incompetent nations resigned to their fate. The question is what in the meanwhile and how do we wax our own influence.

[pankajs]

. . . After all our jingos don't fear an American base in IOR do they? . . .

Not true because that is facetious. We feared it once. We used to express that frequently and vociferously. We feared even the VOA setting up a station in Ceylon.

Things are changed now. We have a deep military-to-military relationship with the US. We have increasingly complex Malabar, Shatrujeet, Yudh Abhyas & Vajra Prahar exercises annually, apart from taking part in Red Flag. We share intel. We buy frontline military stuff and the US has no curbs selling anything to us either. We have LEMOA and other two are on the way. We are strategic defence partners. We have come a long way . . . It is irrelevant whether such a relationship is good or bad for India.

OTOH, if influence waxes and wane, then this Chinese influence too shall pass one day. So why fear?

That's a philosophical excuse strutted out by lazy, incompetent nations resigned to their fate. The question is what in the meanwhile and how do we wax our own influence.

"We feared it once" ... "Things are changed now".

That is exactly why I said "OTOH, if influence waxes and wane, then this Chinese influence too shall pass one day. So why fear?"

If my preposition where false then China, with its *meritocracy based system*, would have ruled the world from like 2000 years back. Also, the Chinese empire(s) of yore would have only expanded and not "Waxed and waned".

IMHO, this principle was understood by Deng Xiaoping when he is supposed to have stated “Hide your strength, bide your time, never take the lead.”, especially the "bide your time" part. Perhaps Deng too was lazy and resigned to the fate.

[SSridhar]

IMHO, this principle was understood by Deng Xiaoping when he is supposed to have stated “Hide your strength, bide your time, never take the lead.”, especially the "bide your time" part. Perhaps Deng too was lazy and resigned to the fate.

No, but at that time that Deng made this statement, the US was on its side. China faced no enemies. Nobody had surrounded China trying to strangulate its sphere of influence and/or made its intentions known of hegemonically ruling the world.

What Deng meant was to 're-establish the Middle Kingdom' and then expand it dramatically all over the world rather than being confined to the peripheries which once it was.

We never intended to 'rule' the world as China had always wished for, especially Deng and now Xi. Deng was making plans for an eventual assault on the world (politically, economically and militarily) and that was the meaning of 'Bide for time' and 'rise silently'. We are currently fighting the Chinese on our own turf and in our very backyard. That's the difference.

Added later: 'Then' and 'Now' is OK, but keeping quiet that somehow things will sort themselves out is not.